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Monday, May 07, 2018

Truth and the true purpose of Jordanetics

Just a few of the typical responses of Jordan Peterson's cargo cultists to my latest critiques. The interesting thing, to me, is the way the goalposts keep moving, and the way they keep getting more hysterical, the more directly I address what their Broken Prophet has written or said.
I thought Vox Day was supposed to be some deep thinker of the Alt Right (or was it something called The Dark Enlightenment?) I never bothered to follow it up. My Latin is small to none but isn't Vox Dei the "voice of God"? Hard to take someone with that handle seriously. Now I see all these meandering videos attacking JBP and his book.  VD's attacks are embarrasingly weak. If he doesn't like JBP's squeals against The Right he should just suck it up and watch the drama.

This video is reminiscent of a Cenk Uygur TYT hit piece. You sir, have not represented yourself well here.

You are a fucking moron. He's never claimed to be of the Left, on the Right, conservative, Christian,........nothing. Your straw-manning and emotionally driven OPINION of what he may or may not be is no criticism. You Vox, don't define Conservatism, Christianity, philosophy, psychology, and certainly not Jordan Peterson with your armchair quarter-backing sideline "criticisms".

I'd like to show you how much of a Gamma male you are now Vox, and not you 6th grade self either. You are pompous, self-aggrandizing coward. You sir, are a jealous loser.

Your such a scrounge little bitch Vox.

Wow. Rekt. Wait, no, it's just more self congratulatory Vox Day overestimating himself as he's been doing for decades.

How do you know what someone thinks without direct engagement of question and answer to clarify? That is communication 101.

New it! All this a ploy for you to get attention. Dude Peterson doesnt even know you exist. Peterson fans barely know you exist. He became an intellectual figure through his book Maps of Meaning and his peer reviewed studies that have over 10,000 citations. Your a bloger and failed writer.

Dude. You have less then 3k subscribers. Your comment section on that video is bellow 300. The only People watching you and agreeing with are your mindless fans. How bad do you have be at this game to have been around for a decade, upload regularly, appear on big shows like Stefans and only 2.4k subs. Your a hack.

This guy is projecting harder than anyone I've ever seen.

Obviously, you have neither read Maps of Meaning nor watched his lectures. JP is a psychologist not a philosopher like you. JP is writing for an audience of lower IQ , immature folks. You are not his audience.

It honestly just seems like you're trying to get attention and are jealous of his success

Vox seems to be jealous of petersons succes. You have become irrelevant vox

What seems nuts to me is devoting so much time to a man you obviously disrespect. Why does it bother you so bad that a great many people resonate with Peterson and seem to be helped by him? When you write your book let's see how well it sells. You come across as a jealous narcissist. Maybe people like Peterson because he doesn't talk down to them. I got more out of just the contents page of his book than your entire video. Grandiose word salad is a perfect description if you look in the mirror. Would love to see a debate between a man with common sense and one with a chip on his shoulder. Good luck with your Sour Grapes series.
An interesting way to defend the man who supposedly encourages criticism, to be sure. The other thing that is interesting about the responses to my critiques is the way that the definitions of Jordan Peterson's "truth" keep growing in number. Here are four of the various definitions presently on offer.
  1. If you are going to go for a definition of truth that JBP subscribes to, one should probably go with the one that JBP mentions: pragmatism and the book that he recommends: The Metaphysical Club by Louis Menand.
  2. Peterson subscribes to a pragmatist version of the Coherence theory of truth.... On Peterson’s stated theory of truth, an idea can be thought to be true (or false) at a “micro” or “proximal” level – e.g., at the level of a scientific experiment, or at some other level that does not take the morality of the idea into account – yet actually be false (or true) at a “macro” or “distal” level that includes a consideration of whether the idea is pro-survival or anti-survival (i.e., good or evil). For Peterson, it is the macro/distal level – the level that includes a consideration of the morality of the effects of an idea – that determines the idea’s truth or falsity.  For Peterson, the standard of the moral truth – i.e., of the goodness – of an idea is that the effect of the using or acting upon an idea is ultimately pro-survival (of the individual, or a number of individuals, or all of humanity).
  3. Peterson isn't so much ascribing to a coherence theory of truth, its more a pragmatic form of Nietzsche's Perspectivism. Perspectivism would hold that there are no objective metaphysical truths, or if there are they are completely unknowable so it doesn't matter anyways. This is a bit rooted in subjective idealism and phenomology and existenitalism...something something about consciousness/mind being fundamental, that reality is only the perceptions of human consciouness and not in any way independently existening. And then you add on the Will to Power and the human Will being the central force in the universe, yada yada yada. (We are talking about a literal madman here...) So with that basis every Will is subjected to its perspectives, its own way of interpreting its perceptions. Thus no truth is absolute and objective, for any such truth would need to be capable of transcending all limits on perception. 
  4. My understanding is that Peterson argues that human interaction and agency works through logos and narrative, and so can be considered a separate system from objective, scientific reality. Following from that, he says that the narrative structure is embedded in the psyche, and its archetypes can embody psychological truths that he considers more meaningful than scientific truths.
Keep in mind that Peterson fans insist that he speaks with precision and clarity, even though they subscribe to at least five different versions of his definition of truth. So let's hear what Jordan Peterson himself has to say about truth:
  • I don't think facts are necessarily true. So I don't think this scientific facts, even if they're correct from within the domain that they were generated, I don't think that that necessarily makes them true. And I know that I am gerrymandering the definition of truth, but I'm doing that on purpose.
  • Your truth is something only you can tell, based as it is on the unique circumstances of your life. Apprehend your personal truth.
Now, what other school of thought do we know that insists truth depends upon adherence to a narrative? Contrast those seven definitions of truth with the two that I favor:
  • Aristotle: To say that that which is, is not or that which is not is, is a falsehood; and to say that that which is, is and that which is not is not, is true.
  • Jesus Christ: Let your Yes be Yes, and your No, No. For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
In any event, I believe I have finally ascertained the central purpose of Jordanetics and identified the core of Jordan Peterson's perception of himself as a world savior, thanks to Maps of Meaning. I will go into more detail in a future post and Darkstream, but in essence, Jordanetics is the consequence of the failure of the New Atheism and the neo-liberal world order, particularly as it relates to immigration. No one can believe in the sexy secular science fiction future anymore, and the fruits of mass immigration and multiculturalism have created a growing longing for the Western societal ideal of 1950s Christian White America, which, unlike all the various alternatives proposed, has the benefit of actually having existed and known to function more or less as advertised.

Jordanetics is a desperate attempt to stave off the grand historical trends presently playing out, to prevent the pendulum from swinging back, to avert the growing pressure to rebuild Western societies that are European and Christian. But it won't work, it can't work, because by every historical and sociological measure, Man is long overdue for war on a societal level, if not a civilizational one. And remember, homogeneous nations have usually risen out of the ashes of heterogeneous empires.

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96 Comments:

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 07, 2018 11:16 AM  

"Obviously, you have neither read Maps of Meaning nor watched his lectures. JP is a psychologist not a philosopher like you. JP is writing for an audience of lower IQ , immature folks. You are not his audience."

Well, I think we're done here.

Blogger tz May 07, 2018 11:18 AM  

Even if you could find a way to pin down his notion of truth and find severe contradictions, he would just move the definitions or goalposts again.

Conversely, they want 1950's Christian White America without it being Christian - the sexual decadence and perversion is just too much fun, and feminist grrl power needs to be kept, and Gay Marriage - White - European norms and culture and the Western Canon of art, music, and literture but somehow retain the multicultural aspects - and American where we applied the principles, ideas, and heart of Christendom to create a simularcum of the City of God, as much as fallen man could do to build on the foundations of the Declaration and Constitution.

They want the fruits but are unwilling to plant the trees. They want fresh orange juice, but settle for TANG. Tech is the new salvation, replacing honor and integrity with FICO scores.

That is the essence of their cargo cult. "The Gods of the Copybook Headings", was, is, and always will be evergreen as the essence and nature of man doesn't change.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 07, 2018 11:21 AM  

But Peterson must want man to change, and he must believe we are capable of change, since he is an evolutionist.

Blogger Helixfreak May 07, 2018 11:25 AM  

I'm making the JP fandom work for me. He's coming to Dallas at the end of May and I just put my tickets up on StubHub for $240 each . That's more than three times what I paid - and they're the cheapest ones. Prices range from there up to $600. The mind reels.

Blogger Jack Ward May 07, 2018 11:27 AM  

Vox said: ' created a growing longing for the Western societal ideal of 1950s Christian White America, which, unlike all the various alternatives proposed, has the benefit of actually having existed and known to function more or less as advertised.

Yes, this. My formative years from about 5 to 15 were in this time frame. Looking back, I do long for that level of society. As kids we would leave the house in the am, play in the woods all day, coming in only to eat and then at night. No one worried about us. There may have be perverts around; I never saw any. It was safe. Not perfect, but sane.

Blogger L' Aristokrato May 07, 2018 11:28 AM  

Jordanetics, or Lobster-Kingism, if you will, is yet another attempt to re-package, and re-sell the zeitgeist of globalism, equality, Holocaustianity, and so on.
Underneath the veneer of Peterson's merits as a speaker, some admittedly good ideas, and what manages to comes across as bold anti-SJWism, what you truly have is Neo-Cuckservatism, in both intent, and ultimate results.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan May 07, 2018 11:28 AM  

Anything beyond critique is probably sh*t.

So that means to me that the shroud of political correctness lies over a big heaping pile

Blogger Wanderer May 07, 2018 11:29 AM  

Dude talks like a faggot.

Blogger Shamgar May 07, 2018 11:29 AM  

Just quote back to them- Rule 6: Set your house in perfect order, before criticizing the world.

Blogger Junior Jefferson May 07, 2018 11:33 AM  

Your "criticism" that Peterson is a "lunatic" and a "whack-job", first-class insights though they are, are ultimately benefiting him as he is routinely smeared as a member of the "alt-right", which as you recognize is an erroneous characterization, so this gives him some nice leverage. My advice is that it is unwise to pick on the mote in your brother's eye while ignoring the beam in your own. In other words, I find nothing particularly Christian or Christ-like about anything you write, VD. Sound and Fury, signifying nothing. I know this because based on Peterson's analysis of Christian archetypes, I've reread the New Testament. ;)

Blogger August May 07, 2018 11:36 AM  

I guess none of these guys notice JP called you an anti-semite for doing math, huh?

Blogger tz May 07, 2018 11:36 AM  

As to the time spent on the subject, the veiled threats, the traitors, the quislings are far greater threats than actual enemies. SJWs and Antifa are clear in what they are doing and will do. The Cuckservatives and moderates, and FakeRight do more damage because they either outright betray or fail when it matters.

I'd use #FakeProphet, but we've had #FalseProphet for thousands of years. The False Prophets always say the King is going to win, the enemies routed, the threat will dissolve without fixing the moral rot while the true Prophets point out the evil and draw a line directly from those evils to destruction.

Peterson creates a facade of righteousness. Satan as "Angel of Light". But his words and teaching are death.

His rules are feminized. There is no heroic masculine strength and warrior battles against evil. And that is one thing the men of 1950 USA had even though it was often hidden. The Christian Crusader Knight. Chivalrous but terrible in his righteous fights. Nothing Peterson recommends requires courage, or even prudence or temperance. Even fortitude is kept to small doses. Nor is authority to be questioned. Why does a clean room matter? Why should I take these meds instead of asking if they are helpful, necessary, or if there is a better way - I should keep eating donuts and taking insulin boosters instead of cutting out the carbs so I don't need to be dependant on the medicine. The last virtue that is actually a vice to JP is thought itself. If truth is this nebulous and unknowable thing, why bother thinking things through? Thought - reason - is to discover what is true and right, but as Aristotle, etc. defined them. Even a sophist like Sam Harris has the light of reason, even if he uses it badly. Peterson says that Sophia - reason and philosophy - don't exist any more than God does. They are myths that may or may not be useful.

Blogger Wanderer May 07, 2018 11:36 AM  

Also, Jordan Peterson's definition of truth is identical to that of how SJWs define it. He's careful not to mention the words "feelings" and "emotions", but the idea that facts aren't facts and that people have "your truth" is 100% pure SJWism.

Blogger VD May 07, 2018 11:40 AM  

I find nothing particularly Christian or Christ-like about anything you write, VD.

That's because you don't know what truth is.

Blogger tz May 07, 2018 11:43 AM  

I would love to set my own house in order, but the world invades it and wants me to accept perversion, take my guns, take most of my wealth, insure I can't plant a garden of healthy food or have chickens, controls the kind of car or appliances I can buy, etc. They want to convince wives to have affairs then divorce and take everything, indoctrinate my children against everything true, good, and beautiful while rendering them innumerate and illiterate. They want to send my job to Mexico, China, or India or replace me with some Alien who will do a bad job but more cheaply and makes things "diverse".

If the world wasn't trying to change me, I wouldn't have to retaliate. Leave me alone and my house would be in order. It is coming to the point that many are saying "Goodbye Cruel World!", but not meaning suicide by it.

Blogger Phelps May 07, 2018 11:47 AM  

No one can believe in the sexy secular science fiction future anymore, and the fruits of mass immigration and multiculturalism have created a growing longing for the Western societal ideal of 1950s Christian White America, which, unlike all the various alternatives proposed, has the benefit of actually having existed and known to function more or less as advertised.

This one rings more true to me than most. What JBP is trying to do is to recreate Western White Christian Civilization without the West, white people, or Christianity.

It's like trying to bake bread without flour, salt or yeast. At the end of the day, he holds up a glass of water, and says, "behold, the new bread! It fills you up if you drink enough and drives away the suffering of hunger, and we've known all through history that if you don't drink water, you die."

Blogger Justin Bailey May 07, 2018 11:49 AM  

"Jordanetics is a desperate attempt to stave off the grand historical trends presently playing out, to prevent the pendulum from swinging back, to avert the growing pressure to rebuild Western societies that are European and Christian."

Funny you mention this. I remembered Peterson says in an interview that he's trying to save the "Kekboys" from right wing ideology. I went back and looked it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ilTZR2GfRE

Jordan Peterson: "What do you think should happen in this polarized world if you're dealing with people that you think are being attracted by a pathological ideology? What I do is talk to them and say look, why not make yourself into an individual and get the hell away from the ideology? And so alot of these kids are lost in the underworld, in nihilism, and they turn to these ideological solutions because they don't know what else to do, and they're angry. I have something better for them to do. Grow the hell up, and sort yourself out as an individual. ... I get letters from people all the time that say 'I was moving towards the fringes, and I'm not doing that anymore. I see why it's wrong.'"

Blogger tz May 07, 2018 11:55 AM  

CS Lewis in one of the short items noted Christian has a specific definition. Vox is a Christian. We can debate heterodoxies but that doesn't change on which side of the line he is on.

He used the example of "Gentleman" which originally meant land-owner (like Gentry and Gentrification), but ended up meaning someone with good manners. But that is a significant change.

Especially with Judaeo-Christianity, someone who is nice, e.g. helping Muslim refugees settle in Minnesota is considered somehow being "Christian" even if they are an atheist pedophile because they are "nice".

The first Apostles were all persecuted, and with the exception of John, were executed, many by slow torture. They weren't very "nice", they were very "true". Christendom is the fruit of a mature tree planted by Christ and watered with the blood of the Martyrs.

The great medieval cathedrals took three generations to build. We can't build them today - we can build tall sterile buildings of steel, concrete, and glass, but we can't build something great. We can compose good music, but we have no Bach or Mozart. No Gothe or Shakespear. No Newton or Aquinas. We did have at our peak - in the days of our grandfathers - a great spark where almost every child had a portion of the classical greatness - they could think and act virtuously and heroicly. Not just a few peaks but the valley floor was raised. Now we have a sunken valley and mere foothills where we can barely see how far we've fallen.

Blogger Eric Castle May 07, 2018 11:59 AM  

And there in lies the true Luciferian element. By the twisted redirection of your personal sage, you “reread” the truth, or so you claim. I highly doubt you reread anything anyway.

This is actually an ironic case where Paul’s warning about “contrary gospels” even coming from “an angel from heaven” are to be anathema (Galatians 1) hits close to home.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora May 07, 2018 12:02 PM  

I think Jordan Peterson's conflates honesty with truth. The truth clearly has to correspond to something that is actually real, but you can be fully honest while being mistaken about the truth. At least, this was the initial impression I had when I heard his defense of the bible in his talk with Harris. It sounded to me like he was saying the bible was honest while not being (provably) true to actual reality. Obviously he takes it further than this but I do think this is a part of the confusion.

Blogger pyrrhus May 07, 2018 12:03 PM  

@12 His rules are feminized. There is no heroic masculine strength and warrior battles against evil. And that is one thing the men of 1950 USA had even though it was often hidden. The Christian Crusader Knight. Chivalrous but terrible in his righteous fights. Nothing Peterson recommends requires courage, or even prudence or temperance. Even fortitude is kept to small doses. Nor is authority to be questioned.

Well put, and explains why Peterson's stuff always annoyed me....Though I concede that it may have helped some extremely broken individuals.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook May 07, 2018 12:12 PM  

Is your appearance on the Alex Jones show still happening today?

Blogger LBascom May 07, 2018 12:12 PM  

Looks to me Peterson's definition of truth is specifically formulated to deny the concept of evil, i.e., Satan's greatest trick is convincing the world he doesn't exist.

Blogger VD May 07, 2018 12:14 PM  

Yes. Monday, May 7th, 2:30 Eastern

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook May 07, 2018 12:15 PM  

VD wrote:Yes. Monday, May 7th, 2:30 Eastern

Woo

Blogger Solaire Of Astora May 07, 2018 12:21 PM  

@23. LBascom

The problem in finding his definition of truth is that he actually does the opposite of what a good thinker should do. He takes multiple ideas and then calls them all one thing. What is 'speaking your personal truth' other than simply being honest? You don't have a special unique truth, you just speak honestly from a position of imperfect knowledge. Then he goes further into strange crap about what kind of reality we live in and stuff that makes my eyes glaze over.

Contrast that with someone like Vox who will take single words which people use to describe different ideas and splits them into more precise forms bringing clarity. A good example is scientistry, scientody, and scientage.

Blogger Resident Moron™ May 07, 2018 12:22 PM  

He’s a bit like certain Christians who don’t believe the Bible is true in the sense of being historically accurate but that it’s “true myth” and to hell with the consequences of self-contradiction.

Blogger Arthur Isaac May 07, 2018 12:38 PM  

That's because you don't know what truth is.

The truth is Psalm 64. And there is not a man now or in the future who is going to stop it. The overcoming mentioned in Revelation is personal.

Blogger Archaeopteryx May 07, 2018 12:45 PM  

OT: The Cato Institute's senior immigration policy analyst, (((Alex Nowrasteh))), echoes self-applied and self-proclaimed globalist, is currently getting humiliated by Morlock Publishing on Twitter, using Alex's own white paper against him.

https://twitter.com/MorlockP/status/993506396758073344?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Blogger Heian-kyo Dreams May 07, 2018 12:52 PM  

Jordan "Iching" Peterson, gamma wrangler.

Blogger El Rojo May 07, 2018 1:05 PM  

Junior Jefferson wrote:... blah blah... My advice is that it is unwise to pick on the mote in your brother's eye while ignoring the beam in your own. In other words, I find nothing particularly Christian or Christ-like about anything you write, VD. Sound and Fury, signifying nothing. I know this because based on Peterson's analysis of Christian archetypes, I've reread the New Testament. ;)

I've read the New Testament too. A great book in which we are taught to abhor wickedness and sin.

Matt 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Whenever some fake christian trots out some version of "that's not very Christlike!" "What would Jesus do?"

I like to remind them that overturning the lies of Sin Merchants and driving them out with whips is an absolutely an acceptable reaction...

Blogger ikacer May 07, 2018 1:18 PM  

Poe's law definitely applies for many of those replies. I do have defenses for a couple of the points you raise, VD, though I'll leave you to judge their merit as I'm not very familiar with Peterson.

First, much of your criticisms hinge on the assumption that Peterson is projecting when giving poor advice such as "take your pills." This assumption may be wrong. Peterson has worked with a lot of crazy or depressed people as a clinical psychologist, so another possibility is that when making his book on life advice he just used the advice he was accustomed to giving to crazy people.

Second, with Peterson's weird usage of the word true, my initial impression was that Peterson actually has the conventional understanding of truth but that he is trying to convey the concept of Gnon by also referring to it as truth. They are two separate things so his vacillating definition ends up confusing both himself and the person he is talking to. Substitute "Gnon's will" for "true" in cases where true is used incorrectly and it starts making sense.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 1:24 PM  

ikacer wrote:Substitute "Gnon's will" for "true" in cases where true is used incorrectly and it starts making sense.
Or you could substitute "Fucking made-up shit" for "truth" in his writing, and it would be substantially more accurate.

Blogger S'mon May 07, 2018 1:26 PM  

"No one can believe in the sexy secular science fiction future anymore"

That's why I enjoy 'The Orville' - as a nostalgia-comedy of '80s Star Trek, I don't need to believe it's an actual possible future, that there will be white people leading interstellar expeditions of mildly multicultural crew in the 25th century.

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 1:28 PM  

12 Rules for Life: A Book I Wanted to Like
http://www.tfp.org/12-rules-for-life-a-book-i-wanted-to-like/

Blogger Chesapean May 07, 2018 1:31 PM  

Peterson's "gerrymandering the definition of truth" can be defended if you assume the final definition of truth remains to be written.

Consider the proposition that reality itself may be intelligent, or conscious/alive in some sense we cannot currently describe with precision or certainty. In that case, the honest philosopher would properly catalog the many characteristics and behaviors of nature, but admit to not knowing nature's mind itself.

This circumstance, if real, is an untenable position to find oneself in, but an inescapable one, too, at least for the time being.

Blogger Arthur Isaac May 07, 2018 1:32 PM  

Psalm 46....although 64 fits Peterson and his treatment of Christ well.

Blogger Daniel May 07, 2018 1:35 PM  

"Your truth is something only you can tell, based as it is on the unique circumstances of your life. Apprehend your personal truth." - Jordan Peterson

"“Anything that isn't true for you in Scientology, when you study it carefully, isn't true.” - L. Ron Hubbard

Blogger Peter Gent May 07, 2018 1:39 PM  

The Cuckservatives and moderates, and FakeRight do more damage because they either outright betray or fail when it matters.
They are the ones who open the rear gates and let the enemy inside the wall. Their essential characteristic is that of a traitor.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 07, 2018 1:43 PM  

El Rojo wrote:Whenever some fake christian trots out some version of "that's not very Christlike!" "What would Jesus do?"

I like to remind them that overturning the lies of Sin Merchants and driving them out with whips is an absolutely an acceptable reaction...


Jesus was not nice. Neither should we be.

Also see Luke 22:36. Better to be naked than unarmed.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 1:44 PM  

Chesapean wrote:Peterson's "gerrymandering the definition of truth" can be defended if you assume the final definition of truth remains to be written.

Consider the proposition that reality itself may be intelligent, or conscious/alive in some sense we cannot currently describe with precision or certainty. In that case, the honest philosopher would properly catalog the many characteristics and behaviors of nature, but admit to not knowing nature's mind itself.

Dude, lay off the acid.
The final definition of Truth, the Logos, was not written. He was send out from the Creator and died for your sins.

Blogger Peter Gent May 07, 2018 1:49 PM  

Jesus said that "I am the way, the truth, and the life..."

As such, he defined way to truth, what it is, and that having it brings life. So the real question is, how does HE define truth.

Peterson reminds me a bit of Pilate and how he had a hard time knowing what truth was, even though it was standing in front of him.

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 1:49 PM  

Where There Is No Hatred of Heresy,
There Is No Holiness
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n092_Heresy.htm

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 1:52 PM  

One Sins by Not Becoming Duly Irate
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n007rp_Irate.htm

But it must be DULY irate. Also see:

Deadly Poison of Anger
https://youtu.be/6Gn0vuQ7rqs

Blogger R Webfoot May 07, 2018 1:58 PM  

"I will go into more detail in a future post and Darkstream, but in essence, Jordanetics is the consequence of the failure of the New Atheism and the neo-liberal world order, particularly as it relates to immigration."

I did notice that he talks up his Self-Authoring Program as if it as capable of getting outsiders to join Western societies competently and confidently.

He did some speeches in the Netherlands about identity and culture; I shall have to look for transcripts.

Blogger Simon May 07, 2018 2:16 PM  

I like Peterson. He gets the loonies frothing.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville May 07, 2018 2:18 PM  

All that is missing is for L. Ron Peterson to write some crappy sci-fi about post-apocalyptic human barbecues run by bipedal canines demanding worship of the one true Dog and his prophet Buddy.

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 2:18 PM  

Like the pitiful tattoo phenomenon, the anointing of the likes of Jordan Peterson as a messiah is, at bottom, yet more proof of the catastrophically impoverished state of the modern soul.

Blogger OGRE May 07, 2018 2:36 PM  

I stand by my description as stated in #4. And to be perfectly clear, I am no supporter of JP and I think he poses a significant danger. I'm pretty convinced hes unwittingly laying the groundwork for an eventual 'church' for an anti-christ.

I wrote #4 before reading the Harris transcript, just based on the JP interviews I'd heard, particularly with Rogan. After reading the Harris transcript and listening to some of his videos on pragmatism, I'm more convinced thats the correct take on it.

JP is using American Pragmatism to answer the problems that arise from Nietzsche's Perspectivism; which is a development of Idealism (Kant, Hegel, Berkeley); which arose in response to Descartes' Theory of Ideas; which resulted from Descartes' claim to dualism in opposition to Aristolte's holymorphism. In other words, these aren't new ideas.

Perspectivism is one of the foundations for post-modernism. For Neitzsche truth is just a metaphor, useful in as much as it aids the Will to Power. The post-modernists took that a step further and ended up with "There is no truth but power." JP wants to bring that in the other direction, and hes applying his version of Pragmatism in response.

But none of these are really answering the question "What is real?" but rather "How do I determine if my belief is justified?" They aren't making metaphysical claims but epistemological ones. And this is where Harris and JP started butting heads. Harris was on board at first, but then he wanted to move forward and posited a realist conception of objective truth. JP dodged and went the other way and started talking about Nietzsche's 'truth.' They started off understanding each other (Harris apparently having studied under one of the foremost neopragmatists), but as the interview wore on they were talking past each other more and more.

Does JP believe in an objective external physical reality? I can't tell. Based on his interviews he'd say theres no way to know such things; he never really gets there. Hes taking Pragmatism a bit too far though, much farther than Pierce ever conceived. Because if JP is wanting to use the pragmatic method to make metaphysical statements about truth rather than epistemological ones then hes gone way off the reservation.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants May 07, 2018 3:40 PM  

Yes. I keep trying to say this, (though probably not well), everything I read from Peterson sounds like it comes from a woman's (feminized) brain.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear a woman was writing his material.

I do think it's wrong of Vox to try and bawx Dr. Jordy in, expecting just, like, *one* definition of truth. He has many, many truths.
It's like his unwillingness to be bawxed in by "binaries" on his belief in Gawd. He likes to keep it...loose.
It's like, what's is the meaning of *IS* anyway, Bucko?

Blogger SDaly May 07, 2018 3:43 PM  

VD post on JP (5/3/18): I noted that Jordan Peterson claims "evil is the desire to cause suffering, where suffering is not necessary." This demonstrates that he doesn't know a single goddamn thing about real, material, conscious evil, which has absolutely nothing to do with the desire to cause suffering, but rather, the desire to do as one pleases.

VD quoting JP today: It is far better to render Beings in your care competent than to protect them. And even if it were possible to permanently banish everything threatening—everything dangerous (and, therefore, everything challenging and interesting), that would mean only that another danger would emerge: that of permanent human infantilism and absolute uselessness. How could the nature of man ever reach its full potential without challenge and danger? How dull and contemptible would we become if there was no longer reason to pay attention? Maybe God thought His new creation would be able to handle the serpent, and considered its presence the lesser of two evils. Question for parents: do you want to make your children safe, or strong?

So JP's work is the foundation for a justification for paedophilia, right?

Blogger Weouro May 07, 2018 3:44 PM  

It does sound like a trickier iteration of the Dawkins idea of being a cultural christian. Or perhaps a melding of cultural christianity with the adore the mysterious/mystical universe thru science led by Neil D Tyson and the Scott Adams approach to atheism which allows people to nominally hold onto their beliefs. Sort of like allowing someone to keep his home furnishings the same while jacking up and moving his entire house to a different location.

Blogger Isaac Miller May 07, 2018 3:53 PM  

Have to say, I was initially resistant of your critique of Peterson. But I see where I was deceived.

I mused early on when I first started listening to his material that he had sort of "split the baby" by attempting to mine meaning out of archetypal stories while at the same time stabbing them in the back with existentialism and liberal humanism. But I didn't see it as a sinister thing.

It reminds me of how Modernism invaded Christianity of nearly all stripes; they made biblical stories pleasantries or a Christian version of Aesop's fables - practicalizing them - while undermining them with rationalism and scientistry. A particularly clever version of it, but certainly Luciferian.

Blogger Lovekraft May 07, 2018 4:08 PM  

Here's some context for where these Jordan fans are coming from:

Canada went full multiculturalism under Pierre Trudeau in the 80s. Mass immigration from 2nd world followed.

The children of the boomers slowly realized that there will be some major competition in years to come from the more aggressive and motivated immigrants for the plum gov't/corporate jobs. Plus the boomer children were brought up in a heavily feminist/LGBT/multicult public education system that actually ignored or downplayed masculine aggression and competitiveness.

So here we are with the current crop of Jordan followers - a generation or two removed from the 1980s and they don't really see the fallback jobs even. Automation, immigration of course taking up service jobs, offshoring etc. These students are frightened and drifting and see JP as some anchor who'll guide them through the storm (a storm of mounting public debt, immigrant enclaves/voting blocs etc).

Blogger Crew May 07, 2018 4:09 PM  

Jordanetics is a desperate attempt to stave off the grand historical trends presently playing out, to prevent the pendulum from swinging back, to avert the growing pressure to rebuild Western societies that are European and Christian.

Those attempting to use Jordan for that purpose will be pissed at being thwarted ... stay safe!

Blogger #6277 Hammer May 07, 2018 4:13 PM  

"I don't think facts are necessarily true. So I don't think this scientific facts, even if they're correct from within the domain that they were generated, I don't think that that necessarily makes them true"

This from the same man who became famous for refusing to using various gender pronouns and insist there's only male and female. You're right Vox, he doesn't even live by his own philosophy.

Blogger Nate73 May 07, 2018 4:16 PM  

I'd be curious to know what workforce participation rates were for women before the 1950s. When people bring up the 1950s post-war boom as an ideal one thing that's never touched on is that the wife with the white picket fence doesn't really have much to do at home. Vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, etc were all invented by then. I think that's part of what led to the feminist (((movement))), women were bored and easily led astray by the Betty Friedan's of the world.

Blogger Junior Jefferson May 07, 2018 4:38 PM  

VD has born false witness in his crusade against Jordan Peterson. His crusade has blinded him to the truth. The truth is, Jordan Peterson has led more souls to Christ, mine among them. This isn't a zero-sum game, as you might have it. Getting closer to Christ is the goal. VD has gone off the rails here. Completely. I personally, PERSONALLY, know three men who have recommitted themselves to Christ because of Jordan Peterson.

Blogger Junior Jefferson May 07, 2018 4:42 PM  

If anything, if anything, VD's media is a shrine to himself. His media wranglings, etc. Buy his media, please. Give him money. ;) That's cool. Money and all that. Get it. But don't be thinking Christ wouldn't spew you out of his mouth.

Blogger Crew May 07, 2018 4:42 PM  

VD has born false witness in his crusade against Jordan Peterson.

Spelling is not your strong suit, is it Junior?

OpenID markstoval May 07, 2018 4:43 PM  

Al wrote:Like the pitiful tattoo phenomenon, the anointing of the likes of Jordan Peterson as a messiah is, at bottom, yet more proof of the catastrophically impoverished state of the modern soul.

Best comment on thread so far.

Blogger Junior Jefferson May 07, 2018 4:50 PM  

@ 31: "I like to remind them that overturning the lies of Sin Merchants and driving them out with whips is an absolutely an acceptable reaction..."

Sooner or later, that is going to come out of your mouth. Predictably. That is the only Christ you know. The Angry Christ is the only one you know. It makes you feel good, I guess, to have your anger justified. Yet, if you were into Christ, you wouldn't be so angry, because Christ inevitably brings peace. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

OpenID dreadilkzee May 07, 2018 4:54 PM  

Junior Jefferson wrote:VD has born false witness in his crusade against Jordan Peterson. His crusade has blinded him to the truth. The truth is, Jordan Peterson has led more souls to Christ, mine among them. This isn't a zero-sum game, as you might have it. Getting closer to Christ is the goal. VD has gone off the rails here. Completely. I personally, PERSONALLY, know three men who have recommitted themselves to Christ because of Jordan Peterson.

Only the Holy Spirit can convict the heart. Maybe JP presented something that they found convicting, but that is no different than a person finding Christ because they were scared of the bear about to rip them apart. The bear didn't bring them to Christ.

By your example VD, who has also brought people to Christ, should get the same adoration you offer to JP.

You are just trolling aren't you?

Blogger Crew May 07, 2018 4:55 PM  

Blessed are the Colt Peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

FIFY!

Blogger Were-Puppy May 07, 2018 5:05 PM  

Junior! Time to clean your room, take your meds, and for lunch, PBJs .

Blogger Nate73 May 07, 2018 5:13 PM  

Were-Puppy: I thought there was a meme in there about PBJ being JBP reversed lol.

OpenID dreadilkzee May 07, 2018 5:20 PM  

VD,

I would more or less agree with your assessment, however you seem to assign more malice to JP (and Benny for that matter) than I do. I find some of his thoughts more inline with "useful idiot" than purposeful agent and don't find him any more crazy than some of the other people out there. I guess we could paint the broad brush and say most Liberals are crazy.

Have you seen his interview with Camille Paglia?

(NOTE: link includes transcript and video)

I am curious what part of it you would find objectionable or agreeable?

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 5:21 PM  

This blog has some of the smartest commenters around, right up there with those at Edward Feser's blog.

I salute you all!

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 5:40 PM  

Junior Jefferson wrote:VD has born false witness in his crusade against Jordan Peterson.
This statement is itself a bearing of false witness. You have aaccused Vox of lying. Where has Vox lied?

His crusade has blinded him to the truth. The truth is, Jordan Peterson has led more souls to Christ, mine among them. This isn't a zero-sum game, as you might have it. Getting closer to Christ is the goal. VD has gone off the rails here. Completely. I personally, PERSONALLY, know three men who have recommitted themselves to Christ because of Jordan Peterson.
That's funny, because that's explicitly where he was NOT leading you. He was definitely leading you away from Christ the Man-God to Christ the parable-teller, Christ the archetype, Christ the pointless. If you wound up somewhere else, it's because you weren't smart enough to be deceived by him.

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 5:46 PM  

Junior Jefferson, you converted to Christ in spite of Jordan Peterson, not because of him. Once the blush of your Peterson crush cools, you'll see this.

Blogger Al May 07, 2018 5:47 PM  

Junior Jefferson, it's essential that you immediately read:

To Know Jesus Christ, by Frank Sheed

&

Theology and Sanity, by Frank Sheed

Blogger VD May 07, 2018 6:21 PM  

I'd be curious to know what workforce participation rates were for women before the 1950s.

Half what they are now, they were about 30 percent.

So JP's work is the foundation for a justification for paedophilia, right?

I doubt it.

VD has born false witness in his crusade against Jordan Peterson.

You're lying. His own words indict him.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 07, 2018 6:24 PM  

Junior Jefferson wrote:The Angry Christ is the only one you know. Yet, if you were into Christ, you wouldn't be so angry, because Christ inevitably brings peace.

Jesus wasn't nice. See Matthew 23:27.

Jesus' peace-making isn't going to be nice. See Revelation 14:20.

God isn't nice, isn't tame, isn't safe.

Blogger Raging Papist May 07, 2018 6:24 PM  

I'm glad that people are waking up to the problems inherent with Jordan Peterson's philosophy, but I am sorry that it comes at the cost of the respect that I had for John C. Wright, which was not insubstantial. All Peterson has done from an ideological perspective, is give conservatives another reason not to fight. I think the reason conservatives are so satisfied with scraps of virtue or Truth they receive from Peterson is because they are ultimately cowards who don't want to fight. Why won't they chastise something that is bad? I think they excuse Peterson because he gave a kernel of Truth in a sea of sin. That kernel means he cannot be all bad, and so should not be criticized.

If this is true, it means that conservatives are a lost cause. What more do conservatives need to see that you cannot appease the Left? Why do they want to make peace with them when most of western civilization has been ruined?

If conservatism is merely a defensive posture, then get out of it.

It is absolutely infuriating to see people I used to respect be satisfied with table scraps from people that hate them or are otherwise conning them. Stop playing for peace when war is already here.

Blogger El Rojo May 07, 2018 6:31 PM  

Junior Jefferson wrote:@ 31: "I like to remind them that overturning the lies of Sin Merchants and driving them out with whips is an absolutely acceptable reaction..."

Sooner or later, that is going to come out of your mouth. Predictably. That is the only Christ you know. The Angry Christ is the only one you know. It makes you feel good, I guess, to have your anger justified. Yet, if you were into Christ, you wouldn't be so angry, because Christ inevitably brings peace. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.


Sooner or later? My good friend, it already has.

LOLZ at trying to tell me what I "know".

I would tell you to look up the word context, and then re-read the sermon on the mount. But based on your posts, reading comprehension is not your thing.

Go sell your fake Pacifistic Churchianity to someone else.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len May 07, 2018 6:54 PM  

He's never claimed to be of the Left, on the Right, conservative, Christian,........nothing.

It's cute how they try to turn his apparent pathological aversion to taking a definable position into some sort of heroic achievement: "Plant his standard upon some lonely hill?! Ha, joke's on you, he doesn't even have a standard!"

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 07, 2018 6:58 PM  

That last paragraph is exactly true and why I think a discrediting of his view on evolution and religion would be a fatal blow Liberalism = people are the same enough on some level to be able to live together. Peterson accepts HBD but uses the idea of archtypes to say pretty much everyone is the same.

Blogger Freddy May 07, 2018 7:45 PM  

Infiltrate a Bohemian Grove drunken bourbon afternoon and take 30 demons out

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 8:03 PM  

There is no "Nietzschean Perspectivism." There's just Nietzsche saying there's no such thing as Truth but acting as if whatever he says is true. In other words, hypocrisy.

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 8:06 PM  

I've always assumed this"my truth," "your truth" stuff had an origin, but danged if I know where. Existentialism, New Ageism, the "Secret?" I dunno.

But I do know it's a cursed way of thinking. Perhaps the most cursed sentence I have ever uttered is "My truth is that I'm a Gay American," by Jim McGreevy.

Blogger Arthur Isaac May 07, 2018 8:14 PM  

. The Angry Christ is the only one you know.

Beats Social Justice Christ 10/10. Seeing as how the aforementioned Psalm 46 and Revelation are drawing nearer every day He'll be the one to watch for.

Blogger OGRE May 07, 2018 8:35 PM  

@79 tublecane

https://infogalactic.com/info/Perspectivism

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/#Pers

We can judge it however we want, but that doesn't mean its not a thing.

This is where JP is coming from. To paraphrase him:
"Theres an infinite number of ways of interpreting the world." JP is wanting to use Pragmatism to solve the problems that arise out of Perspectivism--namely post-modernist nihilism--by narrowing down the ways the world can be interpreted.

I'm just identifying what hes doing. I'm not supporting him or agreeing with him. I think hes fucking terribly wrong on a whole lot of things. But he doesn't make it easy to see what hes doing, because as others have pointed out hes quite adept at obfuscation. And he name drops philosophies like hes at a cocktail party.

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 8:49 PM  

@OGRE- I will grant that people talk about it as if it actually exists, but too many people make a living talking about the significance of a comma or two in Twilight of the Gods, for instance, for every little bit of Nietzsche-bilia not to be a Thing.

I don't think this particular thing rises to the level of thing-ness.

You're right, Peterson does not make it easy to see what he's doing. But if you're actually familiar the figures he name-drops or have read superior thinkers on the same subjects, it's easier.

Blogger LBascom May 07, 2018 9:01 PM  

"The truth is, Jordan Peterson has led more souls to Christ, mine among them. "

The question is, who is this "Christ" you have been led to?

Matthew 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do you believe in the person, the son of God, born of a virgin, and his sacrifice on the cross that cleansed you of sin, and that by faith in that grace allowed you to be baptized by the holy spirit into the body of Christ?

Or do you believe that's just a story that if you accept the underlying ideas of will make you into a good person?

Because those two things are not the same.

Blogger OGRE May 07, 2018 9:06 PM  

@83 Tublecane

Is JP not employing Perspectivism? I see no need to deny it as a thing when its clearly being used. Just say its false and be done with it. Why deny its existence when its at the root of a lot of the misguided philosophies that have developed from it? Wouldn't that be a terrible strategic error if we want to combat these awful ideas?

I believe materialism is a false, evil, and destructive idea that shoulders the blame for the murder of tens of millions of people, but I don't deny that its a real thing that people believe.

Blogger Playto May 07, 2018 9:27 PM  

>JP is a psychologist not a philosopher like you.

Last time I checked, psychology is the study of the mind, which is a metaphysical thing. So, it's a branch of philosophy, making Jordan Peterson a philosopher. These fans are ridiculous.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 10:25 PM  


Last time I checked, psychology is the study of the mind, which is a metaphysical thing. So, it's a branch of philosophy, making Jordan Peterson a philosopher.

Properly speaking, all the physical sciences are a branch of philosophy. That does not render Neal DeGrasse Tyson a philosopher.

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 11:37 PM  

@85- Is Peterson employing perspectivism? Maybe. It's hard to tell, because he's evasive on the issue. As evidenced by the wildly divergent interpretations of his defenders.

That being said, I was talking specifically about Nietzschean Perspectivism. At least as regards Truth, Nietzschean Perspectivism doesn't exist. It may exist for value judgements or aesthetics, but not Truth.

I don't take this position lightly. Nietzsche didn't believe there is such a thing as Truth or knowledge. I know this because he said so. And if he was lying, as he probably was, well, never trust a man who says he doesn't believe in truth. Especially if you know he's a liar.

There is such a thing as perspectivism, but not Nietzschean Perspectivism. One cannot employ multiple perspectives to get at a judgment of truth if there is no truth.

That was my point.

Blogger OGRE May 08, 2018 12:04 AM  

@88 tublecane

Now how is that any different from what Peterson does? You are arguing about a label, a reference, and trying to redefine it away from the commonly held meaning...because you consider it self-contradictory.

If you wanted to make a point about Nietzsche's nihilism then make it. I get where you're coming from and agree with your criticisms. But don't try to confuse everyone else with word play when the label has been given and accepted.

The term is in fact Nietzsche's Perspectivism. It may well be oxymoronic and self-contradictory, but thats the label used to describe what Nietzsche said about perspectives. Don't do a Peterson and redefine terms you don't like. Just explain the problem with the idea so we can reject it and move on.

Blogger DonReynolds May 08, 2018 12:44 AM  

Peterson's followers seem to be worse than Peterson, himself. But they did remind me of a fun poster I had back in the bad old days. The picture on the poster was a zillion houseflies, gathered together for some obvious reason. The caption on the poster said...."Eat Shit! 100,000 flies cannot all be wrong!"
It must be a good idea if so many aggressive and determined people are for it. Didn't we see a perfect example of that thinking (or non-thinking) in the 1930s Germany?

Blogger tublecane May 08, 2018 12:59 AM  

@89- Okay, if that's the common term. I wasn't aware of that. That's not the sort of thing I usually quibble about.

I've heard of perspectivism before, but I wasn't aware everyone calls it "Nietzschean." Though I realize he is incorrectly associated with that sort of thing.

I don't see how that would be like what Peterson does, however. Because however common "Nietzschean perspectivism" may be, it's not like "truth."

If you go about redefining "perspectivism," maybe you're a nitpicker or a jerk, but it's nothing like basic terminology common to all English speakers. Redefining "truth" indicates you're probably a charlatan.

Blogger OGRE May 08, 2018 7:35 AM  

@91 tublecane

Fair enough. Like I said I agree with your criticisms of his ideas. I was never enamored of Nietzsche, never went through a 'Nietzsche phase' like so many other philosophy students had. I always considered him a narcissistic madman and rather boring to read. In fact it was JPs constant references to Nietzsche which first put me off about Peterson. How could anyone find so much on which to base their worldview out of Nietzsche of all people?

But Nietzsche was the one who gave Perspectivism its name, even though those ideas have been around an awfully long time...Plato's allegory of the cave for instance. But Nietzsche brought it to the forefront and gave it the name thats now used for it, so when people say "Nietzschean Perspectivism" it refers to his brand of Perspectivism that leads to a rejection of objective truth/reality.

I don't think JP was redifining 'truth;' none of those ideas were from him originally. But he was playing very loose with the term and utilizing different conceptions of truth at different times within the same conversation. And on purpose. Gerrymandering, indeed. And yes, the inability to stick to one even within a particular framework is very indicative of him being an intellectual charlatan.

Blogger Roger G2 May 08, 2018 8:35 AM  

I like the “dude you have 3k subscribers...” because we all know that’s a metric for the final word on moral authority.
It’s like Mr. Metokur said when someone pointed this out to him after he dared to insult the Canadian god king messiah: if followers and subs are the gauge, we’d all better listen to the Young Turks(to paraphrase).
By the way, this term Jordanetics...
Idk if VD is the guy who coined this but it’s glorious: mixing up Peterson with Dianetics of Scientology fame? Now that’s brilliant.
Who did that?

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia May 08, 2018 6:08 PM  

Vox, you need to do more interviews or 1 on 1 discussions -- this Alex Jones conversation was fantastic.

You are much more succinct and animated than you are in your solo vids, and your speech has the brisk cadence of your writing. Your solo efforts tend toward the monotone-ish and plodding. You probably don't give a rat's ass, and of course content is, in the end, what really matters. But as an experienced presenter and stand-up trainer, I know a little bit about this stuff. FWIW.

Blogger Teleros May 09, 2018 7:05 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

OpenID perfone165 May 09, 2018 3:49 PM  

I'm curious about what happened to the the definition of 'gamma'. I don't pay much attention to pop culture but it used to be something like (from a Doug Casey article about sociopaths)

" the ethologist’s characterization of the social interaction of rats as being between a few alpha rats and many beta rats, the alpha rats being dominant and the beta rats submissive. In addition, a small percentage are gamma rats that stake out prime territory and mates, like the alphas, but are not interested in dominating the betas. The people most inclined to leave for the wide world outside and seek fortune elsewhere are typically gamma personalities."

Or from (http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/03/gamma-man.html)

"Usually a Gamma is an Alpha Male that “grew up” and toned down the antics slightly and started being socially conscious and more of a team player. Or they started as a Beta Male that “grew a pair” and started bumping back on the rest of the world rather than just taking it lying down."

Or as I would put it, "Alpha's lead, beta's follow, gamma's give no fucks about following nor leading." This seems a useful and obvious taxonomy.

So I was surprised in the critique of JP to hear 'gamma' used as a pejorative. Clearly something has changed.

Could someone point to some source where I could get an understanding of the nature and origin of this new slant on the taxonomy? At the moment it seems 'gamma' and 'beta' are hardly different and they are just slurs, like calling someone a pussy. Is that all there is to it? Or is there some treatment or exposition of what these categories are and how they arise?

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