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Thursday, August 30, 2018

Darkstream: concern trolls



From the transcript of the Darkstream:

What I realized is that the problem with the concern troll, and the reason that concern trolling should not be tolerated even among those who are friendly, even among people who are on your side, is that a concern troll is always perfectly happy to trade someone else's demoralization for his own narcissistic rush. He's putting his own narcissism ahead of the way that other people feel, it's actually a very,  very negative trait and it's kind of related to the pessimists who invariably predict failure and really seem to get off on explaining why nothing's going to change, why no one's ever going to win, why no matter what you do it's going to fail or it's not going to make any difference anyway.

This is something that I no longer permit on the blog, in fact, I learned to stop permitting it during the  2016 campaign, and I think the Lord Humungus is correct when he said they're emotionally hedging. But here's the problem. There's nothing wrong with emotionally hedging on your own behalf,  there's nothing wrong with protecting your own feelings because you have been disappointed before, but where it starts to become a problem, where it starts to become a negative action, is when in the interests of your own emotional hedging you actually attack the optimism and the hope of your own allies. I mean, think about it. Suppose that leading up to D-Day, Montgomery and other generals kept telling Eisenhower "oh you know this landing, it's never gonna work, you know, look what look what happened at Anzio, look what happened when the Germans attacked Crete, it's all gonna be a disaster, we shouldn't do this."

Now what good, from the Allied perspective, is going to come of that? These people don't actually know what's going to happen. If we listened to all of the pessimists who were talking about Trump, he never would have won, he never would have pulled off the victory, and he probably wouldn't have even won the Republican nomination. It wasn't just people who were against Trump who were making these predictions, it was people who said, "oh yeah, well, you know, Trump's the only one who could possibly be any good,  but he can never win, he can never beat 30 percent, he can't beat 35 percent, he can't win the nomination, he can't win the general election.

What I would suggest you do if you're tempted to concern troll, if you're tempted to share your pessimism, or your lack of hope, or your despair or whatever, don't share it. Keep it to yourself. I can't tell you how many times concern trolls have told me stuff that they've been completely wrong about. I mean, these concern trolls who say this stuff so they can say "I told you so," well, they've been wrong far more often than they're right.

40 comments:

  1. Exactly.

    Pessimist: plans for things going badly.

    Concern troll: plans to tell you "I told you so" if things go badly.

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  2. The concern troll I hate is the one who tries to get everyone to settle down and not get "carried away" reacting to the enemy. Theyre worried an actual conflict might take place. No matter how evil the actions of the enemy, effective reaction is always more evil.

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  3. Yes. It is better to be a pollyanna, and I practice that philosophy by choice. There are many things that are true, far more than our mortal minds can pay attention to at any one time; and if we do not choose where to place our attention, then our fallen instincts will choose for us. But this is an old wisdom:

    "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

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  4. VFM #424 here--MacArthur put it well, "Never hold councils of war; they breed timidity and defeatism."

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  5. It's easier to be a critic than a participant. It puts a thin veneer over your cowardice and laziness.

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  6. It's hard to create the future if you don't believe in it...

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  7. @2 The concern troll I hate is the one who tries to get everyone to settle down and not get "carried away" reacting to the enemy. Theyre worried an actual conflict might take place. No matter how evil the actions of the enemy, effective reaction is always more evil.

    Most common. The great John Von Neumann left Germany immediately after he saw Hitler would be Chancellor. He tried to persuade his large family to do likewise...They scoffed, said he was over reacting, etc. and never left....

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  8. I always thought concern trolling was telling people to moderate their message in some way. That if you say x, people will not listen to you.

    "I really think you should remove the "Alt" from Alt*Hero. Alt has now been associated with the Alt-Right and so normies will think this is an Alt-Right comic book. You shouldn't put the Confederate Flag in there because people could complain to Amazon and they have banned it from their store. etc etc etc"

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  9. I actually appreciated being told to shut about my concerns. I never considered myself to troll, but I naturally am a worrier, who leaps to some bad places with my thoughts and ideation.

    Working towards being a happy warrior is much more rewarding.

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  10. About that alt*Hero Q thing;

    I admit to being slightly concerned it might only reach 948% ...

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  11. On self-sabotage by people who want work: I think that the generative drive is so strong in men, so core to male identity -- actually a usefulness need for us "human doings" (as Warren Farrell calls men) -- that an extended period of non-productivity is very, very damaging to men.

    In the recessions of the 21st century, where entire industries maintained a lower headcount for years, there have been controversies over companies discriminating against the long-term unemployed, even to the point of preferring to leave a position unfilled. Of course that seems unfair, and I seem to remember the Oregon legislature making it a condition of something or other that companies couldn't do that, because of course the state wants them off of unemployment benefits, and when they no longer qualify for that the state wants them off of food stamps and Medicaid and whatever.

    But one thing that companies have said in their defense which struck me is that they have a good reason, it isn't just because (as alleged) of a perception that the unwanted are losers. They say that they've had bad experiences with long-term unemployed basically being so neurotic that they're dysfunctional and make their team/department dysfunctional, and they just don't want to take the risk. (Of course, even if true, it is not mutually exclusive of irrational prejudice.)

    I want to say that after being out of work for over six months, it can take as long with steady work for a man to recover his psychological equilibrium, but I don't know where I heard that; anyway, it's my personal experience. And I think that volunteering is a good way out of that catch-22 (again from personal experience).

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  12. "Working towards being a happy warrior is much more rewarding."

    The happy warrior is the one covered in the blood of his enemies.

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  13. VD mentioned the 2033 prediction in the stream and I was wondering if anyone had a link to more info on it. I've tried searching here but have only found references to it. It sounds like a fascinating subject and would be helpful in explaining to people why they should be preparing themselves.

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  14. Well, another trait I see a bit of in myself to improve on.

    You're work, Mr. Vox Day.

    But it's why I like this place.
    Even the silvered skulls have grown on me.

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  15. @2, There was a good example of that in the comments on ESR's post about that Lerna project yesterday. One guy wrote a few paragraphs to say it wasn't that big a deal because it's not an important project, so why get worked up about it? He was very concerned that no one waste too much time or energy getting upset and, you know, doing anything about it.

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  16. "Moriarty, enough with the negative waves!"

    1 Cor 13 again: faith, hope, and love to counter thoughts of despair. Love means hammering trolls, so they reconsider wallowing in despair. Squeeze despair's pair hard enough and it will squeak "uncle."

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  17. > He's putting his own narcissism ahead of the way that other people feel, it's actually a very, very negative trait

    Well the whole point of narcissism isn't to put yourself above others, it's to screw them so they're more miserable than you! I'm sure the concern trolls really get off when they manage to suck motivation and optimism out of someone, and make them despair...

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  18. @solaire you won't find much beyond such mentions. It is Vox's estimate of the breakup/economic collapse of the US based on the historical length of time monetary systems tend to survive.

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  19. Misery loves company but so does happiness. A demoralizing troll can be transformed into an enthusiasm troll.

    There are those however who are not on our side and engage in concern trolling. Usually they can be identified by their phrasing: "I'm a long time listener but lately I noticed a change in you". They sell themselves as a fan and appeal to the authority of some prior version of your self.

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  20. Fear of failure and fear of being hurt is the first to y step one takes towards Gamma.

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  21. "ALT HERO: Q" IS NOW FULLY FUNDED!

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  22. @11

    "I actually appreciated being told to shut about my concerns. I never considered myself to troll, but I naturally am a worrier, who leaps to some bad places with my thoughts and ideation.

    Working towards being a happy warrior is much more rewarding."

    A friend who is a Vietnam Vet (sniper with SF) and is also a hypnotherapist told me something very useful:

    "Fear is your subconscious telling you to PAY ATTENTION."

    Fear does not mean freak-out and run away. Minimize the danger (but only if it's significant) and then COMPLETE YOUR MISSION.

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  23. @18

    > ""Moriarty, enough with the negative waves!"

    Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

    Moriarty: Crap!


    Big Joe: ...There's no booze, there's no broads, there's no action!

    Captain Maitland: That's another thing - don't fool around with the women. Their husbands carry guns. And don't forget, the penalty for looting is death.
    Big Joe: Loot what? There's nothing here to loot!
    Captain Maitland: [hops in jeep and drives off hauling a 30-foot sailboat on a trailer.]

    One of the best movies ever.

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    Replies
    1. Dirk,

      One of my favorites for story, archtypes; hell, it's fun with some great, coarse humor. Of COURSE a group of GIs would pull a trick like this, if opportunity was there.

      Oddball: "That's about 64 MILLION marks."

      Kelly: "And all you have to do for an equal share, is turn the turret and blow that door..
      "

      Heidelberg Boy: Ponders

      PzKw VI: (whirr) WHOOSH!!!!

      All rhetoric and legend. I laugh at the experts who tried to nitpick with dialectic. I'd rather laugh at 1SG tales (and heard a bunch), than whine about something. Laughter is better

      Delete
  24. Does anyone know what has motivated these posts regarding concern trolls? comments about the comic campaign? I think Arkhaven is going to make out like bandits on this deal. I hope they bring back a conan, kull-like character, the more bloody, the better.

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  25. @22: Fear of being outshined is a powerful impulse too. Remember that pedocomics guy who spaz-posted against Alt Hero during the first fundraiser?!

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  26. Something tells me pedocomic guy is a pedo-victim, or his sister was, and that strip was his way of trying to "speak for" pedo victims. Still creepy, though.

    [I don't think he's a pedo, or his script would have been all about justifying the pedo's actions. You know, because all pedo's think they're some unreasonably repressed victim group.]

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  27. Q has divided several of the forums I participate in. There are the Q believers, who interpret everything in accordance with their interpretation of Q. And their are the Q atheists, who maintain it's all just a LARP and the the Q faithful have been duped. People who haven't committed to one or the other camps are viewed as concern trolls.

    The less horrible media, for instance, is reporting that Sessions will likely be fired after the midterms. This fits in broadly with what Trump's tweets of the last week seem to imply.

    The Q interpretation is that this is all an act between Trump and Sessions. (I don't quite understand WHY they would need to act this way, to fool who?? because???)

    Asking these questions is "concern trolling" I guess, but eventually you have two isolated true believing groups and a bunch of undecideds not welcome anywhere.

    The good news is that by this time next year we will know for sure one way or the other.

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  28. Vlad Z. wrote:The Q interpretation is that this is all an act between Trump and Sessions. (I don't quite understand WHY they would need to act this way, to fool who?? because???)

    I've been wondering that too. Presumably the Derp Staters know that there is serious stuff coming (assuming that is the case), so there is no need to fool them. Presumably Trump isn't trying to fool his base - we're baying for blood. Trump is probably trying to fool the idiot Left, and trying to keep the Fake News media spun up.

    If Trump judges it best to delay actual overt action against America's enemies, pretending Sessions is sitting on his worthless ass keeps the idiot Left occupied with fever dreams of impeachment.

    We should trust Trump. We elected him for 4 years with an option for 4 more, and so far he's delivered more than any of us expected. Partly that's because we didn't expect much, and would have been content with just watching everything burn.

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  29. The less horrible media, for instance, is reporting that Sessions will likely be fired after the midterms.

    I've lost count of how many times they've breathlessly predicted that Sessions was about to be fired. Remember that time last year that Trump said some mean things about Sessions, and Sessions did an interview where he said it kinda hurt his feelings? I think he was in South America at the time for some reason, and it was important enough to interview him there about it because he was hours away from a pink slip.

    Now, I ask myself: are Jeff Sessions's feelings really hurt that easily? I don't think so, so I'm left with one explanation, and it didn't come from Q, though it sounds like he agrees.

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  30. "Q has divided several of the forums I participate in. There are the Q believers, who interpret everything in accordance with their interpretation of Q. And their are the Q atheists, who maintain it's all just a LARP and the the Q faithful have been duped. People who haven't committed to one or the other camps are viewed as concern trolls. "

    And there are those who think Q is a Clinton machine/Brennan psyop. Q divides the MAGA base (which should be demanding with one voice that Sessions be fired) and keeps pressure off Sessions who by all appearances is compromised worthless and a traitor.

    I hope to God I am wrong about Sessions and Q but I don't think I am. Sessions let Awan skirt, to me that seems the nail in the coffin for the Q narrative.

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  31. Ominous Cowherd wrote:Vlad Z. wrote:The Q interpretation is that this is all an act between Trump and Sessions. (I don't quite understand WHY they would need to act this way, to fool who?? because???)

    I've been wondering that too. Presumably the Derp Staters know that there is serious stuff coming (assuming that is the case), so there is no need to fool them. Presumably Trump isn't trying to fool his base - we're baying for blood. Trump is probably trying to fool the idiot Left, and trying to keep the Fake News media spun up.


    MPAI, and they need their political theater.

    Rhetorically, the conflict between Trump and Sessions makes some Leftists reflexively support him, and once they've made that commitment, they've inside Trump's frame if this is pre-planned.

    If Sessions has been investigating Deep State and will reveal surprising convictions of corrupt Dems, the prior trust in Sessions is going to help some of the Left accept it, leaving less oxygen and useful idiots for anti-Trump #Resistance.

    Recall that Trump got into pro-wrestling, where the fights are all fake and people enjoy watching it anywhere.

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  32. A Concern Troll would rather predict failure and be RIGHT, than predict success and be WRONG.

    A pessimist looks at the world and says, "All things being equal, tomorrow will be just like today." And he's more likely right than wrong. So what? Predicting continuity takes as much courage and effort as predicting the sun will come up in the morning.

    It is only the person who dares to predict tomorrow can be DIFFERENT from today, and then sets in motion actions to make that something DIFFERENT HAPPEN, who ever accomplishes ANYTHING. To do that takes COURAGE. It takes ENERGY. It takes EFFORT.

    Why?

    Because of Newton's First Law of Motion. Everything will continue as it is UNLESS acted upon by an unbalancing force. Pessimists are the perfect human example of this Law. Pessimists can't get out of bed because to change the direction of their miserable lives will require EFFORT, ENERGY, to overcome the inertia of their pessimism.

    AND MIGHT NOT WORK! And there's the CRUNCH!

    Success is not guaranteed. So if they consider making the public EFFORT to change and FAIL, the thought of LOOKING FOOLISH, the thought of being HUMILIATED, chases them back into their heads and drives any chance of self improvement from their minds.

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  33. I'm just an old blue collar worker, but when faced with getting things done, there seemed to be two general types, those who looked for solutions and those who looked for excuses and problems.

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  34. Message received. It’s too easy to be ‘once bitten, twice shy’ pessimistic. It is very negative.

    “cautiously optimistic” is a better mindset.

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  35. I've never really viewed concern trolls as anything other than enemy actors, to be honest.

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  36. And there are those who think Q is a Clinton machine/Brennan psyop. Q divides the MAGA base (which should be demanding with one voice that Sessions be fired) and keeps pressure off Sessions who by all appearances is compromised worthless and a traitor. I hope to God I am wrong about Sessions and Q but I don't think I am.

    How perfectly appropriate on a thread about concern trolls. FFS, stop cucking already. You're more easily frightened than Jordan Peterson after a glass of apple cider.

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