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Friday, July 20, 2018

Darkstream: white nationalism and other fictions



From the transcript of the Darkstream:

What a lot of people don't realize is that pan nationalism is simply a form of ethnic imperialism. It is a category error to mistake the broader racial category for the national or ethnic category, so for example, when you look at the continent of Europe there are literally dozens of nations in there. You have the Russian nation which is distinct from the Swedish nation which is distinct from the Finnish nation which is distinct from the Scottish nation which is distinct from the English and the Welsh nations, and you could also theoretically argue that there is a Cornish nation. So when you start talking about white nationalism and you try to lump all of these nations into a single category and call them white, that's where you get into nonsensical imperialism. Which nation is the dominant culture?

I speak some German, I speak some Italian, I speak some French, I even speak a bit of Japanese, and I can assure you that all of those races, all of those nations which have been considered to be white in  some way shape or form, all of those nations are very, very different. All of those nations have different cultural values, they have different historical traditions, most of them have different languages, and many of them have different religious focuses. They might all be Christian, but they are fundamentally different, so how do you build a nation around all these nations?

Well, you do it the same way that the Romans did it, you do it the same way that the Chinese did it and that is constructing an empire. Now what you have to understand is that this has been done before, for example in the 1950s, 1960s, and into the 1970s the biggest pan-national movement
was actually in the Middle East.  Gamal Abdel Nasser was the president, leader, I don't know exactly what his title was, but he was the leader of Egypt and he was the center of what was called the pan-Arab nationalist movement and they actually went so far as to merge several different countries. It was called the United Arab Republic I think it was Egypt and Syria, and it was a complete failure.

It was an absolutely complete failure, and so the the idea that different European nations are going to band together and ignore all their differences in a manner that is even more tightly and intimately bound than the present European Union presently is an utter absurdity. It is not going to happen. Pan African nationalism failed, pan-Arabian nationalism failed, the European Union was so aware that this was going to fail that they didn't even dare attempt to do it openly; they denied that they were even going to create a political entity much less tried to merge the nations.

White nationalism is a complete non-starter. White nationalism does not exist; the only place that any form of it exists is in the United States and that's why you see a lot of very stupid things being said by Americans trying to talk about Europe and trying to talk about European nations. What people tend to forget is that the only reason that the United States has been held together is by military force.

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110 Comments:

Blogger Trid July 20, 2018 12:23 PM  

How would american nationalist types classify themselves if their family culture and genetics are pan national? A German/English mutt 5 generations separated from his European cousins isn't going to be able to subscribe to either nation, and he shouldn't.

But at the same time there is a clear divide between that mutt and his pre columbian and negroid neighbors

Blogger Longtime Lurker July 20, 2018 12:28 PM  

I remember the UAR. It produced cool postage stamps. And not much else.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother July 20, 2018 12:36 PM  

Trid,

you'd have a new nation emerging, just like the current European nations did before, during and after the Roman Empire.

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 20, 2018 12:38 PM  

Hate to ask this here, but it begs the question: "What is the American nation?" I know civic nationalism is a non-starter. We can't define it by race, even though many try. "African-American" "Hispanic-American" I guess I'm "German-American." But not full blooded of course. Typical American mutt. I have a common religion, Christianity but that includes some of the other hyphens too.

Around what are we supposed to build a national identity?

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 12:41 PM  

"What is the American nation?"

The American nation is Anglo-American Posterity. However, most people who live in the United States and call themselves Americans are not members of that nation. It may be worth keeping in mind that all the people living in South, Central, and North America have a perfectly good excuse for calling themselves Americans whether they are members of that particular nation or not.

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 12:43 PM  

Around what are we supposed to build a national identity?

You're not. Think of Rome during its decline. Do you think the people had any idea that their descendants would be living in city-states and kingdoms like the Republic of Venice or the Kingdom of Napoli?

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 20, 2018 12:49 PM  

So I guess I'm

"The Man Without a Country" - Hale, 1863

Pretty depressing. I'm just trying to find my tribe.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 12:58 PM  

Vox, what are your thoughts re: Switzerland vs. the USA as regards multi-ethnic republics/pseudo-nations?

Blogger electricsheeple July 20, 2018 1:00 PM  

I thought this was your best video on differentiating your views and the views of other Alt Right (Spencer, etc) in regards to the Nation (with regards to economics, the differences have always been quite clear), particularly at about 6:00 - 20:00.

I don't see them as the enemy, but I do see your views as far more consistent with Christianity which is why I defer to you over that crowd.

I do enjoy a good Mike Enoch or Spencer pod from time to time. I think they say a lot of true things, but ultimately your criticism of them on racial imperialism is correct.

Blogger Warunicorn July 20, 2018 1:01 PM  

Am I wrong in thinking the whole point behind a particular nation is its sovereignty? It's ability to self-govern? To basically assimilate into said nation should one want to live there instead of trying to change it to whatever sh*thole one has come from?

Herein lies the rub: It's almost impossible for some to do that. (See: Africa and some of Asia.) Shouldn't we get to decide who gets to live here? What's wrong with that?

Why is it that places like Japan can do whatever the f*ck it wants and no one bats an eye, yet we in America try to reel things in (e.g., illegal immigration) and we get excoriated because reasons? WTF? They always trot out the Constitution (Magic Dirt!) as some kind of reason. We can't save the world by taking in everyone. There has to be a line drawn.

It drives me nuts to even think about it.

Slightly OT: I found out that my Mom's side of the family is 95% English, tracing all the way back to the Mayflower and just about every war and conflict here since.

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 1:01 PM  

Switzerland is more like the alliance of three nations than a single nation per se. Each region defines itself as NOT being part of its larger linguistic neighbor. That arrangement ceased to be an option for the USA after the Civil War.

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 1:04 PM  

Why is it that places like Japan can do whatever the f*ck it wants and no one bats an eye, yet we in America try to reel things in (e.g., illegal immigration) and we get excoriated because reasons?

Because the US has three things Japan doesn't.

1. Declaration of Independence and the equality rhetoric.
2. Lots and lots of immigrants.
3. Influential Jews.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 1:06 PM  

Do you think that's a feasible future for the USA, given that we share a common language and more common/mixed ancestry (on the whole, not counting recent Hispanics) than the Swiss? Or is geographic isolation a necessary factor?

Blogger Mark Stoval July 20, 2018 1:19 PM  

I use the definition of nation: "A nation is a community of people who share a common language, culture, values, traditions, ethnicity, descent, and history."

The State on the other hand is very different.

The State: "That organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue... by coercion"

Often the "state" is called a "nation-state". This just confuses the whole conversation.

So, by misusing the language people try to act like the USA is one "nation" when it is a "state" or "nation-state". Or, perhaps, one would say it is an empire-state.

The whole "melting pot" idea was just propaganda from the beginning. If we got rid of all non-whites in the USA right now (every damn one of them) and had no immigration from then on --- we might see a new "nation" form over the centuries. Centuries might be overly optimistic.

Now if we got rid of all non-whites and allowed TOTAL freedom of association we might just have a peaceful 1950s style community that could provided a good place for our kids to grow up. Maybe.

If the people of each nation were allowed to associate with each other in peace then maybe the various nations could get along well enough to have a larger community if that association was totally voluntary. Again; maybe.

Blogger Torsten Hallesgaard July 20, 2018 1:24 PM  

July 20, 2018 12:43 PM
Around what are we supposed to build a national identity?

You're not.


All right. But then, how do we begin to build some sort of community consisting of ourselves?

Blogger Lazarus July 20, 2018 1:26 PM  

3. Influential Jews.

Somewhat related:

California is not Israel

With the ever-increasing rate of assimilation in America, before long, only pockets of Orthodox Jews will remain, and who will protect them when, as it has happened throughout history, the volcano of anti-Semitism explodes, and Americans remind the Jews that they aren’t true Americans after all?

Blogger Ranger July 20, 2018 1:29 PM  

One thing that Vox made me realize, and that I believe does not get enough attention, is the difference between citizenship and nationhood; Citizenship is bloodless, it is about the relation between the State and an individual. Nationhood is about blood, language, culture, religion, and other factors.

A good example is the recent French victory at the world cup. Literally EVERYONE agrees that the winners are citizens of France. What is debated is whether they are French nationals. If you put things like that and explain the difference, I guess even most normies will agree that they are not part of the french nation, as they lack one or more of the components required for it.

I also believe that this confusion is in a way a reflexion of US dominance. As the US is a place where these two concepts have been thoroughly mixed, and as US culture is very influential because of US power, these concepts get mixed up by other states. As US power diminishes and Ethno-states become relatively more powerful those concepts will grow more distinct (in other words, the alt-right is inevitable)

Blogger sykes.1 July 20, 2018 1:34 PM  

Vox is almost certainly right that the national identities in Europe are too strong to permit any sort of pan-European White Nationalism. However, I do not believe that is true of Whites in America, who have few if any ties to European nationalisms. Here, a White Nationalism is possible.

That the US is an empire is true. But it is not true that it is held together force, at least not yet. The residual national feelings for America, especially among Whites, is still strong, although the identitarian campaign being conducted by the socialists (of all people) is weakening the bonds between Whites and America per se and increasing White self awareness. The socialists are attacking all Whites without differentiation, and they even lump Jews together with Whites. It is these ongoing socialist attacks that is forging a White identity and a future White Nationalism, however impossible that is for Europe.

Blogger cheddarman July 20, 2018 1:35 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 1:38 PM  

"With the ever-increasing rate of assimilation in America, before long, only pockets of Orthodox Jews will remain, and who will protect them when, as it has happened throughout history, the volcano of anti-Semitism explodes, and Americans remind the Jews that they aren’t true Americans after all?"

As I noted on an earlier post, Jews in America have assimilated at an unprecedented rate - to the point that the Jewish population of the country was actually dropping more rapidly than the Japanese population is, right up until the post-USSR influx from Eastern Europe.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 20, 2018 1:40 PM  

"However, I do not believe that is true of Whites in America, who have few if any ties to European nationalisms. Here, a White Nationalism is possible."

That's easy to say if you haven't been around the states much.

I, on the other hand, expect there would have to be at least three separate nations just of white people.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 20, 2018 1:41 PM  

"But it is not true that it is held together force, at least not yet."

It's been held together by force for over a hundred and fifty years. See: The Civil War.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 1:43 PM  

Every country is held together by force. That's part of the deal. Regardless of your opinion on the specifics of the American Civil War, it's really more shocking that we've only had the one, given historical trends.

Blogger John Calla July 20, 2018 1:45 PM  

Once the EU and NATO finally dissolve the various nations will get back to doing what they do best: killing each other.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener July 20, 2018 1:48 PM  

@17 A good example is the recent French victory at the world cup. Literally EVERYONE agrees that the winners are citizens of France. What is debated is whether they are French nationals. If you put things like that and explain the difference, I guess even most normies will agree that they are not part of the french nation, as they lack one or more of the components required for it.

I would say that basically everyone knows they're not French nationals. The left is so angered by pointing this out because it's an obvious truth.

Blogger ZW July 20, 2018 1:50 PM  

There used to be a kind of solidarity among independent White nations. It was called Christendom. Attempts to recreate Christendom without Christ are doomed.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 20, 2018 1:54 PM  

@11 There seems to be a lot of power at the canton/ locality level in Switzerland vs. central (and Swiss "diversity" is largely at the canton level rather than more granular, of course). There was piece in the Atlantic a couple of years back about how, to become a naturalized citizen in Switzerland, your community of residence has to vote to accept you.

Blogger Alphaeus July 20, 2018 1:55 PM  

" What people tend to forget is that the only reason that the United States has been held together is by military force."

I bet that sounds weird to a lot of people. It would have sounded weird to me too, (a libertarian), in years gone by, until I figured out that Liberty is only attainable by force and violence, exactly the same kind of force and violence necessary to imperialism and tyranny. The only advantage of Liberty is that if and when the population in question is civilized with strong moral character it takes a small amount of force and violence and terror and propaganda to impose the regime of liberty, and such a society of Liberty will tend to be peaceful and prosperous.
Tyranny, on the other hand, requires massive shit loads of force and violence and terror and brainwashing and mind control and propaganda.

Blogger AaMcavoy July 20, 2018 2:05 PM  

The US will break up into, I assume, actual functional nations of people with similar customs and genes. That is because no tribe or nation will be able to dominate the others in the Lower 48 Empire?
Southern English, Southern blacks, Northern English in New England, Scands in Midwest, Mormon English in Utah/Idaho (small, so probably dominated by a neighbor), and the Southwest will be northern Mexico. No idea about the Northwest or the multi-cultural big cities.

So, the gist of the game is find where your ancestors are from, live where that ethnicity is most common, and buckle up for wild, empire-collapsing ride?

Blogger John July 20, 2018 2:11 PM  

I think it is safe to say that the South will rise again. Of the whites they have the strongest national identity.

We should think in terms of Alliances for the time being. It was not necessary for elves and men to declare themselves "one nation" to defeat Sauron. Nation-less whites living in America will lay the foundations of new nations after the wars.

But "White Civic Nationalism" and Richard Spencer's "Socialism In One Race™" are out of the question.

Blogger Ranger July 20, 2018 2:19 PM  

Thats my point. They are not French nationals. They are citizens of (the State called) France. But if you just say "they are not French. They are Africans" you leave yourself up to some obvious rebuttals: 1- They were born in France, not in Africa (and soil is, indeed, one of the components of nationality, if one of the least important ones). 2- (The State called) France considers them French (citizens). The terms in parenthesis are usually omitted, which creates all this confusion.

Blogger Triple_Scoop July 20, 2018 2:27 PM  

OT but what in the actual fuck?!?

https://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2018/07/20/disney-director-james-gunn-exposed-disturbing-history-of-child-rape-jokes/

Blogger Gr8Again July 20, 2018 2:28 PM  

The people of the United States, left to their own devices, already organize into white enclaves, black enclaves and Hispanic enclaves. Just look at the census dot map. For the most part, those in the white enclaves don't differentiate much between those of Anglo descent, German descent, Scandinavian descent, Italian descent or Irish descent. As long as you're white, you can join the white enclave and be part of the white community.

With that being the case at the local, community level, I don't see why White Nationalism is somehow an impossibility (in America). The bottom line is that 100-300 years of interbreeding and cultural blending has blurred the distinction between Anglo, Scot, German, etc. The only distinctions that still matter are between white, brown and black.

It's true that we may never get to White Nationalism because of the equality language in the Declaration of Independence and because of the propaganda conducted by Jews; but it's not due to some fundamental inability to unite all whites in America as one culture. Indeed, I think the tendency for whites to unite as a single identity group is going to increase as whites continue to become a minority.

Blogger Zwiebel July 20, 2018 2:40 PM  

A few years back, I read about a study some lady made about why Switzerland is so successful as a multicultural nation. Her answer: mountains. Big, bloody mountains. That you just don't stroll over one Sunday afternoon. So people were actually pretty much segregated.

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 2:50 PM  

But it is not true that it is held together force, at least not yet.

Totally false. Try to secede and the government will kill you. They won't even permit people to vote to divide a state.

Every country is held together by force. That's part of the deal.

Totally false. Most countries are not, as several recent peaceful secessions have demonstrated.

I don't see why White Nationalism is somehow an impossibility (in America).

It's an impossibility in any meaningful time frame. In 500 years, sure. The USA has 15-25 years left.

Blogger Cataline Sergius July 20, 2018 2:57 PM  

Something I'm going to be publishing on my blog Monday,( which in the real world means sometime before August first), is a study of the Korean assimilationist movement when they were a part of the Japanese Empire.

This is for me a fascinating study of Civic Nationalism and it's preordained failure.

If you want a preview look up "Chosen Japanese."

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 20, 2018 2:58 PM  

You have the Russian nation which is distinct from the Swedish nation which is distinct from the Finnish nation

Though there seems to be a significant Swedish minority within the current boundaries of the country of Finland. Historically, they've been something of an elite -- like the Germans in the Baltic states in the past. Does their status relative to the host nation lead them to support "diversity" and "multiculturalism?"

Blogger NO GOOGLES July 20, 2018 3:01 PM  

By the same logic is "American nationalism" dead as well? Most people would define "American" to include past immigrants of many different nations - Germany (or at least the nations that would later become Germany), Scandinavians, Irish, even some French. Are the only people included in American nationalism the original English settlers from pre-1820s America?

If that's the case, is American nationalism even possible? I don't think there's a large enough or geographically coherent enough population of those people left. Personally I think the entire modern conception of "American" isn't going to survive at all. If there's one group included in modern "Americans" that has a pretty decent chance, it would be the past German immigrants. The largest ethnic group in almost the entire Western US is the descendants of German immigrants - only parts of the West Coast and the Southernmost parts of the Western US have other higher concentrations of ethnic groups.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 3:08 PM  

'Totally false. Most countries are not, as several recent peaceful secessions have demonstrated.'

And for every one of those, I can point out a dozen, often in the same country, that were prevented by force. Law *is* force, or at least the threat thereof. A country is determined by the ability to enforce laws.

And even peaceful secession proves the rule: if you don't exert force to prevent it, the country splinters.

Blogger Salt July 20, 2018 3:08 PM  

The US is too big, so look to white regionalism. In some respects it already exists. For instance, by race only, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire are 2% black with Mass at 10%. All it would need is to alter the ideology to sufficiently red with a nationalistic bent.

Blogger Daniel Babylon July 20, 2018 3:09 PM  

VD wrote:The USA has 15-25 years left.
If you're talking about the impending civil war, why would that be the end of America? We've already survived one of those.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener July 20, 2018 3:18 PM  

@41 The last civil war here happened when practically everyone lived in rural settings in immediate proximity to where their food was grown and supply chain disruptions weren't a death sentence to 70-90% of the population.

Blogger Felix Bellator July 20, 2018 3:39 PM  

@42 - Noah B The Savage Gardener, excellent point. Disruption of large modern, metropolitan areas would result in massive die off. I wonder if the Pentagon has run the numbers?

Blogger Resident Moron™ July 20, 2018 3:39 PM  

The country splinters? The ground just ... spikts open?

Go back to nation and state and see your error. The state splinters as each captive nation departs.

This is only difficult if you don’t have the mental capacity or discipline to use words properly.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 3:41 PM  

"This is only difficult if you don’t have the mental capacity or discipline to use words properly."

Learn how to use a dictionary. "Country", in a political sense, refers to the *region* sharing a homogeneous government. If that region is reduced by secession, it is splintered.

Blogger lynnjynh9315 July 20, 2018 3:42 PM  

Noah B The Savage Gardener wrote:@41 The last civil war here happened when practically everyone lived in rural settings in immediate proximity to where their food was grown and supply chain disruptions weren't a death sentence to 70-90% of the population.

Also note that the last civil war happened when America was still predominantly white. Things will be much worse this time.

Does anyone think those 'preppers' still look crazy? The future will be ruled by bullets and hardtack....

Blogger Daniel Babylon July 20, 2018 3:44 PM  

lynnjynh9315 wrote:Does anyone think those 'preppers' still look crazy? The future will be ruled by bullets and hardtack..
So would it be traitorous to flee to a more peaceful country?

Blogger tz July 20, 2018 3:51 PM  

Meanwhile Jewish Nationalism just got a big boost

Time for all good Jews to come to the aid of Israel, move there, vote, and overturn this horrid racist law. Especially those who already have an Israeli passport.

Blogger tz July 20, 2018 3:53 PM  

Diversity Is a lie from the multi-(cargo)cult.

Blogger NO GOOGLES July 20, 2018 3:59 PM  

@45
If all you can do is snark about semantics, go back to reddit. VD's meaning is very clear and you're not even arguing about his point, just which word he uses.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 20, 2018 4:00 PM  

@4

"Hate to ask this here, but it begs the question: "What is the American nation?"

Stop being a millenial who confuses a fallacy for a logical progression.

This does not beg that question, it BEGETS the question.

Begging the question is a using an unproven assertion as proof of the unproven assertion.

You see this in some Christians (which always makes me cringe when I hear it) -- We know the Bible is true because it's the Word of God, and we know it's the Word of God because it says so."

THAT is begging the question.

STOP CONFUSING THE TWO -- it makes you come off as both uneducated AND pretentious.

Blogger Nostromo July 20, 2018 4:04 PM  

Future North America: Dixie-from Ohio river south, Mississippi river east.
Tejas-self explanitory,includes Oklahoma, New Mexico.
New New York- New England states.
Heartland-West of Pennsylvania, north of Ohio river, east of Oregon/Washington.
Desert- California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah
City state of minorities, Chi-town, Mo-city, Hotlanta, Mobile, Norleans. These will quickly fall into ghost towns when white people no longer feed them, and will have to be eradicated when the dark horde spills out into the country side.
Alaska joins Canada, or Russia. Hawaii joins Japan.

Blogger NO GOOGLES July 20, 2018 4:18 PM  

@51
He wasn't accusing VD of a logical fallacy, he was pointing out that if you can't define a country based on multiple ethnic groups then how do you define what is "American"?

It's a good question and it's the same thing I brought up in my first comment - that "American" in its modern understanding is likely an obsolete idea or it has a definition that is so narrow that it will discount most people who think of themselves as "American".

"Begging the question" is a fallacy but it is also colloquially used to mean that there is an implied question in what someone has said.

Regarding the topic at hand I would say it's pretty obvious that "white nationalism" is a complete non-starter in Europe. Too many cultures with too much difference between them to lump them all together.

In this US, I think it's a far more difficult situation. Where I live it's more than 90% white (probably closer to 95%) and there isn't one ethnic white group that predominates. There's a mix of German, Irish, and Scandinavian ancestry but very few people even call themselves "German-American" or similar. I think the idea of "white nationalism" could work in a place like where I live, but that is probably the exception rather than the rule. In reality, "white nationalism" as system is probably not even explicitly necessary when 95% of the population is white and there aren't much in the way of white ethnic divisions.

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 4:22 PM  

White nationalism only works in the sense that you have white Americans who consider themselves and each other to be Americans. Which is part of why the NE metro areas, in particular, make it impossible: they don't even really consider themselves to be American. That's why they make the kinds of jokes about Americans that people have historically made about foreigners.

Blogger John Calla July 20, 2018 4:42 PM  

OT, but... Trump has wrapped up another win in Syria:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/assad-is-back-for-good-in-syria-and-with-trumps-blessing/

With the US now achieving energy independence, I'd bet we're done with the region altogether.

Blogger Cecil Henry July 20, 2018 4:43 PM  


This is from Counter currents.

I think it says it well:

'A common misunderstanding or misrepresentation of White Nationalism is to claim that the very concept is meaningless, because white people are not interested in “white” nationalism.

We are interested in American or French or German or Italian nationalism. On this account, German nationalism is for Germans and White Nationalism is for generic white people. But there are no generic white people, so White Nationalism is an ideology without a constituency, a concept without a referent.

White Nationalism just means ethnonationalism for all specific white peoples.

White Nationalists wish to preserve, restore, or create sovereign racially and ethnically homogeneous homelands for all white peoples who aspire to self-determination.'

Blogger Teleros July 20, 2018 4:54 PM  

You have the Russian nation which is distinct from the Swedish nation which is distinct from the Finnish nation which is distinct from the Scottish nation which is distinct from the English and the Welsh nations

The last three are pretty close genetically & culturally - something that gives me hope for British nationalism. Give me two changes to UK policy and I think you could cut the knees out from under the secessionists* here:

1. Real devolution of powers from Westminster, preferably to the county level. A federal model for the UK would be the ideal solution IMHO.
2. Reverse divisive policies in education & such, eg all the Welsh language stuff.

If you want a third point, let me buy up a nice plot of land somewhere & let the SNP rule it as an independent country.

*There are no nationalist parties in Wales or Scotland, though there are parasites that prefer kowtowing to the EU to being part of the UK. Basically from what I've seen the SNP prefers gibs to real independence, as their referendum campaign last time round showed. I doubt they'll win if they hold another one post-Brexit.

Still and all though, white nationalists should take note: if the UK's future is looking uncertain despite a ~300 year old union, and despite the peoples in it being pretty darn closely related to one another, what the heck do they think will happen to their pan-racial stuff? For that matter, are they prepared to impose martial law, as happened in 1707 in parts of Scotland?

Blogger S1AL July 20, 2018 4:57 PM  

Britain also has/had very low geographic mobility relative to the USA. I have ancestry from 8+ European countries and 10+ states *of which I know*. That's fairly standard here. The average resident of Wales has ancestors from... Wales. And probably either North or South, not both.

And the English are Franco-Germans pretending to be British.

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 5:03 PM  

I think it says it well

It doesn't. Because it's not a misrepresentation or a miscommunication. It's exactly what Spencer and Johnson himself have advocated, a generic white ethnostate. Greg is just trying to massage his message because of the correct point, which I first made in an interview with him.

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 20, 2018 5:07 PM  

@51 - What 54 NO GOOGLES said:
""Begging the question" is a fallacy but it is also colloquially used to mean that there is an implied question in what someone has said."

I just meant I had a legitimate question. I wasn't referring to any logical fallacy. I should have put it in better terms.

Blogger Mr. Deficient July 20, 2018 5:18 PM  

Recently Greg Johnson of Counter Currents tried to play a redefining game where he said of course white nationalism refers to all white ethnicities having their own potential nation states if needed. A sort of nationalism for each and every white peoples. I would have never caught this bizarre act pre VD but im always watching for redefinitions.

Its especially stupid because he could just call himself a nationalist like VD.

Blogger Mr. Deficient July 20, 2018 5:20 PM  

Oops someone beat me to it, my bad.

Blogger John Best July 20, 2018 5:26 PM  

If the US breaks apart, it will be an opportunity for the European and Asian powers to take back parts of North America?

Blogger lynnjynh9315 July 20, 2018 6:00 PM  

BTW Vox,

This post eliminates much of the reticence I had about the Alt-Right. The Pan-nationalist element is an obvious trojan horse for globalism.

Taken along with your statement "never judge a people by their elite" I'm now officially in... God help me.

Blogger SirHamster July 20, 2018 6:02 PM  

Mr. Deficient wrote:Its especially stupid because he could just call himself a nationalist like VD.

VD has even helpfully provided a word for the concept of "to each nation his own" - Pan-nationalism.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 20, 2018 6:16 PM  

As for secession, I give you: Quebec.

Does Canada have a STRONG central government?
No, it's a Confederation -- the same sort of government which had extreme difficulty to even mandate troop levies for the Continental Army, and which could not pay its bills and debts -- which is what specifically brought about the formation of the present Constitution. The same form of government which the south, in the civil war, also experienced extreme difficulty raising taxes and troop levies from it's states. A Confederate government just doesn't have much power to do much against it's component entities.


Is Quebec the same culture as the rest of Canada?
No -- they speak French -- much to the annoyance of everyone else in Canada. And they know it.

How many times has Quebec tried to secede from Canada by vote? I've lost count...

Did the majority in Quebec ever vote to secede?
No.

Blogger DonReynolds July 20, 2018 6:24 PM  

Very good, Vox. Not many Americans care to think of the fact that the South is only part of the US because it was forced at bayonet point and if they had half a chance to break away next week....they would take it.

WE are incompatible peoples (and have been since colonial times) and there will come a time when that incompatibility matters very much to all of us. That day is rushing toward us as quickly as the Federal government is becoming the Central Government of the US.

As long as the Federal government was pre-occupied with national defense and international relations and only a minimum of "internal improvements", the states were free to cultivate their own societies, write their only legal doctrines, and develop their own economies. It was possible for incompatible peoples to share the same country (and Federal government) because they could generally agree on national defense and international relations. But as the Federal government became more and more intrusive, and exceeding it's own constitutional mandate, bumping and supplanting state authority on practically every matter....then the 10th amendment was completely ignored.

All of this culminated in street crime becoming a Federal Matter, along with toilet assignment in public restrooms, who qualifies for a marriage license, whether my land is useless because it rains here occasionally, which words can be spoken in public, the "proper" use of pronouns, and where to put the handicapped parking spaces.

Blogger lynnjynh9315 July 20, 2018 6:32 PM  

Nostromo wrote:Future North America: Dixie-from Ohio river south, Mississippi river east.

Tejas-self explanitory,includes Oklahoma, New Mexico.

New New York- New England states.

Heartland-West of Pennsylvania, north of Ohio river, east of Oregon/Washington.

Desert- California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah

City state of minorities, Chi-town, Mo-city, Hotlanta, Mobile, Norleans. These will quickly fall into ghost towns when white people no longer feed them, and will have to be eradicated when the dark horde spills out into the country side.

Alaska joins Canada, or Russia. Hawaii joins Japan.


It's not perfect, but it does provide a template. The main question is the blacks. They're scattered all about....

SirHamster wrote:VD has even helpfully provided a word for the concept of "to each nation his own" - Pan-nationalism.

I think the word you are meaning is omni-nationalism.

Pan-nationalism is frankly the opposite: imperialism under the guise of nationalism.

Blogger SirHamster July 20, 2018 6:35 PM  

lynnjynh9315 wrote:I think the word you are meaning is omni-nationalism.

Yeah, got the label mixed up. My bad.

Blogger Unknown July 20, 2018 6:44 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Unknown July 20, 2018 6:56 PM  

'Who is America' boils down to how you interpret the "we" in "We the people of the United States". Sure, the question is more nuanced and sophisticated than that, but it's a simple question isn't it? This plot of land that I claim on behalf of "us", as distinct from "them", is it a matter of the people I govern or the people who share an arbitrary minimum of my DNA?

To put it bluntly, nationalism for OUR posterity is about who is allowed to sleep with our women. Their bodies, our choice.

But who is 'our' women? To whom do Anglo women submit sexually in America? How does one stop runaway hypergamy amongst a nation of megalomaniacal narcissistic soulsick harlots who from their earliest teenage years have lusted after men "with members like those of donkeys" (Ezek 23)? Is it going to stop simply by sending the donkeys back to donkeyland?

Nationalism for Ancient Israel's posterity once the insatiable beast was out of her cage was total destruction and exile. It was only by God's grace that the race survived through the remnant. No-one was spared God's wrath. No-one.

Forget the forefathers' posterity. Nationalism for our posterity depends on how 'our' women are allowed to behave. Unrestrained hypergamy in women is the true enemy. Everything else is misdirection.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 20, 2018 6:57 PM  

@53

"He wasn't accusing VD of a logical fallacy, he was pointing out that if you can't define a country based on multiple ethnic groups then how do you define what is "American"?"

EXACTLY.

He said "This begs the question"... which is accusing someone of the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

What he should have written is "This BEGETS the question."

Why do I have to write this twice?

Should I write it more slowly because you can't read fast?

Blogger Dirk Manly July 20, 2018 6:58 PM  

@53

""Begging the question" is a fallacy but it is also colloquially used to mean that there is an implied question in what someone has said."

No, it's a corruption used by ignorant people trying to sound more educated and intelligent than what they actually are.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 20, 2018 7:01 PM  

@63

"If the US breaks apart, it will be an opportunity for the European and Asian powers to take back parts of North America?"

And this is precisely why Lincoln, for all of his faults, prosecuted the war against southern secession. The logical end would be the states splintering apart, and soon suffering domination by England, France, and even Spain.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants July 20, 2018 7:21 PM  

Abraham Lincoln was a psycopathic tyrant who deserved to be shot much earlier.

Blogger VD July 20, 2018 7:27 PM  

And this is precisely why Lincoln, for all of his faults, prosecuted the war against southern secession. The logical end would be the states splintering apart, and soon suffering domination by England, France, and even Spain.

So what? Why is violent oppression by Yankees any better than that? Do you think being invaded by over sixty million foreigners was preferable?

Blogger SirHamster July 20, 2018 7:29 PM  

Dirk Manly wrote:No, it's a corruption used by ignorant people trying to sound more educated and intelligent than what they actually are.

That's nice and all, but Vox answered @4's question in @5, and no one appointed you grammar police.

Blogger DonReynolds July 20, 2018 7:51 PM  

People who keep saying they want a separate white ethno-state need to reconnect with the world around them.

MOST of the people in this country who want them dead are OTHER white people!
No, I am not joking.

I hate to be the only one to bring it up, but white does not mean they are your friend, or your countrymen, or even your allies. Making a nation for "whites" makes no more sense than making a nation for Asians, many of whom are incompatible at best and often mortal enemies.

I believe a lot could be done to restore the society that has existed in the US for much of it's history with a bit of pest control and cheap bus tickets, but never think that "white only" is going to create an instant utopia. It won't.

Blogger Jack July 20, 2018 8:16 PM  

Part of what makes a nation coalesce is some kind of founding myth. People have to have a history to understand who they are, and that history usually has to be something good that inspires people and makes them proud. 1950s America might conceivably be such a myth - "We are the people that made the 50s!" - which could be a kind of pan-white identity (with a dash of black pepper). But at this point there are too many post-1965 immigrants here, and the best that could come of such a rallying would be to form one side of the future civil war. The division over Trump already foreshadows this. MAGA = Let's Go Back to the 50s, which to the left means pre-cultural revolution and scares the panties off of them.

I came to the same conclusion as Vox that America doesn't have much longer, and I left years ago. However, one thing that strikes me is that outside of the U.S., nobody asks me what kind of American I am. They ask where I'm from, I say the U.S., and that's it. If I say where my various ancestors are from, it is at best a mild curiosity for them, which changes nothing. I sometimes get the feeling that the American ethnicity is less real to Americans than it is to everyone else.

Blogger Jack Amok July 20, 2018 9:17 PM  

Am I wrong in thinking the whole point behind a particular nation is its sovereignty? It's ability to self-govern?

Well, sure, that's a big part of it. But ethnicity comes into play because genetics have a huge impact on behavioral tendencies, so people with compatible genetics have a far, far easier time agreeing on a set of rules to live by. A government created by an ethnicity to govern that same ethnicity mostly makes sense to the people in it.

A government that has to govern incompatible genetic tendencies ends up being both too brutal and too squishy at the same time. Plus police of one race will always antagonize citizens of another when they exercise their powers.

I don't see why White Nationalism is somehow an impossibility (in America).

I'm not as pessimistic about a pan-Honkey nationalism in the US, primarily because I think there will be a crucible of... renewal? Survival? Reconquest? All the rhetorically-challenged folks trying to sell "White Genocide" are fools, but there is a kernel of truth to their complaint. Non-Whitey is very much out to get Whitey, and that will create incentives to cooperate.

Blogger Unknown July 20, 2018 10:52 PM  

Wisest post in this thread. Keep it up.

Blogger lynnjynh9315 July 20, 2018 11:42 PM  

The necessary element for national identity to emerge... is education.

German identity in the states remained strong for over a 100 years... until the repression of Deutsch sprach in the early 20th century.

What does this indicate? That separation of State and Education is arguably more important than that of Church and State. Remember this: never let them teach your children their values. Whatever you do, don't boomer that up.

Blogger The Stygian July 21, 2018 1:03 AM  

They have.

Blogger Azimus July 21, 2018 2:08 AM  

I by no means am a white nationalist, I am still a civic nationalist holdout, for full disclosure. I do find the idea of forging new nations intriguing, and your two examples, La Raza and African Americans are interesting. Is there a common theme, a common engine for nation-forging between the examples? In both cases their cultural lineage was completely broken, by centuries. In the video you mention something along these lines for white Americans too - that the cultural lineage is being severed/has been severed. Doesn't that mean, though slow in coming, that America (disregarding race) is in the process of forming itself into a new nation? Or is America's soft and voluntary version of breaking culture lineage too weak a crucible? Does it mean that a new nation can only be formed through force/suffering/hardship? By that yardstick the North Koreans also would constitute a new nation, albeit an evil one.

Very interesting video VD. I was tepid about listening to this topic but it was informative and entertaining to boot.

Blogger Azimus July 21, 2018 2:17 AM  

2. Longtime Lurker July 20, 2018 12:28 PM
I remember the UAR. It produced cool postage stamps. And not much else.


And lots of dead Arab soldiers and broken Soviet military equipment.

This got me to thinking that Arabs, and the orbital cultures of the ME (like the Pashtun for example) have got to be the most gullible, most easily jacked up cultures on the planet. From following an eccentric, low-performance English staff officer in WW1 to the Arab Legion of the Axis Powers of WW2 to creating a dysfunctional pan-Arab republic only 40 years ago to chopping off heads of children for no apparent reason in 2017... almost anything sets them off on a blood frenzy. Almost the polar opposite of Americans/Europeans...

Blogger JohnG July 21, 2018 5:00 AM  

15 to 30 years seems a little optimistic. Fiscal collapse (for any number of causes, but the GOP isn’t slowing anything down and the Dems are saying “hey lets add $5trillion a year in spending on healthcare and guaranteed jobs for everybody!”), civil war or somebody getting tired of our meddling and decides to use an EMP (which is supposedly an “acceptable use” of a nuclear weapon)…the idea of a harmonious ethno state seems as amorphous as the cyberwar/Starship Trooper fantasies that military think tanks write about on a monthly basis.

Blogger JohnG July 21, 2018 5:10 AM  

@35 I don't know about that (now). California keeps on mulling secession around and I can't think of 10 people that would be sad to see them go, if not simply for the schadenfreude of watching the state turn into Venezuela. Probably a bad thing in the long term, we'd have millions of leftists fleeing the state and spreading their cancer elsewhere.

Blogger Damaris Tighe July 21, 2018 5:55 AM  

interesting question to put to the millennial woes ama stream.

unfortunately woes did not devote much thought to his answers off the cuff. hopefully he'll think on it further

Blogger DJT July 21, 2018 6:37 AM  

There used to be a kind of solidarity among independent White nations. It was called Christendom. Attempts to recreate Christendom without Christ are doomed.

It's all been downhill since Peter got out of the Ark of Salvation and began to sink. And his children learned to do likewise. (of course I speak of the Schism and the Protestants)

Reunite the Church under the universal model of the Pentarchy and see what power there is in unity.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 21, 2018 6:39 AM  

@87

"Probably a bad thing in the long term, we'd have millions of leftists fleeing the state and spreading their cancer elsewhere."

The time of secession would necessarily also be a time of choosing their citizenship. How many do you REALLY think would be forward-looking enough to decide to retain their U.S. citizenship and leave the newly sovereign country of California?

Past that cut-off date, there would be a need for visas, permanent residency paperwork, etc.

Having been a secessionist should be held against anyone wanting anything more than a T-1 tourist visa.

Blogger DJT July 21, 2018 6:46 AM  

So would it be traitorous to flee to a more peaceful country?

Maybe not, but it will never be your country.

Blogger Attila is my bro July 21, 2018 7:38 AM  

You're assuming there will be a "side" that will "win". Logically, if that's the case, we would end up in the status quo, which would necessitate further civil war, round robin, rinse and repeat. See how that won't work? The status quo can't survive.

Blogger Damaris Tighe July 21, 2018 7:43 AM  


the people groups in the usa ae black white and 'latino. we also see democrats and republicans on the ideological axis.
why are these not the main us nations. plural. ???
the european nations are distinct ethno-states which have no need of pan-nationalism. their whiteness is there but merely implicit because they are all european nations.

Blogger ZhukovG July 21, 2018 9:39 AM  

Concern about personal ancestry or excessive speculation over future details of national identity are pointless.

Nations are not created by people on forums or in smoke filled rooms. They are biological organisms that grow, develop and sometimes die over time and circumstances.

Devote yourself to American Nationalism, it may develop into one Nation-State or a dozen. We don't yet know for sure who our co-Nationalists will be. But, we do know who our enemies are and on that we can unite for now.

Blogger Alphaeus July 21, 2018 10:07 AM  

"Not many Americans care to think of the fact that the South is only part of the US because it was forced at bayonet point and if they had half a chance to break away next week....they would take it."

I am of the opinion that even though the South lost slavery they won the War. And if they tried to leave now they would actually be taking America and the Constitution with them. And for most real loyal patriotic Americans, it would be, like, "Hey, if you leave us, can we go with you?"

Blogger Alphaeus July 21, 2018 10:12 AM  

"I sometimes get the feeling that the American ethnicity is less real to Americans than it is to everyone else."

That's an interesting point, but, it could be due to people being stupid and ignorant same as when if someone says they're from Africa, they don't consider where in Africa they are from. "Oh, OK, you're an African. Dats Nize."

Blogger DJT July 21, 2018 10:12 AM  

Devote yourself to American Nationalism

How is this different from Civic Nationalism?

Blogger S1AL July 21, 2018 11:17 AM  

"'Devote yourself to American Nationalism'

How is this different from Civic Nationalism?"

Depends on what you mean by "American", doesn't it?

Blogger ZhukovG July 21, 2018 11:38 AM  

@ Alphaeus: It may be that I am Southern, but I agree. I believe the best expression of American Nationalism can be found in 'Southern Nationalism'.

I strongly suspect that a new Confederacy would actually end up including much of what Globalist Scum refer to as 'Flyover Country' as well as the traditional 'South'.

@DJT: Civic Nationalism is based on paper. Real Nationalism is based on blood and shared culture. I am as ethnic American as they come, being directly descended from the Virginia Colony of the early 1600s.

Specifically I am of the 'Southern' variant of ethnic American. My Great Great Grandfather and his 8 brothers served in the Confederate Army in the American war against the Washington Multi-Cultural Empire.

Nations are born of the idea, that though my next door neighbor is not a member of my direct family, nevertheless we are related by blood and culture.

Frankly we don't know how this will shake out for the future Nations that will rise out of the corpse of the soon to fail Washington Empire.

Oppose globalism, oppose multiculturalism, oppose the falsehood of 'equality'. I you are American, you will be American. If you are not American, no amount of wishing will make it so.

Blogger DJT July 21, 2018 1:24 PM  

I am as ethnic American as they come, being directly descended from the Virginia Colony of the early 1600s.

Let's say I am descended from the Dutch settlers of New Amsterdam, and my ancestors were able to maintain a purely Dutch bloodline even to this day. Would you say we are both ethnic Americans?

There is wisdom in what Vox and others' critiques of Spencerian white nationalism. However, I am not seeing much difference between US white nationalism and this "American Nationalism".

I mean, this idea has its own purity spirals. How long has your family been here? Are you full-blooded English or a European mutt? Do you have a drop of Indian or even black blood in you?

White Americans are about 85% homogenous with some local ethnic flavors. Since we can't go back to the 17th century, what is the problem with calling that good enough? (Genuinely wondering; not picking an argument.)

Blogger S1AL July 21, 2018 1:56 PM  

@DJT - Here's what matters when it comes to ethnicity:

Do you consider yourself to be "X"?

Do the other people who matter consider you to be "X"?

If the answer to both is yes, well, you're "X".

Blogger ZhukovG July 21, 2018 3:01 PM  

@DJT: Not considering you argumentative at all. But no, the Dutch or German would not be considered ethnic American (now this is important) by the 18th century founding idea. However, given the current chaotic jumble that is the Washington DC Empire; that is much more uncertain.

We just don't know yet how everything will shake out. A lot of countries are really just political unions of different nations. Germany and Italy are both examples of this. The United(?) States is a soon to be failed example of this.

American Nationalism STARTS with European Nations, The Christian Religion, and the Greco-Roman legacy. In the 18th century this further distilled to British Ancestry and Protestant with a commitment to the 'Rights of Englishmen'.

Frankly, American Nationalism may be merely transitory. But it's a good start and much better rhetoric than 'White' Nationalism.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( don't ask, "Who mentats the Mentats?", ask instead, "Who shitpoasts the Shitpoasters?" ) July 21, 2018 3:04 PM  

VD
I even speak a bit of Japanese, and I can assure you that all of those races, all of those nations which have been considered to be white in some way shape or form



i wonder how many people even noticed this statement?

or are weirded out to find that it's historically TRUE? that in the late 19th century / early 20th, the Japanese were considered to be the 'Anglo-Saxons of the East'.



Blogger Resident Moron™ July 21, 2018 3:23 PM  

No, S1AL, the only thing that matters is what you look like.

If you have pale skin in Soweto you can call yourself African as much as you like but those tyres around your neck are still going to burn.

Blogger Alphaeus July 21, 2018 3:28 PM  

"I even speak a bit of Japanese, and I can assure you that all of those races, all of those nations which have been considered to be white in some way shape or form
i wonder how many people even noticed this statement?
or are weirded out to find that it's historically TRUE? that in the late 19th century / early 20th, the Japanese were considered to be the 'Anglo-Saxons of the East'""

And during the Relocation of WWII, the Japanese were officially and legally classified by the US Government as "White" in order to establish where they should be housed and with whom, when they were in the South where some of them were assigned, but also I bet it mattered unofficially in non-Southern locations too.

Blogger S1AL July 21, 2018 3:56 PM  

"Not considering you argumentative at all. But no, the Dutch or German would not be considered ethnic American (now this is important) by the 18th century founding idea."

This is simply false. There were a significant number of Dutch and German settlers in the colonies at the time of the Revolutionary War, most of whom were subjects of the English crown.

Blogger S1AL July 21, 2018 4:00 PM  

'No, S1AL, the only thing that matters is what you look like.

If you have pale skin in Soweto you can call yourself African as much as you like but those tyres around your neck are still going to burn.'

Don't bother responding to me if you're incapable of reading more than one sentence at a time. Living up to your nick isn't a good thing.

Blogger Resident Moron™ July 22, 2018 3:46 AM  

Then stop trying to take it off me.

Your flounce is unconvincing.

How about we abandon the truth by assertion rhetoric and revert to actual argument?

I’ll go first: my proposition is that in the heat of actual conflict nobody risks more than a visual assessment of identity.

As others have said, your skin is your uniform.

Your turn.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 22, 2018 11:04 AM  

DJT wrote:White Americans are about 85% homogenous with some local ethnic flavors. Since we can't go back to the 17th century, what is the problem with calling that good enough?

Let's try it and see if it works. That means building a wall and deporting the Turd World invaders. That's a necessary way-point to going further, and maybe it'll be far enough.

Blogger Ed LeBouthillier July 24, 2018 7:58 PM  

Not all pan-nationalism is imperial. It's only imperial when it calls for one state to hold all of those peoples.

I know it's easy to fall for jingoistic understandings of things like nationalism in general and White Nationalism in particular, but I would say that your understanding of it appears to be very wrong.

Yes, the US is held together by military force. Every state is, by definition (e.g.: the state is that entity which is able to claim a monopoly on the use of force).

Also, some of us White Nationalists are Europeans, too. We have brothers and sisters all around the world. We each share common ideals of our own homelands and self-determination.

Otherwise, White Nationalism is an ideal, and a meta-politic. It calls for the development of multiple white ethno-states, not a single one.

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