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Saturday, April 14, 2018

Show some faith

I understand that there can be utility in holding someone accountable. But doesn't the God-Emperor come in for enough criticism already that he doesn't need to hear it all the time from both sides?
Prominent supporters of President Trump are expressing skepticism over his decision to launch airstrikes against Syria, slamming the move as overly aggressive and unnecessary.

Fox News hosts Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham both questioned Trump’s decision Friday to launch strikes in retaliation for a chemical weapons attack last weekend that the U.S. has attributed to the Syrian government.

Carlson noted the move was inconsistent with the president’s message during his 2016 campaign, and Ingraham said she found that intervention in other countries could be risky, as shown in the Iraq War, according to the Daily Beast.

Michael Savage, a prominent conservative radio host and author, tweeted that “sad warmongers hijacking our nation” following news of the strike.

Michael Savage@ASavageNation
 We lost. War machine  bombs syria. No evidence Assad did it. Sad warmongers hijacking our nation

Infowars’s Alex Jones broke down in tears while speaking out against the military action. “If he had been a piece of crap from the beginning, it wouldn’t be so bad,” Jones said of Trump. “We’ve made so many sacrifices and now he’s crapping all over us. It makes me sick."

Conservative commentator Ann Coulter also shared her opposition to the strike, retweeting a series of other conservative or right-wing figures who condemned the move and resurfacing Trump's own past tweets against military action in Syria.

And far-right figures Mike Cernovich and Laura Loomer also ripped Trump over the military strike in Syria.

Mike Cernovich@Cernovich
At least I won’t feel bad when he gets impeached.
The ironic thing is that I am probably more anti-war, and have been for much longer, than any of these right-wing figures. I'm not bothered by a few missile strikes. I don't believe they will lead to boots on the ground, any more than all the previous missile strikes did.

Everything I have seen about the situation indicates that Trump is resisting the neocons and their war machine, not giving into it. I really don't understand why none of these folks, of whom most I generally think well, aren't able to do the same.

Be patient. Don't react. And don't assume you necessarily know what the President is doing.

Labels: ,

214 Comments:

1 – 200 of 214 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Andrew April 14, 2018 8:42 PM  

Yeah, I'm watching and waiting and drawing no firm conclusions as yet.

Blogger Jack Ward April 14, 2018 8:44 PM  

Stand with Trump! Keep the faith and support the man. Could any of you do better? I mean, look at the challenge. For awhile there, early during this last year of GE's presidency, I too, had some doubts. As Vox has preached often wait and see. I learned that lesson and it can be uncomfortable at times. Keep in your comfort zone; it's the swamp that needs to stay uncomfortable. Lets help them be really out of sorts by being like Jackson in civil war 1, steady as a stone wall in our support for the man. It's the least we can do; he's having to take the heat and still think of all the ways to keep winning.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 8:45 PM  

If you want some encouraging news, read Conservative Treehouse. Looks like shit is finally happening to drain the swamp.

Blogger SouthRon April 14, 2018 8:52 PM  

You know Jack. I was thinking the same thing earlier today. Were I in his position, with all the opposition, could I or would I do any better. Hell no. When I consider my own mistakes and sins on a daily basis, I'm sure I'd screw up far worse.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 14, 2018 8:54 PM  

Does it help Trump to point to all the fussing and frothing, and be able to say that his base is mad as hell and not going to take it anymore?

I keep saying "hold his feet to the fire, not because he doesn't want to do what's right, but because it helps him do what's right."

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma April 14, 2018 8:56 PM  

Trump campaigned on "bombing the shit out of ISIS", setting up safe zones for fake refugees, "take the oil", confronting countries like Iran & N.Korea, stopping proliferation of WMD, and that we would go to war for our most bestest ally Israel (who has actually attacked the USA, unlike Iran, Syria, Korea).
All of that requires military action.

Trump also said no more wasting our blood & $Trillions$ on stupid wars based on lies, such as Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Interesting how so many people only hear & see what they want to believe.
Trump needs to hear feedback, but people need to drop the hysteria until something really serious happens, especially those who have been duped multiple times by the "Trump sold us out! It's all over!!" meme.

How can people be so wrong so many times, and still not figure it out? because it's emotionally painful to admit the truth and that they are not nearly as smart or informed as they believe.

Blogger Aeoli April 14, 2018 8:57 PM  

The stress of fighting a culture war isn't for everybody. Hell, I'm pretty beat and my situation is quite tame compared to the Don.

In only news, I took Jordan Peterson's Big 5 test and came up "exceptionally impolite". And I thought, it's kind of rude to just come out and tell somebody that.

Blogger Lazarus April 14, 2018 9:02 PM  

Heard a good term today: Snowflake Patriots

This is what happens when you involve civilians in a military operation. It is like trying to organize Libertarians into a politically effective force.

A lot of people have their heart in the right place, but They are not the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree.
There are many who are worthy, and attend to the tasks they have been given, but there is so much lunacy amongst those who think they need to have a say, never mind all the disinformation and subversion.

Look, this operation could fail, but its all you got right now.

Stay calm, be brave, wait for the signs.

Blogger lazlo azavaar April 14, 2018 9:05 PM  

Our feminized cultures have taught us nothing but female emotional hysterical thinking for the last fifty years.
Long past time for stoic men to make a comeback.

Blogger Peaceful Poster April 14, 2018 9:08 PM  

Prominent, so-called "right wing" women like Tara McCarthy and Cassandra Fairbanks have turned on the GE. Interesting that both originally came from the left. Cassandra was a Bernie supporter and Tara was some sort of vegan freak.

Never trust women, especially converted ones.

However, Ann Coulter deserves a little more latitude. Although she criticizes Trump harshly sometimes, I sense it's more for show. Deep down, I sense she's still with Trump.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 9:11 PM  

WRE

Blogger Peaceful Poster April 14, 2018 9:13 PM  

Indeed.

Blogger Quilp April 14, 2018 9:13 PM  

I really don't understand the emotional reaction to the missile lobbing. Trump, May, & Macron bombed the arse end of the world, and people are acting like he sent ICBM's over the poles. We are all a bit frustrated over the agenda being tied up, but bombing Syria is hardly reason to jump ship.

Blogger themightypuck April 14, 2018 9:18 PM  

Moldbug explains everything. Trump is betwixt the Devil and the deep blue State. You only have so much room to maneuver in DC if Foggy Bottom (and Langley) is putting everything on the line to destroy you. You need to make friends and DoD is the only game in town.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 14, 2018 9:19 PM  

Peaceful Poster wrote:Although she criticizes Trump harshly sometimes, I sense it's more for show.

Pouting, holding ones breath until one turns blue and flouncing off the Trump Train is the Retarded NeverTrumper Way.

Saying, loud and clear, that this is not what we voted for is a different thing.

Insisting that we will need someone much more extreme in 2024 - or perhaps 2020 - might also be helpful.

We want Trump to be able to point to that sort of talk, and say ``You can deal with me now, or you can deal with the Alt-Right extremist soon.''

In the mean time, everybody quit obsessing over Trump and start working to primary your incumbent.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook April 14, 2018 9:22 PM  

This is why I like reading your blog.

Anonymous Anonymous April 14, 2018 9:22 PM  

I am probably more anti-war, and have been for much longer, than any of these right-wing figures. I'm not bothered by a few missile strikes.

In what world is a missile strike not an act of war?

Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war? If the answer is yes, you have to be consistent.

Using military action against a state that is not an imminent threat is not acceptable. That is what being anti-war means. That is closer to the standard Trump ran on than what (((they))) have now convinced him of.

Trump responds well to criticism from his base. Nobody is going to hurt his feelings by criticizing him.

What's true is that he's wasting political capital on things he said he wouldn't do, instead of on things he would. Gorsuch is nice, but most of his lower appointments are just more of the same. Bombing Syria, even for a show of force, is not what I was voting for.

Blogger Howard Stone April 14, 2018 9:22 PM  

Trump 2020. For all his faults, he’s our best option to buy a few years to push back against the NWO. Besides, what do we have to lose?

Blogger Rahul S April 14, 2018 9:24 PM  

Vox,

You don't think that the FBI raid of Cohen has freaked out Trump & made him act irrationally?

Blogger VD April 14, 2018 9:24 PM  

In what world is a missile strike not an act of war?

An act of war is not a war. It's just a single act, one that costs the USA relatively nothing and does relatively little harm.

Blogger VD April 14, 2018 9:25 PM  

You don't think that the FBI raid of Cohen has freaked out Trump & made him act irrationally?

No, I do not.

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:27 PM  

There is much evidence that these sites were Black Ops sites used by black hat C*A/MI5 people to keep the war going, and the Barzeh site was known for sure to to be run by C*A/MI5, and even included some North Koreans as late as the beginning of February. The people killed there were mainly Hezbollah and Iranians.

So, the "killers" were likely black-hat Americans and Brits, but they bombed their main resources.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 9:27 PM  

It's because it's so damned important to Russians. I'm telling you, they WILL start a nuclear war over this, if you poke the Bear enough. As it turns out, according to TASS the Russian news agency, the US ambassador actually talked about this with the Russians in advance (contrary to what was said in public) which is why no Russian targets, nor Russian-controlled territory, was bombed. But that is the reason for the freak-out. Because this will absolutely lead to nuclear holocaust.

Just look at it from their perspective. They've been training the people in Moscow for nuclear war for years. They know they will get to bomb shelters in a reasonably orderly fashion, and take their potassium iodide pills when they are instructed to, with the public alert system (which we also have, and test every Monday).

What about USA? Well, just now there is an article on the DEFCON website that much of USA's nuclear alert systems probably don't even work. GREAT JOB, DEFCON! Just the thing to reveal to Russia. *Golf clap*

Again, consider the situation. They know that their equipment cannot handle a conventional war with USA. Their next generation jet, for example, only starts deliveries next year. But what they CAN do, is shoot down all satellites so that any following conflicts become second generation warfare (for which they are very well equipped) and shoot their nukes. At present, they are losing the economic war and being squeezed harder and harder. They can see where this is going. But they have one card, such that if they use it, it looks like they are going to win. That card is a use-it-or-lose-it card.

This is not the time to give the Russians a plausible excuse to amp up their nuclear drills in Moscow. Because one time, it may not be a drill. You'll see them go to their shelters twenty times, and it will lull you into thinking nothing on it. Then, on the twenty first time they are in their shelters, it'll be a different story.

Blogger MB April 14, 2018 9:27 PM  

I'm not anti-war and don't see being anti-war as particularly virtuous; it's like being anti-hurricanes. Nevertheless, I think this is an attempt to discredit Trump (though, as stated, it doesn't discredit him in my eyes).
Trump's election brought to the polls a significant number of people who vote very rarely and won him the election. Some important right-wing constituencies that hadn't been represented at the national level gave Trump a chance, for the first time in ages. Now leftists are using smart vote suppression tactics to make sure they tune out and never vote again.
A whole host of these staged (if not in the execution, then clearly in the presentation) incidents are about confirming these shy voters' belief that voting never changes anything. Even better if they go third-party or resort to violent actions afterward, due to disappointment, so that they can be crushed like the Southerners and other poor whites were in the 60s and 70s.
Many of these people are religiously fundamentalist, hence the stuff about Trump's infidelity and promiscuity. Many others are isolationists, hence the incidents meant to portray Trump as a warmonger. Others are just shy and withdrawn and dislike scandals, hence the attempt at portraying Trump as controversial and surrounded by scandals. Others just like winning, hence the constant attempts to portray Trump as a loser. Etc., etc..
And the best part of it, I suspect, from the leftists' point of view? Even if none of the allegations sticks at a rational level, they cast a shadow of doubt, impurity, and dishonor over Trump at the emotional level. Since (as psychological research famously showed some years ago) rightists care about purity, honor, faithfulness, and other such values, to an irrational extent from a leftist point of view (i.e. this stuff didn't work when the right used it against Clinton), it is enough to sully his reputation by these endless scandals. Throw enough mud and something will stick. If rightists merely feel a pull in their chest when voting for Trump, a strange reluctance, if they think Trump is "tainted" and "dirty", the aim will have been achieved.
Now from the beginning Trump made it clear that he doesn't "care" about his reputation, scandals, or "traditional values", indeed is semi-contemptuous of them, which is paradoxically probably the only thing that's stopping his more nervous conservative supporters from deserting him right now en masse and choosing the "Benedict option" their temperament predisposes them to.
Still, it looks like this will be a long battle.

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:31 PM  

18. Howard Stone

Our lives, as Hillary may have already started using the FEMA caamps.

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:33 PM  

The MSM had been showing dead children for a week, and even though we never watch such stupid crap, many still do.

Do I believe there were people killed there? Yep,

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:35 PM  

26. tuberman

but I believe they were killed by Black Ops people from the international Deep State.

Blogger Aeoli Pera April 14, 2018 9:36 PM  

ages345 wrote:I am probably more anti-war, and have been for much longer, than any of these right-wing figures. I'm not bothered by a few missile strikes.

In what world is a missile strike not an act of war?

Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war?


I think we could all find it in our hearts to forgive that little indiscretion.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 14, 2018 9:36 PM  

Mocking the Global Police act and its useless perhaps counter productive Whack-A-Mole strategy would be a better use of time.

Blogger Avalanche April 14, 2018 9:37 PM  

Dark Lord: "I really don't understand why none of these folks, of whom most I generally think well, aren't able to do the same."

Uh, 1 or 2 SDs? (At least!?)

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 9:37 PM  

Lenin published a book entitled "Two Steps Forward, One Step Back". In it, he chided other communists (probably had them killed eventually for being little bitchmaid commies) for freaking out every time there seemed to be a reverse or failure in the march to Communism. Lenin wrote the book to argue the strategic value of being flexible and giving up a little bit of ground now in order to gain more ground later.

Guess what, Vladimir Lenin was right. Take a page out of Lenin's book, better yet read the whole thing, and take what's useful from it. Can Trump do exactly what he wants all the time? No because his enemy is smart and resourceful and fights back.

Any of you wrestlers? Martial artists? You, the people freaking out or losing faith, think about the difference between practice or sparring and actual combat. Can you exert your will effortlessly upon your opponent when you want to? No, because he's trying to do the same thing to you. If your opponent is four years old, maybe you can. (Except maybe for Matthew with those noodles for arms. Come lift with me!) Anyway, read any book of strategy and you'll see the same concept. You can't always win or be successful without any setbacks.

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:39 PM  

Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war?

Although, NY or LA would be better, we might grant a medal.

Blogger tz April 14, 2018 9:39 PM  

I don't consider the attack Syria-us, but please do the recision an defund planned parenthood.

Blogger Andrew April 14, 2018 9:42 PM  

It's always good when the warhawks/globalists like McCain feel the need to stipulate that although the strikes are a good thing, we need a broader strategy in order to truly succeed in the Middle East. This shows that the enemy doesn't know what Trump is thinking and aren't in control.

There is much evidence that these sites were Black Ops sites used by black hat C*A/MI5 people to keep the war going, and the Barzeh site was known for sure to to be run by C*A/MI5, and even included some North Koreans as late as the beginning of February. The people killed there were mainly Hezbollah and Iranians.

Q is telling us that Trump genuinely wants and intends to withdraw troops from Syria shortly but that Trump announced it publicly the way he did the other week in order to draw out the remaining Deep State operatives in the region to reveal their bases of operation. Which is apparently exactly what happened with the chemical attack last weekend and it was those locations that were hit last night.

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:42 PM  

Besides, the God-Emperor is allowing the states to legalize pot, so there is that!

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 9:44 PM  

I'm honestly surprised more people aren't talking about that, Potato Man.

Blogger Iron Spartan April 14, 2018 9:46 PM  

the standard for the Right is perfection in all things.

The standard for the left is anything that might advance the cause of global governance even a small bit is ok.

Blogger artensoll April 14, 2018 9:46 PM  

I stand with Jack Ward.

Blogger Mocheirge April 14, 2018 9:55 PM  

@aeoli

I might grumble a bit about NYC or LA not being chosen.

Besides, the better comparison would be "if Putin bombed London." That's hardly an act of war against the US. If anything, that would be an act of war against Pakistan.

Blogger Out of Nod April 14, 2018 9:56 PM  

These prominent supporters are also journalists. They thrive on getting the scoop, often via social media, which doesn't quite allow for sitting back and waiting for all the information to come out. I think this is one of the greatest drawbacks of being involved with social media as it tends to make people react to the whatever is new and fresh. These people will come around.

Meanwhile, I'll keep praying for Trump and trust that he knows what he is doing.

Blogger tuberman April 14, 2018 9:57 PM  

It's my understanding that McCain and his people brought poison gas back into that area using Black Ops in 2013, so it was his people.

Blogger Cetera April 14, 2018 9:57 PM  

Whatsamatter, kid? You wanna live forever?

Blogger James Dixon April 14, 2018 9:58 PM  

> Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war?

We didn't launch missles at Moscow. This is more like, if Putin did it to Havana, would we say it was an act of war? Sure. Against Cuba, not against us. Would we act? Almost certainly, but we would not start WWIII over it.

Russia will sit back, evaluate what was done, and take what they consider appropriate action at the right time. The won't start WWIII either.

Blogger Dave April 14, 2018 9:58 PM  

Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war?

I think we could all find it in our hearts to forgive that little indiscretion.


Some of us would think he did the world a solid.

Blogger Lazarus April 14, 2018 10:00 PM  

@23 Markku

C'mon man. Preparing to survive an all-out nuclear war is useless. Even if you survive the initial strikes, you will wish you had not. Russians must know this also.

Potassium iodide is only good for radioiodine. Cesium 137 is more lethal with a half- life of 30 years, which parallels potassium chemistry,and readily " taken into the blood of animals and men and may be incorporated into tissue. "

The whole idea of fallout shelters for the general population fizzled out by the late sixties.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:04 PM  

C'mon man. Preparing to survive an all-out nuclear war is useless.

That's the story. But what if the story is wrong? Already USA has concluded that there is no nuclear winter. What if the Russians have concluded that the fallout isn't as bad either? That it was just M.A.D. propaganda. Also, now we have fusion bombs. They just have a small fission nuke in them to trigger the explosion. That may change the calculus about surviving what comes after the war.

Blogger Billy April 14, 2018 10:06 PM  

The shadow govn is forcing Trumps hand. He lobbed a few missiles to get them off his back. I couple weeks ago Trump announced he was pulling troops out of Syria. Then his hotel catchs fire, the feds raid his attorney office and god knows what else. The shadow government was sending him a message. It reminds me of last year when he bombed Syria. Leading up to that it was Russia collusion 24/7 on the news show. Then he bombs Syria, talked about continuing with DACA, etc, all the shit we were against. Then for about three weeks they called off the dogs, there was no russia talk on cable news. Even Tucker comment about the absences of russia talk.
He is in a tough spot. The Zionists want war with Syria and eventually Russia. Hes trying to appease the enemy to buy time, while he drains the swamp.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:08 PM  

Also, I don't know what you picture in your mind when you hear the words "fallout shelter". It may be something entirely different than I. We use those shelters for recreational purposes. They have fields for almost every sport that you can play underground. They have tennis fields, decathlon fields, badminton, ping pong, squash, you name it. If you played any of these even as an occasional hobby as a kid, you will have been in the shelters a number of times. (For me it was badminton and ping pong). They are absolutely VAST underground complexes.

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 14, 2018 10:09 PM  

Someone brought up the point earlier about a lot of the reaction being more based on emotion than anything else, and that's been ingrained in our culture over the past 50 years. It's entirely accurate. That whole "if it feels good, do it" crap that's been a major contributor to the underlying problem.

Blogger Dave April 14, 2018 10:10 PM  

If I was to lose sleep over anything it would be an EMP strike, not nukes.

Blogger Lazarus April 14, 2018 10:12 PM  

@46
What if the Russians have NOT concluded the fallout is as bad?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 10:13 PM  

EMP YEP

Blogger Retrenched April 14, 2018 10:13 PM  

I keep saying "hold his feet to the fire, not because he doesn't want to do what's right, but because it helps him do what's right."

Agreed. I think it's important for Trumps base to let him know when he has disappointed them, rather than just mindlessly applaud everything he does like a bunch of Bill Mitchells.

At the same time the base needs to support Trump and give him due credit for the good things he does - and to not interpret every mistake he makes as some sort of unforgivable betrayal.

Blogger Lazarus April 14, 2018 10:15 PM  

Let me try that again.

What if the Russians have Not concluded that the fallout is Not as bad?

There, that's better.

Blogger saintCrispee April 14, 2018 10:17 PM  

Everyone is learning that Trump is no different. You can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth. In particular, you can't trust a thing that comes out of his mouth during a campaign. He said whatever he thought would get him elected or attention. In his case, not understanding how government works just made his untrustworthiness greater.

Blogger Lazarus April 14, 2018 10:17 PM  

@53

At the same time the base needs to support Trump and give him due credit for the good things he does - and to not interpret every mistake he makes as some sort of unforgivable betrayal.

Yah, but we do not really know enough to judge whether it was actually a mistake or a brilliant move.

Anonymous Anonymous April 14, 2018 10:18 PM  

If America’s major cities get nuked they will kill off most of our naggers and Jews.

Blogger cmbaileytstc April 14, 2018 10:22 PM  

I think it’s fairly obvious Trump didn’t want to do this at all, and I’m rooting for the day he imprisons his current captors for treason.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:22 PM  

Well, your only hope is basically that they have concluded this. But everything about our own behavior tells me that WE believe it can be survived. Remember, I have actually been in them numerous times. It is perfectly clear that they are designed to house us for at least a generation. Here's a picture of one field in one of them. Remember, they are absolutely full of them of every major sport.

https://im.mtv.fi/image/5590102/landscape16_9/1024/576/beac4fe9fc5df8d1222346b97c97f8be/tF/vaestonsuoja-4.jpg

Blogger VFM #7634 April 14, 2018 10:25 PM  

the standard for the Right is perfection in all things.

The standard for the left is anything that might advance the cause of global governance even a small bit is ok.


@37 Iron Spartan
The standard for the alt-right should therefore be like the left's in reverse. Let's not be like the conservatives!

Potassium iodide is only good for radioiodine. Cesium 137 is more lethal with a half- life of 30 years, which parallels potassium chemistry,and readily " taken into the blood of animals and men and may be incorporated into tissue. "

@45 Lazarus
Cesium is also washed out of the body by KI. It's related to potassium (as you just pointed out), and is a large ion like iodide.

Blogger Howard Stone April 14, 2018 10:28 PM  

Come 2024 who are we looking to who isn’t a globalist? Rand Paul? Another Trump? Hopefully by then we’ll have someone step up.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:29 PM  

If you're thinking about personal, one-family fallout shelters, then you probably cannot even imagine the scale. It's basically an underground city below every major Finnish city.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 14, 2018 10:30 PM  

Moldbug still has a blog? What?

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:31 PM  

If you think the Fallout video game series, you're thinking too small. Those were individual, small vaults. For us, every entrance in the city connects to the same complex.

Blogger Lazarus April 14, 2018 10:38 PM  

@64

So what about economics and food production?

Blogger MortemTyrannus April 14, 2018 10:38 PM  

If it was clear to all of the folks listed above, I would be extremely worried. IMHO, the fog of war is a good thing. He denuclearized north korea ffs. Give him a chance!

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:43 PM  

As it happens, I restocked on iodide just today. Here.

Me: Iodide pills please.
Pharmacist: Are these for constant use, OR--
Me: NOT constant use.
Pharmacist: Ok, here we go.

They were right next to the counter and the pharmacist didn't hesitate for a second.

It's clear that as a society, we are serious about surviving nuclear war.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:45 PM  

Lazarus: I don't know what the plan is for long term food production. I do know that we have water filtration systems, adequate to provide clean water for every Finn. From the army, I know that we have vast stockpiles of food. But long term, I don't know. Could be a military secret that I, as an ordinary soldier, was not allowed to know.

Blogger Clint April 14, 2018 10:48 PM  

Markku, I remember on one of my trips to Finland that we went swimming in one of those underground bunkers. Huge swimming pool, way underground. Never even considered it as a fallout, but I can see it.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:49 PM  

Yep, we sell the idea to the city councils who would otherwise be queasy about paying such amounts of money, as a public health thing.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 10:52 PM  

It's pretty clever because they have such cheap entrance fees compared to any above-ground sports facilities, that kids will play sports almost exclusively in them, unless they are so serious that they join a club. That will get them familiar with the idea of being underground from an early age, when they are still impressionable.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 14, 2018 10:53 PM  

Dave wrote:Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war?

I think we could all find it in our hearts to forgive that little indiscretion.


Some of us would think he did the world a solid.


The great thing about nuking DC is that, unlike a US carrier, there aren't 5,000 Americans in DC.

Markku wrote:Well, your only hope is basically that they have concluded this. But everything about our own behavior tells me that WE believe it can be survived.

Anyone who hasn't bought into the liberal brainwashing will believe that nuclear war is very survivable. Read Kresson Kearney's book, or Ten Feet to Survival for details, or just The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 10:58 PM  

Just being able to stay below ground level in a trench and avoid the blast shockwaves puts you ahead of the pack.

Unless it's an airburst. Then see you later, chump.

Blogger AdognamedOp April 14, 2018 11:01 PM  

What bothers me is how quickly Trump reacted to what was obviously a false flag. They got us to expend a billion dollars worth of military hardware by simply hosing down a bunch of kids.
And with ramadan around the corner I expect the head choppers will get stirred up. Britain and France took part in the operation and have let in to their countries an army infantry group of Syrian males, so they will likely get attacked again.
And I wouldn't dismiss a deep state staged attack on US soil to hurt Trump politically either.

Blogger Ceerilan April 14, 2018 11:02 PM  

I expect Trump to have a plan ready to drain the swamp regardless of whether war happens or not.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 11:07 PM  

Or, another alternative:
Russia: *Shoots down satellites, trigger Kessler syndrome*
USA: WTF?! WE'LL NUKE YOU!!!!1!
Russia: Do it faggots. We're in our Moscow-size shelter. How's your shelters?
USA: Ok, I guess we'll just try fighting the war without satellites.
Russia: That's what we figured.

Now, how's the balance of power now? How much of USA's equipment depends on satellites? What about the WW2 pieces of junk that Russia has?

Blogger Seth Schueler April 14, 2018 11:07 PM  

Off topic, where do I follow this Q person you gents speak of?

Blogger Bogey April 14, 2018 11:09 PM  

I haven't given up on Trump yet.

...by the way Art Bell has died.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 14, 2018 11:10 PM  

I see the airstrikes as a negotiating tactic. Trump can't appear weak or make empty threats since he'd lose the ability to use intimidation. He'd be forced to choose between giving up in disgrace or having to send troops. We know that making an enemy give up without resistance requires them to fear you so it's very possible these airstrikes are actually Trump's way of avoiding actual war. He has a lot of pressure domestically and from 'allies' to respond so he's got to thread this needle very carefully. Not quite sure what the people turning on Trump over this expect from him. He was never truly in ideological alignment with them, and he never claimed to be.

Blogger justaguy April 14, 2018 11:13 PM  

Why act as if the small missile attack is a big deal. Apparently the Russians were warned so they got out of the way and we spent $X millions to destroy far less than $X millions but get to assuage the hawks. Small costs overall and "we showed them" and nothing changes. The internal politics meant something had to be done and this appears to be a minor option. Lots of bluster, little damage, and Russia not engaged. Now he can try to capitalize on the repubs that wouldn't let him build the damn wall and maybe get it built.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 11:25 PM  

Rookies in Finnish army off to their first camp in the woods:
Officer: You can't bring your cell phones. According to our military doctrine, we go with the assumption that in five minutes after the war has started, Russia will have destroyed all above-ground communications. So, we're practicing for that.
*later*
Rookie: Our NATO partners do it this way too, right?
Officer: No, the Americans rely on their satellites.
Rookie: That's insane.
Officer: Weeeellll...

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 11:28 PM  

(In case someone wonders, we have two sets of military behavior. Outside the woods, it's pretty much like the American Army. But in the woods, you don't salute your officers and you talk to them like peers. You just do what they tell you. This is to make it as hard as possible for the Russians to figure out through observation, who is an officer. This is also when you learn the good stuff, because you can ask freely.)

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 14, 2018 11:34 PM  

Yeah the overreaction is starting to look silly.
I didn't like it. It upset me briefly, but it quickly faded since we've learned to always wait by this point. We have to keep things in perspective.
To have the entire legion of hell against him, and do half of what he's done, is why he's one of our best presidents so far.
It's possible he cut the neocons off at the curb. We'll see, asstated in the OP.

Blogger Julian Kowalczyk April 14, 2018 11:34 PM  

Quilp wrote:I really don't understand the emotional reaction to the missile lobbing. Trump, May, & Macron bombed the arse end of the world, and people are acting like he sent ICBM's over the poles. We are all a bit frustrated over the agenda being tied up, but bombing Syria is hardly reason to jump ship.

So it looks like the NEOCON Project for the new American Century is continuing forward. Either that or someone is wagging the dog's tail. That's all we need, more White people killing each other with a Big Big war.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 14, 2018 11:36 PM  

What are the physical standards like? In terms of running, push-ups, etc.?
Also are the light infantry methods the same as the US (360 security, intersecting lanes of fire, etc.)?

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 11:39 PM  

We do all those exercises to failure (running with Cooper's Test) and are assigned a physical grade. That is a strong determinant in what branch of service you will be assigned to. If the score is low enough, you are sent packing from the army, told to exercise for a year, and come back a year later. I can't remember what the numbers are for all this, it's been two decades.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 14, 2018 11:40 PM  

Give Finn a M-39 Mosin Nagant point way to Russian front, war over

Blogger Nate April 14, 2018 11:44 PM  

No Vox. It is extremely important that he hear it from both sides. If his base doesn't speak up then there is no opposing pressure to the constant media stream of commie retardery.

a kid facing peer pressure needs to be able to say "No.. I can't do that. My dad will kill me if I do that."

And Trump needs to be able to say, "no. I can't do that. my base will kill me if I do that."

The missile strike was stupid. It was a huge mistake that was all risk and no reward.

Calling it stupid is not wrong.

We are calling it stupid so maybe Trump will know not to do it next time.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 11:44 PM  

Wikipedia says that in one of the high prestige branches, the average Cooper's test result is 3.0 km / 1.86 mi at the beginning of service. Duration is 12 minutes like in USA.

Blogger Crush Limbraw April 14, 2018 11:44 PM  

Does criticism preclude having faith?
My family and I are closer now than ever before - and it wouldn't have happened without opening up our closed minded presumptions!
Yes, I was the primary culprit as a catalyst - but somebody has to do it!

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 14, 2018 11:45 PM  

Markku,

The American military is similar in the field. No rank insignia, no saluting, etc. The smart zeros will make themselves look just like enlisted men. Sleeves rolled down, rifles instead of pistols. Snipers look for differences between men. Target identifiers, they are called.

Blogger Nate April 14, 2018 11:46 PM  

also... Faith...

Have faith in what? Give me concrete accomplishments. not BS. we got a run-of-the-mill republican tax cut that would've happened no matter what GOP candidate was in office.

We don't have a wall.

We don't have epic deportations.

Hillary is not in jail.

Trump freaking appointed the very man that appointed Robert Mueller. And you think this dude is a strategic genius? The guys who OK'd the FBI raid on Trump's lawyer... WERE TRUMP APPOINTEES.

Ya know maybe Trump wouldn't have to fire people so much if he maybe tried to not hire people who want to destroy him.

Crazy thought.


Anonymous Anonymous April 14, 2018 11:52 PM  

I don't think it's just about this attack which even the Syrians don't seem to that agitated about. I expect it's a lot of pent-up frustration and disappointment. Hell, some of the folks screaming against Trump from the right are way more upset than Assad and Putin combined. Cerno - the original Magabot - calling for impeachment now?? That's something I have to say I'm surprised to see.

The Porkulus, gun control (inexcusable), resurrecting TPP, Sessions sitting on his ass doing zero about lawless governors, mayors, judges. The funding for SJWs and Antifa continues without interruption. What makes it worse for the base are things like the Q-haiku - all these promises of a 'great awakening' followed by arrests, etc. Not one of these characters has even been charged. The Broward County machine (Clintons, Scott Israel, DWS) now literally getting away with murder. Yes, the credit for good things done gets overlooked at times like this: MS-13 arrests, finally getting rid of catch and release (until a judge says he can't) and some other overall decent fixes. Considering he's been opposed at every turn by the donks, his own party and the deep state it's actually a wonder he's done anything at all.

Blogger Markku April 14, 2018 11:55 PM  

Hey Carolus, would you like to, uh, join a place with almost all the OG Dread Ilk?

Blogger Seth Schueler April 14, 2018 11:56 PM  

I agree with Nate. Trump is having troubling transcending his boomer sense of noble respectability which he seemed to disregard during the campaign.

Blogger Nate April 15, 2018 12:09 AM  

"I agree with Nate. Trump is having troubling transcending his boomer sense of noble respectability which he seemed to disregard during the campaign. "

So far the most accurate predictor of Trump's behavior is "What would a boomer do?"

Blogger Jack Amok April 15, 2018 12:10 AM  

It's because it's so damned important to Russians. I'm telling you, they WILL start a nuclear war over this, if you poke the Bear enough.

The really maddening thing about this is between the US and Russia, we can produce enough oil that we ought to be able to tell the ME to go to Hell. If we reached an agreement for both nations to pull out and leave the place to itself (and tell China and Europe neither is welcome to butt in), then they'll all kill each other and the US and Russia will have economic booms from being the most dependable energy suppliers.

Blogger Nate April 15, 2018 12:13 AM  

"The really maddening thing about this is between the US and Russia, we can produce enough oil that we ought to be able to tell the ME to go to Hell."

exactly. there is absolutely no reason for the US and Russia to be enemies. it makes no sense at all. We should be strong allies.

Blogger AdognamedOp April 15, 2018 12:14 AM  

Come to think of it, if it gives us more Alex Jones hilarity, I say let the missiles fly!

Blogger lowercaseb April 15, 2018 12:16 AM  

@77 You can find them on 8-chan but you have to sift through a LOT of cruft. These aggregaters are somewhat reliable recently if you are pressed for time.

qanon.pub
qanonposts.com
qanonmap.bitbucket.io

Be careful with aggregaters though. You never know when one will get hacked or just decided to go blackhat and fill itself with malware.

You can also search youtube for "q anon updates" for a safer listing, but YMMV on the quality of the presenter.

Blogger Jack Amok April 15, 2018 12:21 AM  

No Vox. It is extremely important that he hear it from both sides. If his base doesn't speak up then there is no opposing pressure to the constant media stream of commie retardery.


I'm with Nate on this, though I think there's a pretty big gap between saying this was a stupid move on Trump's part and breaking down in tears saying Trump is "crapping all over us."

I'm not happy about this, but I'm not edging my way towards the back door so I can jump off the Trump Train either.

Blogger LES April 15, 2018 12:23 AM  


Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
What will we get for bombing Syria besides more debt and a possible long term conflict? Obama needs Congressional approval.

11:14 AM - Aug 29, 2013

Trump should have put the onus on Congress and demanded a formal Declaration of War. Then we, the people,
could vote the warmongers out of office in November.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 15, 2018 12:25 AM  

Nate wrote:

We are calling it stupid so maybe Trump will know not to do it next time.


Trump likely knew it was stupid. We are calling it stupid to give him cover to say NO. And to ensure that he knows it was stupid, because it's good to state the obvious.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 12:26 AM  

Well, that strategy has great risks too. Let's say that the Kabuki Theater hypothesis is correct. If he got his formal declaration of war, the result would be to ACTUALLY strike at Russian targets, with the obvious results. If Putin is in on this game, this way you could do it while knowing that Russia won't respond with total war.

Blogger IreneAthena April 15, 2018 12:30 AM  

Well if you believe Trump is honestly a man of peace, you need to get out there and do what he MAY be unable to do alone Look at all those neocons and neolibs drooling at the prospect of another shot at bloody regime change! Peace-loving Jews who aren’t afraid of being called antisemites are telling it like it is. You have more allies for peace out there than you know.

Take advantage of the antiwar sentiment while it’s out there. You can disabuse your friends and neighbors of the follies of NWO globalism while you are standing shoulder-to-shoulder opposing another regime change NWO war ... neocons and neolibs are not going to settle for one night of symbolic strikes! Give Trump the benefit of the doubt that he’s doing all he can to support you behind the scenes....and if you’ve lost THAT kind of faith, don’t forget about you know....The Prince of Peace. I hate that Im hearing US Christians CHEERiNG trump for “standing with Israel” by opposing Assad. What is the Prince of Peace asking Y’ALL to do?

Blogger IreneAthena April 15, 2018 12:36 AM  

http://mondoweiss.net/2018/04/neocons-liberal-interventionists/amp/ That link is Mondoweiss on neocons and interventionist liberals back in the saddle again.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 15, 2018 12:48 AM  

This attack against Syria was all for show and the people publicly criticizing Trump are actually helping him.

Blogger LES April 15, 2018 12:55 AM  

Congress would never have passed a formal Declaration of War. Still, we could have voted against members of Congress who would vote for it.

The Office of Legal Counsel is often called the Supreme Court of the executive branch "The deeply bizarre and alarming answer is that Trump almost certainly does have some purported legal justification provided to him by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel — but no one else, including Congress, can read it."

Blogger pdwalker April 15, 2018 1:01 AM  

Q says, Trust the Plan.

I’m going to continue to trust the plan.

Remember, we don’t know everything the GE knows.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 1:33 AM  

And Trump needs to be able to say, "no. I can't do that. my base will kill me if I do that."

That doesn't sound like a man prepared to drain the swamp as if his Presidency and the country depended on it. That's why I doubt him.

Blogger jb April 15, 2018 1:36 AM  

Andrew #34 and a few others get what happened. He gave Putin, and by way of Putin, Assad time and warning to get their stuff and manpower out of the way. Do I think Don and Vlad talk back-channel. Yes, to put it bluntly. It is the deep state, not Donald, that has ever desired war with Russia, and Putin would love to be rid of them, too. The targets last night were the key, which were installations run by deep state operatives and their various henchmen. Clears the way for Putin and Assad to chase the rest of the vermin out, then Donald pulls the troops onto ships and slides on over to the PG for a date with the mullahs and the deep state backers behind them.

As with NK, so with Syria, and the coming attraction - Iran. Yes, NK - the Nuke Mountain had something quite unforeseen occur. The neocons here went silent, and suddenly Kim was Mr. Congeniality and willing to be done with nukes. So were I the mullahs, I'd be making travel plans.

The "swamp" is not merely located in DC - it tentacles extend far and wide. Donald said he wanted to end the endless wars. SO he must get the deep state out of the hot spots always causing the wars. He's working matters out on the international front; Sessions and Horowitz and Huber on the domestic, until Mueller self-destructs - which he appears to be quite close to doing.

Yes, trust the plan. ;)

It is sad to see so many were actual fair-weather Backers, but Donald is doing what he was elected to do. Friday was quite the unlucky day for the deep swamp on every front.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 1:46 AM  

Where is the Think Tank putting all of this together jb? Is there a star chamber down in Quantico? Gitmo? Where is the space for Sessions to operate? The DoJ and State have to be 95% ratmeat at this point. Did Trump create a shadow of a shadow? Man, I'd love it to be true.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 15, 2018 1:49 AM  

That's why I doubt him.

No, you doubt him because it makes you feel less inadequate. Momentarily. Then you pretend to be minimally intelligent, and fail.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 1:53 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 1:56 AM  

@Snidely, any time you want to address a point you're welcome to.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 15, 2018 2:00 AM  

Interesting, thanks.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 15, 2018 2:01 AM  

I think Trump is smart enough to realise he cannot fight everyone simultaneously, so he's not trying to.

That's something the neocons haven't figured out yet, by the way, but I tend to think only having their faces stomped repeatedly in the detritus of their own failures will ever convince them to stop trying, and even then they'll mutter for 50 years afterwards about how they were betrayed by politics at home but could have won on the ground ...

Blogger HoosierHillbilly April 15, 2018 2:04 AM  

@98 The Russians don't make strong allies with ANYONE...for like centuries now. It is some strange part of the Russian psyche that Westerners will never understand. Some blend of paranoia, uncertainty between East and West, and intense national pride.

Strong allies implies some sense of trust and give-and-take. Which America will not have with Russia, and Russia will not have with America. Does this tired old RUSSIA IS THE GREATEST THREAT stuff make sense? Not in the least. Our long-term interests don't seem to conflict much at all, and both nations would stand to gain with the whole raw material exporter vs. manufacturing/consumer balance being more finely tuned.

Enemies should be dropped for sure...but allies might be a stretch.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 2:07 AM  

Absolutely. Russians don't do trust. Like, at all. However, they can rationally identify a situation where it would go against your self-interest to betray them. And then they will act like someone who trusts you, acts.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 2:12 AM  

That's why their media (the one directed at actual Russians) spends so much energy in calling Trump insane. To us, it sounds like childish rhetoric. But THEY understand what the message is: That Russia cannot rely on USA rationally following its self-interest if they were to deal with USA.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 2:16 AM  

They expect you to be evil. They don't necessarily expect you to be insane. If you're insane, it means that you will betray simply out of malice and for the lulz.

Blogger jb April 15, 2018 2:27 AM  

H2 #118

...and intense national pride. Now that is a very interesting point, one VD has talked about muchly. And I give Nate many extra points for thinking forward. The Russian mindset is not always impenetrable. Defensive? Hell, yes, with much justification. In my many years I have heard little but "hate Russia" fed to Americans like a mother's teat to her babe. Our mindset has much to do with the Russian mindset, whether we like hearing that or not. Do not get me wrong by any degree - I love my country as much as does any Russian his. But we have a common enemy now, and perhaps it is time to lean a bit more toward what Nate said. God knows the "hate Russia" bit damn sure didn't work out all that well.

AI #112

Nah, nothing so dramatic as a "star chamber" or any such nonsense. A lot of reading and watching and constant evaluation and re-evaluation is very helpful. My own vocation drilled that into me for years. Second nature to do so now.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 15, 2018 2:29 AM  

@Arthur, any time you want to provide one NOT based on your feelings, I'd be happy to.

Blogger IreneAthena April 15, 2018 2:31 AM  

...was following until “pulls the troops onto ships and slides on over to the PG for a date with the mullahs and the deep state backers behind them.” Explain a little more, please. And what about Afghanistan? Is Afghanistan in the plan? I mean some of us would be happy to get the US out of foreign entanglements... but This Plan of which you speak goes way beyond that, calling for the eradication of bad guys from all the world around, where-ere they be found.

Blogger jb April 15, 2018 2:45 AM  

Dear Lady IA #124

Think it through - what is the common element in NK, Syria, and Iran? Likewise, as you ask, Afghanistan? Russia and China obviously refuse to be susceptible, but most of Europe caved long ago. There is a common thread to it all.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 3:00 AM  

@jb, looking at what is being described as the "Storm" I think you'd be hard pressed as a believer in it to describe a star chamber as dramatic. Maybe I misunderstand your position though.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 3:11 AM  

Also, if you think shoving people out of helicopters is less dramatic and nonsensical than secret tribunals I get where you're coming from.

Blogger jb April 15, 2018 3:16 AM  

Arthur #126

I just played off your seeming amazement in #112. Your term, not mine.

Blogger jb April 15, 2018 3:32 AM  

And where is it this inquisitional line of questioning you are trying to lead me through going? I stated my opinion in my original post in clear words, and in my second post in response to your first query:

"A lot of reading and watching and constant evaluation and re-evaluation is very helpful. My own vocation drilled that into me for years. Second nature to do so now."

Or in other words - what's your point?

Blogger Jack Amok April 15, 2018 3:43 AM  

exactly. there is absolutely no reason for the US and Russia to be enemies. it makes no sense at all. We should be strong allies.

I work with Russians and HoosierHillbilly is right, we don't have to be enemies, but I don't think we can exactly be allies, despite aligned strategic interests. Russians can be really likable on a personal level, but they are pains in the ass to work with. They don't stick with agreements. After you reach an agreement with them, you can bank on them finding some reason - the next day, the next week, six months later, whatever - some reason why they can't do what they agreed to, even when doing what they agreed to is the easiest and most obvious solution for them.

Sometimes I wonder if they do it intentionally, some slavic version of a shit-test, just to see if you'll let them jerk you around.

So while I think there is absolutely no reason for the US and Russian to get into a fight over a bunch of obnoxious goat bangers, I would not think of them as allies.

Blogger Sherwood family April 15, 2018 4:02 AM  

Dealt with and deal with lots of Russians. It is all a shit test. They do not believe you are serious so they test you to confirm that you're reliable. And they won't be reliable in return until you break past some indefinable barrier. After that they will literally die rather than betray you. But getting to and past that barrier is neither clear nor straight forward.

That said, there is literally no reason on earth we should be enemies. Maybe not allies. But certainly not enemies.

More on topic: I think the reason lots of people are panicking is because they have been burned and burned repeatedly by people they elected who were "their guy." They are suffering from political "attachment disorder." They want to be the ones to terminate their loyalty to the President on their own terms rather than feel like they got screwed again after trusting yet another political leader who tells them what they want them to hear only to turn on them.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 4:15 AM  

@Markku There's nothing like that in the US, mainly because this country is just way too big for something like that to work.

Finland has a population of ~5.5M people. JUST NYC has a population of ~8.5M people. The whole US has a population of ~350M people. Finland has an area of ~130k sq miles. The continental USA has an area of ~3.2 MILLION sq miles.

What will work to house and protect a tiny and homogeneous population of relatively high IQ high trust people in a small and sparsely populated country will not work at all with a highly diverse and unruly population that is far dumber, close to a hundred times bigger, and spread over twenty five times as much area.

Hell, there's probably 20% of the US population that would burn the shelters down WHILE INSIDE THEM just to watch the flames dance.

BUT, that vast space is also our saving grace. Where I live is a hundred miles from the big city, and a hundred miles from the nearest Mil base. Both could get nuked and I'd never know it unless the wind took a weird and sustained turn.

Unless they get to nuking cities with less than 15k people in them just for the hell of it, there are huge areas of the US that wouldn't even notice a nuclear war (aside from the internet disappearing, power grid problems, food distribution, etc).

Direct blast and fallout are only issues for the people who live in and directly around the big cities and Mil bases.

If nuclear winter isn't really a thing, them Rooskies might be doing us a kindness by taking out the big cities and all the .gov installations.

But no, nothing like what you're talking about exists in the US, outside of those special sites for the gov't and the ultra rich.

As per usual, the actual people of the US are on our own.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 4:30 AM  

Yes, I understand. What I mean is, we are doing this entirely defensively, not having any nukes. And WE have gone through this much trouble. For the Russians, it's also strategy. What do you imagine THEY have done?

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 4:35 AM  

It's not even relevant if they're right or wrong about whether nuclear holocaust can be survived. By the time they're proven wrong, it has already happened. The only thing that matters is what they believe about it.

Blogger VD April 15, 2018 4:50 AM  

Or, another alternative:
Russia: *Shoots down satellites, trigger Kessler syndrome*
USA: WTF?! WE'LL NUKE YOU!!!!1!
Russia: Do it faggots. We're in our Moscow-size shelter. How's your shelters?
USA: Ok, I guess we'll just try fighting the war without satellites.
Russia: That's what we figured.


I consider that to be vastly more likely than massive thermonuclear war. The US is overconfident and weak now. It is a different people. Unlike in 1941, it considers itself invulnerable and is a bully. I expect it to crumble and give up if it gets its nose properly bloodied.

And by properly, I mean militarily defeated in some manner that cannot be rationalized or excused into nonexistence.

Blogger VD April 15, 2018 4:54 AM  

No Vox. It is extremely important that he hear it from both sides. If his base doesn't speak up then there is no opposing pressure to the constant media stream of commie retardery.

Speaking up is fine. Calling it stupid is fine. We're not talking about that. I did that myself, well, not quite, I called it APPARENTLY stupid, because if they did bomb Deep State centers in Syria, it was very clever.

But declaring oneself off the Trump Train (again), shrieking, crying, and announcing that one will never support him going forward are not the same thing, They are, in my opinion, contemptible.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 5:00 AM  

@133 I dunno, probably depends on how much they value their people.

The Soviets wouldn't have blinked an eye at doing what you're talking about, even if they hadn't prepared to save their people at all.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of the current Russian gov't to say whether they're prepared as you are or not, or if they care about that enough that it even enters into their calculus vis a vis nuclear exchange.

Speaking entirely on gut feeling from seeing how Putin deals with his own opposition and the media, etc, I don't think the guy is crazy (or socio/psychopathic) enough to want to fight a nuclear war unless there was simply no other option.

Even if they have huge shelters to keep the entire population alive through the aftermath (which I kind of doubt, Russia is also much bigger than Finland), you can't move that kind of population fast enough to maintain anything like "the element of surprise", so any first strike would be given away by the massive evacuations.

I have a low opinion generally of all world leaders, but no so low that I suspect either Putin or Trump of being willing to sacrifice a significant percentage of their population for some nebulous advantage that would be gained by "winning" a nuclear war.

I mean, Putin seems to actually LIKE Russian and Russians, much as Trump seems to genuinely like America (as he imagines it still to be) and regular Americans.

I understand why Finns refuse to trust Ivan even as far as they can throw him, but I don't think anyone Russia wants to fight a nuclear war for shits and giggles.

If Moscow were being overrun by an invading army? You bet your ass they would. But just to "win" some geopolitical wrestling match? I don't think so.

I mean, what does Russia gain by nuking the US that they cannot already get by other less drastic means?

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 5:03 AM  

so any first strike would be given away by the massive evacuations

I addressed this in the previous thread. Russia has been handed an excellent excuse and narrative to seriously amp up nuclear drills. They can do the ol' in-out-in-out trick twenty times, lull you into thinking nothing of it. Then, on the twenty first time...

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 5:05 AM  

And also, in Kessler syndrome Russia would almost certainly win. They don't even NEED to trigger global thermonuclear war, they just need to set up the situation in such a way that USA will make the calculation that Russia would come on top in global thermonuclear war, and therefore for USA to not start it.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 5:16 AM  

@17

> In what world is a missile strike not an act of war?

One where you coordinate with the country on the receiving end as to exactly which buildings should get hit, and give them 36 hours to pull their people out of the blast radius.

My suspicion is, every single building blown up was one which Assad or his people wanted to take down anyways. Oh, and, just like last time, we sent some missiles to land on empty concrete. Those impact points will be patched with asphalt within hours, and permanent repairs made after the war is over.

> Here's a test: if Putin did it to Washington DC, would we say it's an act of war? If the answer is yes, you have to be consistent.

Depends? If these were Russian cruise missiles taking out the EPA, Department of Energy, Department of Education, the central office for NPR and PBS, and the offices for the National Endowment for the Arts, I would submit paperwork that the Russian missile crews and their commanders be award Silver Stars by the U.S. Army.

Additional awards if they took out the offices of the ACLU, the SPLC, BLM / BAMN (By Any Means Necessary), NOW, and NARAL. And the now gay-leader-friendly Boy Scouts, USA.

Blogger VD April 15, 2018 5:20 AM  

Speaking entirely on gut feeling from seeing how Putin deals with his own opposition and the media, etc, I don't think the guy is crazy (or socio/psychopathic) enough to want to fight a nuclear war unless there was simply no other option.

The problem is that anyone who has mastered game theory logic can conclude there is simply no other option a lot faster, and a lot sooner, than the average person is capable of perceiving the same.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 5:23 AM  

USA has put all its strategic eggs in one basket, and that basket has one Achilles' Heel: Kessler syndrome. Therefore, USA has threatened to respond to that with nukes. Very well, this is a valid gambit. But Russia has an obvious response to this gambit, and recent events have made it easier to pull off.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 15, 2018 5:27 AM  

"The problem is that anyone who has mastered game theory logic can conclude there is simply no other option a lot faster, and a lot sooner, than the average person is capable of perceiving the same."

I'd say the man has a lot of hope.

Blogger tublecane April 15, 2018 5:33 AM  

Coulter and Cernovich have been especially disappointing. (Not as embarrassing as Alex Jones, but he is basically a WWF character, so it doesn't really matter what he does.) They're both acting like "a woman scorned."

No one can analyze Trump like a normal politician, for good reason, admittedly. But if we could somehow manage, would see he has way overdelivered. Even counting the giant screwups, like bump-stocks.

Anyway, where do they go? It's basically just Never-Trumpers and...uh...Rand Paul?

They'll ankle-biter and nitpick for a while, then come crawling back. This inbetween time is embarrassing.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 5:40 AM  

I played a board game once. The owner of the game seemed to be pretty much minding his own business and nobody thought much of him. We others had our little skirmishes with each other.

Then suddenly, in one turn, the owner comes boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-victory. That was a great lesson about strategy in general. Keep close watch about what options are open to someone. Not what he's currently doing.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 5:51 AM  

Taking out the GPS and Com satellite constellation would be deeply irritating, but would not render the US Military as dead in the water as you surmise.

Talk to any currently serving front line troops and you'll find that the whiz-bang stuff rarely functions properly even now. During the Iraq invasion the uselessness of the high tech nav and com shit they'd been issued was legendary.

This is also the primary reason that the F35 platform has blossomed such epic feature creep. They want the F35 to be able to serve as a mini-AWACS in their portion of the battle space. Whether that is doable or not is beyond my ken, but I know that's something they've been aiming for from nearly the beginning.

Same with land nav and other recon methods. We rely on satellites to do the heavy lifting, but there are many other fall-back options, should the satellites cease to be.

JDAM's would have to revert back to IR laser sighting instead of GPS, and the fancy missiles would have to go back to internal inertial nav instead of GPS, but they wouldn't just suddenly become useless.

I know current active duty non-coms that are responsible for training everyone to do these things in the old school manner. Don't know if it's official .mil policy or not, but I know these guys make sure their people are competent with paper map and compass land nav and coms through older/novel means.

They (the US mil) have also been developing alternate small scale means for orientation and direction of munitions via some sort of drone based system. I'm not privy to the details, and it's very possible that I wouldn't understand it entirely if I were. What I've gathered is that they'd use several airborne drones to give the munition some reference points to orient itself and find its target, similar to how they use GPS now, but transient and able to be deployed on an ad-hoc basis.

I dunno for sure (obviously), but I get the feeling that if the sat constellation suddenly went TU that about two thirds of the brass would shit their pants instantly, and the other third would smile, crack their knuckles, and dig into the problem.

Might be 80/20 or 90/10, but as is always the case, the ones who get results will lead the fight, and the pants shitters will stare blankly and be ignored.

At any rate, as the wise man says, "We'll see."

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 6:05 AM  

And I still don't see what Russia "wins" by a sudden catastrophic attack on space based coms and daring the US to nuke them.

I mean, they don't have the numbers to invade and occupy anywhere worth taking over, and what would they want the land area for anyway? Russia is huge and sparsely populated as it is.

Plus, once their grand move is done, and they've won whatever it is that they were after, they've now got to live in a world that can never have satellite based coms or GPS ever again. Talk about economic hobbles.

Going Kessler is a one-and-done kind of gambit that has no reset. It'd be like the Norks nuking Beijing and then declaring victory. I mean sure, you "won" that exchange, but now you starve and have no alternatives available to you.

Why would the Russians choose a course of action that would give them only a momentary advantage but result in a crippling and ongoing disadvantage in the long run?

I mean, they're not currently engaged in an immediate life or death struggle (unless I'm missing some huge part of the puzzle here). It would be madness to resort to last ditch doomsday sort of measures when there are many other options still available to them.

Removing satellites from humanity's basket of technological goodies doesn't only effect the USA. It's not like they can only destroy the stuff that we use and not harm anyone else's orbital platforms.

This is an action on the order of blotting out the sun to win a war against solar powered machines, what happens after you've won?

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:07 AM  

@98

"exactly. there is absolutely no reason for the US and Russia to be enemies. it makes no sense at all. We should be strong allies."

We were, from the founding, until about 1920.

The father of the Russian Navy is JOHN PAUL JONES!
And John Quincy Adams spent a significant portion of his childhood in St. Petersburg.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 6:10 AM  

The West is squeezing them very effectively at the present moment. The economic measures against Russia have even touched me, personally. But the world order that is doing it, requires high tech. Give it the kind of perturbation that permanently removing satellites from the human collection of technologies gives, and that threat is gone. It will simply collapse under its own weight. Now Russia's army and equipment, which was previously hunks of junk and pieces of crap, is actually VERY competitive in the new situation. Precisely because it is WW2 pieces of crap. Russia will be left alone, which is what it always wanted.

Blogger Johnny April 15, 2018 6:26 AM  

Watching Trump through this current problem has convinced me that I can read his body language with some certainty, and it is entirely consistent with the theory that he doesn't like this Syria stuff and and launched the missile hit only because he felt compelled to do so owing to political circumstance. I see it as one of the few times he has acted like a normal politician. They do this sort of thing all the time.

And unless there is further similar developments all this huff and puff complaining will just go away. In a couple weeks it will be history and in a couple of months it won't even be remembered.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 6:26 AM  

So you think they'd essentially sentence themselves and all the rest of humanity to 19th century coms for the rest of time to get out of the current sanctions being pushed on them?

I think that's a rather dire choice to make given that there are any number of other ways to deal with their current problems that don't involve hobbling themselves in the aftermath.

It surely is one possibility, but I doubt very much that it's their primary or even fifth choice.

Besides, was Trump not elected to, among other things, give the Russians a path to being left alone other than war?

You guys are talking like WW3 with Russia is a foregone conclusion now, and the only question left is "How do they win it?"

Honestly (IMO), if the Russians wanted to start WW3, they've had ample excuse to do so for the last ten years or more, but they haven't.

I don't think they want to fight a big war like that any more than we do (and by we, I mean the people of the US, not the swamp or the (((bankers))) or Mil/Ind Complex, etc).

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 6:27 AM  

So you think they'd essentially sentence themselves and all the rest of humanity to 19th century coms for the rest of time to get out of the current sanctions being pushed on them?

Yes, because they don't view it as "current sanctions" but as a campaign to destroy Russia. A campaign that appears to be succeeding.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:31 AM  

@119

"Absolutely. Russians don't do trust. Like, at all. However, they can rationally identify a situation where it would go against your self-interest to betray them. And then they will act like someone who trusts you, acts."

Because Russia is a nation of chess-players.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 6:31 AM  

Here's how it looks from their perspective: They have decided to become a Christian nation. Now, lo and behold, here's The West - the same West that is pushing all sorts of degeneracy at a rapidly increasing speed - is suddenly out to destroy Russia. All of them working together. Gee whiz, they wonder why. Could it perhaps be the Christian part?

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 6:35 AM  

And here's the American South. The only other region in the world that strongly identifies as Christian. Their history and culture is being aggressively wiped out in a concerted campaign. OH GEE THIS IS ALL SO CONFUSING! WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2018 6:37 AM  

Traditionally, everyone has always hated the Russians.

it's probably because their geographic position sucks defensively. They have no natural borders, so they have always had to be extremely aggressive to protect their sovereignty.
That and they have always been in a prime position to control trade between the east and the west.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 6:38 AM  

And this is not guessing. I know this because I read Pravda occasionally.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:42 AM  

@130

"
So while I think there is absolutely no reason for the US and Russian to get into a fight over a bunch of obnoxious goat bangers, I would not think of them as allies."


For Russia, this is NOT a fight over a bunch of obnoxious goat-bangers. This is for their Mediterranean Sea port. Also known as their ONLY warm-water (i.e. accessible all 12 months of the year) sea port that isn't on the Pacific coast.

"Warm Water Ports" have been a concern of Russia since the days when John Paul Jones was creating their navy.

Blogger VD April 15, 2018 6:46 AM  

And I still don't see what Russia "wins" by a sudden catastrophic attack on space based coms and daring the US to nuke them.

They break the Satanic Empire that is trying to defeat them in order to rule the world forever.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 15, 2018 6:48 AM  

"Could it perhaps be the Christian part?"

I've been thinking lately that this is a thousand year old split. I mean, look at churchianity and the RCC and what it's lead to. And there's the communist lines, fuzzy at the edges, but large Orthodox percentages. I've come across Jay Dyer recently, smart guy, was Calvinists, then RC, realized there were problems with that and now claims and defends Orthodoxy. He says he has done the work, 20+ years research reading a lot of the early Church Fathers. It is only in recent times apparently that many of these works have been translated and made available to the west. I'll link a couple of thought provoking articles. His YouTube channel is worth a visit too.

https://jaysanalysis.com/2014/12/28/new-atheists-refuted-logic-presupposes-ethics-metaphysics/
https://jaysanalysis.com/2017/05/27/filioquism-is-arian-subordinationism-applied-to-the-spirit/

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:57 AM  

"Taking out the GPS and Com satellite constellation would be deeply irritating, but would not render the US Military as dead in the water as you surmise.

Talk to any currently serving front line troops and you'll find that the whiz-bang stuff rarely functions properly even now. During the Iraq invasion the uselessness of the high tech nav and com shit they'd been issued was legendary."

Hello, Iridium phones!


Anybody who's an Iraq of Afghanistan vet, and saw the movie Sole Survivor, in which the SEAL team was DEPENDING on an Iridium phone .... just shakes their head -- "What were these guys thinking??" While a touch heavier, the Harris medium-wave AM/FM/USB/LSB/CW data/voice are the ultimate in reliability, at pretty much any distance (given big enough antenna, you can literally talk to people on the other side of the planet by BOUNCING YOUR SIGNAL OFF THE MOON!)

Blogger Duke Norfolk April 15, 2018 6:57 AM  

Sherwood family wrote:They want to be the ones to terminate their loyalty to the President on their own terms rather than feel like they got screwed again after trusting yet another political leader who tells them what they want them to hear only to turn on them.

Yes, this. I admit to having to fight this off myself. It's the syndrome that led me to swearing off politics and being a libertarian.

And then, Trump. I reluctantly looked back into the political scene in 2016, and slowly decided to support Trump. And I'm not alone. But many others don't want to get jilted, and so are doing the jilting proactively.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 7:08 AM  

Now, as for the earlier comment about foregone conclusion: No, WW3 is not a foregone conclusion. As I said, in the board game analogy, you don't look at what a player is doing now. You look at what options he has. That will predict his actions, and allow you to know what to do and what not to do, in order to hinder those actions.

Giving them a narrative for nuclear drills is a tool that is JUST the tool they need for their best strategy. DON'T FUCKING BOMB SYRIA.

Anonymous Anonymous April 15, 2018 7:12 AM  

Lazarus wrote:Potassium iodide is only good for radioiodine.
Which is most of what you need to worry about.  Ever heard of the rule of 7?  Radiation from fallout decreases by a factor of 10 when time increases by a factor of 7.  If you have no other option, sheltering for 7 hours decreases your radiation exposure to 1/10.  If you can get to someplace you can shelter for the remainder of 49 hours (~2 days total) it goes down to 1/100.  Sheltering for 343 hours (~2 weeks) decreases fallout exposure by a factor of 1000.  After that it's mostly safe to be outside as long as you take precautions.

I-131 has a half-life of 8 days.  It's hot, but not much of a threat unless you eat it and incorporate it.  Plus, it's effectively gone in less than 3 months.

Cesium 137 is more lethal with a half- life of 30 years
WTF are you doing, thinking lethality is proportional to half-life?  Thorium has a half-life of about 14 billion years.  Do you think it's millions of times deadlier than I-131?  The only toxicity worth talking about from thorium is because it's a heavy metal, like lead.  It's not because each atom has some vanishingly small chance of decaying while it's in your body.  Until it decays, I-131 is biologically just like normal stable iodine.  The problem is that it has a really high probability of decaying while it's in your thyroid if you let it get there.  It's the SHORT half-life that makes it dangerous.

The longer the half-life, the LESS radioactive something is.  I-131 with a HL of 8 days is literally around a trillion times as radioactive as the same mass of thorium.

Anonymous Anonymous April 15, 2018 7:12 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:The really maddening thing about this is between the US and Russia, we can produce enough oil that we ought to be able to tell the ME to go to Hell.
That would mostly rebound to the advantage of Chindia, running on cheap oil being sold at a loss.

To really kill the ME you'd have to destroy its oil infrastructure.  That would get China (and Japan) in a huge way.  The US would hurt a lot but much less so; US net imports are still close to 4 million barrels/day.  This is a hell of a lot better than the 12.5 million in 2005, but it is a very long way from oil independence.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 7:15 AM  

@159 They also break themselves and everyone else at the same time.

That seems rather drastic. Makes for a good story/theory, I'll say that.

And honestly, if they provoke a Kessler event and trap humanity on the earth for all time (pretty much), they may actually deserve to be nuked.

I guess we'll see.

Maybe that'll prompt SpaceX to put their orbital junk collector project on the front burner.

That'd let 'em start up Crazy Elon's Orbital Salvage and Satellite Parts Emporium.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 7:20 AM  

My intuition says that you could still leave earth at the poles. It seems like the direction in which space junk creates more space junk is reasonably static.

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 7:25 AM  

Let's say the cascade is initially along the equator. How much high speed junk would there be above north and south pole? My intuition says, little.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira April 15, 2018 7:29 AM  

This is true. May just be a show of force.

Blogger DonReynolds April 15, 2018 7:35 AM  

I believe it was Aristotle who said...in order to lead, you must first learn how to follow. He was probably correct.

When I graduated high school, I was still 17 years old and the Vietnam conflict would continue with American involvement for another three years. WE did not know that at the time. The war had been going on since I was in elementary school...much of my life and there was no end in sight in 1970.

Millions of Americans were demonstrating against the war and American involvement in the war. They said the war was illegal and immoral and intolerable. People were dying and there was suffering, which was the nature of war.

I decided at the time that the government was led by people with 40 years or more of experience in these matters....including previous wars....and they were highly educated, intelligent, and patriotic Americans, who loved their country. And unlike the protesters, they had access to information that was not available to the public, nor would it ever be, and they alone knew what the goals and purposes of the conflict were at the time. As a recent high school grad, I was certainly in no position to challenge their judgement or imagine that I knew better than they did what was best for the country or what needed to be done. No, they did not have the purest of motives and they made mistakes it seems. Every conflict includes these things. But my country needed my help and it was my duty to volunteer...so I did.

Before you can lead, you must first learn how to follow.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 7:40 AM  

@168 I dunno. I'm an engineer, but not in orbital mechanics or space flight, so I don't have the knowledge to say one way or the other.

Relative velocity between the objects is what matters here, but I don't know how the geostationary orbits would be effected, since everything in that orbit is both stationary relative to one another (and the earth for that matter) and orbiting in the same direction, I'm not sure how you'd get a cascade event in the first place.

If you move slower, your orbit decays and you lose altitude. If you move faster, you gain altitude. Seems to me like the only way to actually have a cascade event in the relevant orbit would be to set up your killer sats on a similar but crossing orbit (same altitude, different declination/orientation). But then the odds of intersection between the killers and the GPS sats is vanishingly small unless you have tens or hundreds of thousands of killers.

Could be that I'm just not tall enough or well enough informed for this particular discussion.

You think Vlad would hold off on the satellite doomsday if I sent him a nice card? Maybe a fruit basket?

Blogger Markku April 15, 2018 7:44 AM  

As I understand, the initial velocity difference of your "starter" debris comes from your missile. Say, you shoot a few satellites against the orbit. Now you have debris that is much slower than the incoming satellites that hits them.

Blogger DonReynolds April 15, 2018 7:56 AM  

@165 Pale Male
"To really kill the ME you'd have to destroy its oil infrastructure. That would get China (and Japan) in a huge way. The US would hurt a lot but much less so; US net imports are still close to 4 million barrels/day. This is a hell of a lot better than the 12.5 million in 2005, but it is a very long way from oil independence."

During the Carter Administration, the US signed the International Energy Agreement, mostly with our European allies, which guaranteed that the USA would have European support for political solutions to the Middle East. That agreement protected our European allies from future OPEC embargoes, specifically.....the US guaranteed their oil supplies. Ships at sea would be diverted to European ports. Ships carrying oil in American ports would be dispatched to Europe in the event of another OPEC embargo. (1973 was a painful lesson, when OPEC cut production by 5 percent.) This agreement won common European support for American political initiatives toward peace in the Middle East. Of course, the bad news is that the US loses the "pipeline" of oil shipments the moment the oil embargo begins and not 6 or 8 weeks later.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 7:56 AM  

@Snidely

@Arthur, any time you want to provide one NOT based on your feelings, I'd be happy to.

Assertion: banning bump stocks after MSD and firing missiles off over a false flag because you must to appease Dems and Neocons and go through political base triangulation like a finely tuned Clinton is not evidence of a man preparing to drain the swamp. He doesn't have years to dither and triangulate, he has months. After the mid-terms it will be Rubicon in every direction. The Republicans are going to get their just deserts and the Democrats won't unless Trump is dishing them.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 8:03 AM  

@jb And where is it this inquisitional line of questioning you are trying to lead me through going? I stated my opinion in my original post in clear words, and in my second post in response to your first query:

Where on Earth is this happening and with what personnel? Are these plots being played out in the West Wing? Is it plausible that Trump has had operational security to do anything remotely like what you are suggesting?

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 15, 2018 8:11 AM  

Vox said "I expect it to crumble and give up if it gets its nose properly bloodied."

And the world is going to go through some long overdue and hellacious realignments.

Blogger Avalanche April 15, 2018 8:20 AM  

@57 "If America’s major cities get nuked they will kill off most of our naggers and Jews."

Not enough of 'our' muzzies though -- unless he hits Minneapolis... but not even then.

Blogger CoolHand April 15, 2018 8:32 AM  

@172 The thing is though that when in orbit, altitude is dictated by velocity.

You can't be going slower in the same direction and have the same altitude. If the missile hits the target and it breaks up and slows down, it will lose altitude (the orbit will degrade).

Altitude and velocity are inexerably linked, when one changes, so does the other.

The only way to get a collision is to have things orbiting at the same altitude and velocity, but with a different vector (declination/direction/orientation/whatever).

I'm going to have to do some research on this now, but I think the only way you could actually take out all the geo sats via a cascade event would be to put killers into many crossing orbits and hope that chance gives you an intersection.

One strike would produce the tens of thousands of particles on crossing orbits that you'd need to actually have a cascade, but getting that first hit will be pretty damned difficult.

It might actually be easier (and more desirable for everyone) to shoot the things down with missiles one at a time, letting the debris bleed off velocity and degrade into lower orbits until it re-enters the atmosphere and burns up.

That would play holy hell with many of the lower orbits, but it would leave the geostationary orbit more or less clean and usable when you were done fighting your war.

I'm gonna go dig on this for a few days and see what I can turn up. If I unearth anything useful or interesting I'll report back.

Blogger Avalanche April 15, 2018 8:36 AM  

Markku, to lots of your decriptions and that amazing underground picture... and your "I don't know what the plan is" ...

Yeah, but see, OUR "plan" is: no preparation at all (except by the most rich 'elites' and a lot of their planning involves a run for South America and New Zealand, and attempts by a few tens of thousands of 'survivalists' whose plans aren't likely to help them much/enough) and so -- if only we BELIEVE strongly enough, why it won't happen!

A real tip o' the hat to you Finns for such amazing preps, but then, Y'ALL have undergone actual war in our actual land. We've seen war movies about "over therrrrre, over there, over there."

Notice the diff? Y'all are grim and preparing and sure it's about to be over. WE are blind, ignorant, sure "something will pull it out we hope it's Trump!"

So, "after" it will be you grim types repopulating the earth; and we'll just have been cockroach food, but at least along with us nice smart(-ish) folks, most of the human and subhuman detritus will ALSO have been vaporized... Clean slate, nice new start. You've got the shelters, the seed bank, and a wholesale clearing of land. Get after it!

If you'd like a good and well-written 'about that' -- Steve (S.M.) Stirling has written an amazing trio of (four) books... the Drakka series... (for which he has been strongly excoriated by the 'science fiction' community; and has tried to distance himself from it -- but it's a brilliant Alt History. He also looks at more recent 'history' in the "Dies the Fire" series. Wholly different pair, but both real thought provokers.

(My late husband had me read the Drakka books before he'd let me come to him -- so I would understand his psychological, mental,emotional underpinnings. Hugely "K" exploration. Really apealled.)

Blogger Johnny April 15, 2018 8:45 AM  

Dire Badger wrote:Traditionally, everyone has always hated the Russians.

it's probably because their geographic position sucks defensively. They have no natural borders, so they have always had to be extremely aggressive to protect their sovereignty.

That and they have always been in a prime position to control trade between the east and the west.


Part of it seems to be culture. Culturally Russia is maybe half European. Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic or Protestant.

Of course the Eastern Europeans have been at war with Russia and each other for hundreds of years.

I doubt there has ever been extensive trade through Russia. In the early period the great distance made it hard to do. Plus once the Suez Canal was put in it was ever so much easier to go by ship. And even before the canal, ship transit was easier.

Blogger Avalanche April 15, 2018 8:49 AM  

@100 "You can also search youtube for "q anon updates" for a safer listing, but YMMV on the quality of the presenter."

Or, search for "Stroppy Me" he's an Aussie on YT who is good because all he does is show and read the latest Q posts -- there's almost no "this is what Q means:" or "here's a site to read" (unless it's one Q posted -- and then he just shows it, reads the headline, and goes back to the Q posts.

I use it to catch the latest Q posts without having to ford through a river of other posts.

Blogger LP999-16 April 15, 2018 8:52 AM  

Via youtube and peri I have tuned into the venting, the questioning, media figures talk in addition to beyond whom is listed here in Vox's post, its cool, let them talk. But I do not listen to anything Loomer has to say about anything.

Those listed in Vox's post are rapid fire at peri and youtube giving their take on this matter and its fine, they are selling their wares, expressing themselves (Iget it) interacting with others online, its fine; I harbor no hate towards fine people just upset; let us chill, pray, listen, "keep the faith" as I have already stated some days ago.

149 as the ACA harmed me, how have you and Dear Finland been impacted? I am sorry for that if I could help you, I would MK.

159 Agreed, thank you. Great clarity.

167 your intuition is godly and I regard it well, thank you.

Let the alt right be the future, the 16 points are popular and well regarded even though I wish Vox rec'ed the credit.

Blogger Johnny April 15, 2018 8:56 AM  

My version of what is going on right now is that it is class conflict between the upper class and the rest of us. Anti white because whites are the majority and therefore the greatest hindrance to the wealth few who would like to be running things.

If we ever do get a true power shift to the minority groups, then they will be the new greater threat to the elite few, and the culture will shift. Left behind, unfortunately, will be these large groups of people who don't agree, don't get along, and don't like each other. As playing one group off against another (we are there already) will be easy, the environment will lend itself to corruption and we will have a very corrupt government.

The outcome described above is what they have had in many Latin countries for a couple of hundred years. The Spanish left behind class based authoritarian societies.

Blogger Al Du Clur April 15, 2018 8:56 AM  

The right's anger over Syria and Trump bending over with the spending agreement is a logical and necessary development. Conservatives have been content for too long with waiving flags and receiving crumbs in return for their votes. Trump has tried to coast by for the first year plus of his presidency through creating a personality cult and not securing any crucial victories. The fact that much of his base is not content with crumbs at this point has probably kept him from totally selling out. Fortunately, more and more Trump voters are clued into the reality that tweeting about immigration isn't what we need and that he looks like a tool after tweeting for years about the stupidity of intervening in Syria only to do it twice do far in his presidency. Trump's platform has always been more popular than Trump. He needs to start trying to lead on something besides getting football players to not kneel. McConnell reportedly said Trump will sign any bill that is put in front of him. All evidence suggests that is true. If Trump cares about the country and not just his own ego, that needs to change as does his love for hiring people who hated his campaign platform and probably voted for Hillary

Blogger Avalanche April 15, 2018 9:11 AM  

@141 "anyone who has mastered game theory logic "

Wonder of the God Emperor ever played computer games? Or did he just learn / use game theory in biz?

Blogger Matamoros April 15, 2018 9:24 AM  

Russia has been called “the White people who failed”. They don’t produce much, they import everything - even their history. The Rus were Ukranians not Muscovites, and Kiev was 3rd Rome not Moscow. But hey, Peter the Great magically renamed and transformed the Duchy of Moscovy into Russia, complete with Ukranian history (story completed by Catherine the Great).

Many have noted that Russia’s ethics are not Western Christian, they are those of the Golden Horde. Push, attack, lie, use whatever you can to advance the State. If a Russian tells you a lie and you believe it he thinks you are a fool; unlike the West where the lier is looked down upon.

Putin has been pushing the U.S. in the paradigm of a weakening, failing U.S., daring the U.S. to do something because if we do he’ll nuke us. Kind of an appeal to the old Better Red Than Dead crowd. Trump’s missle strike was a wake up call to Putin that he/the U.S. will not be bullied and pushed around. It was a pitch to make the batter back up off the plate.

Will Russia initiate nuclear war? No. They have neither the resources, nor the ability to win. Russia produces little, all high tech is imported. The West stopped Putin’s rearmament by sanctions denying them the high tech chips they needed. Russia’s economy has been in slow collapse for several years, and the pace is accelerating.

Putin and the Oligarchs/Siloviki have stolen $3 trillion from the economy, and it sits in Western banks. The Russian people in the outback are beginning to starve, according to friends there. Moscow is okay because it sucks the life out of the rest of the country.

He has to beat the war drums to keep Russians quiet about their steadily falling economy and increasing repression. At the same time Russia has always been about growing the empire. Not to mention falling demographics, etc. Only about 1/3 of the Russian Federation is actually ethnic Russian. The rest are everything from Ukranians, to Finns, to Mongols, to Moslems. War Drums keep all these people in line, and justify repression.

Blogger James Dixon April 15, 2018 10:23 AM  

> In my many years I have heard little but "hate Russia" fed to Americans like a mother's teat to her babe.

Funny, I was never told to hate Russia. I was always told to hate Commies. The two aren't the same. I always understood that.

> Not enough of 'our' muzzies though -- unless he hits Minneapolis... but not even then.

We can take care of our muzzies ourselves, once the rules change.

Blogger Hammerli280 April 15, 2018 10:44 AM  

@186, et. al.: If you dig into Russian history, they were once a Western-oriented power. More specifically, they were aligned with the Byzantine Empire, which which they had a lot of trade. Around the year 950, they were running a constitutional monarchy with a democratic assembly, a good 500 years ahead of their time.

But Russia got stomped by the Mongols, hard. There was no Renaissance for Russia, the Mongols stole it all. Men, goods, culture...it all was stripped.

The Russians are paranoid for a reason. But that paranoia makes them unreliable allies at best.

Blogger Hammerli280 April 15, 2018 10:49 AM  

With regard to Trump, I keep thinking of the campaign. Could I do better in governing? With humility, yes. I understand the Federal bureaucracy better, and am not coming in cold on national security issues. And I'm a damned sight meaner.

But is Trump doing poorly? No. And this sort of smash-and-leave air strike is precisely the way the U.S. should fight. As opposed to yet another prolonged counterinsurgency campaign by the Army.

Pro Tip: The U.S. Army has an institutional xenophobia. They don't do combined operations well, nor counterinsurgency. The American electorate won't stand for a prolonged war, either (and if Vox ever does another book, I may submit an article on this).

One key to successful warfighting is to fight YOUR way. Not your opponents'.

Anonymous Anonymous April 15, 2018 11:03 AM  

Markku wrote:Let's say the cascade is initially along the equator. How much high speed junk would there be above north and south pole? My intuition says, little.
There are a lot of polar-orbiting birds which cross the equator twice per orbit.  As soon as one of those gets turned into a spray of debris, you have junk over the poles as well.  The energies involved are much higher, as some of those birds are in retrograde sun-synchronous orbits and a substantial fraction of their orbital speed is east-to-west while most other launches are west-east.

There have already been satellite losses from space junk; Iridium 33 was lost in 2009 in a collision with Cosmos 2251, and I've seen speculation about 2 more.

GPS sats orbit at 12540 miles, GLONASS at 11,900 miles.  They will be immune to anything going on in low-earth orbit.  So will all the birds in geosync; NOTHING slamming into other stuff in LEO is going to throw debris that high, and anything thrown at such an angle is going to re-enter on the next pass.

Funny that I already plotted out a story line around the Kessler syndrome without even knowing the name.

Blogger Rez Zircon April 15, 2018 11:29 AM  

Trump's missiles hit Douma, which has been noted as a rebel stronghold that frequently lobbed bombs into Damascus. And I'm thinkin' ... Trump knows who the bad guys really are, but the U.S. can't pivot alliances on a dime. So we get lots of noise and posturing against Assad, because we're already locked into that position, but who gets hit? the actual bad guys.

Blogger jb April 15, 2018 12:49 PM  

Hammer #189

2024. By then, the VSG will have given you a great head start!

Blogger Jack Amok April 15, 2018 1:42 PM  

For Russia, this is NOT a fight over a bunch of obnoxious goat-bangers. This is for their Mediterranean Sea port.

Easy enough. Let them have Constantinople (I assume they'll rename it). But, what about the Turks? Who cares about the damn Turks. They've been antagonists for twenty years and bent on Moar Islam.

To really kill the ME you'd have to destroy its oil infrastructure. That would get China (and Japan) in a huge way. The US would hurt a lot but much less so; US net imports are still close to 4 million barrels/day. This is a hell of a lot better than the 12.5 million in 2005, but it is a very long way from oil independence.

If the US and Russia withdrew - militarily and economically - from the ME, how long do you think it would take before the Persians, Arabs and Jews destroyed it all themselves? Either through war or lack of engineering.

China would get hit? Feature not bug. Japan? All those oil tankers that can't safely sail around the Persian Gulf any more can redeploy to the North Pacific and carry oil from North America to Japan. Or Russia builds a pipeline to her Pacific coast, maybe both.

We aren't energy independent? We can be, we just need to open the throttle a little bit on our production, which has been kept low by ME oil prices and enviro regs.

If it costs a little more per gallon, I think a good chunk of that could be made up by less outflows of cash to prop up the goat pounders, and the rest is an acceptable price to pay for ridding ourselves of the corruption.

Blogger Nate April 15, 2018 2:13 PM  

"But declaring oneself off the Trump Train (again), shrieking, crying, and announcing that one will never support him going forward are not the same thing, They are, in my opinion, contemptible."

ah.

yes. Fair enough.

Yet again we are taught the value of athletics. How many of those behaving that way never played sports? Never had to take a tough loss... never had to get back up keep going after giving up a big play two.

They deride it as Sports-ball... but they have never learned its lessons.

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 15, 2018 2:21 PM  

WWIII is guaranteed by prophecy. But, the prophetic pattern is that the repentant generation can delay judgement. cf Siener van Rensburg and also the repentance of Israelite king Josiah in the Bible. The prophecy is specific: Turkey (or potentially, someone in the former Ottoman empire) will goad Russia into initiating WWIII. Russia will cease to exist. So will Britain. America will continue on as a small and puny nation, with no international power. Canada, Australia, and New Zealand will be such hell-holes that the white people there will flee.

Blogger lowell houser April 15, 2018 2:53 PM  

Anne is NOT for Trump. Anne is for ANYONE that will build a wall and deport Mexicans and other native Spanish speakers. If Trump were doing those things at the speed that she wants them done she would brush this off out of hand, as long as it was likely to not include an invasion, occupation, etc.

Carlson, Ingram, Jones, Savage... all have to remain consistent. They all attacked Obama for this sort of thing and a few of them even attacked Bush. None of them are Alt-Right, so they still believe in playing by rules that guaranty that they will go down in noble defeat. But at least they will be consistent in losing.

Blogger FrankNorman April 15, 2018 4:51 PM  

149. Markku April 15, 2018 6:10 AM
Russia will be left alone, which is what it always wanted.


THat gives me a mental image of a large bear sitting brooding on the top of a snowy mountain, in a post-nuclear-war world.
"Russia... stronkest one there is. Russia... only one there is."

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:10 PM  

@180

"I doubt there has ever been extensive trade through Russia. In the early period the great distance made it hard to do. Plus once the Suez Canal was put in it was ever so much easier to go by ship. And even before the canal, ship transit was easier."

When the Mongols came in and took over Kiev (during the "Kievan Rus" period), they came in by just travelling along one of the main arteries of the Silk Road.

The Silk Road was NOT a single Road. In fact, it was a network of roads. Do an image search on the terms Silk Road

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:18 PM  

@186

"Russia has been called “the White people who failed”. They don’t produce much, they import everything - even their history. The Rus were Ukranians not Muscovites, and Kiev was 3rd Rome not Moscow. "

The Rus MIGRATED FROM KIEV ("fled" would be an even more appropriate description) into what is now called Russia. (Russia = the land of the Rus)

Why?

Because the honest ones couldn't stand the Mongols and their typical SE Asian predilections for violence & corruption.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 15, 2018 6:21 PM  

@186

"Many have noted that Russia’s ethics are not Western Christian, they are those of the Golden Horde. Push, attack, lie, use whatever you can to advance the State. If a Russian tells you a lie and you believe it he thinks you are a fool; unlike the West where the lier is looked down upon. "

What you have just describes is UKRAINE -- which is what the Golden Horde invaded (KIEVan Rus'). The honest Rus' fled northwards, using the river systems.

Have you actually READ even one book devoted to the subject of Russian History?

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