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Sunday, July 29, 2018

Mailvox: an open letter to Vox Day

Spencer Quinn writes an open letter to me, to which some Darkstream viewers have asked me to respond. I'll address the relevant sections:
Here is your position, as far as I can tell: White nationalism is unworkable, but the two main kinds of white nationalism are not the same thing and are therefore unworkable for different reasons. European white nationalism is a “non-starter” because Europeans are too ethnically disparate to make a pan-European country work without empire. Indeed, you believe that the indigenous French, Finns, Irish, et cetera are all separate nations in and of themselves, and so wouldn’t be interested in homogenizing Europe in any case.

As for American white nationalism, you seem to allow for white nationalism in theory but you question the timing. You believe it would take a thousand years or so for all the whites in America to interbreed well enough to form a real nation, one that would have a genuinely unique identity apart from the European nations from which it sprang. You also believe that the United States has between fifteen and thirty years before it breaks apart due non-white immigration and racial strife. Therefore any effort to stuff a thousand years of change into thirty is doomed to fail. Does this sum it up more or less accurately?
More or less, although the actual trigger for the political breakup is going to be economic in nature, so the effects of mass immigration and the increased racial and religious strife are merely going to multiply the consequences of the inevitable economic breakdown and ensure the shattering of the single polity into what could be anything from five to several hundred pieces.
So if American whites are completely incapable of functioning as a nation, then what were they doing between 1790 and 1965? Were they failing when they enjoyed a ninety percent majority of the country? Did they consider themselves ‘deracinated’ as well? Were the tiny proportions of non-whites in the United States the glue that held it all together? Is there anything in the American literature from that time period that tells us the American identity is a “false identity,” as you put it? What sources can you produce to back up such an uncompromising position? And can you explain why sources that don’t are unreliable?
Between 1790 and 1965, they were mostly spreading out across a mostly empty continent and fighting a brutal civil war. These other questions strike me as disingenuous and I will not bother to answer them, nor do I have any interest in playing the source game. But I will point out a few relevant facts: the USA is not a nation, it is an empire held together by the threat of military force. The American identity from 1790 through 1920 was British, hence the bits about "British brethren" from the Declaration of Independence; it was the British Crown from which the American Revolutionaries were declaring independence, after all, not the European nations in general. It was generally believed that non-British whites from Germany and other European nations would be able to become ersatz Anglo-Americans over time, although there were skeptics such as Ben Franklin from the start. In my opinion, the skeptics were correct and the optimists, such as George Washington, were wrong. It is clear that, for the most part, the descendants of the Spanish-Americans, German-Americans, Irish-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans, Italian-Americans, and various other European-Americans have never truly understood or supported limited government or the traditions of the English Common Law.
But according to your logic, white America would have broken off into ethnic enclaves before 1930. According to your logic, white Americans would have felt enough allegiance to the European powers they fought against in the world wars to rise up against American power. 
This is an inept and incorrect attempt to apply my logic to American history. That being said, many European-Americans most certainly did feel an allegiance to their European homelands, particularly during World War I.

When news of the war reached the United States in August 1914, immigrants from all over Europe reacted with sympathy and concern for the citizens of their home countries. Among those immigrants were thousands of German reservists who rushed to German consulates in the U.S. in an effort to return home and join the fight. German-Americans also held patriotic meetings in cities such as New York and Chicago and collected for war relief funds. Such enthusiastic “war fever” was prevalent among all immigrant groups, but since people of German origin made up a high percentage of the American population, they came under heightened public scrutiny....

In the fall of 1917, the fight against Germans in Europe was extended to their Kultur in the United States. This battle against all things German included a ban on the use of the German language in schools, universities, libraries, and religious services. Additionally, German societies, musical organizations, and theaters were shuttered and the German-language press in America was forced to shut down.

Note that this was a classic imperial reaction by a ruling nation to a restive subject one, even if it was a subject nation that had been voluntarily subjugated. To the extent German-Americans have been assimilated, it was through the ruthless suppression of their language, culture, and identity in the 20th century. But their genetic inclinations remain intact. Remember, even mass interbreeding will favor the dominant genetics.
One attempt you make is to point to tradition. When a reader asked you, “Why can’t the mixed whites in America band together as white and form a new nation and a new identity?” you answered “Because they all have different traditions.” As an example of such divisive traditions, you then how describe different Scandinavian peoples open Christmas presents on different days.

I believe that sound you’re hearing right now is the sound of everyone’s jaws dropping to the floor.

Not to offend you, Vox, but such an absurd objection to American white nationalism invites mockery.
Spencer can mock away if he likes. His inability to understand the obvious implications is not my problem. It is the multiplication of a thousand such seemingly small differences that irretrievably divide one identity from another. Few outside the Balkans can tell the difference between a Croat and a Serb, but that did not prevent them from fighting a war in the 1990s; the differences between a Prussian German and a Bavarian German or a Veneziano and a Napolitano are considerably less than the breadth of the "mixed whites in America" and yet they continue to have profound implications for the political instability of those modern states.

Spencer is welcome to imagine that blue-haired SJWs and Swedish-American DFLers and Italian-American mafiosi are going to join forces with him against the rising tide of La Raza Cosmica and the expanding global empire of the Han Chinese due solely to the color of their skin, but I wouldn't bet on it. The mistake he and other pan-white nationalists are making is to believe that most people are capable of making an identity shift on the basis of abstract information, which is directly contrary to everything we have learned about human nature since Aristotle. For example, most German Jews did not abandon their German self-identity until after they were personally arrested by their "fellow Germans". In like manner, the vast majority of white Americans will not identify themselves as part of as an intrinsically white nation until they are personally and explicitly and physically attacked for being American by non-whites who reject an American identity. Even then, some will not be emotionally capable of making the conceptual shift, not even if they are rejected by members of their own identity-complicated family.
How can someone believe in the fourteen words and not be a white nationalist?
Because, again, pan-white "nationalism" is not nationalism. There is no pan-white nation and there never will be a pan-white nation anymore than there will ever be a pan-Arab nation, a pan-Asian nation, or a pan-Red nation. Every historical attempt at pan-national supranationalism has eventually failed, from the American Indian alliances to the United Arab Republic. Destroying the European nations in order to save the white race is an epically stupid and historically ignorant strategy. Even if a "mixed-white nation" were to somehow come into existence over time, it would identify itself separately from other white nations. All there has ever been, all there will ever be, are empires where one identity rules over the others by force and/or numbers.
I do believe most white nationalists would agree with you that the civic nationalist option you seem to favor is still a pretty good option, especially if it could come without the price of a war.
I don't favor the civic nationalist option. That too has proven to be a false and failing form of nationalism. Spencer quite simply hasn't understood my position at all. There will be war. War is inevitable, and it will probably take place on a global scale. There has never been any movement of people of human history even one-tenth as large as the post-1965 invasion of the United States that has not either a) led to war, or b) been imposed by lethal force as the result of war. I believe the die is already cast, as do more than a few military historians of my acquaintance.

Like many people, Spencer does not understand that I am not an activist. I am not a politician nor am I part of any movement. I am an observer, a chronicler, and perhaps one day, a historian. I seek primarily to understand the patterns and trends of history, I do not seek to alter them nor do I really believe that is even possible. And I am far from the only one who expects the next American civil war to be worse than its predecessor.
The difference between the America of today and the America of what seems like just yesterday is that we once had a common culture. As recently as 1990, Ken Burns could make a Civil War documentary for PBS and let historian Shelby Foote wax eloquent on the martial prowess of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest —  something that now would likely get them both tarred, feathered, and Twitter-banned.

Yes, there were big differences between North and South a century and a half ago. The South was a slave-holding, free-trading, libertarian-leaning, conservative Christian, agricultural, aristocratic Sparta, while the North was a commercial, industrial, protectionist, Transcendentalist, social gospel, democratic Athens. But they held far more in common than separated them — beginning with the fact that, as Lincoln observed, “Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God.”

In the end, the war was fought over a single legal issue: whether the states that had freely ratified the Constitution to form the Union could freely leave the Union if they felt it no longer served their interests.... Today, however, our divisions are so deep and fundamental that Americans cannot even agree on what marriage is or what a man or a woman is (which is pretty darn fundamental).

Labels: ,

200 Comments:

Blogger Xellos July 29, 2018 6:24 AM  

>the civic nationalist option you seem to favor
>lolwut.jpg

>most white nationalists would agree that the civic nationalist option is still a pretty good option
Most white nationalists would tell Spencer to go back to the cuckshed.

Blogger Stilicho July 29, 2018 6:34 AM  

It took the better part of a millenium and the 100 years war for the French nation to emerge from the Roman and germanic (and viking for that matter) invasions.

England went a little faster, perhaps helped along by some isolation as an Island, but then got a huge setback via the Norman invasion which took a few more centuries to absorb/integrate.

Blogger Shimshon July 29, 2018 6:40 AM  

Let me tell you (a little) of my Jewish "German" grandfather and what I have read about the Jews of Germany.

Vox is 100% correct. The Jews, especially the ones who abandoned their heritage, had a deep love affair with all things Germans. Understandably so, when you read about just how dominant German culture, industry, technology, and so forth, were in the world before WWI. Hitler (ym"sh) was a concern to most Jews in Germany. But hardly enough to leave. Very few of the roughly 500,000 Jews in Germany of the day left. They figured they were as German as their neighbors, and they were so enmeshed in German life (true, if you read accounts of the time) that they would spared too much harm. Even many of the smart ones who left, went to places like Holland (the logic was compelling, as Holland did manage to evade being dragged into WWI). Think, Anne Frank.

Born in the city of Frankfurt, Germany, she lived most of her life in or near Amsterdam, the Netherlands. Born a German national, Frank lost her citizenship in 1941 and thus became stateless. The Frank family moved from Germany to Amsterdam in the early 1930s when the Nazis gained control over Germany. By May 1940, they were trapped in Amsterdam by the German occupation of the Netherlands. (Infogalactic)

I never met my grandfather. But my mother tells me, even after the Holocaust, how much he loved Germany, and spoke Hochdeutsch (think, Queen's English) at home. Her first language was actually German, but as soon as she got to school, she rebelled and refused to speak it anymore. My great grandmother (his mother), who I did meet as a young boy, was similar. She refused to speak Yiddish, even though she could obviously understand it (being mostly German). She too spoke only German.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len July 29, 2018 6:46 AM  

He's really so dopey he can't comprehend how a seemingly trivial thing like varying Christmas tradition even in as small an area as Scandinavia points to substantial underlying differences? Ever tried to explain cricket to an American, or describe how one can spot the settentrionale almost as soon as they speak?

Blogger Al K. Annossow July 29, 2018 6:49 AM  

I wonder if the white nationalists have trouble with these concepts because they can describe and physically separate out by race but they cannot identify a culture that they belong to. Even if they know the difference in definitions of national vs country, perhaps they don't sense it.

Between mass communication, the destruction via cultural Marxism's critical theory, and the loss of social capital, U.S.A. no longer has strong regional cultures. Or the regional cultures have waned into mere affectations. I don't have a good perspective, but I mostly see attempts to move toward the nothingness of rootless cosmopolitan businessmen. It strikes me as being neither a natural state for people nor as something on which to build a national identity.

Or maybe the white nationalists are trying to create a country-wide movement based on the internet and that doesn't translate into regional groups based on whatever is left of regional cultures.

Blogger DJT July 29, 2018 6:51 AM  

So what can be done? Do we just wait for the inevitable war and hope it turns out favorably?

Blogger Durandel July 29, 2018 6:52 AM  

@Stilicho - are you familiar with the UK? Spent time there? It isn’t monolithic. It may not be as internally divided as the nation of Italy, but there are cultural differences from region to region that I noticed. Even for a small island, multinational empire still describes the English Isles better than any other descriptor.

Blogger Rocklea Marina July 29, 2018 6:54 AM  

The former British colonies are so deracinated and propagandised that they actually think that "white" is an identity. It's not. It's a race. A biological category, nothing more.

On a not unrelated note, I'm really starting to notice the emptiness of the free speech rhetoric. Everyone of note appeals to it. Aside from having read A History of Freedom of Thought and agreeing with Vox's assessment of it's anti Christian intent, the current interpretation of free speech and it's meaning is, I believe, well beyond what the framers of the constitution intended. It was the federal government that was restricted by the first amendment, presumably to allow the states autonomy in their own comportment, a federation in it's true sense.

All free speech means now, its only meaning, is having to accept any idea, no matter how antithetical or perverse, as having equal value to your own ideas and culture. Do you see now how this relates to deracination of your nation?

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 29, 2018 6:54 AM  

Between mass communication, the destruction via cultural Marxism's critical theory, and the loss of social capital, U.S.A. no longer has strong regional cultures.

I think you would be surprised once you get away from the metropolitan areas. There is plenty of difference between a Southron and a Yankee. But I too had the thought about white nationalist lacking a strong attachment to a particular culture.

Blogger Al K. Annossow July 29, 2018 7:00 AM  

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:I think you would be surprised once you get away from the metropolitan areas.
I'll concede that point without any fight.

Blogger Looking Glass July 29, 2018 7:01 AM  

The ignorance of non-Western political history tends to show through in a lot of this stuff. They've literally tried this type of stuff before. https://infogalactic.com/info/Pan-Arabism It went badly, and, in a deep bit of irony, was more or less ended by American military might (plus some friends). Broad racial classifications lump Russians & Ukrainians together, when they were literally in a shooting war all of 4 years ago.

The other issue, as Vox points out, is that they simply don't understand the structure of the USA. Each of the 50 States has its own identity, along with local identities, plus broader regional identities built along descended European descendant lines, geography and religion. The difference is that the Constitution was supposed to be a truce among the sovereign States. That's the whole "United States" aspect.

The Civil War clearly ended whatever agreement there was, shifting into the American Empire that mostly left everyone alone. Until fairly recently, unless you were running contraband, the Feds were, for most Americans, "a bunch of people in DC". The Civil War ended the truce, but the Great Society was the coup de grace. That locked in the future wars, on multiple levels.

Now, this is going to end in a far more explicit Empire, but it also probably means a few major cities get burned to the ground for their insolence. We'll see.

"I seek primarily to understand the patterns and trends of history, I do not seek to alter them nor do I really believe that is even possible."

The way to render history is to build. That's the key that Evil spends a lot of time, effort & energy trying to hide from our eyes. You build within, then, from within, to without. That's the core insight that so much is written about these days. Everyone has a term for it (and something to sell you on it), but from within to without.

Also, the American Revolution was functionally a couple of really animated guys in Boston in the beginning, and Charles Martel just happened to do his duty well at the Battle of Tours, which changed the entire next Millennia of Western Christianity.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 29, 2018 7:02 AM  

In fact, I would go so far as to speculate that the mass media and universities are sharpening the divide in culture. Confederate monuments are being pulled down in cities that are dominated by Democrat politicians with a "diverse" population. The people in the surrounding countryside do not support these efforts. And it was Nikki Halley, a daughter of immigrants, who as governor of SC who presided over removing the confederate flag from the state house grounds. She thinks she is a viable contender for US president some day, but I predict that she destroyed any chance of that by that action.

Blogger dvdivx July 29, 2018 7:06 AM  

I've seen his level of stupidity before saying that Europe isn't worth mentioning because its diverse. The current situation with race mixing en masse and replacement immigration would be the equivalent of not just wanting to wipe out the Japanese people by replacing the but all Eastern Asians as well. This sickness is usually held by liberal whites. Other races have no problem seeing it as racial suicide. I'd say the only thing comparable would be native Americans only this time there will not even be reservations.

Blogger Looking Glass July 29, 2018 7:08 AM  

Don't Call Me Len wrote:He's really so dopey he can't comprehend how a seemingly trivial thing like varying Christmas tradition even in as small an area as Scandinavia points to substantial underlying differences? Ever tried to explain cricket to an American, or describe how one can spot the settentrionale almost as soon as they speak?

"What the f*** is a wicket?". "What do you mean a match takes more than a day to play?". "Why no gloves?". "How is this so popular, yet more boring that golf?".

I've tried. Real trick is to get Americans playing Aussie Rules Football. It'd be huge. And highly lethal.

Blogger Looking Glass July 29, 2018 7:13 AM  

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:Between mass communication, the destruction via cultural Marxism's critical theory, and the loss of social capital, U.S.A. no longer has strong regional cultures.

I think you would be surprised once you get away from the metropolitan areas. There is plenty of difference between a Southron and a Yankee. But I too had the thought about white nationalist lacking a strong attachment to a particular culture.


As Vox has shown, the "White Nationalists" are mostly Left of Center. If you think of them mostly as rootless cosmopolitans that simply don't want to be genocided, it makes a lot more sense. "Race" just happens to be something tangible, rather than the intangible "greater good" that Socialism hides great evil behind.

The other issue the WN have is that they've completely bought the Progressive propaganda. Why they seem so easily played.

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 7:17 AM  

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Blogger Silent Draco July 29, 2018 7:20 AM  

Looking Glass,

That would be awesome, especially if the safety people and all their padding receive the first full kick. Brutal, but great mayhem.

Other option would be to dial back to real rugby football, and let the different national groups build teams and leagues to their liking.

Sorry, no playing with the Kiwis. Those guys are brutal at the international level (All Blacks).

Blogger AvocadoBob July 29, 2018 7:25 AM  

If pan-nationalism worked, the EU would be a stunning display of success.

Blogger Shane Sullivan July 29, 2018 7:26 AM  

Vox, what kind of economic disaster do you see occurring? Federal Reserve going bankrupt?

Blogger Samuel Nock July 29, 2018 7:27 AM  

As far as the "inconsequentiality" of celebrating Christian on different days, the Venerable Bede spent a considerable part of his Ecclesiastical History of the English People's discussing the calculation and celebration of Easter, as it was crucial for trying to create a common identity among disparate peoples, which was not entirely successful.

Here is D.H. Farmer's summary of the matter from his introduction to Bede's History:

"The main theme of the History was the progression from diversity to unity. ... He saw Christianity as the unifying force which brought together Picts, Irish, Angles, Saxons, Jutes and, hopefully, Britons. A principal sign of this unity was the common celebration by all on the same day of the principal Christian mystery, that of the Passion and Resurrection of Christ. This was why any deviation or schism caused by rival calculations of Easter was so unacceptable. Bede's concern, almost obsession, with this issue shows itself repeatedly in his judgements on Welsh and Irish Christians, even St. Aidan. It also explains the great length of his account of the Synod of Whitby, the dramatic centre-piece of the whole work. The technical details of the 'Roman' calculation of the Easter date are explained at great length in Ceolfrith's letter to Nectan. This is immediately followed by the account of Iona's conformity to this reckoning in 716."

So dates of celebrations have been seen for 1,000 years as crucial to part of the identity of a people, and the attempts to create a new identity.

Also, Spencer calling Vox a "CivNat" truly shows ignorance on his (Spencer's) part...

Blogger VD July 29, 2018 7:27 AM  

So what can be done? Do we just wait for the inevitable war and hope it turns out favorably?

Why are you asking me? I don't even live on your continent. And I certainly don't have any influence over events there.

Do you ask William S. Lind where to deploy your light infantry formations and what their objectives should be?

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 7:28 AM  

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Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira July 29, 2018 7:29 AM  

Thinking that Italians and Germans and Irish and mangiacakes can form a single nation together is retarded. Where do these idiots keep coming from?

Blogger Vessimede Barstool July 29, 2018 7:33 AM  

The importing of millions upon millions of Muslims and Africans into Europe is an act so irrational and insane it guarantees near endless war for the next century. The left and (((globalists))) who have enabled this disaster understand the all or nothing nature of their gamble. Either they'll succeed and rule over an average IQ 80 population of slaves, allowing them to indulge their nauseating perversions, or they'll be stood against walls or hung from lamp posts. In the future the word Merkel will be the most heinous profanity in the German Language.

Blogger yoghi.llama July 29, 2018 7:34 AM  

Early in American history, I’m sure English, Dutch, and German settlers weren’t terribly fond of each other, but when faced with bands of Indians intent upon killing them, they circled their wagons pretty quick.

He's got a point. Fighting and trekking together can make you loyal to each other. The Afrikaners are descended from a small band of people 2/3 Dutch, 1/6 French, 1/6 German, but they interbred quickly.

Today, pretty much all white peoples are civilized and they do this civilization thing pretty well too.

Nope. Albanians are savages.

Making the news these days is how thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of hard-working Boer farmers are planning to immigrate to Russia.

Much sympathy to the Russians. It will cause major headaches. They won't convert to Orthodox Christianity and they won't integrate.

Blogger Ghog July 29, 2018 7:40 AM  

I'm the whitest white man you will ever see. I am Irish, German and Swedish. Red hair and blue eyes. I feel no real attachment to my European heritage and I do not really have any culture other than family traditions. Where and with who would I fight in this coming war? I am no Anglo, but I'm white. Would I not join with those of like color? Perhaps an army of gingers. Yes, we truly are the master race.

Blogger Teleros July 29, 2018 7:50 AM  

yoghi.llama wrote:Early in American history, I’m sure English, Dutch, and German settlers weren’t terribly fond of each other, but when faced with bands of Indians intent upon killing them, they circled their wagons pretty quick.

He's got a point. Fighting and trekking together can make you loyal to each other. The Afrikaners are descended from a small band of people 2/3 Dutch, 1/6 French, 1/6 German, but they interbred quickly.


Yes, that's probably the best bet for any kind of white nationalism in America, at least in the short to medium term. In the long term however - well for example, VD makes the point that non-Brits never really got the traditions of common law and such, so there might still be issues further down the road. Still, "crucible of war" and the like are cliches for a reason.

Ghog wrote:I'm the whitest white man you will ever see. I am Irish, German and Swedish. Red hair and blue eyes. I feel no real attachment to my European heritage and I do not really have any culture other than family traditions. Where and with who would I fight in this coming war? I am no Anglo, but I'm white. Would I not join with those of like color? Perhaps an army of gingers. Yes, we truly are the master race.

Congratulations, you are officially a special snowflake.

Blogger Ghog July 29, 2018 7:52 AM  

Thank you. I love all of you. Please dont harsh my mellow.

Blogger VD July 29, 2018 7:53 AM  

The Afrikaners are descended from a small band of people 2/3 Dutch, 1/6 French, 1/6 German, but they interbred quickly.

And the white British rounded them up and put them in concentration camps, then sold them out to the black South Africans. The white South Africans, British and Boer alike, face far more pressure than anyone in the USA or Europe. And yet even they haven't become white nationalists.

It's a total non-starter.

Blogger VD July 29, 2018 7:54 AM  

Yes, we truly are the master race.

I would have expected the master race to have souls. I stand corrected.

Blogger Ghog July 29, 2018 7:56 AM  

That would be your undoing.

Tell me, will you fight with the Mexicans or the natives

Blogger dienw July 29, 2018 8:02 AM  

Ghog wrote:I'm the whitest white man you will ever see. I am Irish, German and Swedish. Red hair and blue eyes. I feel no real attachment to my European heritage and I do not really have any culture other than family traditions. Where and with who would I fight in this coming war? I am no Anglo, but I'm white. Would I not join with those of like color? Perhaps an army of gingers. Yes, we truly are the master race.

Ah yes, "Beware the ginger-bred man."

Blogger I DontTroll July 29, 2018 8:02 AM  

DJT wrote:So what can be done? Do we just wait for the inevitable war and hope it turns out favorably?

I don't think it's going to turn out favorably for you if you are talking like that.

Blogger Rocklea Marina July 29, 2018 8:10 AM  

I think half-caste gingers and quadroons can be considered partially ensouled, there is speculations as to whether this gives them special powers akin to the Nephilim.

Blogger Ghog July 29, 2018 8:11 AM  

You've been warned. After church today, the Red Headed League will meet to plan your abolition. The time has come for the Red Ones to prevail.

Blogger Zeke OF Confettii July 29, 2018 8:11 AM  

Aussie Rules: Gaelic Football adapted to inversed seasons.

Blogger Othello July 29, 2018 8:15 AM  

“First thing we do is kill all the lawyers.”
- Shakespeare

Blogger M. Bibliophile July 29, 2018 8:37 AM  

A new nation can be forged out of disparate peoples living in proximity but it requires (at least) two things: an external threat/force that keeps the peace and time. Lots and lots of time for the natural intermarriage at the edges to sufficiently blur the lines. The most frustrating thing about our current predicament is that we were on our way to creating a legitimate American race when 1965 happened and the subsequent chaos put us at each other's throats. What that did was completely remove the chance to create the said new American (as opposed to primarily British, as Vox has correctly observed) people peacefully. Now, the external threat is the anti-White coalition being deliberately put together and not the Federal government making everyone "play nice." If we shut off the spigot tomorrow and went back to the policies of c.1950 vis a vis making everyone identify culturally as Americans first, last, and always, we might stand a chance. That won't happen, so there will be war.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 29, 2018 8:38 AM  

@3 Significant difference between the Jews in Germany and the Ostjuden in that respect.

Blogger Anno Ruse July 29, 2018 8:42 AM  

"Why are you asking me? I don't even live on your continent. And I certainly don't have any influence over events there."

I'm not sure if this is one of those +2SD things or just a Vox Day thing but here's my take on it. In America, when you observe a problem, you're expected to have a solution for it. You give us the problem without the solution. Maybe that's how they do it where you're from. I can only speak for Americans.

It took me a while to understand you view all this as some sort of intellectual game that you're playing with yourself. Readers less familiar with your habits will be confused because they think you're actually trying to communicate with us.

Blogger Phillip George July 29, 2018 8:52 AM  

Putin knows all this......

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-07-28/putin-calls-christianity-foundation-of-russian-state

to paraphrase myself, if Jesus isn't the flag, your nation has no future..

it's just a tool, a disposable tool

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 8:53 AM  

@Ghog

Come on lad. You are wallowing in the Ginger delusion. You have my sympathy!

Blogger nswhorse July 29, 2018 8:55 AM  

The real, real trick is to get the whole of Australia playing Australian rules football. Roughly 50% of our population follows it as a religion. The other 50% don't give a shit, except for expats and an odd person here and there, and instead follow the two Rugby codes, especially Rugby League.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 29, 2018 8:56 AM  

I'll hazard a guess is that when you start thinking in "isms" you start believing the materialist assumption that people are fungible.

All isms in the end are bunk, perhaps necessary to remain coherent for a time but in the end bunk.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 8:59 AM  

I seek primarily to understand the patterns and trends of history.

Yes. Because history has lessons. There is a 6 part series on YouTube about the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, this series documents America's near future.

Blogger M. Bibliophile July 29, 2018 9:00 AM  

@Anno Ruse

Vox does propose solutions, just not always explicitly nor with every post. One of the things I love about this place is how he makes the observations and then largely leaves the rest as an exercise for the reader. He sees the larger patterns better than most modern commentators and constantly repeating what obviously should be done gets tedious after a while, especially when beset by edge cases and "what about..." every time.

Blogger Baseball Savant July 29, 2018 9:03 AM  

I'm not sure if this is one of those +2SD things or just a Vox Day thing but here's my take on it. In America, when you observe a problem, you're expected to have a solution for it. You give us the problem without the solution. Maybe that's how they do it where you're from. I can only speak for Americans.

I see where you are coming from, but VD is never going to offer up solutions and he's right not to do so. In fact, I think a better way of understanding VD is looking at his activities and understand that he is actually very much fighting a war (and winning) in what most would believe an unwinnable war. And he's right. And he's MUCH more forward thinking than I think most give him credit for. People ask for solutions all the time, but what I've come to understand is that there are no solutions and VD's observations are there for us to use if we are wise enough to use them. And I think one of the reasons for this is VD's exceptional knowledge of history. The problems the US or the world faces isn't something that you can look at in the short term. There is no "solution" that is going to solve everything.

The best analogy I can come up with is me coming up through Campus Crusade for Christ when I was an undergraduate. I mean, as an older adult I know see that it was basically a cucked out churchian organization, but they really drill it into your heads that the only way to really affect change for the Lord is to become a staff member and do projects/stints in other countries. It's not the long game and I'm more than a little disappointed that Crusade didn't push big families and legacy type thinking, but as I got older, married and 5 children of my own, I gradually began to start thinking that THIS is what real missionary work is. My dedication to the legitimate Christian faith propagated through my children and hopefully generations to come isn't something that I'll see, but if my 5 kids have 5 kids each then that's 25 grandkids. If those 25 have 5 then that's 125 great grandkids. If those 125 have 5 it's 625 great grandkids. If those 625 have 5 then all of a sudden I have 3,125 great-great grandkids. I'll never see that and it might be far fetched for these numbers to realize, but that's the solution itself.

Vox is essentially saying the same by not having solutions. VD is fighting a war that is incredibly difficult and he's hammering it. It's up to us (or you) or anyone else to fight their battles for the greater good. He can't fight them for you.

Blogger yoghi.llama July 29, 2018 9:08 AM  

And the white British rounded them up and put them in concentration camps

My grandfather was born in one of the concentration camps, I'm only 3/4 English.

then sold them out to the black South Africans

Only Pietersburg voted no, so the Afrikaners did sell themselves out to some degree as well. I think what a lot of people don't get is that White South Africans, despite the fearsome reputation, are probably the most liberal and progressive Whites around. They honestly always cared about the Blacks. They sincerely wanted to help them, uplift them, and teach them to become like Whites. "Ethnic autism."

Blogger wreckage July 29, 2018 9:11 AM  

Switzerland stabilized itself with strict and detailed segregation by region, with AFAIK no enforced segregation thereafter. Each Canton retains significant self-determination. The problem with this peaceful surrender of USA Universalist Imperialism is that the Universalists would prefer anything, including the Holocaust Redux, over relinquishing their faith in universalism and the prestige of Empire.

In other words, the US People could survive the end of the US Imperial State, except that far too many of them would prefer to burn the entire thing down around them.

That said, I still think we're going to see something really, REALLY interesting in terms of mass spontaneous re-organization, rather than Vox's prediction of a bloodbath.

Blogger Northwest Watching Thing July 29, 2018 9:20 AM  

My solution, is to recognize that war is coming, that no matter where I go I'll be affected. Figure out where likely fronts will be, and locate family accordingly. I might make the wrong decision, but I'll still be better off than the tens of millions that never saw it coming.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 29, 2018 9:21 AM  

The WNs clowns that they are could serve the purpose of over reaction from the establishment, eventually all the clownish intellectual level drivel that no one will remember in a generation will give way to the establishment being challenged where it counts on the moral level of conflict.

Blogger Chris Mallory July 29, 2018 9:24 AM  

M. Bibliophile wrote:A new nation can be forged out of disparate peoples living in proximity but it requires (at least) two things: an external threat/force that keeps the peace and time.


Please give examples.


M. Bibliophile wrote:we were on our way to creating a legitimate American race when 1965

No, no we were not. We still had hordes of Irish Americans, Italian Americans, German Americans and every other flavor of Fake American roaming the land.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 29, 2018 9:27 AM  

@42

He needs to check his Ginger privilege. How can we possibly achieve true equality, let alone an adequately-vibrant degree of diversity, unless we have the courage to fight the demon of Ginger supremacism wherever it rears its ugly head?

@45
In partticular, look at what other actions accompanied the desecration of sacred statues, and look at what's happening to statues now. Statues that are not literally sacred, but are deeply symbolic to a particular people.

Blogger Avalanche July 29, 2018 9:27 AM  

@38 ?A new nation can be forged out of disparate peoples living in proximity but it requires (at least) two things: an external threat/force that keeps the peace and time."

You mean, like the Azerbaijani's and Armenians? The Armenians and the Turks? The Serbs and Kosovans? Mayans and Aztecs? Japanese and Ainu? Han and everyone else? ANY of the Soviet's forced-together peoples?

There is not enough time EVER to "mesh" two people into one. Diversity + proximity = war. It may take the removal of your external threat (Soviets, say?) to LET them pull apart, but once the "disparate people" are out from under, they immediately SELF-SORT back into their own people.

Blogger Peaceful Poster July 29, 2018 9:27 AM  

I am not an activist

Readers/viewers of Castalia House, Infogalactic, Voxiversity etc. would beg to differ.

Blogger DraveckysHumerus July 29, 2018 9:33 AM  

14.
I'm a former rugger. On most teams I played for, when we experienced a noteworthy week of practice, we were awarded 40 minutes of Rules play on Thursdays. Many of us would have switched from rugby to Rules if we had been granted the choice. Fantastic game, and thanks for the memories.

Blogger Baseball Savant July 29, 2018 9:33 AM  

Readers/viewers of Castalia House, Infogalactic, Voxiversity etc. would beg to differ.

As a reader/viewer of all 3 examples, I can't see how any of them can viewed as Vox being an activist. That doesn't make any sense.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 29, 2018 9:34 AM  

@52
Please give examples

Israel. I mean, Judaism is "just a religion," right? And the settlers came from all over the world, speaking sifferenr languages, and with different customs...

Very inspiring. The only democracy in the Middle East. And our greatest ally, too.

Blogger VD July 29, 2018 9:37 AM  

In America, when you observe a problem, you're expected to have a solution for it. You give us the problem without the solution. Maybe that's how they do it where you're from. I can only speak for Americans.

The fact that the diagnostician is not a surgeon says absolutely nothing about the accuracy of his diagnosis. It doesn't matter how badly you want me to be a surgeon, it still isn't going to make me one or change the relevance of my diagnosis.

It took me a while to understand you view all this as some sort of intellectual game that you're playing with yourself. Readers less familiar with your habits will be confused because they think you're actually trying to communicate with us.

I'm the exact opposite of Jordan Peterson. He's trying to tell people what to do while claiming he's just trying to work out the truth. I'm just trying to work out the truth and people think I'm telling them what to do.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 29, 2018 9:39 AM  

@32

Ah yes, "Beware the ginger-bred man."

The Nine Words:
"You can't catch me -- I'm the whitest white man."

Blogger Ken Prescott July 29, 2018 9:39 AM  

Among those immigrants were thousands of German reservists who rushed to German consulates in the U.S. in an effort to return home and join the fight.

It continued well after that, too. In World War II, Brewster Aircraft got a contract to build Corsairs (F3As). They subsequently had the ONLY documented case of US industrial sabotage in World War II. When the Navy inspected some of the first aircraft to be delivered, they found that the arrester hook strut itself had been cut 3/4 through.

There was no other explanation for that other than deliberate sabotage and the case was instrumental in Brewster being shut down. The company recruited its workforce from the Hudson and Housatonic valleys, both areas that were heavily Germanic in origin and were strongholds of the pre-war German-American Bunds. Even today, there's a German-American club in the region called the Arion Singing Society.

Any guesses as to what it was called in 1940?

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 29, 2018 9:45 AM  

Not OT. Yesterday I became aware that "The Paramount Network" is about to air a documentary series, Rest In Power: The Trayvon Martin Story." From the preview I saw its going all in on the Saint Trayvon angle.

https://www.dailyherald.com/entlife/20180729/paramounts-rest-in-power-explores-the-trayvon-martin-story

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 29, 2018 9:46 AM  

A: "I think we can stuff this 10 pounds of manure into this 5-pound bag."
Vox: "It's not possible. It won't fit."
B: "It's customary for the person pointing out a problem to offer a solution."

That's a good point about Americans of different nationalities having room to spread out. Elbow room makes it easier to get along. My town had an Irish Catholic parish and a German Catholic parish, because it was a growing town with space in every direction, so why not? Even after both groups spoke English, the same families tended to stick to each one. They still would today, if they hadn't both been closed and consolidated with others when numbers dropped in the 1990s.

Their descendants still have differing allegiances and cultural habits, but you'd have to talk to them a while to see it. From the outside, they look like a homogeneous bunch of white people who all go to both Octoberfest and the St. Patrick's Day parade.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 9:49 AM  

" But I will point out a few relevant facts: the USA is not a nation, it is an empire held together by the threat of military force."

As a practical matter of history I agree with those above who have pointed out that all large nations and even small nations are composed of disparate elements that have repel each other and don't just attract. Someone mentioned the history of France, and England, and Italy, and Ireland. I like the example of the former Czecho-Slovakia, which was stuck together with duct tape and wire for a while but then peacefully split up just as soon as the geo-political situation allowed for it. And even at that the Czech Republic is not one people but several, still, even without the Slovaks. Would there be a Czech Republic if the Bohemians took their jack boots off the necks of the Moravians?

So, what I'm saying is, it is very simplistic to boil down the USA empire only to military force. The South had to give up slavery, but otherwise they managed to extract significant political concessions that mitigated the issue of having been conquered back in to the Union with military force. And this time if the South tried to leave again a lot of us who live in the former Union states would beg them to let us go with them and turn the issue on its head.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 9:50 AM  

"composed of disparate elements that have repel each other and don't just attract."

I should proof read my comments but I'm at work and I don't have time. Sorry.

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 29, 2018 9:50 AM  

So much confusion among our deracinated culture. I guess this example will be similar to the "whiggers" who identify as rappers and the vanilla Business Cosmopolitans who have a culture of "nice" (whatever that is). Our family attended a church for awhile on Saturdays. This church was attempting the reintegration of Saturday Sabbath keeping. They called themselves "Messianic Jews." It was a bit hilarious watching a bunch of former German-Americans, Irish Americans, Italian Americans, et. al. with their thick southern accents trying to sing songs in Hebrew. They had all the regalia of the funny little hats and robes and blowing some animal horn they called the shofar.

We eventually left as I realized, we might follow the same Messiah (Jesus) but I didn't want to become Jewish and take on all of the accouterments of Jewish culture. Why should we? We have our own Southern American culture don't we?

Oh wait...

Blogger Redpill Angel July 29, 2018 9:52 AM  

US blacks are dumb as rocks, mostly, but they don't sit around arguing about the tribal affiliations of their ancestors in West Africa. They also won't care about the details of my grandchildren's European ancestry when the s$&@ hits the fan. Your analysis is deadly accurate, as usual, but disturbing, and possibly reflects your own status as an expatriate of mixed blood. Why, indeed, the 14 words? This blog has changed my thinking radically, but you offer no solutions, and leave me more confused. Just to fend off the "too short for this ride" comments, VD, I'm also a National Merit semi-finalist, former member of Mensa, and Betty Crocker Homemaker of Tomorrow state finalist, badda boom. But I think like a woman so maybe I'm missing something.

Blogger HalibetLector July 29, 2018 9:53 AM  

Rocklea Marina wrote:All free speech means now, its only meaning, is having to accept any idea, no matter how antithetical or perverse, as having equal value to your own ideas and culture. Do you see now how this relates to deracination of your nation?

That's not quite true. "Free speech", as enshrined in the first ammendment, means we can't be thrown in jail for speaking unpopular opinions. This happens throughout the EU right now whenever you question the immigration invasion in any way. That alone is worth preserving the 1st ammendment. As for the rest, I agree that 'freedom of speech' as it is defined by the left doesn't exist in America, nor should it. There will always be social repercussions to saying things that the majority don't agree with.

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:There is plenty of difference between a Southron and a Yankee.

I find that distinction only made in southern states. If you visit rural New England, you'd be hard pressed to get a New Hampshire Yankee to agree with a Massachusetts Yankee to agree with a Mainer Yankee. From a genetic perspective, the demographics I'm reading shows the population of most areas in New England are evenly split between French/French Canadian, English and Irish. In my neck of Rural NY, it's split between French, German and Irish. As far as I can tell, the British "yankee" descendants in NY have either been driven out or diluted to below 20% in most counties. Especially in NYC.

Blogger Baseball Savant July 29, 2018 9:54 AM  

But I think like a woman so maybe I'm missing something.

you are

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 29, 2018 9:55 AM  

For those of you looking for an answer, Vox has given it previously: Get married, have lots of children, homeschool and raise them to be followers of Jesus. The end.

If we can manage that piece, the culture will grow up from those seeds.

Blogger M. Bibliophile July 29, 2018 10:01 AM  

@Chris Mallory

France, England, most of post Roman Europe. Poland is an example of absorbtion, unless you know any Wends running around. See also: Anglo-Saxon.

Also, when I say time, I mean on the order of centuries. Of course there were still lots of divisions in 1965, but culturally we had a semi-decent pathway that could have seen a severe blurring or even de facto disappearance of those categories in a few centuries. It would have required immigration kept below about 5% of the population, though.

@Avalanche

Can does not mean will. Again, you need that overriding external force that makes nations play nice, and the end result can look more like an absorbtion rather than an equal merge. In that case what comes out the other end would be heavily influenced by the absorbed culture but unrecognizable to a purist from centuries before. This doesn't happen in a few years, but over the better part of a millennium if not longer.

Blogger Baseball Savant July 29, 2018 10:04 AM  

For those of you looking for an answer, Vox has given it previously: Get married, have lots of children, homeschool and raise them to be followers of Jesus. The end.

If we can manage that piece, the culture will grow up from those seeds.


People don't want to hear that.

Blogger VD July 29, 2018 10:10 AM  

Your analysis is deadly accurate, as usual, but disturbing, and possibly reflects your own status as an expatriate of mixed blood. Why, indeed, the 14 words?

If it's accurate, it's accurate. Don't commit the genetic fallacy.

Why? Because I like flush toilets, functioning infrastructure, and Western civilization. One does not need to be 100 percent white to appreciate and value the benefits of Christendom anymore than one needs to be a Christian.

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 10:10 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 29, 2018 10:13 AM  

In America, when you observe a problem, you're expected to have a solution for it. You give us the problem without the solution.

The upside of this approach is that it favors immediately practical solutions, and discourages pointless whining.

One of the downsides is that it is not so useful in approaching issues where the biggest problem is that the majority of people simply do not see things as they are. The Narrative and reality have diverged to such an extent that it is not even possible for people to see potential solutions without discarding some of the basic assumptions of that narrative/ worldview/ Matrix/ whatever. Deconstructing The Narrative, and promoting a more realistic worldview, is action. It's an essential first step. Otherwise it's just "Ready. Fire. Aim."

The "What's your solutiin, then?" mindset also tends to lead to the conflation of normative and positive statements. You see this in leftists a lot -- the idea that if you accurately describe an aspect of reality, or make accurate predictions based on crimethink-based assumptions, you somehow "caused" that outcome. Whereas those who studiously ignored reality in order to promote the "right" "solutions" are, of course, Good People, regardless of outcome. See also "moralistic fallacy."

If I accurately note that the most parsimonious and empirically-supported explanation for "the gap" in education has to do with genetic racial differences, am I in any way obligated to "solve the problem?"

TL:DR: "Is" and "Ought" are different concepts.

Blogger Desillusionerad July 29, 2018 10:18 AM  

Chris Mallory wrote:Please give examples.


you can have two - Switzerland for a country, and African Americans for a nation (ethnicity).

Chris Mallory wrote:No, no we were not. We still had hordes of Irish Americans, Italian Americans, German Americans and every other flavor of Fake American roaming the land.

Would it have been a 'perfect' nation like the Danes for example, No.
But it probably would have been a dysfunctional substitute like the Italians are to the Danes - To a certain extent even if every single american was a 'real' american, the mere size and geographic spread of the US would create pockets of difference.

Blogger Tom Rogers July 29, 2018 10:18 AM  

Vox Day,

I don't share your religious beliefs, but I admire you for stridently defending British America. That shows character. There aren't many who would do this.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 29, 2018 10:28 AM  

@63
OK, that's a more succinct version.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 29, 2018 10:28 AM  

If you visit rural New England, you'd be hard pressed to get a New Hampshire Yankee to agree with a Massachusetts Yankee to agree with a Mainer Yankee.

There is a lot of variation in the South as well. Tennesseans will tell you whether they are from East, Middle, or West Tennessee. If you're from East Tennessee then you are an Appalachian. People from Middle and West Tennessee are not.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 10:29 AM  

@Northwest Watching Thing

As Vox said a few articles ago, get fit, get hard, and always be prepared.

Blogger tz July 29, 2018 10:31 AM  

It is hard enough to convince people of unpleasant truths even with clear reason and evidence (even Al Gore). To get people to carefully and rationally decide what to do about it (even if nothing) is harder.

The "US is really 11 Nations" articles are still valid, but I expect there are clear subdivisions - Utah is not Wyoming is not North Dakota though they are part of the "far west".

In 2008 the financial system froze for a few days and there was chaos. Now it is even more fragile.

The "just in time" economy with very long supply lines is the second part of this accident wating to happen. Either will cause chaos: credit/debit or EBT/SNAP cards don't work, or there is nothing to buy with them.

California's grid was near collapse, they aren't building more supply (and destroying what they have), but they want more electric vehicles?

Blogger Baseball Savant July 29, 2018 10:33 AM  

There is a lot of variation in the South as well. Tennesseans will tell you whether they are from East, Middle, or West Tennessee. If you're from East Tennessee then you are an Appalachian. People from Middle and West Tennessee are not.

It's this way in Indiana. I grew up in Evansville and we believe we are from Southern Indiana, and people from New Albany or Seymour or Jasper are a part of northern Indiana. Of course people from northern Indiana think people from Evansville are basically Kentuckians. It's even divided more than that up in the northern Indiana where a section is called "The Region" and the people are known as the Region Rats. It's kind of a sports specific term, but still.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 10:34 AM  

"California's grid was near collapse, they aren't building more supply (and destroying what they have), but they want more electric vehicles?"

Forget it, Jake, it's Gruberfornia.

Blogger marco moltisanti July 29, 2018 10:36 AM  

"The American identity from 1790 through 1920 was British, hence the bits about "British brethren" from the Declaration of Independence"

Vox, IIRC you've said in the past that the true American identity is English and that to be a real American one must be of at least 50% English ancestry. Since I respect your ideas and I'm pretty much evenly of English, Scottish, and Scandinavian descent, I've asked before how the Scots factor in. Does your saying "British" here rather than "English" mean that you're specifying that people whose ancestors are from anywhere in the UK, not just England, can be real Americans in your opinion?

Blogger tz July 29, 2018 10:41 AM  

What to do?

First, Deus Vult. Thy will be done, but we should fast and pray for it to be a third great awakening instead of something like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Second, basic preps - if the infrastructure fails? If you don't have heat or water for two weeks? two months? If you are in a city and the hate mob is coming to your neighborhood? Don't fear, but be Joseph the Patriarch - God is providing now.

Third, don't plan too hard, we don't know the future. Who in 2014 predicted Trump even as a possibility and the direction he is going? We prefer maps and gps with the entire route to the destination mapped out in advance, but we are doing a road rally. We have economic threats, social breakdown, but these are localized. We might have a new plague, the cities might be in flames next month, or late November. I don't know, and only God does. He has given us instructions on how to behave waiting for his triumphant return.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 10:43 AM  

@Insight

Re: Russia taking in South Africa.

You're missing a very important point. Whilst it is true that Russia and China have an anti-US strategic partnership, the Russians have a profound demogragraphic imbalance viz China and it worries them. They are giving land to anyone who turns up in order to further populate their far East where they recognise that China may try and take one day.
Hence Russia wooing Germany. Whilst true that this could break up NATO (a major Russian aim) the main focus IMO is the longer-term Chinese threat.

Blogger Redpill Angel July 29, 2018 10:45 AM  

#69 Baseball Savant answered me - But I think like a woman so maybe I'm missing something.

you are

Baseball, I am not offended by so-called "mansplaining," if the man knows more than I do. I've learned a lot from brighter men. Go on, enlighten me. That's why I'm here. I won't cry.

Blogger FrankNorman July 29, 2018 10:46 AM  

73. VD July 29, 2018 10:10 AM
Why? Because I like flush toilets, functioning infrastructure, and Western civilization. One does not need to be 100 percent white to appreciate and value the benefits of Christendom anymore than one needs to be a Christian.


But one obviously needs to be something, that apparently not everyone is, given how so many people simply take those things for granted and assume that they will still be there regardless of what people are running the show.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 10:52 AM  

@TZ

Re: disruption in supply chains.

A woman (can't recall name) has an article and there's a podcast interview with her, called: when the trucks stop running.

Very sobering. You might also want to check out the work of Bill Holter on YouTube.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 10:56 AM  

@TZ

What to do?

As Vox has said, get fit, get hard, and always be prepared.
As anonymousconservative is fond of saying:
ITZ coming.

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 10:58 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger tz July 29, 2018 10:59 AM  

I think there is a tendency to confuse the red-blue upcoming civil war - the Trumpsters v.s. the DSA, and the Trumpsters being individual tribes in their zones.

Trumpland is a federation, not a nation. The DSA is like the USSR that insists on communism for all.

The DSA will fall, but then no one knows how Trumpland will form itself. Trumpland is national, but civic even if mainly white. It will lead to actual nations later, but that may be decades.

example of more DSA:
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/29/david-garcia-governor-race-arizona/ might be the next Ocasio-Cortez

Blogger Jack Amok July 29, 2018 11:01 AM  

the vast majority of white Americans will not identify themselves as part of as an intrinsically white nation until they are personally and explicitly and physically attacked for being American by non-whites who reject an American identity.

After it's all over and we're building statues of the Hero's of the Refounding, we'll have to include one of some kneeling football players.

Blogger Redskyinmorning July 29, 2018 11:07 AM  

I agree. I had a really difficult time understanding the Spanish civil war (chaos)...until about 2010. Then it became clear.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 11:09 AM  

@Francis Parker Yockey

Would too many redheads being in one place be called a ginvasion?

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 11:11 AM  

@Ron Winkelheimer

I've got a son. And he's nothing like Trayvon (paraphrasing Obama).

Blogger Playto July 29, 2018 11:12 AM  

Great insight. I've noticed the same thing too.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 29, 2018 11:14 AM  

@12 Ron Winkleheimer

And it was Nikki Halley, a daughter of immigrants, who as governor of SC who presided over removing the confederate flag from the state house grounds. She thinks she is a viable contender for US president some day, but I predict that she destroyed any chance of that by that action.
---

This is a prime example of why Civ Nat is a disaster. As a Southerner, that action by an anchor baby is unforgivable.

Blogger pyrrhus July 29, 2018 11:17 AM  

Making the news these days is how thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of hard-working Boer farmers are planning to immigrate to Russia.

Much sympathy to the Russians. It will cause major headaches. They won't convert to Orthodox Christianity and they won't integrate.

Hard workers, Russians won't have any problems with them as long as they don't let them vote..

Blogger pyrrhus July 29, 2018 11:19 AM  

@98 Nikrama is just another alien trying to destroy American culture. She should be deported.

Blogger #6277 Hammer July 29, 2018 11:26 AM  

Insight: "Admittingly my knowledge of SA and the Boers is very limited"

Then don't talk shit about them.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 11:33 AM  

@Insight

Re: Russia taking g South Africans.

It's a real dilemma for the Russians. But their fear of eventual Chinese invasion one day is real.

Blogger Mark Stoval July 29, 2018 11:35 AM  

Interesting post and thread. I want to make note of a few things while they will be on-topic.

First, as Vox has pointed out, the USA is an Empire and so even more than just a nation-State. Inside the territory of the "lower 48" we find plenty of room to untangle this Godawful mess. That does not mean we will, just that we can.

When the war comes, all the whites would do well to join together as allies and destroy the non-white races inside the borders of the USA. We can let Hawaii and Alaska go. Then let each state become its own nation and with freedom of association I believe that the nations* can sort themselves out.

If we find that the whites don't have the fortitude to kill all the non-whites, then at least put them in the southwest and allow none in the other parts of what is now the USA.

I can see Tennessee then breaking apart with east Tennessee joining western Carolina and other areas where we share the same mountain culture.

So, I suggest that one course of action is a war against the non-whites and their left-wing allies (of any color) and then a natural separation of the rest into areas so that the various nations* are formed.

I think the only way with no bloodshed at all would occur is if each State (like Georgia) became its own nation-state and then tossed out everyone to become only one nation*. Of course California could continue to be a shit-hole and try to show the rest of us how wrong we are.

*nation = a community of people who share a common language, culture, values, traditions, ethnicity, descent, and history.

Blogger phunktor July 29, 2018 11:36 AM  

Cleanup, aisle 74 --toxic, ignorant threadjack in progress

Blogger Were-Puppy July 29, 2018 11:40 AM  

@32 dienw
Ah yes, "Beware the ginger-bred man."
---

I used to know this black guy who called gingerbread man cookies "little colored boys".

Blogger tz July 29, 2018 11:41 AM  

The civic nationalists quote the 2nd paragraph on equality, but miss the opening

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one PEOPLE to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another 

H/T Michael Anton from his "End of Conservatism" lecture video.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 29, 2018 11:42 AM  

@35 Ghog
You've been warned. After church today, the Red Headed League will meet to plan your abolition. The time has come for the Red Ones to prevail.
---

There are Native American legends of red headed giants. They Indians chased them into caves, sealed them in, and gassed them all.

Blogger HalibetLector July 29, 2018 11:55 AM  

Were-Puppy wrote:There are Native American legends of red headed giants. They Indians chased them into caves, sealed them in, and gassed them all.

Those savages. Neanderthal lives matter!

Blogger Zander Stander July 29, 2018 11:55 AM  

The idea was not to live among them, remember the word apartheid(coming to a Hebrew ethno state soon)? Definitely no white negroes here, apart from the cucked&converged elites.

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 11:58 AM  

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Blogger OneWingedShark July 29, 2018 12:03 PM  

Rocklea Marina wrote:the current interpretation of free speech and it's meaning is, I believe, well beyond what the framers of the constitution intended. It was the federal government that was restricted by the first amendment, presumably to allow the states autonomy in their own comportment, a federation in it's true sense.
Indeed it is.
The First Amendment very explicitly applies to one portion of the federal government: the Congress. The doctrine of "incorporation" is rebellion against the constraints of the Constitution by the Judiciary, usurpation and unlawful powers the Judiciary grants itself, easily provable by the First Amendment: in order for applying the First Amendment to the States they would have to themselves have a Congress to be restricted, but they do not (they have legislatures), so by the application having some effect there must be some point when and some mechanism whereby the text is transformed before the application, and this is the Judge/Justice magically (ie by arbitrariness; as opposed to logically, or lawfully, etc) -- but the Judiciary has no place in amending the Constitution in any manner.

VD wrote:Yes, we truly are the master race.

I would have expected the master race to have souls. I stand corrected.

Well, being soulless does allow one to operate without regard for their immortal soul.

English Tom wrote:@TZ

Re: disruption in supply chains.

A woman (can't recall name) has an article and there's a podcast interview with her, called: when the trucks stop running.

Very sobering. You might also want to check out the work of Bill Holter on YouTube.

Thank you; I'll have to check those out.

Blogger Zander Stander July 29, 2018 12:03 PM  

Well these sub IQ white niggers built nuclear bombs before you were born. How many other white nations could do that?

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 12:06 PM  

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Blogger Zander Stander July 29, 2018 12:09 PM  

Only for the cucked&converged "elites", read academia and media.

Blogger Insight July 29, 2018 12:13 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Mocheirge July 29, 2018 12:19 PM  

(time to create a new, organic nation) = [(geographic area)^4] / (external force)

Armenia wasn't always a single nation, but being a small area surrounded by enemies enabled it to emerge as a nation relatively quickly.

The same could happen in America, but the amount of time required makes it realistically impossible. The fact our border is so porous makes the external force decrease, which also will increase time.

Blogger Ty Brant July 29, 2018 12:32 PM  

HalibetLector, it sounds like you are in the North Country so i have to ask, why haven't you left yet?

Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 29, 2018 12:33 PM  

Zander Stander wrote:Well these sub IQ white niggers built nuclear bombs before you were born. How many other white nations could do that?

Built nuclear weapons, had an unassailable position in a rich land, then surrendered to the savages who are now murdering them, for the feelz. The Africaners aren't stupid, they're cucks. That's far worse.

Blogger kmbr July 29, 2018 12:34 PM  

@99

No but if there is one thing the Russians need it is people who excel at "making things function smoothly". And aint nobody does that quite like the Dutch.

Blogger tublecane July 29, 2018 12:38 PM  

"The USA is not a nation, it is an empire held together by the threat of military force."

People take far too little notice of the fact that a mere 70 years into our "experiment," one part of the supposed nation had to physically conquer another part to keep the thing going. That's about the same span of time we've lived in the New Deal state. Think about that.

This is the very reason I demure from calling myself a nationalist, preferring instead sub-nationalist or something of the like. Not that I'm not for the political self-determination of national peoples. It just strikes me as most nation-states are too big and not worthy of the name. Aside from being useful as blockades against globalism and supernationalism, and as a way to break up empires, they may be more trouble than they're worth.

At least the U.S. from its Founding to the Third Revolution of the 1930s had a dominant culture and ruling class, the WASPs. Without even that to bind us, what are we?

Blogger kmbr July 29, 2018 12:39 PM  

@50 --My solution, is to recognize that war is coming, that no matter where I go I'll be affected.--

Agreed. I think pretty much the same way.

I look at these white women with their black husbands (here in suburbia they marry) and mulatto children and think, they really have no idea the life they've laid out for those kids with what is coming.



Blogger #6277 Hammer July 29, 2018 12:39 PM  

Ominous Coward - "The Africaners aren't stupid, they're cucks. That's far worse."

We didn't vote for a Kenyan homosexual with a tranny wife as president.

Blogger Harris July 29, 2018 12:45 PM  

Prior to the advent of the EU, when they were entering into the agreement, I wrote that it was destined to fail due to the big cultural and language (but I repeat myself) differences in the various nations on the continent. I've been arguing just as long that the big wave of Catholic immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries fundamentally changed the nature of the USA because Catholicism is not compatible with American style Republican Democracy. In order for the original idea of America to remain rooted, and a Protestant belief in the "Priesthood of the Believer" was a necessary condition to America being born. Furthermore, the key Pre-Revolution event that took place was the Great Awakening in the 1740's and 1750's, which resulted in a shared understanding of Christianity among the various colonies. Without that spiritual and religious revival, Thomas Paine's pamphlet "Common Sense", which explicitly uses passages of the Bible in 1 Samuel to reject the Divine Right of Kings would not have been widely accepted.

Those who believe in some pan-Caucasian identity are historically and culturally ignorant. The reason the KKK was able to take hold initially is because there was a single culture. With the dilution of Anglo-American population, there is not longer a single "white" culture in which the KKK can survive, much less thrive. Simply put, those who believe in a pan-Caucasian identity are severely deluded.

Blogger dienw July 29, 2018 12:59 PM  


@Chris Mallory
"...German Americans and every other flavor of Fake American roaming the land."

You had better reconsider Americans descended from Germans as being fake Americans. Look at the maps.

Blogger FrankNorman July 29, 2018 1:00 PM  

Regarding the Russians - their country is already a multi-ethnic federation, just one in which one ethnicity clearly calls the tune.

Blogger dienw July 29, 2018 1:04 PM  

Tennesseans will tell you whether they are from East, Middle, or West Tennessee. If you're from East Tennessee then you are an Appalachian. People from Middle and West Tennessee are not.

So, to apply the American Empire breakup theme to Tennessee, the state is really an empire ruled from Nashville; hence we await the violent breakup of Tennessee into three or more independent nations?

Blogger Some Guy July 29, 2018 1:07 PM  

Vox,

I have a question. At the Tower of Babel, God divided the people into nations, tribes, and tongues. I’m trying to get my head around this division. I believe it is intentionally ambiguous so that it becomes difficult for people to reunite as Satan would have us do. Do you see those categories as a hierarchy of people within a nation, or are they separate and distinct divisions that intentionally muddy the water?

Blogger Some Guy July 29, 2018 1:18 PM  

https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/28/putin-christianity-foundation-russian-nationhood-cultural-identity/

And I believe I know why they hate Purim and Russia so much.

Blogger Some Guy July 29, 2018 1:19 PM  

Putin

I HATE AUTOCORRECT!!!!

Blogger Redpill Angel July 29, 2018 1:25 PM  

VD said: If it's accurate, it's accurate. Don't commit the genetic fallacy.

Ok, point taken.

Why? Because I like flush toilets, functioning infrastructure, and Western civilization. One does not need to be 100 percent white to appreciate and value the benefits of Christendom anymore than one needs to be a Christian.

Ok, thank you for clarifying.

Blogger justaguy July 29, 2018 1:31 PM  

While I agree with VD on many things, I do not believe that the US will devolve into war. I think that if we follow the current trajectory, the progressives/statist will win and have enough power to prevent any real revolt. Too many churchian sheep, cucked males, and indoctrinated people will go along with the huge security apparatus. The only question is whether or not the state that grows from the deep state will be smart enough to find enough smart indocs to keep the system going. My guess- and it is just a guess, is that the "war" will be much less than the one in the late 1960s and early 1970s- where the revolutionaries won and as seen by the O as president, ran the country.

We have seen active ops run by the FBI and DOJ against a pres candidate and then pres with little blowback. The population and voting are slowly building against us. In summary- I don't see some far away victory from an uprising-- only a computer enabled big brother ruling as the elite as too many of us willingly go to the state for our chance at middle class.

Blogger Redpill Angel July 29, 2018 1:32 PM  

#69 Baseball Savant answered me - But I think like a woman so maybe I'm missing something.

you are

Never mind, I figured it out: by concerning myself with my own grandchildren's fate, I commit the error of female solipsism. So be it.

Blogger DonReynolds July 29, 2018 1:46 PM  

Probably the best remembered person who railed against "hyphenated Americans" was Theodore Roosevelt, so his name should be mentioned.

On the suppression of all things German during the world wars, my first thought was of the banking system. Yes, the banking system. Ed Potter, one of the great pioneers in banking, started his bank in the back of his father's drug store in Nashville with $200. It was named the German-American Bank, which was changed to Commerce Union, and now we know it as Regions Bank. The huge Bank of America out of San Francisco was originally called the Italian-American Bank, but due to hard feelings during WWII was forced to change their name.

I have always felt that there was nothing particularly weird about crossing the Atlantic ocean by ship....whether sailing ship or steam ship. People came off the dock area relatively unchanged. They brought with them every bit of the European culture, politics, religion, and old alliances/animosities they knew in the Old Country. (The same was true in San Francisco for Chinese and Japanese.) Those who found refuge in ethnic neighborhoods could continue to live much as they had in the past with the same language, foods, and societies. Those that did not became assimilated into the larger American society...which was Anglo-German. (I have not heard of any immigrants ending up in Negro areas and being assimilated into that segment. But there may have been a few.)

Anyone who claims Americans were more united and in agreement until recently know nothing about this country's history. There was no such unity. WE have always been incompatible peoples, even back to colonial times.

Vox is correct. The empire of states was held together by bayonets and the hangman's noose BUT also by the fact that the national government was very weak and largely ineffectual or disinterested in domestic affairs. The Federal government did not take a direct interest in "social justice" until after WWII and reached the ridiculous stage around 1970. Since then, it has been a scream in the night.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 1:47 PM  

"We didn't vote for a Kenyan homosexual with a tranny wife as president. "

From what I know about the ANC, I'm afraid that you guys sort of did, in a way.

I sympathize to the extent that a lot of white South Africans figured they had no choice but to surrender to the cannibals, but, I knew you guys were toast as soon as you let the terrorist Nelson Mandela out of prison, and then I knew for sure you were burnt toast when you turned in to a "democracy" and let the terrorist become President. You can't be in a "democracy" with cannibals because they will invariably and inevitably vote to have you for dinner.

Blogger DonReynolds July 29, 2018 2:02 PM  

"Not to offend you, Vox, but such an absurd objection to American white nationalism invites mockery."

American white nationalism is a very small shop with a very big sign. When I encounter them, I remind them of a very simple fact......

Most of the people in this country who want you DEAD are other white Americans!

No, they are not your friends, they are not your allies, they are not your fellow countrymen. They are your mortal enemies and given half of an excuse they would lock you away in prison for life or have you shot as a traitor. So much for American white nationalism.

Blogger Hammerli280 July 29, 2018 2:05 PM  

Any large state will inevitably suffer cohesion problems. England (far less the UK), France...it's a normal problem.

What worries me a lot more is that the Democrats seem to have been taken over by a neo-Jacobin/Bolshevik faction. The people who think they can and should mass-murder their way to Utopia. And if they get back into power, I expect them to try.

And I think that's the most likely scenario for a major civil conflict.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 2:08 PM  

@Ominous Cowherd

Re: South Africa

David Icke wrote a while ago that there was a family called (((Oppenheimer))) who owned most of S.A. stock market companies during apartheid era, and when apartheid ended and the blacks took over, this family still held most of the S.A. companies.

Nothing is ever what it seems.

Blogger English Tom July 29, 2018 2:18 PM  

@Hammerli280

Re: the neo jacobin/Bolshevik faction taking control

I believe Kyle Reese said some very apt words to Sarah Connor about the terminator's intentions which reflect the mentality of the insane left.

Blogger Baseball Savant July 29, 2018 2:18 PM  

#69 Baseball Savant answered me - But I think like a woman so maybe I'm missing something.

you are

Never mind, I figured it out: by concerning myself with my own grandchildren's fate, I commit the error of female solipsism. So be it.


No. Vox explained it in comment #73. The desire for "solutions" is no different than anyone else here or in the past 17 years who have tried to get Vox to hammer away at solutions. Like he has already said, just because he's not a surgeon doesn't make the diagnosis incorrect. VD gives solutions every single day here. It's up to us to figure out how to apply those solutions to our own lives.

Blogger tz July 29, 2018 2:25 PM  

Do the Math!
i.e. move to North Dakota - magic soil!

Blogger tz July 29, 2018 2:28 PM  

Better to live as a "guest" in Christendom than to live as a king in Pagandom.
(for the latter, think Zimbabwe or Venezuela, and as they continue to decay; or the "we don't need no steenking state" Somalia, where the Somali seem to prefer ours)

Blogger SciVo July 29, 2018 2:47 PM  

Ghog wrote:I'm the whitest white man you will ever see. I am Irish, German and Swedish. Red hair and blue eyes. I feel no real attachment to my European heritage and I do not really have any culture other than family traditions. Where and with who would I fight in this coming war? I am no Anglo, but I'm white. Would I not join with those of like color?

Which do you have more in common with: a faggy SJW or a country black? A bowtie cuckservative or a country liberal? Which would you rather have at your back?

I think you misunderstand. It is not that identity will be irrelevant; rather, it is that even in the case of an economic collapse, even after prior partisan alignments dissolve, it will not be so simple as skin color.

Angelo Codevilla made a good argument for a real division between the Ruling Class (and its clerisy and clients) and the Country Class. That will certainly be complicated by race, but there is a far more fundamental conflict between those (like us) who have nowhere else in the world where we belong, and hyphenated Americans that do.

This also roughly corresponds with those who know that this is a nation of pioneers, and those who subscribe to the self-serving myth of a nation of immigrants. It also roughly corresponds with those who favor sustainable policies that would preserve and nurture the American nation (such as it is), and those leeches working to suck it dry.

Blogger Jack Amok July 29, 2018 2:52 PM  

WE have always been incompatible peoples, even back to colonial times.

I wouldn't say incompatible. More like semi-compatible. We can get along when we're involved in something grand, or something with disaster lurking around the corner (maybe they're the same thing). I've started to wonder if peace with England (the "Pig War", which immediately preceded the War of Northern Aggression and Southern Stubbornness, made it clear Great Britain wasn't interested in a war with the US), and the final collapse of the Spanish empire in the New World (1820's through the humiliation of Mexico in the 1840's), didn't give North and South the sense they had no external enemies, so they could start falling out with one another.

You don't get to choose what nation you belong to. You belong to the nation that will have you. More people will have you when they're under siege than when they're sipping cocktails in the sun.

Blogger Robert What? July 29, 2018 3:10 PM  

@Vox, I'm really confused now. Civic Nationalism is a non starter, White Nationalism is a non starter, Nazism is a non starter, pan Europeanism is a non starter, and there will never be a majority Ango American nation again. So what is not a non starter?

Blogger Hammerli280 July 29, 2018 3:11 PM  

@143: Good point. There's always internal friction, even in the smallest groups. But there are also forces working for increased cohesion. An external threat is one of them.

I'm not willing to give up on the United States. But I do think it's essential to take all possible measures to build national identity and cohesion. Diversity isn't a strength, it's a weakness.

Blogger Jack Amok July 29, 2018 3:13 PM  

Angelo Codevilla made a good argument for a real division between the Ruling Class (and its clerisy and clients) and the Country Class. That will certainly be complicated by race, but there is a far more fundamental conflict between those (like us) who have nowhere else in the world where we belong, and hyphenated Americans that do.

In Medieval Europe, what you had were various nations (English, West Franks, Ostfranks, Burgundians, Danes, assorted Slavs, etc. etc.) and a pan-national Nobility ruling them. The serfs and freemen spoke local dialects and had local (national) customs, but their rulers spoke Latin and had their own elite customs separate from the yokels. In fact, it was generally scandalous for a Noble to be found engaging in too much local culture.

Nobles squabbled with each other, but weren't generally concerned with the peons they ruled. It was relatively common to summon a distant cousin from halfway across Europe to come and take over as King. It was even more common to marry the local Prince off to a Princess from a distant land. Far better for the future King to have "noble" blood from another nation than to have commoner's blood from one's own...

Ultimately the rise of nationalism put an end to that, but it took a while. Nearly two centuries between the 30 Year's War and Napoleon, who started the final act for Feudal Europe (and another hundred years until WWI put a stake in the heart of it). Four hundred years total from the time Martin Luther hammered his Theses to door in Wittenburg until the last gasp of European Nobility choked on the mustard gas as Queen Victoria's grandchildren got their subjects killed by the bushel load fighting each other.

Globalists today are trying to undo that, trying to shove nationalism back into the bottle so they can rule pan-national empires. Nationalism will win again, but it's worth remembering that the nationalism that won in the breakup of Feudal Europe included some mergers (Burgundy ceased to be a separate nation, it's now part of France).

Blogger #6277 Hammer July 29, 2018 3:14 PM  

Alphaeus:

"From what I know about the ANC, I'm afraid that you guys sort of did, in a way."

I get that. The point is not all white South Africans are Afrikaners. Just as not all white "Americans" were Americans who voted for the gay mulatto.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 3:19 PM  

" Civic Nationalism is a non starter,"

I think Vox and Friends are somewhat mistaken about this, depending on how it is defined.

The most important thing I've learned by being a Bircher is that:

The Essence of Liberty IS the Limitation of Government.

I care most about limiting the power and scope of government, more so than I care about whether my local restaurants serve hot dogs, pizza, or tacos.

It's a sad shame if white people become extinct, but it is a complete and utter catastrophe for the human race, it is the END of the humanity of the human race, if the crucial importance of limiting the power and scope of government is lost to human understanding.

Actually I think that this is inevitable. Eventually the human race, being immensely stupid evil & crazy, will give up completely on liberty and freedom and vote to give The Beast all the power he wants, and that's when the End comes, just like John Revealed to us.

But I'm going silent in to that stupid evil crazy night, I'm kicking and screaming every step of the way.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 3:26 PM  

"Just as not all white "Americans" were Americans who voted for the gay mulatto."

I'm so ashamed of my countrymen for doing that. I feel like that even though I did NOT personally vote for the gay mulatto, I need to wear the guilt for it my self like an asshat.

Blogger DonReynolds July 29, 2018 3:27 PM  

Jack Amok wrote:WE have always been incompatible peoples, even back to colonial times.

I wouldn't say incompatible. More like semi-compatible. We can get along when we're involved in something grand, or something with disaster lurking around the corner (maybe they're the same thing). I've started to wonder if peace with England (the "Pig War", which immediately preceded the War of Northern Aggression and Southern Stubbornness, made it clear Great Britain wasn't interested in a war with the US), and the final collapse of the Spanish empire in the New World (1820's through the humiliation of Mexico in the 1840's), didn't give North and South the sense they had no external enemies, so they could start falling out with one another.


Very good, Jack.
Many people have no idea how many times the US has come close to war with Britain since the Revolution.

When Andrew Jackson called Sam Houston out of exile with the Cherokees, the Raven expected to be sent to Oregon for the war with England. Instead, Jackson sent Houston to Texas. War with England was entirely possible over the boundary dispute in Oregon (which also became Washington).

Blogger The Deplorable Podunk Ken Ramsey July 29, 2018 3:33 PM  

Once in Wyoming I found and sent a postcard to back home. It depicted a peaceful valley below, and a fleet of UFO flying saucers coming in from above. The card read, "SOS! The Californians are here!"

Much truth in that, white coastal Californians often do present practically as alien beings. They and their ways are truly foreign to white people where I'm from in Appalachia. And they all seem to have a white irrational hatred for those of us from Appalachia, too, built in. They may never have met one of us, doesn't matter, we are clueless, toothless hayseeds who live out scenes from THEIR sick movie, "Deliverance", every day.


I don't think we'd ever get along. And, if we find ourselves in a foxhole with these people, we'd have to constantly watch our backs. And never sleep.

Blogger The Deplorable Podunk Ken Ramsey July 29, 2018 3:33 PM  

*white hot irrational hatred* Grr.

Blogger SciVo July 29, 2018 3:40 PM  

Alphaeus wrote:" Civic Nationalism is a non starter,"

I think Vox and Friends are somewhat mistaken about this, depending on how it is defined.

The most important thing I've learned by being a Bircher is that:

The Essence of Liberty IS the Limitation of Government.


That's nice. It's also pretty much just an Anglo-American thing. Swamp us with hyphenateds and you dilute away the ability to comprehend liberty, much less desire it. I believe that was the result of the 1965 Immigration Act (compounded by non-enforcement), and was intended to be.

Blogger JD Curtis July 29, 2018 3:41 PM  

As recently as 1990, Ken Burns could make a Civil War documentary for PBS and let historian Shelby Foote wax eloquent on the martial prowess of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest — something that now would likely get them both tarred, feathered, and Twitter-banned

@ VD
It so happens I'm currently putting together a defense of Nathan Bedford Forrest for submission to a southern newspaper.
If published I'd like to email it to you for your critique.

Blogger tublecane July 29, 2018 4:03 PM  

@146- "globalists are trying to undo that."

Which sounds like they're going back to the old ways, which they aren't. Except in the sense of an elite class ruling over alien peoples. And it is indeed a sort of serfdom they're after, but it'll be as different from feudalism as you can possibly imagine.

In a sense, globalists are continuing the leftward trend represented by nationalism. Not that all nationalists were leftists, and a lot of them were fighting against imperialists and universalists. However, the net effect was a cobbling of peoples and greater centralization of power in different places.

Imperialism, pan-nationalism, and globalism are opposed by the Ancien Regime as well as nationalism. It wouldn't work to undo the latter a n d return to the former for globalists. They'd have so much less power.

Though I suppose some of them wouldn't mind ruling over little fiefdoms. As certain people do at present. (Slavery still exists, after all.) These are the real "robber barons." However, this has little to nothing to do with the grand historical struggle at present.

Blogger Alphaeus July 29, 2018 4:03 PM  

"who live out scenes from THEIR sick movie, "Deliverance", every day."

It's ironic that the depraved perverts of Gruberfornia are the ones LARPing out reenactments of the "love scene" from that movie every day, much more so than the normal folks who live in Appalachia.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother July 29, 2018 4:17 PM  

Tublecane, your knock on nationalism is misplaced. We aren't trying to pull together people that don't belong together or want to be together. We're restoring pre existing nations.

Natio- to be born.

Blogger Ghog July 29, 2018 4:53 PM  

Purim is funnier

Blogger Ghog July 29, 2018 4:55 PM  

Typical

Blogger John Calla July 29, 2018 5:31 PM  

The rise of nationalism in Europe will result in many wars. Unless there is some kind of transcendent political, cultural and moral framework. (And I don't see anything suitable coming to replace the EU.) This will be especially true once resources become more scarce from economic contraction.

I mean, they already hate each other over there. All they need is a spark.

Blogger DonReynolds July 29, 2018 5:43 PM  

The EU is nothing more than the Fourth Reich. Hitler and the Kaiser never thought it could be so easy. Nothing more than the Holy Roman Empire.

Europe would do perfectly well without a supra-national organization to do their thinking.

Blogger HalibetLector July 29, 2018 5:48 PM  

Robert What? wrote:@Vox, I'm really confused now. Civic Nationalism is a non starter, White Nationalism is a non starter, Nazism is a non starter, pan Europeanism is a non starter, and there will never be a majority Ango American nation again. So what is not a non starter?

I'd look into Switzerland and its history. It doesn't have a single cohesive culture or nation, but they've been stable for far longer than the average. Vox has said before he thinks the US will break up. I tend to agree. Hopefully, in the best case scenario, the USA will look more like Europe when it's done.

Ty Brant wrote:HalibetLector, it sounds like you are in the North Country so i have to ask, why haven't you left yet?

Are you another denizen of the North Country? I did leave. I lived in San Francisco for 5 years working in the Silicon Valley startup scene as a programmer. I went back home when I realized several things: Silicon Valley is a stone cold con, city living isn't for me and I missed my family. My family is keeping me here for the moment, but the more I internalize the reality that the USA will breakup in my lifetime, the more I realize I don't want to be here with a family of my own when the inevitable happens. Any suggestions on where I should be looking to move? New Hampshire, Maine and Montana look ok, but it's hard to predict how things will shake out 30 years down the line.

Blogger The Kurgan July 29, 2018 6:06 PM  

I have never understood why anyone ever thought free speech was a real thing or that it could ever exist. One may as well believe in flying unicorns.

Blogger The Kurgan July 29, 2018 6:24 PM  

Well...technically you could say Vox is punching for Jesus. And doing so really well.
If you consider the crusaders of 1095 to be “activists” then I’d say Vox qualifies.

Blogger Robert What? July 29, 2018 6:28 PM  

@HalibetLector,

Your point about Switzerland is valid, except for two major differences: a much smaller population; a much smaller dependent class vs the population; and mostly White (although different varieties). Ok that's three things but who's counting? Hopefully the future broken apart US will get along as peacefully, but I doubt it. The Blue sections will be at constant war with the Red sections as the Blue sections will have no means of supporting themselves.

Blogger SciVo July 29, 2018 6:56 PM  

SciVo wrote:... there is a far more fundamental conflict between those (like us) who have nowhere else in the world where we belong, and hyphenated Americans that do.

This also roughly corresponds with those who know that this is a nation of pioneers, and those who subscribe to the self-serving myth of a nation of immigrants. It also roughly corresponds with those who favor sustainable policies that would preserve and nurture the American nation (such as it is), and those leeches working to suck it dry.


To elaborate on this, I think that an important aspect of preparation is the accumulation of productive capacity such as land, vehicles, tools, and machines. Where guns come in is that eventually the insider manipulation of financial assets will be leveraged into an attempt to siphon hard assets, such as through extortionate property taxes; at that point even the most naive dullard, that was born yesterday and immediately fell off a turnip truck, should see the *irreversible* end of the American nation at hand.

Creation and destruction are power; as long as we have both, it's never really over. But the disempowered will find what little they have left taken away.

SciVo wrote:Swamp us with hyphenateds and you dilute away the ability to comprehend liberty, much less desire it. I believe that was the result of the 1965 Immigration Act (compounded by non-enforcement), and was intended to be.

To elaborate on that, a perfect example is Democrats and their Jim Crow laws. They stubbornly insist that opposition to today's gay Jim Crow is directly equal to support for yesterday's white Jim Crow, and I have chosen to take them at their word that they really believe it. This leads to the conclusion that no matter how well we explain, they literally CANNOT COMPREHEND just letting business owners decide for themselves.

Blogger DonReynolds July 29, 2018 7:11 PM  

@162 HalibetLector
"Any suggestions on where I should be looking to move?"

I have always suggested anywhere along I-40....from the Carolina coast to central Oklahoma. You could live there for years at a time without many of the modern conveniences....like electricity, heating oil, natural gas, or coal. Summers can be mild and the winter bearable. Wherever you go, assume the only way out will be to walk out.

When things blow up of this magnitude, it takes years for them to end. The US civil war was pretty short (4 years), compared to the American revolution (8 years), or the French revolution (10 years), or the Russian revolution (5 years). Everybody thinks in terms of this upheaval being over before the next winter, but I seriously doubt it.

Blogger Jack Amok July 29, 2018 7:38 PM  

Imperialism, pan-nationalism, and globalism are opposed by the Ancien Regime as well as nationalism. It wouldn't work to undo the latter a n d return to the former for globalists. They'd have so much less power.

Oh, they very much want to re-establish the Ancien Regime. Just with themselves in charge and a different religion to bind the masses.

Blogger Jack Amok July 29, 2018 7:41 PM  

Instead, Jackson sent Houston to Texas.

Speaking of Texas, and points south, I suspect the ease with which Mexico was defeated made the Yankees a little nervous. A lot of territory was available to the South pretty much for the taking in Latin America. Preserving a balance between North and South was proving hard enough with westward expansion. If expansion into the former Spanish empire became big enough, it would be impossible.

Blogger DonReynolds July 29, 2018 8:01 PM  

Jack Amok wrote: Instead, Jackson sent Houston to Texas.

Speaking of Texas, and points south, I suspect the ease with which Mexico was defeated made the Yankees a little nervous. A lot of territory was available to the South pretty much for the taking in Latin America. Preserving a balance between North and South was proving hard enough with westward expansion. If expansion into the former Spanish empire became big enough, it would be impossible.


Absolutely correct, Jack.
Not a matter of speculation but a fact that the Yankees opposed making the Republic of Texas a state for TEN YEARS. (It had too many Southerners in it.)

Other Southern adventurers (like William Walker) tried to create the buffer state of Sonora in Northern Mexico. That campaign failed. (Walker was later elected president of Nicaragua....the only American to ever be elected head of a foreign country.)
There were also plans to overthrow Spanish rule in the Caribbean islands, especially Cuba, which they hoped to admit as a new US state.

Blogger tublecane July 29, 2018 8:37 PM  

@157- I am all on board for separating people up with who belongs with whom. But historically nations, or things recognized as such, have smooshed together people who don't really belong, to the point where the brand is ruined. Definitely to where the nation-state brand is ruined.

Blogger tublecane July 29, 2018 8:43 PM  

@168- They would be desperately unhappy with the power of a old monarch. Do you truly not realize who GLOBAL are their ambitions (hence globalism)? Or how limited were the powers of a feudal lord?

I'm not talking about the Enlightenment fantasy of crown and church despotism, but the real thing. Which gave us a million little enpires in Europe alone. The grand vision for the future is the entire earth composed of interchangeable consumption units managed scientifically from the center, but since it's going to be anarcho-tyranny with a billion mafia lords thrown in.

Blogger justaguy July 29, 2018 9:12 PM  

167--Thinking about living someplace with modern utilities becomes Hobsean - brutish and short. It also gets small communities killed off by larger tribes, especially if the ruling authority scoffs at the small communities as deplorables and doesn't care to protect them. Man needs a community to live and modern man needs a large community to live.

Blogger God Emperor Memes July 29, 2018 9:13 PM  

Because League is superior, both to play and as a televisable event

Blogger Unknown July 29, 2018 9:15 PM  

>the South was a slave-holding, free-trading, libertarian-leaning, conservative Christian

Notice the TOTALLY BLATANT attempt to associate libertarians and Christians as all being pro-slavery racists.

Frak those people.

Blogger kurt9 July 29, 2018 9:24 PM  

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Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 29, 2018 9:41 PM  

@175:"Notice the TOTALLY BLATANT attempt to associate libertarians and Christians as all being pro-slavery racists."

Christians and Libertards? Both groups are insulted by that conflation.

Blogger kurt9 July 29, 2018 9:45 PM  

This discussion definitely has a "Snow Crash" air about it. "Victoria" (Lind's prefered city-state) and "Snow Crash" are essentially the same. The fact that we all don't like each other means there will be chaos and violence along the way. But the end result will be what we call the "Thousand State" sovereignty model of the world, say, around 2050. Lind, Vox, and other alt-right guys are not the first to come up with this idea. I had a professor in business school in 1990 who also believed that we were headed for the thousand state sovereignty world. Heinlein forsaw such a thing in one of his novels as well.

The thousand state world makes sense, not only from an ethnic idendity standpoint as Vox alludes to, but from an economic one. Automation, 3-D printing and other technological advances will favor the small over the large. Even objects as complicated as jumbo jets could come to be manfactured by a few hundred people by 2050. The economic basis of large scale political entities is becoming obsolete. The world could be a thousand city-states and other small countries, all trading and doing business with other on the basis of rational self-interest. Such a world would not only be more stable, but would actually be better than what we live in now.

It is worth noting that medieval Europe had its trading city-states such as Venice and Genoa. Singapore is an example of the modern (and future) version of such. The trading city-state have always been cosmopolitan, even during medieval Europe.

Vox thinks the thousand state world will come through war. I think it will come partly through war, but mostly through technological advances and economic competition. Either way its coming. Unlike Vox, I see no reason to see it so darkly. Trade, business, and technology will never go away. If anything, having a thousand indepedent city-states and other states competing with each other will probably increase technological innovation and economic dynamism. For example, there won't be an FDA to inhibit the development of bio-medicine.

I live in Vacouver Washington. Perhaps we could become a North American version of Singapore. We do have a nice big port and have the land to build another airport (if PDX became unavailabor for wahatever reason).

Blogger kurt9 July 29, 2018 9:55 PM  

Seasteading becomes more practial in the thousand state world because there is no longer a continental nation-state government to prevent people from doing so. Crypto-currencies will be big in the thousand state world. They could actually help bring it about.

I think "Snow Crash" is as good of depiction of how it happens as "Victoria".

Blogger Dire Badger July 29, 2018 10:30 PM  

#6277 Hammer wrote:Ominous Coward - "The Africaners aren't stupid, they're cucks. That's far worse."

We didn't vote for a Kenyan homosexual with a tranny wife as president.


Neither did we.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 29, 2018 10:48 PM  

About 100 million Fake Americans and Treasonous Americans favored the queer Kenyan and his trannie "wife". About 100 million Americans were disgusted with the traitors offered as an alternative and stayed home. Slightly less than 100 million Americans voted for McStain or Mittens. We may not be doing so badly.

The Trumpslide indicates that there is hope for us yet: God hasn't abandoned us to our depravity quite yet.

Blogger zh July 30, 2018 12:02 AM  

"You can't be in a "democracy" with cannibals because they will invariably and inevitably vote to have you for dinner."

Yep, but what would you expect from low IQ white niggers, reason?

Blogger Gospace July 30, 2018 2:18 AM  

I'm not certain a lot of people discussing things here truly understand just how mixed and widespread Americans are. On my mother's side, I have to go to my 4G-grandfather to find an ancestor who died in the same state they were born in. Using just her surname- I have living 3rd-8th cousins in at least 20 different states. Throw in the married names of the family females and we're probably talking all 50 states. My 5 children now live in 3 states. And that's going to increase when my youngest graduates college with commission in hand.

But yet there's a distant cousin living in the home my 5G-grandfather built, with my mother's surname.

In direct ancestry I have to go back to my 6G-grandfather in any branch that's been here that long to find marriages between 1st or second cousins.

One of my daughters-in-law is my 10th cousin 3X removed. My direct ancestors reproduced prolifically, but slowly, and almost all my living distant cousins are 1-3X removed. For example, Barbara (Pierce) Bush is my 8th cousin, so the 2nd President Bush, 10 years older than me is my 8th 1X removed. 9th cousin to my children, the youngest just turned 19.

Home, to all of us, isn't the South, or the North, or the Mountain States, or Appalachia. Home is The United States. All of them.

Now my father's name in the U.S. is a little more limited. A whopping 3 first cousins, only one of whom's reproduced. No 2nd cousins, my grandfather was an only child. 17 total related to me, 10 are my descendants. Back in Great Britain I can find a bunch, over 100, living distant cousins with my surname. Possibly even more, but no one, including me, has yet traced a common ancestor for my 4G-grandfather b-1765 with all the other same surname people from Lancashire who lived at the same time, all in the same industry. All the relatives there I can trace live within a 100 mile radius. Probably closer to 75. They haven't mixed with Scots or Irish. Though a few have married Welsh- they mostly live on a border county. They certainly haven't mixed with any other Europeans.

Which brings me back to my ancestry. English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Cornish, Bavarian (Germany didn't exist as Germany then), Genoan (Same with Italy), Dutch, French Huguenot. And other families I've traced show similar mixtures. The vast majority of white Americans identify as American because they're anything else. Especially if any of their ancestors have been here for more than 4 generations.

The only group(s) to separate themselves and not breed with everyone else are the various Anabaptist groups, such as Mennonites and Amish. They've held themselves apart from the American community at large. The various Eastern Orthodox communities seem to intrabreed for about 3 generations before they start mixing with everyone else. But they eventually do.

Our motto is E Pluribus Unum, from many, one. Our Constitution doesn't recognize group identities or group rights. But the Democrat Party is now, and always has been, the party of group rights. They've never believed in individual rights. And now their coalition is splitting apart over who gets the spoils. I see turmoil ahead as we return to the rule of law and not the rule of judges. But I don't see the U.S. splitting apart any time soon. Because so many of us have relatives spread all over. And keeping it all together is in our common interest.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 4:59 AM  

A farmer in Michigan has more in common with a farmer in Georgia than either of them have with a city-dweller within their own state.

Rural vs. City is a far greater divide than Northern Border State vs Gulf Coast State.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 5:03 AM  

@11

"Now, this is going to end in a far more explicit Empire, but it also probably means a few major cities get burned to the ground for their insolence. We'll see."

Well, one thing's for sure.
Nobody can burn down Detroit.

The current squatter-population did that already.

Blogger dtbb July 30, 2018 5:04 AM  

All these civil war scenarios leave out one detail. Do you think the rest of the world is going to just sit back and watch ? What sbout all our nukes? I think the rest of the world would be very interested in the proceedings and probably take some sort of action.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 5:06 AM  

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Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 5:08 AM  

@12

"it was Nikki Halley, a daughter of immigrants, who as governor of SC who presided over removing the confederate flag from the state house grounds. She thinks she is a viable contender for US president some day, but I predict that she destroyed any chance of that by that action."

If she has no qualms with pissing on the native population of her own state, she'll DEFINITELY have no qualms with doing the same to mine.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 5:12 AM  

@14

> "What the f*** is a wicket?". "What do you mean a match takes more than a day to play?". "Why no gloves?". "How is this so popular, yet more boring that golf?".

> I've tried. Real trick is to get Americans playing Aussie Rules Football. It'd be huge. And highly lethal.


In college, I used to watch Aussie football at 3:00 AM in my dorm room. Good stuff. With a decent level of exposure, I think most NFL fans could make the switch quite easily, as long as there's no kneelers trying to make a sports event into a political diatribe.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 5:28 AM  

@19

"Vox, what kind of economic disaster do you see occurring? Federal Reserve going bankrupt?"

It is literally impossible for the institution which creates money out of thin air to go bankrupt, especially when ALL of the money in circulation first has to be borrowed (AT INTEREST) by the Fed Gov.

Now, the FedGov being forced to declare bankruptcy -- THAT is a possibility. A very, VERY real possibility, if the Federal Reserve (i.e. foreigner-owned 'national bank') is not destroyed first and replaced with system based on gold certificates, silver certificates, and non-debased coinage.

Of course, this will result in either a massive nominal monetary contraction (best done by shifting the decimal point left 1 digit, for all accounts and prices, just as Russia shifted everything 3 digits -- a pre-1998 5,000 ruble note has the same size, coloration, and imagery as a post-1998 5 ruble note. -- that sort of transition won't work in America... we WANT Washington on the $1, Jackson on the $20, and Franklin on the $100. But give the people Silver Certificates, and they'll gladly trade in $100 of fiat currency for $10 of real currency -- for the simple reason that within weeks, every store will credit every $100 in fiat as only $9.50 towards paying the bill. Coinage will be more difficult -- but real coinage, using silver, nickel, and copper again feels different from the debased coinage. OLD copper pennies might survive at face value. The current red-bronze-plated zinc pennies will be rejected for being the garbage that they are.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 30, 2018 6:22 AM  

@25

"Much sympathy to the Russians. It will cause major headaches. They won't convert to Orthodox Christianity and they won't integrate."

The Boers are talking about moving to southern russia... which is where the Moslem problem is. Differences will be overlooked as they focus on the common enemy -- violent Moslems.

Also, There are protestant churches in Russia. On my last visit in St. Petersburg, a guy I met there (he's a widower, so often eats dinner at the restaurant in the hotel I was staying in) took me to a Baptist church where he is a member. Also took me to his wife's gravesite -- she died of cancer in her 30's.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 30, 2018 8:32 AM  

Dirk Manly wrote:The Boers are talking about moving to southern russia... which is where the Moslem problem is. Differences will be overlooked as they focus on the common enemy -- violent Moslems.

This is a good start. If the Russians are smart, they will draft the men into the army, then keep them in the reserves, then send the reserve units on frequent cross-border punitive raids into the 'stans. Keep them fighting, keep life hard, keep them face to face with the hatred of the mohammedans for us. It forces them to learn Russian, too.

Blogger VD July 30, 2018 8:45 AM  

Home, to all of us, isn't the South, or the North, or the Mountain States, or Appalachia. Home is The United States. All of them.

Then you have no home. You are a rootless, denationalized individual and have neither family nor community close enough to defend you.

Blogger Matthew McDaniel July 30, 2018 10:53 AM  

Just dropped into the comments bc I heard the whisperings of a ginger revolution. Please send email with details.

Blogger Seth July 30, 2018 3:22 PM  

Voxday's point has been a hard one to shallow but it does make more sense.

I guess the main point white nationalist's have is that there is a level of genetic "hardware compatibility". Minority groups can exist in a nation if they reach a relatedness threshold and sometimes get absorbed or stay stable with equal number breeding with the majority group. Even Japan has the Ainu people.

Otherwise when do cultural differences between two cities in Japan turn it into two nations?

Blogger Groffin July 30, 2018 7:56 PM  

And what would that be?

Blogger Roddie Piper July 30, 2018 10:57 PM  

"Few outside the Balkans can tell the difference between a Croat and a Serb, but that did not prevent them from fighting a war in the 1990s"

No, but the threat of becoming another province of the Soviet Empire prevented them from fighting a war *until* the 1990s.

"Between 1790 and 1965, they were mostly spreading out across a mostly empty continent"

That explains why the words "killed by Indians" appear so often in my genealogy. Despite much diversity within each side, whites were better than Indians at uniting against a common foe.

There will of course be another civil war, and white leftists will either die at the hands of their beloved diversity, give up and join the right, or invent a new leftist ideology that doesn't espouse racial equality. As with the Indian wars, non-whites will not be viewed sympathetically until they have been totally defeated and all their depredations have passed out of living memory.

Blogger Vanilla I C E July 31, 2018 11:48 AM  

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Blogger Rhys August 01, 2018 6:12 AM  

There is a lot to be said about state identity, or at least regional. I think it's probably true that even this isn't strong enough to break down into any real nation, but there is a large amount of animosity/amicability between certain states. Someone mentioned earlier the "invasion" of Californians. This is something I have seen in almost all Red states, and is especially strong in Arizona where I live. I would register for an all-out war on Califronia without a second thought.

Blogger Alphaeus August 01, 2018 9:15 AM  

"Someone mentioned earlier the "invasion" of Californians. This is something I have seen in almost all Red states, and is especially strong in Arizona where I live. I would register for an all-out war on Califronia without a second thought"

If you attack with 4 columns, you can rely on a 5th Column here to assist you.

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