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Saturday, April 28, 2018

The suicide of the West

That's the title of Jonah Goldberg's new book, which I expect will be primarily interesting for how Jonah tries to dance around the obvious, based on this extensive interview about it with Russell Moore. I'll be posting my review of it after I finish reading it.

It tends to strike me as an attempt to defend the West while simultaneously de-Christianizing it. The core thesis strikes me as being fundamentally wrong, because "the fundamental form of human corruption" is most certainly not "I don't like your artificial constraints on my human desires and my desire for my group to be victorious."

---

Russ Roberts: It's a fascinating book. It's a disturbing book. It's a somewhat depressing book, at times; and maybe we'll look for some bright spots on the horizon and in our conversation. But I want to start with a paragraph from near the beginning of the book. You say the following

My argument begins with some assertions. Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. Human rights are unnatural. The world we live in today is unnatural, and we stumbled into it more or less by accident. The natural state of mankind is grinding poverty punctuated by horrific violence, terminating with an early death. It was like this for a very, very long time.

Elaborate on that. And talk about what you mean by the Miracle, which is the unnaturalness that we're in the middle of.

Jonah Goldberg: Right. So, what I mean--I'll just start with what I mean by 'unnatural.' If you took a jar of ants and you dumped them on a planet very much like ours, with our atmosphere, ants would do what ants do. And they would build little colonies and they would dig their little ant tunnels. If you took a pack of dogs and you put them in the wild, they would very quickly become a natural pack like they would. If you took human beings, absent all of the stuff that they learned from culture and education today and put them in the wild, they would not all of a sudden start building houses and schools and have startups. They would take to the trees, and have spears, and it would take a long time to discover spears. And they would behave the way that we are wired to behave. One of the core beliefs I have about a definition of--at the heart of conservatism--is this idea that human nature has no history.

And so, when I say that 'capitalism is unnatural': if it were natural, if it were the way human beings, like ants or dogs or any other creature naturally behaves in its natural environment, we would have developed capitalism a little earlier in the evolutionary history of man. We would have developed democracy a little earlier in the evolutionary history of man. In the 250,000 years, give or take, since we split off from the Neanderthals, the amount of time where we had any conception of natural rights--particularly for strangers, right? People within the tribe, that's different. But for strangers, the idea that someone we just met has any dignity or any claim on justice--that is an astoundingly new idea in human history. And, this whole world that we live in--so, a big inspiration for this book is this idea you talk a lot about on EconTalk, which is: Hayek's distinction between the microcosm or the microcosmos, and the macrocosm. And, I take Hayek--I think Hayek is absolutely correct, where he says that we evolved to live in small bands of people--troops, tribes, whatever label you want to call them. And that's how our brains are structured. And our brains haven't changed very much in the last 10-, 11,000 years since the agricultural revolution. And so, this entire extended order of liberty and contracts and the monopoly on violence of the state--all of these things are really new. They don't come to us naturally. We have to be taught them. We have to be civilized--as a verb--into believing in these things.

And this Economic Miracle--and so the Miracle is--and I was heavily influenced by Deirdre McCloskey; and I think she gets a lot right. We can talk about one of the things she might get wrong, later. But, you know, for, what is it, 7500 generations? For 200-, 300,000 years, the average human being everywhere in the world lived on average on about $3 a day. I think it's Todd Buchholz who says that man lived no better for most of man's existence he lived no better on two legs than he had on four. And, it is only when you get this radical change in ideas that comes from the bottom up--what I call the Lockean Revolution, but I don't think Locke gets credit for it. He just simply sort of represents it. For the first in all of human history basically in one place, this little corner of Europe, human prosperity, human wealth starts to explode. And that explosion radiates out around the world and is still doing so today. And that is a miracle. And the reason I call it a Miracle is not because I think God delivered it--the first sentence of the book is, "There is no God in this book."

Russ Roberts: A promise you don't quite keep; but, I know what you meant.

Jonah Goldberg: We can talk about it.

Russ Roberts: That's all right.

Jonah Goldberg: But, what I'm saying is, it's not providential. Right? God didn't suddenly decide to give us all of this bounty. It's a miracle because you people, you, you know, you witches and warlocks of the economics profession have not reached a consensus about why the hell it happened. You know, there is a consensus about the $3 a day stuff. But there is not a consensus about why this miracle or this explosion of rights, liberties, and prosperity happened. And, no one planned it. We stumbled into it by accident. And, my argument is that we should be incredibly grateful for it. And, therefore, protective of it. You only protect those things you are grateful for. And, that's what I--that's sort of the opening precis of the book, I guess.

Russ Roberts: Yeah. Just a couple of comments. I always think of it as the goose that lays the golden egg. If you have a goose that--all of sudden you get this goose that happens to be laying golden eggs instead of regular ones--you'd kind of want to be interested in what keeps the goose healthy and alive, and how this came to happen, as you keep it going. And we seem to be somewhat oblivious of it. I think it's a human trait to be--take things for granted, and to think that tomorrow will be like yesterday. And so, the era of progress we presume is just a natural thing. And, as you point out--it's hard to accept, but it's not so natural.

Jonah Goldberg: Right.

Russ Roberts: And just to expand on the Hayek point, in The Fatal Conceit, he says: This micro-cosmos and macro-cosmos, we have two --we have to have two ways of thinking about the world. In our small families or our bands or our tribes or our communities, we have a more socialist--what you and I would call a Socialist--enterprise. We don't sell stuff to our kids: typically, we share. It's top down, not bottom up. In the family, the parents tend to run things. And, that's very appropriate in a small group that's held together by bonds of love, for genetics--whatever keeps it together. And, he says, we have to have a different mindset when we go out to the extended order--when we are traders and commercial actors. And he said, we have a tendency to try to take the beautiful and poetic ethos of the family and extend it into the larger order. And he says that leads to tyranny.

Jonah Goldberg: Right.

Russ Roberts: In a way, that's--that's what I want to--you might--it's one of the things you are worried about in your book. Which is that the tribalism that we are hardwired for seems to be spreading beyond the immediate family.

Jonah Goldberg: That's right. I think it's worth pointing out: It is disastrous going both ways.

Russ Roberts: Hayek makes that point, yeah.

Jonah Goldberg: Right. Right. It's disastrous to treat the larger society like a family or tribe. But it's also disastrous--getting your g'mindschaft[?] and your Gesellschaft is always a problem. And treating your family like a contractual society destroys the family. And, both are really, really bad. And I agree that it's not just that we are Socialist. I mean, the way I always put it is: We are literally Communist, in the sense that in my family it is: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. You have a sick kid, you don't do any kind of calculus about what their contribution to the family is. You just do whatever they need. And, yeah. So, part of my argument is that--you know, the Roman philosopher Horus has this line where he says, 'You can chase nature without--you can chase nature out with a pitchfork, but it always comes running back in.' And, so, part of my argument is that human nature is always with us. Right? We are born with it. That is the preloaded software of the human condition, and you can't erase that hard-drive. All you can do is channel and harness human nature towards productive ends as best you can. And when you don't do that, human nature will assert itself.

And I think of this in terms of corruption: That, just as if you don't maintain their upkeep--a car, a boat, or a house--the Second Law of Thermodynamics or entropy or just rust will--you know, rust never sleeps. Eventually, nature reclaims everything. And that's true of civilizations, too. And if we don't civilize people to understand this distinction between the micro- and the macro-cosm, what inevitably happens is that the logic of the microcosm, the desire to live tribally which we're all born with, starts to infect politics. And if you are not on guard for it, it can swamp politics. And this is why I would argue that virtually every form of authoritarianism, totalitarianism--whether you want to call it right-wing or left-wing--doesn't really matter to me any more. They are all reactionary. Because they are all trying to restore that tribal sense of social solidarity--whether, you know, it's a monarchy or treating the leader of the country as the father of the country or the Fuehrer or whatever you want to call it. Or whether you are just saying that the entire society is just one family.

Whether it's nationalism, or socialism, or populism--all of these things are basically the reassertion of human nature, which says: I don't like your artificial constraints on my human desires and my desire for my group to be victorious. And that is the fundamental form of human corruption.

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106 Comments:

Blogger Dark Enlightenment April 28, 2018 4:44 PM  

I liked it better when Pat Buchanan wrote it.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 28, 2018 4:56 PM  

Whether it's nationalism, or socialism, or populism--all of these things are basically the reassertion of human nature, which says: I don't like your artificial constraints on my human desires and my desire for my group to be victorious. And that is the fundamental form of human corruption.

Yeah he's got it completely backwards.

Blogger David The Good April 28, 2018 5:00 PM  

You seem to have mixed up your interviewers. Moore is the evil SBC guy.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 28, 2018 5:03 PM  

It's funny how he dodges around what the opposing side of the coin is to family-level dynamics.

The fact of the matter is, he's assuming things about the opposing side of the coin, and he knows he is, and he knows perfectly well that his entire lines of thought are based on those absurd assumptions.

He's assuming that the opposite side of the coin is a sort of "good" control, and guaranteed it'll be control by his tribe, no matter what sort of structure is applied.

Thus he's trying to say that the West's prosperity "just sort of happened" and it's totally not in any way his tribe's fault that it's going away. Totally not parasites!

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 28, 2018 5:05 PM  

It's just another example of (((it's not okay for anyone else to tribal against us))).

Blogger Bogey April 28, 2018 5:06 PM  

@2 I seem to recall this blog discussing a certain group with "low altruism in a high altruism society and a strong in-group preference."

Goldberg's statement pretty much confirms it.

Blogger Dave April 28, 2018 5:06 PM  

Oh gawd.

Blogger Nathan Wright April 28, 2018 5:07 PM  

So it's a literal Book of Jewish Tricks

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 28, 2018 5:08 PM  

Thus The West is "suiciding" rather than being parasitically murdered in order to bring it to its knees and subjugate it -- along with everyone else -- to the new one world government.

Blogger Ned April 28, 2018 5:08 PM  

Thanks for reading it so we don't have to. From what he got wrong in the interview, I'm not sure I could stand to read the whole thing anymore than I could finish Guns, Germs, and Steel.

Blogger LP999-16 April 28, 2018 5:18 PM  

I do not trust or grant quarters to Jonah, Rubin, Rogan, Ben or Beck.

Jonah like Ben will be on Beck's show very soon.

I will look forward to the hosts analysis of the book.

Blogger wolfe April 28, 2018 5:19 PM  

What unholy deal has Jonah Goldberg made that yields him these great book titles? Liberal Fascism; then, The Suicide of the West. Monster clickbait titles, but also good ones.

I'll look forward to your review.

Blogger John Calla April 28, 2018 5:25 PM  

Starting about 2,000 years ago European people really took off. All this prosperity and science and human rights just exploded onto the scene. I can't quite place it. I mean, did any significant thing happen 2,000 years ago that could have triggered this massive increase in human achievement? I can't think of anything.

We must have just stumbled onto it by accident.

Blogger tz April 28, 2018 5:29 PM  

WW1 was the suicide of the West - see Bill Lind.

The universal error, from Andrew Sullivan complaining about Hungary is now dying into an illiberal democracy, or the Cucks, is the futile attempt to have Western Civilization without Christ, and Christianity.

Israel will NEVER be West. They adopt the same secularism and socialism. Rabbis have said that fiat currencies are evil frauds. Tel Aviv was voted as the most "gay friendly" city in the world.

There are THREE pillars as Vox has noted. The insufferable and not to be tolerated one is Christianity. They will accept Roman or English jurisprudence. Even bits of culture. But not even the veneer of Christianity.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 5:30 PM  

@wolfe- It's not a deal with the devil. Goldberg took the title from his far superior fellow National Review writer James Burnham, who wrote a book with the same title in the 60s. Still in print.

I keep asking on Twitter if we're supposed to notice Burnham already wrote that book, but I never get an answer.

Liberal Fascism Goldberg took from H.G. Welles, I think. But that required some creativity. This time it's just borrowing.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 5:31 PM  

@Dark Enlightennent- Burnham, not Buchanan.

OpenID markstoval April 28, 2018 5:33 PM  

What humanity needs now is for the white girls on the right side of the IQ curve to marry in their late teens or early 20s and have 3 or more kids. We need to discurage the low IQ women of all races to breed.

Of course, we need the women who breed to breed with higher IQ men. Then stay married. The kids need a father and a mother; and the kids are the important thing. The family unit is the unit of culture and civilization.

Why do we need civilization? Why advanced civilization? We need to move into the future and continue progress. We can not feed the world's population or continue the industrial society we have at present unless the high IQ men are there to make it happen.

I don't know if it is proper to say here, but we need white people to make the damn machines work. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

(see various things on race realism for more details)

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 28, 2018 5:34 PM  

It's downright disturbing that he could be that duplicitous, but there it is, in the text.

Blogger tz April 28, 2018 5:40 PM  

Lewis On Equality didn't quite prophcize, but managed to describe the glide path into hell.

Blogger pyrrhus April 28, 2018 5:43 PM  

So in a family, strong cohesion and community is good and natural, but in our society, we should all be atomized individuals, homo economicus.....and if groups come along that don't play by these western manorial feudalism rules, well too bad. at least we virtue signaled.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 5:44 PM  

I read a sort of preview of what's in the book in a Goldberg column, though I don't remember the precise context. Maybe it was an actual excerpt from the book. I couldn't get a good handle on it, except to say it came off as typical NeverTrump ad-hoc criticism of whatever they think Trumpers stand for. Atavistic tribalism, or whatever.

The main thesis was about some Miracle or other intruding itself into human history for no apparent reason, and the necessity of protecting this Miracle from encroaching nature. Nature being bad, gross, dirty, and just a no good very bad time. Nature is how everyone else lives and lived in the past, and no explanation is provided as to why Western Man has escaped, for now.

I didn't pick up on how we were supposed to defend the Miracle, except not through tribalism or God. Presumably, the way to keep corrupting nature at bay is by defending whatever liberals stood for half a second ago. Because that's the only answer these guys ever give.

Nothing about whether something unique to Western Man caused this Miracle. The Protestant Work Ethic theory was mentioned merely to be dismissed. Goldberg talks about defending democratic liberal capitalism or whatever he calls it, but this...thing is not rooted in anything else. I don't know where it came from or why we defend it, except that human nature without it is a bummer, man.

Blogger Zimri April 28, 2018 5:47 PM  

John Calla: the Roman Climate Optimum, enabling a boom time for the (then still pagan) Roman Empire. Kyle Harper writes about this in The Fate of Rome.

Remember, Rome didn't even allow the public expression of Christianity until Constantine at Milan in AD 313, I think it was.

Blogger Brett baker April 28, 2018 5:48 PM  

Even Charles Murray credited Christian faith for the West pulling ahead.

Blogger Brett baker April 28, 2018 5:48 PM  

Even Charles Murray credited Christian faith for the West pulling ahead.

Blogger pyrrhus April 28, 2018 5:49 PM  

BTW--Does Goldberg actually believe that John Locke and the Englightenment philosophers had anything to do with the Industrial revolution? I'm sure Taleb would have some juicy comments about such intellectual appropriation...The fact is, most of the unsung entrepreneurs who created the machine age were uneducated tinkerers who had probably never heard of Locke or any philosophers...

Blogger Otto April 28, 2018 5:51 PM  

It's sad to see people without a Christian mind go into deep contortions and anquish about the world. Let His word be your path and you will find discernment, understanding, joy and peace.
BTW a book entitled " Suicide of the West" by Burnham is a must read for all conservatives.

Blogger Zimri April 28, 2018 5:52 PM  

What Christianity DID do (sorry for my autism here, VD) is gave the Roman and post-Roman West (and Byzantium, and Syria) a philosophy that would help preserve the hard-won classical knowledge through to the bad times, as well as the good.

The West had a dark age in 1200 BC as well. Almost no memory survived of the Bronze Age in Greece. Because the Greek religion could not - then - conceive of a monastery, or a state-independent church generally.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 5:54 PM  

Something that stood out to me about Goldberg's new book is the subtitle, which rattles off a series of no-good thingies in proper pop-political mass mass-market book rhythm. The majority of these thingies are boilerplate Conservatism Inc. bugaboos:

Tribalism
Populism
Identity Politics

But guess what also makes the cut. Nationalism. What? Why? I've never known that to be popularly understood as unconservative, unless you were a conservative in 1848 or something.

Three possible explanations:

1). It's an ad-hoc attack on Trumpism, which has co-opted the nationalist label.

2). Goldberg is coming out as (((Goldberg))), and denying nationalism for thee.

3). Conservatism Inc. has always been against nationalism without telling us.

Or combinations of the above.

Blogger SmokeyJoe April 28, 2018 5:57 PM  

10 Ned Thanks for reading it so we don't have to. From what he got wrong in the interview, I'm not sure I could stand to read the whole thing anymore than I could finish Guns, Germs, and Steel."

Well said.

Blogger John XR April 28, 2018 6:00 PM  

lets get rid of nationalism so the west can be overrun by iq 70 africans.

These guys are completely discounting the importance of the individual in maintaining the system. System and individuals should be symbiotic. System doesn't matter if you have a society of cats. Both are important.

Blogger Unknown April 28, 2018 6:01 PM  

This here is an excellent example of the explicit refusal to give credit to God and Jesus Christ. Just a random "miracle"? Wow, palm meet forehead. The worst kind of anti-Christian who absolutely denies the influence of God and Jesus on western thought.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 6:02 PM  

@pyrrhus- Odds are good, considering the Enlightenment is popularly conflated with the scientific and indistrial revolutions and Goldberg hasn't evinced much special knowledge on the subject in my experience.

In fact, the real Miracle that changed humanity's material life came with neither the sciebtscie or industrial revolutions. And it came a long time after Enlightenment.

I'm talking about electricity and the internal combustion engine. They're what really changed the way we live, materially speaking.

Blogger Lovekraft April 28, 2018 6:11 PM  

He mentions the family like communism and if one family member is sick, the family pulls out all stops to care, disregarding the cost.

Sounds great in theory, but when extended to greater society, along with greedy and unchecked growth, massive debt slavery soon follows, not to mention reduction in service a la Venezuela.

So which family is Goldberg referring to? And who defines 'sickness' and approp level of care?

I am wondering if this is touching on the topic of reversing the inter-connectedness of society/ies.

Blogger MickDundee April 28, 2018 6:15 PM  

The book’s subtitle is... Why The Goyim Know and How to Shut It Down

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 6:16 PM  

@84:

I wasn't aware that Peterson didn't believe in God or consider himself a Christian.

Even Jung debunked the myth of secular Christian morality. Peterson does a great job of watering down and perverting his source material.

"The individual who is not anchored in God can offer no resistance to the physical and moral blandishments of the world. For this he needs the evidence of inner, transcendent experience which alone can protect him from the otherwise inevitable submersion in the mas. Merely intellectual or even moral insight into the stultification and moral irresponsibility of the mass man is a negative recognition only and amounts to not much more than a wavering on the road to the atomization of the individual. It lacks the driving force of religious conviction, since it is merely rational."

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 6:19 PM  

Wrong thread.

OpenID ages345 April 28, 2018 6:22 PM  

What humanity needs now is for the white girls on the right side of the IQ curve to marry in their late teens or early 20s and have 3 or more kids. We need to discurage the low IQ women of all races to breed.

True, but this is not going to happen for as long as women are allowed to run their own lives and choose their own husbands. More so, we need to return to women being thought of as property, like they were for all time until the early 20th century. Women evolved in this position and it is what's best for them. (This is not hateful; this would allow women to flourish in the role they were created for.)

Blogger Lazarus April 28, 2018 6:24 PM  

@32

Gutenberg's printing press was the thing that had a miraculous effect on Western development. It was also the thing that led to flooding the world with Bibles.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia April 28, 2018 6:59 PM  

VD, really looking forward to your review of Goldberg's book -- I'm rubbing my hands in gleeful anticpation, given your previous interview with the Jonah during the halcyon days of "Liberal Facism."

Please, please, PLEASE try to to do a 1-on-1 with him. I know it's probably a long shot, but it would be SO entertaining, besides being englightening and all.

I'll load up on the popcorn.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 7:17 PM  

"Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. Human rights are unnatural"

I might say human rights are supernatural.

In any case, I'll go along with democracy and human rights (at least he didn't bring equality into it), but I think different forms of capitalism have spontaneously evolved throughout human history. It's the sort of thing even warring tribes in the midst of anarchy could possibly agree upon.

Depending of course upon how he defines it. He probably degines capitalism within the context of the rule of law, only being found amidst liberal democracy in midern civilization.

In other words, our economic system, whatever it is.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia April 28, 2018 7:28 PM  

Well, I just read the first few sentences of the book in Amazon preview, and already Jonah is in deep trouble. To wit...

"...I think persuasion matters, though you wouldn't know it from the last few years in American life. On the right and left, persuading your opponents is out of fashion, replaced by the mandate to rile up your supporters."

Oh...my....God. For Crissakes Jonah, here is the problem with this pablum.

(1) The GE is THE master persuader. We've never seen anything like him. You just don't get it.

(2) The other side -- the side that we both DON'T like -- has zero interest in your "persuasive" arguments. None. Nada. They want to win. And if we don't STOP them -- not just argue better than them -- they WILL win.

(3) The GE doesn't have a "mandate" to rile up his supporters. He has a mission to get this nation back to principles the undergird a healthy society.

Oh well. Are we surprised? We are not.

Blogger Alphaeus April 28, 2018 7:34 PM  

"Jordan B Peterson@jordanbpeterson "The true liberals need to separate themselves from the identity politics types. The doctrines are NOT commensurate.""

Who wants to be a stupid pussy-ass faggoty worthless liberal these days?

The thing about William B Fuckley was that his specific job to perform in service to the Globalist Brave New World Order was to damage whatever authentic patriotic movements that managed to get organized and off the ground. The John Birch Society episode was only one of many instances of his devilish work. I'm supposing that Professor Kermit is doing the job that Wm B Fuckley is no longer around alive and sucking air and able to do. It's the plausibility factor that does the trick. JPB appears superficially to be on the side of the resistance to the Globalist Brave New World Order, but
in reality he is not at all, he's a key ally operating behind enemy lines as a saboteur.

Because, it's not about the faggots or the transgenders or the feminazi's, not directly, it's about the Bankster's power centers, the central banks and the Derp State networks that they control. The goal of the Banksters is to weaken the Nations so that they can rule without impediment.

Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?



Blogger Alphaeus April 28, 2018 7:45 PM  

""...I think persuasion matters, though you wouldn't know it from the last few years in American life. On the right and left, persuading your opponents is out of fashion, replaced by the mandate to rile up your supporters.""

Jonah Goldberg is a phony baloney plastic banana good time rock & roll poseur. He is not serious when he suggests that we need to try harder to persuade the scorpions not to sting us or the wolves not to eat us. He's just trying to trick us to make it easier for the Left to win with less of a fight or no fight at all, though I'd hope that the Left has given up expecting to win with no fight at all at this point.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 7:48 PM  

@KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia-

Goldberg draws a distinction between persuasion on the one hand and passion on the other. Persuasion apparently consists of facts, reason, and decency (read: bowties). Passion consists I guess of however Trump communicates.

Yet another Beautiful Loser appeal to Buckleyan elevated discourse and Robert's Rules of Order, what-what. This is tailor-made for Vox to tear apart.

If I ever wondered why Vox placed such emphasis on rhetoric, well, it is proving an accurate indicator of who's in the fight and who even knows what the fight is about.

The decency bit is a dead giveaway. I can almost hear him dayins, "Sure, Trump convinces people, but he doesn't *persuade*. Because he makes us look boobish."

Blogger Lazarus April 28, 2018 7:51 PM  

Trump on fire in Michigan

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 7:54 PM  

I was wondering why Goldberg opens with no-God business, considering my assumption that the book is NeverTrump apologia. Because the God issue isn't at the center of NeverTrumpism. Though Christianity versus (((NeverTrumpers))) is a thing, obviously.

Is Goldberg going full parentheses, or is his head so lost in Cocktail Partyland that he thinks no one will listen to him unless he adopts the pose of atheism from the get-go?

Blogger Dire Badger April 28, 2018 7:59 PM  

Wjat is it about the last couple of JP articles that brings in so many weirdos that have no idea which thread to post comments in?

About Goldberg-

You can really FEEL the fact that he's from a low-trust paradigm stuck smack-dab in the middle of a high-trust society?

It's such a jew thing. To be the desert slave haggler smack-dab in the middle of church seems to be utterly natural to them.

Why don't we kill abominations anymore?

Blogger Durandel April 28, 2018 7:59 PM  

Outright denies the roll of Christianity in being the reason for said miracle. Regurgitates the Enlightenment propaganda that the Middle Ages was terrible, miserable, and scientifically backwards. Blatantly decries tribalism while ignoring the behavior of his low trust, in-group nepotistic tribe.

Vivisect this serpent, oh Dark Lord. Goldberg is worse than a liar or a coward, for he’s an outright traitor to God and Christendom.

Blogger PCA April 28, 2018 8:02 PM  

Did he really say "commensurate"? This pseud keeps using level-2 words wrong. "Congruent" or simply "compatible" would obviously have made much more sense.

Blogger Unknown April 28, 2018 8:08 PM  

1) It's becoming increasingly obvious that if you reject tribalism - you get selfish individualism. Love starts with the self, and expands outwards in ever widening circles. If you do not love yourself, you cannot love your family and friends. If you do not love your family and friends, you cannot love your tribe. If you do not love your tribe, you cannot love the rest of mankind.

The choice is not between tribalism and love of mankind - tribalism is necessary for us to feel any love for mankind.

2) I would not take at face value anything a Jew says on the question of tribalism.

I grew up in the Jewish community - Jewish culture has cultural mechanisms which transmit a sense of tribal identity that becomes an unspoken shared assumption. For instance all the holidays and rituals and scriptures celebrate Jewish tribal identity, but they are just "beautiful traditions" not to be taken as seriously as the conscious formulations of Jews. Except that they are in fact formative influences and create a collective consciousness.

This allows a Jew to advocate for non-tribalism in the public sphere while personally having a strong tribal identity, and for other Jews not to be affected by such messages. It may not even be conscious.

This kind of "cognitive dissonance" is a strength of cultures that have "dual modes" of transmitting information - one, a set of unquestioned "traditional practices" that are powerful formative influences, all the more so for appealing straight to the emotions and entirely bypassing the rational mind. The other face presented to the public is on the level of conscious formulation.

White culture, having lost tradition, cannot create a sense of identity based on non-rational traditional practices that appeal straight to the emotions, and relies heavily on conscious formulations, and tends to take the verbal formulations of Jews at face value.

Goldberg may be quite sincere - but because of his upbringing he is also capable of a "cognitive dissonance" that protects him from the consequences of his own beliefs, a luxury denied whites who have to exclusively rely on rationally formulated ideas for the purposes of communication and identity formation.

But this won't last as whites return to tradition.

OpenID thetroll April 28, 2018 8:13 PM  

> True, but this is not going to happen for as long as women are allowed to run their own lives and choose their own husbands. More so, we need to return to women being thought of as property,

Actually, no. All we need to return to is the absence of socially sanctioned hypergamy and consequence-free divorce. The actual predictor of technological progress and capitalism, which is indeed unnatural, is the degree to which natural reproductive patterns -- which are for all practical purposes identical to a chimpanzee troop's -- are restrained. There's two requirements for that:

1. Each woman is reproductively bound to a single man
2. Each married pair is distantly related enough to not concentrate wealth in a single tribe

When those conditions are met, then a) fortunes can be built by trade and industry and b) men who would have no hope of reproducing in a polygamous feudal society can via option a). Capitalism, the growth of the bourgeois class, and advanced technology will inevitably follow.

It so happens that European Christianity provided those conditions more thoroughly than any other society known to history, and therefore we have the modern world. Mind you, those conditions largely arose through the self-interest of the Petrine Church in aggrandizing feudal wealth to itself -- which would still have been an improvement, two social power structures are better than one -- but they were sufficient to unleash the industriousness to create the middle class out of the social dead end which was the previous lot of peasantry.

The problem with modern feminism is that hypergamy and associative mate sorting has the effect of negating both those numbered requirements, and social collapse can be confidently predicted as odds of reproductive success decline. As has, in fact, already been remarked upon widely both that the middle class is disappearing and that low SMV males are dropping out of the Game.

TL;DR How you get a healthy society is that you have as many men reproduce as possible. The combination of Christian morality -- one man, one woman, one marriage -- and Roman Church self-interest -- limiting the power of feudal landlords, the Googles and Amazons of the time, to perpetuate that power -- perfected that in Western Europe. Both have started breaking down over the last three generations. The future will be ... interesting.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 8:28 PM  

You emoloy an overexpansive definition of tribalism. Between the tribe and contemporary society (or lackthereof), we developed a civilization with social intermediaries between the atomistic individual and the abyss of nothingness.

For instance, the extended family, the neighborhood, the community, clubs and teams, church, town, region, country, Christendom, and so forth.

This was true in modern times, too.

If you wish to refer to all that as tribalism, I don't think that's how most people will take it.

Blogger tublecane April 28, 2018 8:35 PM  

@Unknown-

Another person brought up the suicide of the West coinciding with WWI, and your point about subconscious traditions brings to mind Scott Fitzgerald's famous passage from Tender Is the Night where he describes various rituals, symbols, and ephemeral cultural and personal things that compelled soldiers to march to their deaths on one battlefield or another.

We definitely don't have those anymore.

OpenID widlast April 28, 2018 8:44 PM  

"My argument begins with some assertions. Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. Human rights are unnatural. The world we live in today is unnatural, and we stumbled into it more or less by accident. The natural state of mankind is grinding poverty punctuated by horrific violence, terminating with an early death. It was like this for a very, very long time."

I find every single statement he makes to be either partly or completely false. He also seems to be overly fond of unsupported generalities. His book will undoubtedly be an embarrassment for him and a great source for criticism by others.

Blogger Unknown April 28, 2018 8:45 PM  

@ruble came "For instance, the extended family, the neighborhood, the community, clubs and teams, church, town, region, country, Christendom, and so forth."

No, those things exist within the overarching framework of a tribe (a nation, a society). Those things are hugely important as well, and you are right, between the individual and the larger tribal framework, lie countless gradations of communal life.

The key thing is that "communal life" in all its forms must be regenerated, up to the tribe.

"where he describes various rituals, symbols, and ephemeral cultural and personal things that compelled soldiers to march to their deaths on one battlefield or another."

We have to regenerate these things. I am concerned that too much of the nation-building of the alt-right is on the level of conscious, rational, verbal formulations. These things are important but one-sided. I fear we are focusing too little on the emotional side.

I don't think there are any examples of healthy, vital national or tribal cultures that don't have large amounts of rituals and traditions and the like that bypass the rational mind and appeal straight to the emotions.

We have to regenerate these, or create new ones.

Blogger Unknown April 28, 2018 8:47 PM  

That was @tublecane - spellchecker error, sorry.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) April 28, 2018 8:54 PM  

((( Jonah Goldberg )))
I don't like your artificial constraints on my human desires and my desire for my group to be victorious. And that is the fundamental form of human corruption.


projection, thy name is Jew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 28, 2018 9:19 PM  

"I might say human rights are supernatural.

In any case, I'll go along with democracy and human rights (at least he didn't bring equality into it), but I think different forms of capitalism have spontaneously evolved throughout human history. It's the sort of thing even warring tribes in the midst of anarchy could possibly agree upon."


What few, simple, and encompassing "human rights" exist are, ultimately, as close-to-the-chest as your spirit is to your soul, and most of them exist solely in and of the Divinely given nature.

Capitalism is very simple. It works great, right up until you have parasites conspiring to leech off it. If they aren't purged, capitalism becomes a system of robbery by whichever raiding parasites are high on the pile currently.

What different forms you perceive are only the single healthy version, and the various types of parasitic afflictions and their varying degrees of concurrent instability.

Blogger dienw April 28, 2018 9:33 PM  

The moment Goldberg started declaring civilization/human organization into societies I stopped paying attention to the remainder: he exposed himself to be illiterate: Edmund Burke wrote about the natural/unnatural paradox back in the 18th century: man out of his own nature has created society and civilization; hence, though society and civilization are artificial creation not existing in nature, they are still natural.
Goldberg cannot be taken seriously if he hasn't read Burke's essays.

Blogger Quilp April 28, 2018 9:45 PM  

"And this is why I would argue that virtually every form of authoritarianism, totalitarianism--whether you want to call it right-wing or left-wing--doesn't really matter to me any more. They are all reactionary. "

Complete surrender.

Blogger Dire Badger April 28, 2018 9:48 PM  

Thanks Dienw, That was kind of my point as well. Why are the dams of Beavers, the hills of ants, or the (oddly sick) society of the Bonobos considered 'natural', while the buildings of man or his cultural constructs are not?

Blogger Darwinian Arminian April 28, 2018 10:02 PM  

I look forward to Vox's review, and I too will hold my judgement until I've read the book -- but if this interview is any indication, Jonah will continue cucking to the Left and attributing the legacy of Western civilization to a clever fiscal policy. Couldn't help but notice that he's happy to refer to Deirdre McCloskey as "she"; even Benny Shapiro said he'd balk at that.

The @GlomarNeverDies Twitter smacked Jonah last week over a lot of the same points that he tried to make in this interview. Find it if you can; It's really good. Key quotes:


" 'Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. Human rights are unnatural.'

Capitalism has occurred spontaneously in lawless spaces (e.g. among pirates, in frontier territories without effective government). The other two? Entirely unnatural.

'We stumbled into modernity accidentally, not by any divine plan.'

The fuck 'we' did. Modernity is the result of Mediterranean and Northwestern European civilization evolving over thousands of years and winning over competing cultures, whether by persuasion or force.

'It is not self-evident that our Creator endowed humans with unalienable rights.'

It is to Western Europeans.

'You can't persuade an atheist that God's in your side any more than you can persuade a Christian you're right because Baal says so.'

Hmmm, so alien cultures and religions won't accept the premises upon which this country was founded? Go on . . . "

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) April 28, 2018 10:04 PM  

((( Jonah Goldberg )))
But for strangers, the idea that someone we just met has any dignity or any claim on justice


hospitality towards strangers and wayfarers has been a value of the Levant since time immemorial.

Jews will actually argue that one of the reasons God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was because they violated the norms of respect that were to be observed towards visiting strangers.

this would be in contrast to Abraham, who welcomed strangers into his tent and feted them.

so, right there, we know Jonah is Lying. the Torah itself describes many such instances. ~5000 years ago ( or whatever Abraham is supposed to be ) is not 250000 years. but it IS well before the Wealth explosion that he's talking about.

and it was already a cultural expectation.


((( Jonah Goldberg )))
And this Economic Miracle



Bait and Switch.

it's not an "Economic Miracle". it's a Productivity Miracle.

Sumeria ( from whence Abraham came ) had Money and Usury and international Commerce.

the most basic family or tribal unit has Division of Labor. ie - the Men will focus on the hunting, the Women on the gathering. the Men will roam further afield, the Women will stay closer to the hearth. some will gravitate towards fishing or harvesting or trapping or crafts, etc.



Russ Roberts ... paraphrasing Hayek?
In our small families or our bands or our tribes or our communities, we have a more socialist--what you and I would call a Socialist--enterprise. We don't sell stuff to our kids: typically, we share. It's top down, not bottom up. In the family, the parents tend to run things.


God damn, this is stupid.

Socialism is NOT simply a societal structure in which people "share" things. it's also aggressively Egalitarian. ie - people don't have authority over other people.

the traditional Patriarchal family structure ( especially in Polygamy ) is as non-Egalitarian as it gets. sure, the Father may "share" his bounty with his wives / offspring, but what the hell does that have to do with "Socialism"? is his word not Law?

that's a perfectly unremarkable Lord / Serf dynamic. ie - the Family exemplifies the Monarchical system ( the original meaning of 'Right' ), NOT a Socialist one.


Russ Roberts:
And he said, we have a tendency to try to take the beautiful and poetic ethos of the family and extend it into the larger order. And he says that leads to tyranny.


'Tyranny' typically being a form of one man rule.


But, you know, for, what is it, 7500 generations? For 200-, 300,000 years, the average human being everywhere in the world lived on average on about $3 a day. I think it's Todd Buchholz who says that man lived no better for most of man's existence he lived no better on two legs than he had on four.


wat?

the Pyramids were built on $3 / day? the South American megastructures were built on $3 / day? the wondrous temples of India were built on $3 / day?

$3 / day is a starvation diet with almost nothing for shelter or clothing. i don't for one damn second believe that the ancients of Egypt ( or wherever ) created their wonders of the world on a starvation diet and wondering whether they were going to have a hearth fire every night.

somebody be lyin their ass off.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 28, 2018 10:22 PM  

Semi-OT
In his rally in Washington Township, Michigan, Trump promised that when the current continuing resolution runs out Sept 28, if Congress doesn't provide specific, explicit funding for the border wall, he WILL shut down the government.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXoynz3xZOs


time 1:50:30

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 28, 2018 10:24 PM  

Darwinian Arminian wrote:'We stumbled into modernity accidentally, not by any divine plan.'

The fuck 'we' did. Modernity is the result of Mediterranean and Northwestern European civilization evolving over thousands of years and winning over competing cultures, whether by persuasion or force.


To the contrary, (((we))) did stumble into modernity accidentally, not by any divine plan. God was done with the Pharisees by 70AD, and when they stumbled into our modernity, it was not by Divine instruction.

If (((Goldberg))) thinks it's all a lucky accident, it may be because he and his had no part in making it.

Blogger So Meh April 28, 2018 10:27 PM  

There is a passage/scene in Steven King's "The Stand" where the surviving people from the plague gather in Boulder, Colorado have their first Town Hall meeting. There is a motion that "The Constitution of the United States and the Amendments" be unanimously passed. They are/were. Afterwards, the elderly Professor of Sociology, who made the motion, says he was surprised they passed so easily or were passed at all. I've thought that was an interesting insight. Given today's standards, if society had to start over, I don't think they would be passed. I think the American Republic experiment would be over. Magic dirt fail.
The second, something similar to Goldberg's thesis is from Robert Heinlein., “Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”
We live in a time of plenty within a ~high trust society. As the ~high trust pillars of our society are broken or stretched thin and the time of plenty diminishes bad luck will be the new normal. Magic dirt fails again.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) April 28, 2018 10:48 PM  

25. pyrrhus April 28, 2018 5:49 PM
The fact is, most of the unsung entrepreneurs who created the machine age were uneducated tinkerers who had probably never heard of Locke or any philosophers...



i think you would be shocked at how well read many of the European production culture were. remember, that was largely a PROTESTANT milieu.

and Protestants studied the Bible incessantly, so that they could identify the ways in which the Roman church was corrupt.

the Printing Press made Literature of all types cheap enough for the masses to consume. and a Literate populace could comprehend the Scriptures for themselves and discern when the Priests were lying.

Blogger Dad29 April 28, 2018 10:55 PM  

Pretty clear that Jonah never read any metaphysics nor any serious scholastic philosophy. And that's a problem if you pretend to write a short history of human progress.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 28, 2018 10:56 PM  

So Meh wrote:There is a passage/scene in Steven King's "The Stand" where the surviving people from the plague gather in Boulder, Colorado have their first Town Hall meeting. There is a motion that "The Constitution of the United States and the Amendments" be unanimously passed. They are/were. Afterwards, the elderly Professor of Sociology, who made the motion, says he was surprised they passed so easily or were passed at all. I've thought that was an interesting insight. Given today's standards, if society had to start over, I don't think they would be passed.

Everyone loves the Constitution. It's a living document, and it says that everything that's good for the government is good for us too.

Seriously, every unconstitutional thing our government does has been found constitutional by courts which take that approach. Even the progressives love the living document.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 28, 2018 11:00 PM  

bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) wrote:and Protestants studied the Bible incessantly, so that they could identify the ways in which the Roman church was corrupt.

A much better idea would be to study God's word to better understand God.

I suppose I'm not a Protestant, because I feel no need to Protest the Roman Church.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella April 28, 2018 11:02 PM  

I thank each and every one of you, Mr Vox, and all your dread ilk, for what discussions you have. I don't have a thorough education, so this is so enlightening.

Mr Goldberg let Palestinian prisoners get abused under his watch. He looked the other way when his friends abused prisoners. That's so far off from civilized!!!

Louisiana, for example, has Angola Prison. The prisoners print and sell tee-shirts with "Angola, a gated community." They have a barbershop, a farm, a blacksmith. These are violent, criminal men. They've built a more civilized society than this soft-handed interloper.

The signature achievement of Protestantism was teaching everyone to read and write. They mostly tended to write things that interested them: farming tracts, machine diagrams, romance novels. That was what priests did more often than really getting all the details of Christianity into the heads of their pupils: they got reading and math into them. I mean, it's a tenet of Lutheranism: you praise God by doing what you do best, to the best of your ability. And, well, you read and have your own free opinion on those subjects.

And, well, in Catholic lands with illiterates; they had communication with painted and sculptured stories, and daily to weekly readings, acting outs, memorizations, and masses with readings. There was a whole tapestry of communication. It's kind of where some people are now.

Why on earth is this awful little man citing Hayek, anyway? Hayek was a Jewish, Hapsburg courtier. He wouldn't know an agricultural revolution if it bit him on the rear. The top people in Hapsburg lands were shorter than English poor people: I've got the museum catalogue of their finery that was on tour a year ago: it's like asking North Koreans to comment about the economics and faith of South Korea in present time: their height alone tells a hard story.

Blogger select star April 28, 2018 11:35 PM  

"Thus The West is "suiciding" rather than being parasitically murdered in order to bring it to its knees and subjugate it -- along with everyone else -- to the new one world government."

Exactly but the murderers and their accomplices are not going to admit that. Thus the need for a verbal smokescreen by Jonah who won't confront the crime scene let alone the criminals.


'It is not self-evident that our Creator endowed humans with unalienable rights.'

It is to Western Europeans.


Where's that high IQ "abstract thinking" from the (((usual suspects)))?

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) April 28, 2018 11:40 PM  

70. Ominous Cowherd April 28, 2018 11:00 PM
A much better idea would be to study God's word to better understand God.



God's word doesn't have anything about Indulgences. nor does it permit an unmarried priesthood.

Luther had 93 more un-Biblical innovations by the Catholic church. you might wish to consider investigating them.

Blogger Daniel April 28, 2018 11:56 PM  

>>And this Economic Miracle--and so the Miracle is--and I was heavily influenced by Deirdre McCloskey.....

Goldberg loses me right there. This so-called Deidre McCloskey is one Donald McCloskey, some economist who cut off his testicles and prances around in a dress. A man who is deeply sick, with a sick mind, from which come sick and confused thoughts. And this man is one of his sources?

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 29, 2018 12:00 AM  

bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) wrote:God's word doesn't have anything about Indulgences. nor does it permit an unmarried priesthood.

Luther had 93 more un-Biblical innovations by the Catholic church. you might wish to consider investigating them.


Yes. Eventually, in response to Luther, they cleaned up some of those 95 messes.

None of that is my problem. The Romans can read their bible if they wish. Or not. With Poop Francine at the helm, they have enough problems without us piling on, and this wouldn't be the place anyway. We should probably not go further off topic.

Blogger tublecane April 29, 2018 12:01 AM  

@63- "Tyranny" we get from Greek and it denotes not merely one-man rule but rule unbound by law or custom. They use it to describe people who have broken tradition to become rulers. Overthrown the government, or what have you. As opposed to a hereditary monarch who is merely carrying on a dynastic tradition.

Now, we have no tradition of one-man rule in this country (though there is a distant one in the Mother Country). But we do have a tradition of authoritative presidents acting extra-constitutionally (not that the other branches don't do that, too). The worst examples in my opinion being Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, and LBJ.

Though they act beyond the law, we've come to expect that to be part of the game, as it were. But only if he's amenable to elite control. Nixon, for one, didn't have the full support of the Establishment, and they snapped back at him.

Trump has ruled not so lawlessy as any of them. Partly because he lacks a pliable Congress, court system, press, or "intelligence community." But he's been highly effective, and the Establishment doesn't like him, so they'll pretend he's tyrannical.

A tyrant to them is someone in power who does things they don't like.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 29, 2018 12:02 AM  

Daniel wrote:This so-called Deidre McCloskey is one Donald McCloskey, some economist who cut off his testicles and prances around in a dress. A man who is deeply sick, with a sick mind, from which come sick and confused thoughts.

I read a few of his papers. As I recall, he is pretty firmly leftist, and your description of his mind and thoughts is probably quite accurate.

Blogger tublecane April 29, 2018 12:32 AM  

@71- I assume Hayek came up because that guy read him and the Fatal Conceit just happened to come into his head. Not because it was particularly germane.

The fatal conceit, by the way, of the book Fatal Conceit is that extended social orders like the kind we have in our civilization can or should be the product of reason. I don't remember anything about the family analogy for government specifically, but that would be just one variety of faulty model would-be social engineers dream in their intellectual air castles.

That's something else entirely from familial analogies having no place in politics or always leading to tyranny. The idea was part of our remote traditions from Christianity and European history.

Blogger YclepedBobAli April 29, 2018 1:14 AM  

"I don't like your artificial constraints on my human desires and my desire for my group to be victorious." Ah yes, that's what nationalism is.

- Don't behave like the Jews Goyim, because that would not be advantageous to us.

This entire excerpt is screaming 'don't be like us! We won't like it! We know us! We know what tribalism is! We practice it ruthlessly! Don't be like us! Now you're discerning it, it's bad!

Everything is upside down:

"...if we don't civilize people to understand this distinction between the micro- and the macro-cosm, what inevitably happens is that the logic of the microcosm, the desire to live tribally which we're all born with, starts to infect politics".

What he really means is, people are starting to be educated about the disjunction between my people's macro fellow white people face and micro predilections. So let's re-educate them that the micro/macro difference is bad, otherwise, our own singular infection might be diluted.

It's like Freud, obsessed with wanting to ficken or kill various relatives, deciding that was just humanity expressing itself, not him, no not him, just humanity.

Goldberg says human nature is reasserting itself, as if he hasn't been trying to banish and expunge human nature from Tabula Rasa man and all their pet revolutions to change nature for decades. That's why he is a cuckservative.

Lol, familial relations are 'communism' because 'to each according to need' - go neck yourself Goldberg. Yeah because in families everybody is equal.

Capitalism isn't unnatural - capitalism is 'I'll trade you x for y'. What's unnatural is the Federal Reserve system and usury.

Treating a nation as a family leads to tyranny. Well that might be true in Israel.

What is a family comprised of? People who are alike. If you have a nation of people who are alike, there is much less of a chance of tyranny within the family. That is due people who are like often thinking alike and respecting each other alike as a result.

What Mr Goldberg means is that nations comprised of people who are like means potential tyranny to those are unalike. Like me, Mr Goldberg!

So, goy, don't ever form a nation with familial bonds like the founding fathers envisioned, or like Israel. That leads to 'tyranny'. Fraternity = Tyranny, unless it's us. Then it's not tyranny, it's the inevitable and inexolerable result of a non-existent high average IQ.

"...tribalism that we are hardwired for seems to be spreading beyond the immediate family."

Lol - if he gave a damn about Leftist tribalism he'd have written this book a loooong time ago. No, that's the right kind of tribalism. I mean what is this trite trash. Oh, now it seems to be spreading beyond the family? Now?

'Not providential'.

Yes it is providential. Every aspect of western civilization developed from understanding of the natural law and synthesis of the natural law with the discernment of positive laws using the scientific method to discover the natural order.

That's providence. Because the Natural Law only exists by virtue of the generosity of God.

I'm so sick of these aliens telling us their alien civilization is us.

I don't even care if Goldberg says he is a Christian. He is a Christian like the Vandals were 'Roman'. This is errant trash.











Blogger YclepedBobAli April 29, 2018 1:19 AM  

Goldberg acts as though economic development couldn't happen in a Christian society. "No God in my book, we've betrayed the free market! We must sacrifice more Christian babies to our God, the economy!"

Read the first chapter of Thomas Woods 'How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization' page 36. Mr Woods outlines how in the 1990's an archeomettalurgist found a Cictercian Iron foundry near Rievaulx Abbey in England dated from the 16th century. The iron ore samples taken showed slag as low in iron content as slag from a 2018 iron furnance.

What was the key technical development that spurred the industrial revolution proper. The ability to separate iron from iron ore.

Had Henry VIII not confiscated the Church properties in 1532, the Cistercians would have ushered in an industrial revolution 200-250 years before the one we got. It would have been vastly more humane, tempered by the Natural Law and theological, not market conceptions of man.

It would have spread through Europe, as the Cistercians had hundreds of monasteries, all model factories in their particular localities, with common facilities.

The Cistercians would have disseminated the technology through all their Monasteries, and given it to any other order that wanted it.

But Christianity can't foster science. 'God is not in my book' Goldberg. He's right. God isn't in the Talmud or the Torah or any of that dross of Rabbis telling each other how much to lie to everyone outside the Tribe.

"I don't like your artificial constraints on my human desires and my desire for my group to be victorious. And that is the fundamental form of human corruption".

I can't think of a better set of simple sentences that best describes the resentment of the Jews to Christian natural law and order.

I can't wait for Vox's response to this gar-bage. How do these people decide what we think?

I apologise for all the Jewish takes. Having read a fair bit of their work, it's now like my gaydar for this neurosis is finely tuned. It just comes of this passage like rank Pollen in Summer.

Blogger SciVo April 29, 2018 4:03 AM  

"But is [nationalism] good for the Jews?"

Blogger SciVo April 29, 2018 4:06 AM  

YclepedBobAli wrote:I apologise for all the Jewish takes. Having read a fair bit of their work, it's now like my gaydar for this neurosis is finely tuned. It just comes of this passage like rank Pollen in Summer.

Right there with you, man. What has been seen, cannot be unseen.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 29, 2018 5:08 AM  

The German poet Heinrich Heine said that where they burn books they will soon burn men, too.

Reading Jonah talking about his book I understood exactly what Heine meant.

I’d be tempted to put a match to both of them.

Blogger Cliodyn Cycwatch April 29, 2018 6:09 AM  

YclepedBobAli:

.. a Cictercian Iron foundry near Rievaulx Abbey in England dated from the 16th century.


From my fingertips to your eyeballs, how many individual laser devices do you suppose were used, closer to 10,000 or 100,000?

Blogger Stilicho April 29, 2018 7:31 AM  

Enlightening that Goldberg thinks patriotism is the fundamental form of human corruption. I wonder if he makes any (((exceptions))) to that rule?

He isn't an ally, not even a misguided one. He is an enemy of the right and of western civilization. Like Vox said in another post, he wants to keep living in the treehouse after he cuts down the tree. This whole "miracle" explanation is nothing more than a deux ex machina explanation necessitated by his refusal to acknowledge the existence of the tree.

His concept of capitalism is as some sort of modern miracle that occurred ex nihilo is equally flawed. The Romans would be surprised at his assertion as would any number of raiding bands throughout history.

OpenID ages345 April 29, 2018 7:58 AM  

All we need to return to is the absence of socially sanctioned hypergamy and consequence-free divorce. The actual predictor of technological progress and capitalism, which is indeed unnatural, is the degree to which natural reproductive patterns -- which are for all practical purposes identical to a chimpanzee troop's -- are restrained.

We certainly need to get rid of no-fault divorce, as well as divorce being viewed as a very grave and serious sin.

But all of your goals, and more, are accomplished by limiting the freedom of women, again, returning to the way it was before women's suffrage and back to time immemorial. Women are not created or evolved to live in the male sphere (and vice-versa, btw).

I know it sounds mean and unenlightened, but there are even some women who advocate strongly for this. I'm not saying men should be able to beat, or in any way mistreat their wives, but that there needs to be a secure hierarchy.

OpenID ages345 April 29, 2018 8:00 AM  

We certainly need to get rid of no-fault divorce, as well as divorce being viewed as a very grave and serious sin.

This was poorly phrased. It should have said: We certainly need to get rid of no-fault divorce, and divorce ought to be viewed as a very grave and serious sin.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 29, 2018 8:12 AM  

The author should be sweeping streets in Tel Aviv for a living, on the other hand Jonah is proving Vox's thesis that the IQ gap is pretty much just propaganda.

OpenID yclepedbobali April 29, 2018 8:17 AM  

Cliodyn Cycwatch wrote:YclepedBobAli:

.. a Cictercian Iron foundry near Rievaulx Abbey in England dated from the 16th century.

From my fingertips to your eyeballs, how many individual laser devices do you suppose were used, closer to 10,000 or 100,000?



Here is the citation:

David Derbyshire, "Henry 'Stamped Out Industrial Revolution, " Telegraph [U.K], June 21, 2002, see also "Henry's Big Mistake, " Discover, February 1999.

They were the articles referring to the original work by archeometallurgist Gerry McDonnell.

I can understand the scepticism. But there it is. The Cistercians were renowned for their heavy equipment.

It's almost like this astounding fact isn't reported widely because it would make Christians look amazing, or something.

Check it for yourself.

Blogger Pale Male April 29, 2018 8:50 AM  

Dire Badger wrote:Why are the dams of Beavers, the hills of ants, or the (oddly sick) society of the Bonobos considered 'natural', while the buildings of man or his cultural constructs are not?
It's the difference between evolution and artifice.  A ground hog can't just decide that it's too dangerous being a ground squirrel and build itself a dam and a lodge and live as a beaver.  Humans can just decide to go live in Antarctica or space for a while and build the stuff to make it happen.  It's a whole different set of mechanisms.

Evolution can be remarkably flexible, but artifice is vastly greater both in speed and scope.  That's what makes humans so special.

Blogger Avalanche April 29, 2018 9:05 AM  

"when I say that 'capitalism is unnatural': if it were natural, if it were the way human beings, like ants or dogs or any other creature naturally behaves in its natural environment, we would have developed capitalism a little earlier in the evolutionary history of man."

So, he must not be familiar with the sense of "fairness and unfairness" that "pre"-exists in capuchin monkeys? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg (3 min.) (And it is already pre-wired into dogs, and birds, and chimps...)

And how, then, does he account for the trade / barter system(s) that we have taught chimps (and lesser primates)? Granted, they never developed the concept of money or barter on their own. (They never needed to.) How is 'trade' not a precusor to capitalism?

Oh wait, no, they do have barter: they will *trade*, in the wild, food for a grooming. They have a clear sense of "I give you, you give me." (Literally 'scratch my back'!) It may not require consciousness; but it may: the ones who stint on 'payback' get rejected/ignored.)

And then, let's look at bats (even further down on the scale, eh?). In some species (I don't remember which), the females go out searching for food, and come back and share the food with all the babies, not just their own (extended genetic family). When experimenters artificially 'pumped up' the food sac -- the visual signal that this mother had brought back food -- with air, so there was no food to feed other babies with; the other mothers whose babies did not get any, shunned the babies of those artificially 'selfish' mothers. Didn't need a contract and a lawyer -- it's apparently instinctual. (Oopsie for Goldberg!)

Blogger Avalanche April 29, 2018 9:41 AM  

@42 "Because, it's not about the faggots or the transgenders or the feminazi's, not directly, it's about the Bankster's power centers, the central banks and the Derp State networks that they control. The goal of the Banksters is to weaken the Nations so that they can rule without impediment."

And if he stands up and declares this to be so, he will immediately be declared anathema, probably jailed in Canada, certainly fired; have his books burned and all his videos pulled off line; and his effect thereafter on the world -- on awakening the normies to just how bad it has gotten -- will be exactly what?

How is it so many do not recognize that, when living behind enemy lines (and are we ever), standing up and denouncing the Powers does not result in a revolution and the uprising of the normies -- it results in the normies running screaming and pointing at the "traitor." (Can't think of that movie where the alien plants 'replace' people -- ends will Eliot whatshisname shrieking at the woman who had escaped with him? Though it was Triffids; but the descriptions don't match. Those are our normies, right now.)

What was the number? One in four East Germans were reporting on neighbors and friends to the state? If any of them had stood up (and some did) -- were they hailed and the populace rose up to wipe out the vicious control of the govt? Or were the 'traitors' just jailed and killed?


When you are trying to socialize a horse to entering a trailer, so you can take him where you want him to go; you do not start by hitting him with a cattle prod and forcing him into the trailer. You lay trails of grain, you offer bait if he comes near the trailer. You feed him his dinner, first as the base of the loading ramp; then on outer edge of the floor, then further in, and further, until he is happily eating dinner in the stall. Then you can accustom him to the tailgate going up. And so on.

When "we" rant that Jordon or Stefan or Jared (or any of our partial allies) are not 'going far enough' -- they are not starting with the cattle prod and slamming the door on the 'prey' we are hoping to capture -- we are making a mistake. There is, there must be, a difference between graduate level ("adult") knowledge and elementary school (childish) knowledge. So, in some areas, Jordan has and shares adult knowledge; in others, he's still sucking a pacifier and throwing his toys (at us).

(pace Dark Lord, I am not suggesting Jordan didn't step on his ... with hob-nailed boots on; absolutely he did. But, maybe we don't exile the child, but try to teach him? And yes, I agree completely: not your problem, not your task, not your interest.)

Blogger Alphaeus April 29, 2018 10:16 AM  

""When "we" rant that Jordon or Stefan or Jared (or any of our partial allies) are not 'going far enough'"

There's a difference between those who don't go far enough and those who go in the wrong direction. I personally tend to give people I like such as JPB and Stefan Molybdenumeaux the benefit of the doubt and chalk up their nonsensical statements to misapprehension rather than malice. But whatever the motive, nonsense needs to be challenged, if the nonsense happens to be relevant and damaging to the cause of rescuing Western Civilization.

Blogger Cloom Glue April 29, 2018 1:06 PM  

Unknown wrote:1) It's becoming increasingly obvious that if you reject tribalism - you get selfish individualism. Love starts with the self, and expands outwards in ever widening circles. If you do not love yourself, you cannot love your family and friends. If you do not love your family and friends, you cannot love your tribe. If you do not love your tribe, you cannot love the rest of mankind.
...
But this won't last as whites return to tradition.


I agree and say, add to the beginning of the list "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.", per Jesus Christ.

Separately, (I am not contradicting "unknown") I caution those who use the "atomisation" narrative and attack the individual, to remember there are two individuals, the one who loves God and has some Holy Spirit, and the one who does not, and is with Lucifer.

The attack on the individual, to promote collectivisation, is a false argument. The individual presents himself in a different way, when he is converted to Christ. There is no collectivisation, tribal solution, which attacks the individual and complains simplistically about atomisation. The Holy Spirit individual is the building block of Western Civilisation. That is why you will hear, even atheists and agnostics who are from western heritage, bristle at the attack on the individual. There must be something still alive inside them from their family.

The Holy Spirit is nearly tangible, a real thing, not to be dismissed as though it is not the builder of the group.

So it is more than return to tradition. It is a return to the Holy Spirit in the individual. It cannot be faked.

Love of self can get you into a false self entrapment; cerebral or somatic. For example, the narcissist loves his image, his false self. Love of God, and meditation on the sacred heart, untangles that knot.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 29, 2018 1:22 PM  

"A tyrant to them is someone in power who does things they don't like."

A tyrent to them is someone in power who has no interest in their Pizzagate parties, other than to eliminate the practice around the globe.


There, fixed it for you.

Blogger DonReynolds April 29, 2018 3:01 PM  

"My argument begins with some assertions. Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. Human rights are unnatural. The world we live in today is unnatural, and we stumbled into it more or less by accident. The natural state of mankind is grinding poverty punctuated by horrific violence, terminating with an early death. It was like this for a very, very long time."

I have never thought Jonah Goldberg had anything to write....and this proves it. Capitalism is the most natural thing in human existence. No matter where you go or what races are involved, before any king or government ever existed, human beings were acting in their own self interest. THAT is capitalism. Any other form of economic organization must be created by government and imposed. ONLY Capitalism is naturally-occurring. (Why would he even mention Capitalism at all, since they clearly do not believe in Capitalism?)

The rest of Goldberg's assertions are an admission that the Leftist mania of egalitarianism is not only improbable but never existed....like ever. Democracy is not unnatural. It is imaginary. Human rights? You have got to be kidding. Again, the natural extension of egalitarianism....the touchstone of every Leftist Liberal.

No....there is no democracy and there never was. Not in the family. Not in the community and certainly not in the nation. So Jonah Goldberg needs to stop sucking on that bruise. But he needs the extensions of egalitarianism because nothing in the Leftist Liberal universe means anything without the assumption that ALL people are magically equal. They are not. They never were, nor were any of their ancestors. Democracy is the egalitarian imperative because suddenly everyone is equal. Women are the equal of men. Negro are the equal of Caucasian. Old are the equal of young. Of course that is rubbish. And that, boys and girls, is why Jonah Goldberg knows it as the Suicide of the West.

Blogger DonReynolds April 29, 2018 3:14 PM  

I consider the title Suicide of the West to be a sneer on the part of Jonah Goldberg of the very popular book by the same title written by James Burnham in 1964....which I still have. (It was a very important book for me in college.)

For Goldberg to write a book by the same title is a bit like the modern all-black movie Birth of A Nation, which thankfully was not a remake. Goldberg's own book is not a remake either of Burnham's book and will never be as popular.

Blogger Andrea Daley Utronebel April 29, 2018 3:34 PM  

Jonah Goldberg is a Zionist Jew. He is for Jewish identity and interests. He is against white identity and interests because it competes with Jewish power. In order for Jews to maintain their supremacist power, they must force whites into White Submissivist mode. And that is why Jews attack white identity. It's like a master-and-slave relation. In order for the master to make the slave support the master's freedom, he must suppress the freedom of the slave.

Blogger Andrea Daley Utronebel April 29, 2018 3:38 PM  

West was white and western before the coming of Christianity. So, Christianity isn't essential. Also, Northern European barbarians had a culture prior to the coming of Greco-Roman stuff.

The real pillars of the West is (1) white race (2) white control of white lands (2) unity of white men and white women.

Blogger tublecane April 29, 2018 4:06 PM  

@96- "Why would he even mention Capitalism at all, since they clearly do not believe in Capitalism?"

By Capitalism he probably means a very specific sort of economic order, only found in post-"Miracle" modern "liberal democracy."

Neocon, ISI-types talk about "democratic capitalism" or "liberal democratic capitalism" all the time. I can only guess what it means, (Though on practice I know it means we have to run other people's countries to keep the price of oil in some range.) It's not as if they have in mind the economic equivalent of "social democracy" or crony capitalism, even if it is significantly socialisty and full of cronies.

Like everything else they believe in, it probably means whatever economic system leftists were defending two seconds ago.

They are intellectually tethered to libertarianism, or at least the free trade aspects. Not the whole kaboodle. That's one of their few abiding principles, which explains why they reference people Hayek so freely. Despite the fact that he wrote an essay titled "Why I Am Not a Conservative."

Blogger tublecane April 29, 2018 4:15 PM  

@97- That's why I keep asking Goldberg about Burnham's book on Twitter, but he never responds. Is it supposed to be a joke? A sneer? An appropriation? I don't know.

With Birth of Nation, at least you knew that moviemaker holds D.W. Griffith in contempt. Burnham was a National Review guy, and I haven't heard of him being unpersoned. If the Goldbergs of the world have disavowed him, they haven't been very emphatic about it.

It's unfortunate that Suicide of the West is one of the few Burnham books still in print and reasonably priced. The Managerial State is seminal, but fairly expensive. The Machiavellians is a tour-de-force.

That guy was one of them "ex"-Trotskyites and a bit loopy, but he was a Noticer and far more honest than the Goldberg.

Blogger tublecane April 29, 2018 4:21 PM  

@99- "West was white and western before the coming Christianity"

Okay, but pre-Christian Western Civilization is dead.

"Northern European barbarians had a culture prior to the coming of Greco-Roman stuff."

A culture, but not civilization. Anyway, most of their culture and especially their religion is dead.

The Classics, barbarian folkways, European stock, Christianity. Those are the pillars of Western Civilization, and those are the only pillars.

Blogger Avalanche April 29, 2018 5:21 PM  

@93 There's a difference between those who don't go far enough and those who go in the wrong direction. I personally tend to give people I like such as JPB and Stefan Molybdenumeaux the benefit of the doubt and chalk up their nonsensical statements to misapprehension rather than malice. But whatever the motive, nonsense needs to be challenged, if the nonsense happens to be relevant and damaging to the cause of rescuing Western Civilization."

Well written: I agree. And I describe my 'work' as 'planting seeds' that I hope will lead to growth of new understandings. It shocks folks to have a nice old lady laying out hard truths... But if I can get them to think about even the small weirdnesses around them, it sometimes encourages them to ask or look further.

(And I love the new spelling Stefan's name. Yah done good.)

Blogger Alphaeus April 29, 2018 5:35 PM  

"(And I love the new spelling Stefan's name. Yah done good.)" I get him mixed up with the silver-gray refractory metal of Group 6 (VIb) of the periodic table.

Also, I must confess that the main reason I quickly forgive those who don't go far enough is I feel very guilty of that my self. I find that when I go to bed every night I feel guilty for not having punched a half dozen or so people in the face that day.

Blogger DonReynolds April 29, 2018 7:32 PM  

@102 tublecane
"Northern European barbarians had a culture prior to the coming of Greco-Roman stuff."

A culture, but not civilization. Anyway, most of their culture and especially their religion is dead.

It would be a mistake to imagine that the barbarian tribes (that invaded virtually all of the Roman Empire when they went out of business) were somehow anti-Roman or anti-Western Civilization. That would be an incorrect view. The barbarian tribes (without exception) saw themselves as the NEW Romans....the NEW tenants. They did not invade the weakened Roman Empire to destroy Rome but to BE the new Romans...and they soon went to work restoring the empire, first as the Carolingians, and later as the Holy Roman Empire. (It only took three centuries for the Franks to re-create the Roman Empire.) They were not opposed to the Roman, they simply wanted everything that Rome had built. They were the true form of invaders, not destroyers.

Had they been able to capture the Roman Empire intact, they would have done so. For generations, these same barbarians have tried to piece together the empire that had fallen. Now it is called the European Union.

Blogger B.J. April 30, 2018 11:35 AM  

Of course capitalism is natural. Humans are not ants. What an idiot.

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