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Monday, September 17, 2018

Linux, converged

Linus Torvalds finally surrenders to the SJWs:
Linux creator Linus Torvalds has apologized for years of rants, swearing, and general hostility directed at other Linux developers, saying he's going to take a temporary break from his role as maintainer of the open source kernel to learn how to behave better.

For many years, Torvalds has been infamous for his expletive-filled, aggressive outbursts on the Linux Kernel Mailing List (LKML), chewing out developers who submit patches that he believes aren't up to the standards necessary for the kernel. He's defended this behavior in the face of pushback from other developers, insisting that people being nice to one another was an American ideology.

But that may be coming to an end. In a lengthy email posted to the LKML on Sunday night, Torvalds expressed a change of heart. Taken to task over attacks that he recognizes were "unprofessional and uncalled for," he says he now recognizes that his behavior was "not OK" and he is "truly sorry." He's going to step back from kernel development for a while—something he's done before while developing the Git source control system—so that he can "get help on how to behave differently."

It's not entirely clear what precipitated this change, though Torvalds did mention a little of the backstory. The Linux Maintainer Summit, an invitation-only gathering of around 30 core Linux developers, takes place each year to provide a venue for kernel maintainers to discuss issues around the kernel's development process. This year's summit was due to be in Vancouver but was moved earlier this month to Edinburgh after it turned out that Torvalds had mistakenly booked a vacation in Scotland that clashed with the Vancouver event.

This situation presented two options: stay in Vancouver without Torvalds or move to Edinburgh with Torvalds. Torvalds himself preferred the first option, but this idea was met with resistance, suggesting that Torvalds' behavior, which is known to have driven some developers away from kernel development entirely, was one of the issues that the maintainers wanted to discuss. Accordingly, the decision was made to move to Edinburgh to fit in with his vacation. That such a disruptive change of venue should occur indicates there's considerable strength of feeling about Torvalds' presence.

Simultaneously with this, the Linux project now has a code of conduct. Previously, the project had a "code of conflict": a short document that asserts that the code quality is the only thing that matters and implores developers to "be excellent to each other." The new code of conduct is more extensive and sets explicit standards for behavior, requiring it to be positive, professional, welcoming, and inclusive.
So much for Linux, then. If I didn't already have my hands full, I'd fork the damn thing myself.

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124 Comments:

Blogger camcleat September 17, 2018 1:06 PM  

Goodbye, Linux. You had a GREAT run. Without Linus at the helm maintaining very strict control of the kernel, Linux is toast.

What a waste and what a shame. Linux kernel development has been one of the last hold-out meritocracies by necessity. Now?

Think of a world where Windows is once again the best we can hope for in an OS. Not pleasant.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 17, 2018 1:07 PM  

Haven't one of the tech demigods around here already done that, or have the ability to do so?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 17, 2018 1:08 PM  

Codes of conduct are tools used by the incompetent to wrest control away from the people who own the project, so they can feed on the corpse and wear the skin of the project as a fetish play

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 17, 2018 1:09 PM  

They are competent at one thing, at least.

Sucking.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 17, 2018 1:11 PM  

camcleat wrote:Think of a world where Windows is once again the best we can hope for in an OS. Not pleasant.
Linux WILL fork. It already has several times. But those were mostly vanity or butthurt plays. Linus' iron fist was sufficient to keep the mainline the best available option.
Now, if Linus really does step back or even gets removed from the project, it will stagnate and someone who has been kicked off the project will fork it.

In the meantime, there's still OpenBSD.

Blogger camcleat September 17, 2018 1:11 PM  

@2, Animal Mother:

My take is that forking projects is one thing, forking the kernel is a whole other kettle of fish.

Linus has been, for nearly three decades, THE kernel dev. It's his baby, and he's maintained dictator like control over it for the most part AND hammered hard for the design philosophy that the integrity of the code comes first.

There are very few true kernel developers that CAN maintain it, much less fork it and take over true development from this point forward. Even fewer of that subset of coders has the integrity to not screw it up royally for a variety of converged reasons.

Blogger Shimshon September 17, 2018 1:12 PM  

Coming soon: LinuxGate.

There's no way the CoC doesn't get abused by SJWs now. The Linux kernel is the mother lode of convergence opportunity.

Blogger Crew September 17, 2018 1:12 PM  

And, of course, the number of competent female kernel developers will not increase.

Blogger Shimshon September 17, 2018 1:14 PM  

Did something...trigger (did I just use that word?!) Linus? Did someone kill themselves because he was rude? Why now? He is Finnish. Does Markku have any insight?

Blogger Hammerli 280 September 17, 2018 1:14 PM  

I do like the idea of a "Code of Conflict", though. Governor John Wilson's works quite well.

(For those of you not familiar, John Lyle Wilson wrote "The Code of Conduct for Principals and Seconds in Duelling".)

Blogger camcleat September 17, 2018 1:17 PM  

@5 Snidely Whiplash

"Linux WILL fork. It already has several times. But those were mostly vanity or butthurt plays. "

True and fair enough.

Aside from whatever technical prowess he has, I always viewed Linus as the glue holding the kernel devs' focus together.

It will be interesting to see if it does fork if the lead has that leadership ability. Herding cats and dealing with the personality quirks of a 1000 spergy kernel coders can't be easy.

Blogger Crew September 17, 2018 1:18 PM  

In the meantime, there's still OpenBSD.

Dude. Dragonfly BSD! https://infogalactic.com/info/DragonFly_BSD

Have you seen my bike shed?

Blogger Shimshon September 17, 2018 1:19 PM  

Linus is undoubtedly abrasive. It is open and documented. You could even say he much more so than necessary. I daresay the only difference between him and other people in similar positions is that their abrasiveness is behind closed doors and only whispered about. Steve Jobs, anyone? Bill Gates?

Blogger CarpeOro September 17, 2018 1:19 PM  

Now for a kinder, gentler version of Linux. Where all of the triggering words and phrases are re-written, causing it to perform worse than Windows with frequent crashes and run away threads.

That Redhat 5.1 box I have to support suddenly looks a bit better... though no vendor supports it any more.

Blogger Jeremiah Alphonsus September 17, 2018 1:19 PM  

Speaking of madness, did you know that Jordan Peterson has his own "church"? See:

Jordan Peterson's Church of St Joachim of Fiore: Dr Peterson and Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bg0Q9oEg1E&frags=pl%2Cwn

Blogger Unknownsailor September 17, 2018 1:20 PM  

The comments to that Arstechnica article make my dear departed great grandfather's teeth hurt, much less my own. Five years from now, as they survey the wreckage that has become the Linux kernel development community, they are going to all be asking what happened...

As a long time poster there up until recently, the stupid just got too blatant to put up with any more...

Blogger Daniel Hammarberg September 17, 2018 1:23 PM  

A great pity. In this day and age of cowardice and incompetence, he was a beacon of hope. Hope someone else steps up and picks up the torch now and leads the developer movement, in the same manner Torvalds did.

Blogger Max Boivin September 17, 2018 1:27 PM  

I think Linus is looking for an out. Him booking a vacation in Scotland was no mistake. He wants the community to pick someone to replace him and stop relying on him.

Unfortunately, there are a bunch of SJWs waiting in the wing. Once Linus will step down, they'll take over.

The good thing is that being open-source, they won't be able to completely destroy it and make it shit; there would always be at least one distro that will be acceptable.

That being said, we need to end that culture war as soon as possible. And I'm not talking about making peace.

Blogger Shimshon September 17, 2018 1:32 PM  

Just a few days ago, Motherboard published an article about Python retconning references to masters and slaves out of the code.

"The terminology has been a point of contention in the tech community for nearly two decades and now it was just removed from one of the most popular programming languages in the world."

Two decades, eh?

I have an idea. Larry Wall is by all reports one of the nicest people you can ever meet. Now that Linus has thrown in the towel, he remains (I believe) one of the few convergence-resistant BDFL's remaining. Give him double duty and put him in charge of the kernel.

Blogger kurt9 September 17, 2018 1:35 PM  

Perhaps there is a community of developers in either Russia or the greater China area (China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc.) that can continue the development of Linux in an area of the world that is not affected by SJW types (SJW's and PCism seems to be an exclusively Western phenomenon).

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 17, 2018 1:37 PM  

Crew wrote:Dude. Dragonfly BSD!
Dude, I was using OpenBSD commercially 20 years ago. It is still the go-to OS when security is the top concern, and in fact at my current place of employment, we make sure everything works on OpenBSD, just in case. We could re-deploy from CentOS/RedHat to BSD in about a week.

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira September 17, 2018 1:37 PM  

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

What a frickin p*ssy. Scandicucks at it again.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 17, 2018 1:38 PM  

kurt9 wrote:Perhaps there is a community of developers in either Russia or the greater China area...
Will you trust a kernel developed in China?

Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 17, 2018 1:42 PM  

@19 Niceness is a limiting factor for critical leadership positions.

Blogger Matthew McDaniel September 17, 2018 1:47 PM  

Russia invades Finland when?

Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 17, 2018 1:53 PM  

The Navy's newest destroyer USS Zumwalt runs on Linux. I wonder if the Navy, or Raytheon, forked their own kernel. Some of the other branches have been adopting Linux for various systems too.

Blogger InformationMerchant September 17, 2018 1:53 PM  

@19 Python was incredibly easy to converge. The community was soft by design and it's incredibly easy to learn and use.

Ease of use has become a bad thing. The languages people used to design purely to be needlessly difficult are looking like good ideas now. It's so disappointing that society has come to this.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 1:54 PM  

I thought this had to be a joke at first. I could see him getting fed up and walking away, because it's been a pretty thankless task for a long time. But that stuff about apologizing and getting help doesn't sound like him at all.

Blogger Unknown September 17, 2018 1:57 PM  

It's been going downhill for awhile now.

The meritocracy went out years ago and it's a corpocracy now. Linus knows the hands that feed him. He has no power.

Blogger Jack Ward September 17, 2018 1:58 PM  

OT. Call me a turd if it pleases you.
Neonrevolt has posted a 'how to' guide to using 8 chan. At first blush it looks excellent. I shall copy it and print as a ref. Yes. I am newfag over there.

https://www.neonrevolt.com/2018/09/17/8chan-bootcamp-learning-to-chan-like-a-pro-neonrevolt/

Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 17, 2018 1:59 PM  

To give an analogy, Asterisk is an open source PBX system running on Linux. Some years ago a company forked Asterisk, added a bunch of features and sold the PBX system under their brand name.

So the bigger concern is that open source anything will die off from the SJW cancer. Then it is back to overpriced, sometimes under-performing commercial products.

Blogger idprism September 17, 2018 2:07 PM  

Even if he was looking for a way out of the public spotlight, I still wish we could get him copies of SJWAL and SJWADD, so he knows what they just did. It might light a fire under him as some kind of retired activist if not a coder.

Blogger FrankNorman September 17, 2018 2:09 PM  

I'm wondering if Torvalds hasn't been threatened, behind the scenes. Not by SJW's, but by Deep State types, who want to put their own back-doors into the system.
But to do that they need to be able to count on the loyalty of the people set to do it.
The snowflakes with their hurt feeelings are either useful idiots, or actors.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 2:12 PM  

His final message should have been, "I am leaving it as I found it. Take over. It's yours." Except that, thanks to the distributed nature of git, his other tremendous contribution, he can't actually destroy what he created.

Blogger Duh-ave September 17, 2018 2:26 PM  

Frank Norman beat me to it. Someone's 'Luca Brasi' made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Blogger pnq87 September 17, 2018 2:27 PM  

Note to self: Kernel 4.18.8 is the last stable unconverged version of Linux

Blogger Ledford Ledford September 17, 2018 2:28 PM  

...insisting that people being nice to one another was an American ideology....he says he now recognizes that his behavior was "not OK" and he is "truly sorry."

As an American, let me say that I am truly sorry about this not OK ideology.

Also, if he were truly sorry he would have said "problematic" instead of "not ok."

Blogger DJ | AMDG September 17, 2018 2:29 PM  

I’ve always been confused by how open source product development remains coherent and stable. For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?

Blogger DJ | AMDG September 17, 2018 2:30 PM  

Call it “alt-nux,” or whatever.

Blogger pyrrhus September 17, 2018 2:36 PM  

O/T The accuser's students at Cal State-Fullerton despised her, and said she had a "dark" personality....https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/09/17/somethings-wrong-with-her-christine-fords-students-savage-her-in-reviews/

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2018 2:39 PM  

@9 Shimshon

He is Finnish. Does Markku have any insight?

Beware the Finnquisition.

Blogger Robert What? September 17, 2018 2:41 PM  

In the modern world "feels" and Diversity trump excellence and achievement. As an aside, this is why so many people believe we never went to the Moon. That's because with our new focus of Diversity Uber Alles we could never go to the Moon today despite vastly greater technology. Many people think that because it would be impossible today that it must have been impossible all those decades ago. Amazing what can be done with a country with a good education system, where excellence and achievement are aspired to, and where the population is 80+ percent White.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 2:43 PM  

@38, nothing stops them. Anyone with the skill and desire to fork Linux can do so. It doesn't happen because even when these projects get converged, they don't usually get around to destroying the product, at least not within a few years. SJWs don't get into the kernel and mess around, because kernel/OS programming is hard. They didn't get involved in open source to do hard work. They hang out in the forums and mailing lists and attack individuals they don't like, driving men away from the project one at a time. The product itself doesn't suddenly go bad, it just fails to develop with the same speed and quality it would have without SJWs mucking things up, which is hard to measure.

Blogger justaguy September 17, 2018 2:49 PM  

The big brother state picks up one more and it didn't even need a rat cage.

Blogger Steve Sky September 17, 2018 2:50 PM  

I wonder how much the systemd convergence has caused Linus to leave, as I agree with @18 who said his choice to go to Scotland was a move to back out. Linus has made other comments about systemd, and given how it has taken over the Linux environment, you could argue it violates the Open Source behaviour. You do it RedHat's way (used to be Microsoft's way) using systemd (used to be Windows), or you don't do it at all. And systemd, like the borg, engulfs more and more functionality that used to be separate OS building blocks.

Because of that, I could see Linus getting tired and deciding to back out with a "take it, it's yours" gesture. And so Linux dies under the Code of Conduct.

Blogger michimartini September 17, 2018 2:57 PM  

This is a frickin disaster. So much for being agnostic.

Blogger Matthew September 17, 2018 3:00 PM  

DJ | AMDG wrote:I’ve always been confused by how open source product development remains coherent and stable. For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?

right-wingers suck at collaborating, let alone colluding

Blogger Crew September 17, 2018 3:05 PM  

Ease of use has become a bad thing. The languages people used to design purely to be needlessly difficult are looking like good ideas now. It's so disappointing that society has come to this.

There is a tension between ease-of-use and productivity because to be productive you need powerful concepts, but powerful concepts are hard for dummies to understand.

In that sense, ease-of-use sounds great for those trying to make programming more accessible (ie, allow dummies to do it) but Python, in reality, is chock full of stuff only high IQ individuals will understand.

Blogger billo September 17, 2018 3:17 PM  

It could be that people get tired of working with an ass. When you are the only game in town, you can get away with treating people like crap. When you are not, it often turns out that good people who can work elsewhere, where they are not treated like crap, will go to those other places. There's no obligation for developers to do open source work on the kernel, and an abrasive and abusive person in charge can make folk wonder why they should bother. I've been there, albeit not with the linux kernel, but in another field. I worked for some time at a place that treated me like crap. Then I was offered a position where they would pay me more and treat me well. I left.

It may be that Linus is losing good people. I don't see where "don't be an ass to the people you work with" is such a converged concept. In most places, it's considered common sense and common decency.

Speaking of convergence, I notice that the only way I can comment here is to sign in with my Google account, which I generally try to avoid using. If one opposes convergence, why force folk to use Google?

Blogger kurt9 September 17, 2018 3:20 PM  

Damelon Brinn wrote:@38, nothing stops them. Anyone with the skill and desire to fork Linux can do so. It doesn't happen because even when these projects get converged, they don't usually get around to destroying the product, at least not within a few years. SJWs don't get into the kernel and mess around, because kernel/OS programming is hard. They didn't get involved in open source to do hard work. They hang out in the forums and mailing lists and attack individuals they don't like, driving men away from the project one at a time. The product itself doesn't suddenly go bad, it just fails to develop with the same speed and quality it would have without SJWs mucking things up, which is hard to measure.

Since all of this development work is done by individuals collaborating on-line (not in person), would not the obvious solution be for the guys wanting to do real work to use girl names for the on-line forums? How would the SJW types know who's a girl and who's a guy?

The other thing is, if the kernal/OS never gets touched by the SJW types it should always stay good. Software improvement will be slower than we like. But we still have an independent OS that is relatively free from the surreptitious on-line monitoring that is likely with Windows and most certainly the case with Android (a Google product). Since companies such as Google, Microsoft, and others are even more infested with SJW's (as the James Damore affair indicated), its likely that their progress will be slow as well. So even with SJW infestation Linux development will not lag behind the proprietary OS's. The only "cost" of the SJW infestation is simply the lower rate of technology innovation in OS's, and of software in general.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 3:21 PM  

@49 billo, You clearly don't know what you're talking about, with regards to Linus or Linux, so you're just repeating things you've heard somewhere. Did you think that wouldn't be obvious?

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira September 17, 2018 3:21 PM  

The girl names is a good point but I don't want them to get the credit.

Blogger Phelps September 17, 2018 3:25 PM  

There is a bigger problem than incompetence to worry about with Linus gone. Remember, he's the one who responded to the question, "has a government ever approached you about coding a backdoor into the kernel?" his response was to say "nooooooo" while shaking his head yes.

Blogger billo September 17, 2018 3:25 PM  

Matthew wrote:DJ | AMDG wrote:I’ve always been confused by how open source product development remains coherent and stable. For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?

right-wingers suck at collaborating, let alone colluding



I think it's more a matter of complexity and time. There are some folk who love low-level development, but most folk don't. The linux kernel has gotten awfully big and complex, and it would be a lot of work by a lot of people, and take a lot of time, to come up to speed on it. The last I saw, there were about 1400 regular contributors and 250 companies working on it. It's not a five-guys-in-the-basement kind of project any more.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 3:26 PM  

@50 kurt9, Do you want to pretend to be a girl, maintaining separate accounts for your female persona, just so you can contribute to a project for no pay? I don't think many men do, especially of the programmer variety. They want to be left alone to code, not made to play games.

Also, the SJWs will just as gladly attack women who offend them, so you'll still have to watch your conduct.

Blogger FrankNorman September 17, 2018 3:33 PM  

Speaking of systemd, there are already Linux distros that do not use it.
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_distributions_without_systemd

Blogger kurt9 September 17, 2018 3:38 PM  

@50

I hear you. I agree it would be a pain in the arse. I just threw it out as a suggestion as a possible way to overcome the problem.

I'm not this kind of software developer. So I've never been on any of these forums. If one limits their discussion in these forums strictly to technical points, on what basis are these SJW's being offended. That's what I'm having trouble with understanding.

In any case, I'm looking at this issue more from the standpoint of having "untainted" tools for use to develop independent platforms. I am certain that the mass market proprietary OS's have loophole or backdoors that allow for eavesdropping by the developers (Google. Microsoft) and/or spy agencies. This is much more significant problem. The issue of various services like DDoS protection software, virtual web host, etc. are much less as there are many competitors in each of these fields. Both Cloudflare and GoDaddy have quite a few competitors. I find it difficult to believe that they all could be political.

Blogger VD September 17, 2018 3:38 PM  

For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?

The same thing that keeps the Infogalactic team so much smaller than our Wikipedia counterparts. Most conservatives would much rather whine about the Left than actually do anything to make a difference.

Blogger Matthew September 17, 2018 3:41 PM  

Some conservatives come here to make helpful comments about how Linus probably deserved it for driving people away.

Blogger James Dixon September 17, 2018 3:47 PM  

> The linux kernel has gotten awfully big and complex,

Because it's a monolithic kernerl trying to be all things to all people. From a purely technical perspective Tanenbaum was correct and a microkernel is the way to go.

Blogger Lance E September 17, 2018 3:49 PM  

>For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?

Same thing that always keeps them from pulling off successful alt-tech projects: narrower talent pool, lack of motivation, and overuse of the word "should".

Blogger jaericho September 17, 2018 3:51 PM  

@16 The Ars forums have been crap for years. Occasionally there is a good article there, but time is too valuable to stick around for the forums.

Blogger James Dixon September 17, 2018 3:53 PM  

> For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?

There probably aren't more than 10K programmers in the world that can operate at Linus' level. We're talking a very small subset of people who are capable of even contributing to such a project, much less running it. And of those that can contribute, why would they go else where to do so? Once that changes, which it looks like it's going to, then maybe.

Blogger David of One September 17, 2018 3:55 PM  

In other convergence or continuing convergence news ... US Olympic Committee ...

"The Olympic Committee last week announced a shake-up atop its board of directors to go along with new CEO Sarah Hirshland.

The new leaders have pledged a new focus that shows outcomes are not measured solely by medals and money."

Obviously, "Just do something!" is the mantra nowadays.

https://gazette.com/news/olympic-leaders-face-demands-for-change-at-colorado-springs-congress/article_25b41316-b841-11e8-b28d-37e6ce912573.html

Blogger James Dixon September 17, 2018 4:08 PM  

> So much for Linux, then. If I didn't already have my hands full, I'd fork the damn thing myself.

The work you're doing is actually more important, Vox.

Slackware will still be usable for several years. There are other open source projects that can be utilized (OpenBSD was already mentioned, Minix could be used as a base, etc.). So this isn't an urgent matter.

Blogger Lovekraft September 17, 2018 4:11 PM  

VD calls it again: Church of England's First Female Bishop wants God to have a vagina because reasons.

https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/09/17/clergy-tells-church-to-stop-referring-god-emphasise-feminine-nature-god/

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 4:26 PM  

If one limits their discussion in these forums strictly to technical points, on what basis are these SJW's being offended.

These are the kind of people who submit bug reports because they found gendered pronouns in code comments. They can always find something to be offended by.

With Linus, they hated that he had high standards and would bluntly criticize bad code. Of course, part of "professional conduct" is the ability to accept criticism of your work by your superiors, even if it isn't nice. So it was actually the whiners who were being unprofessional, not Linus.

Blogger InformationMerchant September 17, 2018 4:30 PM  

@48 An SJW that knows one popular modern language can learn enough to go from no knowledge of Python to being able to write basic stuff in 20 minutes.

That doesn't mean the SJW will be able to utilize machine learning or any of the other really cool stuff in the Python toolkit.

An SJW that knows Python will take more than 20 minutes to even understand the concept that C++ doesn't have garbage collection, let alone be able to write anything.

Out of those two, it's harder for SJWs to fake C++ until they make it. My flippant implication is that taken to its logical conclusion I'm advocating for the use of Malbolge, Brainfuck and the like due to their SJW resistant nature.

Don't get me wrong though. I like Python. If I automate something for myself I use Python. Sadly, Python is the language bigtech is going to use to carry out the EU's will and try to give 2020 to the left. SJWs ruin everything.

Blogger Shimshon September 17, 2018 4:33 PM  

"If one limits their discussion in these forums strictly to technical points, on what basis are these SJW's being offended."

I commented above about how Python recently removed references to slaves and masters. The article even claims it has been a controversy for decades. It's all manufactured outrage, but that doesn't make it any less serious an issue.

Blogger James Pyrich September 17, 2018 4:35 PM  

I attended Lambdaconf in 2016, and signed a "Code of Conduct", with some reservations. I was still willing to tolerate quite a bit of bullshit.

I was able to largely avoid the freaks, but it was still a freakshow.

There was a keynote by a stutterer, which was rather unpleasant. But, of course, this unfortunate person was encouraged to be a public speaker. She was clearly proud to be inflicting herself on a rather large crowd.

And, of course, ya can't complain about it! (Well, without being ejected.)

It's probably not much of a surprise, either, that there really was a dearth of actual technical content in the talks. It was either social justice bullshit, or incredibly esoteric subjects that were almost impossible to apply to anyone doing real work for a living.

I went to a technology conference to learn about technology but all I got was this damn social justice.

Tho some people were triggered by the presence of moldbug, which was funny.

Regardless, I did learn my lesson--never again will I attend such a conference. Maybe it would be worth running an explicitly anti-SJW Con--CCW encouraged.

Blogger The Depolrable Podunk Ken Ramsey September 17, 2018 4:36 PM  

Whenever one of Linus' rants has been brought to my attention, I have regarded them as things of beauty. We have always need more of them, not less. That running flamewar over using C++ for git was fantastic, and Linus was 100% correct. Also his stridency appeared necessary, it appeared justified. In these efforts factions appear with this or that competing vision, and these issues have to be fought out. You need a general like Linus to hammer out the way forward. Much of his lashing out seemed to come from exasperation over constantly having to fight the same issues over and over, and from people who would not take 'No' as an answer.

I have used Linux, Windows, Solaris, OpenBSD and FreeBSD at work. I have to say Linux is my least favorite one, yes even edging out Windows. But that is not the fault of Linus Torvalds. The kernel is the best part of Linux, what drives everybody nuts is everything else. The desktop, in particular. Can you imagine the Linux kernel being managed by the same sort of braintrust that has brought you the abomination known as the Gnome Desktop? Well you may not have imagine that much longer. Such may become the future for the kernel absent Linus.

And increasingly the choices are shrinking for us. Choice in operating systems is being eliminated through internal regulations. Our choice today is Windows, RedHat or CentOS -- and they must be of certain versions and configured in certain ways that pass various tests, with only software obtained through certain repos if you are on a Linux distro. This is the emerging standard in my industry, not just my lab. It's still technically possible to do something like deploy one of the BSDs -- but that's not happening. Way too much effort to get approvals and certifications.

Blogger James Dixon September 17, 2018 4:37 PM  

> Maybe it would be worth running an explicitly anti-SJW Con--CCW encouraged.

Well, you could get ESR to come.

Blogger Nate73 September 17, 2018 4:41 PM  

Any updates on python convergence? I heard the creator stepped in to reject the requested changes about master-slave terminology.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 4:48 PM  

Whenever one of Linus' rants has been brought to my attention, I have regarded them as things of beauty. We have always need more of them, not less.

Yes. One thing that's never acknowledged by the sensitivity masters is: what about the coders who *want* a challenging leader with high standards who calls them out for shoddy work? Their feelings never even come up in the conversation. How many of them will drift away from the Linux kernel project because they're no longer inspired by Linus at the helm?

Blogger James Dixon September 17, 2018 4:52 PM  

> How many of them will drift away from the Linux kernel project because they're no longer inspired by Linus at the helm?

Eventually, most of them. But it will take time and the replacements will still be capable of maintaining things for a while after that. Like I said in an earlier thread, give it five years or so.

Blogger camcleat September 17, 2018 5:05 PM  

"Eventually, most of them. But it will take time and the replacements will still be capable of maintaining things for a while after that. Like I said in an earlier thread, give it five years or so."


The question merits asking: are those that are capable of developing the kernel a one-to-one overlap with those that want, and whose feelings can take, the "hard general" that keeps them in line?

In other words, are there really replacements for kernel programming if the project turns into "all muh feelings, all the time"?

I'm not so sure there are. Oversensitivity does not correlate well with true technical competence in other observable contexts.

Blogger Crew September 17, 2018 5:10 PM  

Linux will likely fragment even more now.

There are already different distros, and I don't think the Linux foundation will be have to hold it together now that they have gone down the road of making it more friendly in the hope that idiots will be able to contribute.

Blogger tz September 17, 2018 5:11 PM  

Tt would be so inconveinient to move away from YouTube or other Google property so the leaders stay captive to the same converging in progress sites.

Ironically Chuck Baldwin condemned Google and Facebook, but posts his sermons and comments on... YouTube and Facebook!

I can't even convince people to stop Google's revenue stream with an Ad-Blocker that would improve their experience.

The Biblical command is "Come out from among them". No one will do so in Cyberspace if it is the least inconvenient to do so. Then they complain that everyone won't do anything to help change things.

Beyond that, there is still the entitlement mentality that the right should get things done by volunteers for free because "it is the right thing to do" instead of scriptural "The workman is worth his wage". My ability is for sale, but I'm not going to do things for free - one of my colleagues would even offer to donate every dollar back to the church but still insist on being paid for a performance or activity.

How is the right demanding a free lunch of volunteers for "the good" that different from socialists, except the explicit threat of violence?

Use Google. Use GitHub. Use YouTube. Use Facebook. Use Twitter. But don't complain that people don't shift to better platforms that you yourself has not moved to.

Blogger Chippewa September 17, 2018 5:46 PM  

I'd love to see these purple haired freaks try this with Theo de Raadt/OpenBSD.

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2018 5:58 PM  

This is Linus' version of a warrant canary. Willing to put money on it. Linux is compromised.

Blogger kurt9 September 17, 2018 6:13 PM  

These are the kind of people who submit bug reports because they found gendered pronouns in code comments. They can always find something to be offended by.

With Linus, they hated that he had high standards and would bluntly criticize bad code. Of course, part of "professional conduct" is the ability to accept criticism of your work by your superiors, even if it isn't nice. So it was actually the whiners who were being unprofessional, not Linus.


Good lord! Now I understand what the problem is. I agree that it is impossible to accomplish anything with people like that.

Blogger DJT September 17, 2018 6:14 PM  

You can call him a lot of things, but at least Steve Jobs wasn't as big of a fag pussy as this guy.

Blogger weka September 17, 2018 6:20 PM  

Ok... So
1.do not panoc. Lxde and or cinnamon on top of fedora still work.
2. experiment with a BSD.
If it is stable and can do what I need it to... Move over.

Blogger weka September 17, 2018 6:21 PM  

MacOS, however is becoming less usable. Windows is now better, and Steve Jobs would be hitting five expmeteives a second if he was reviewing their work.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 17, 2018 6:35 PM  

weka wrote:experiment with a BSD.

If it is stable and can do what I need it to... Move over.

BSD is far more stable than Linux.

Blogger tz September 17, 2018 6:35 PM  

to extend @78, I can think of no biblical parallel passage but can only go east to "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

When the right is tired of compromise and living in Laodeceia, or staying in Sodom, and are really, really ready to leave, God will provide an alternative. It is Chicken and egg, but it is valid to pray to God for a deliverer. But then you have to accept deliverance.

One criticism I have of Chuck Baldwin is he won't accept Trump as an answer to prayer, as if it is not rebellion (see the Israelites not instantly transported to Caanan in Exodus) to murmur and complain against God because you don't like the person, method, or speed of his deliverance.

All that will result in is 40 years of wandering in the desert eating manna while complaining about it.

Blogger tz September 17, 2018 6:37 PM  

I think experimenting with IEDs would be more productive at this point than BSD.

The SJWs do tend to congregate...

Blogger Nate73 September 17, 2018 6:45 PM  

I googled a bit for bsd, apparently FreeBSD already has a CoC but OpenBSD doesn't, and has a person similarly direct as Linus in charge of it.

Blogger ThatWouldBeTelling September 17, 2018 6:48 PM  

@87 tz:

I take it you've never heard of Theo de Raadt, the BDLF of OpenBSD? According to that Wikipedia link Linus described him as "difficult". Let's just say that he has even stricter technical and documentation standards for OpenBSD than Linus did, and isn't under a fraction of the pressure that we at best assume broke Linus.

Blogger RandyB September 17, 2018 7:13 PM  

I'd pay money to watch that.

Blogger James Dixon September 17, 2018 7:17 PM  

> In other words, are there really replacements for kernel programming if the project turns into "all muh feelings, all the time"?

No, there aren't. These people only care about the code. They have to only care about the code to be competent.

> BSD is far more stable than Linux.

Well, to be fair, we're talking something like 8 9's versus 6 9's. Most people will never notice a difference. Though it's possible systemd has already broken that.

Blogger DraveckysHumerus September 17, 2018 7:30 PM  

Yom Kippur starts tomorrow. Why are dissident right not going to be outside synagogues "protesting" the terrible wrongs committed by (((them))) and, incidently, disrupting the practice and rewards of (((their))) event? Wny are we not demanding a debt jubilee which, if actually implemented, would weaken (((them)))? Instead today we're focused defensively on what is likely to remain for several years an extremely useful, relatively independent OS paradigm? And then we complain nothing advances our direction.

Blogger Damelon Brinn September 17, 2018 7:32 PM  

OpenBSD is probably the most SJW-proof, as long as Theo isn't replaced by a pod person as it sounds like Linus was.

FreeBSD got a CoC about three years ago, and the SJWs set about eliminating a few developers they hated. They got so carried away with their power that they caused a backlash and the core dev group exiled Randi Harper, so that was a plus. Her biggest acolyte remains, though. As a user, I would say the OS is still solid and continues to improve, but could be improving faster without the interference. As I said, SJWs don't write code, they create drama around the project which makes it harder for others to write code. As we've seen in gaming and other fields, contributors are getting sick of it, but it takes time. Moderates are very attached to the idea that both sides are bad and a CoC can keep things fair. The SJWs really have to push them hard to wake them up, and the ones who have survived have learned to be more subtle.

Blogger VD September 17, 2018 8:02 PM  

Why are dissident right not going to be outside synagogues "protesting" the terrible wrongs committed by (((them))) and, incidently, disrupting the practice and rewards of (((their))) event?

Because we didn't know it was Yom whatever and we don't care. Are you going to be outside a synagogue protesting something? If not, then you have your answer.

Stop whining about what you think other people should do and just do it yourself instead.

Blogger Unknown September 17, 2018 8:04 PM  

talking to Linus here, but if someone doesn't shut the fuck up, why would you beat yourself up about telling them to shut the fuck up? and follow the rules?

it would piss me off, too. here's a popular thread:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75

does anyone else agree? i wrote code for a living, and i can see a lot of myself in Linus. i have a small amount of patience for people who keep making the same idiot mistakes.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 17, 2018 8:13 PM  

InformationMerchant wrote:Out of those two, it's harder for SJWs to fake C++ until they make it. My flippant implication is that taken to its logical conclusion I'm advocating for the use of Malbolge, Brainfuck and the like due to their SJW resistant nature.

I think assembler would be adequate. Machine language in extremis.

Blogger Nihil Dicit September 17, 2018 8:41 PM  

Word on the (Twitter) street is that Linus' daughter is taking a bigger role in things at Daddy's work.

https://opensource.com/life/15/8/patricia-torvalds-interview

Blogger Crew September 17, 2018 8:54 PM  

Now is the time to start porting applications to FreeBSD.

Make sure it has all the open source applications Linux has.

Blogger camcleat September 17, 2018 8:59 PM  

"I think assembler would be adequate. Machine language in extremis."

Okay, that's just mean. Last time I programmed anything in Machine Language, it was on a Z-80. It was not anything useful except to demonstrate to someone how fast the chip could execute code when it was not bogged down by a BASIC Interpreter.

But yeah; was telling my teen age son recently that Assembly Language and C programmers would come into demand again at some point.

There's only so much that can be done with no more intelligence than what it takes to string canned library calls together. The kernel devs are not your average C# "programmer."

Blogger camcleat September 17, 2018 9:01 PM  

"Now is the time to start porting applications to FreeBSD.

Make sure it has all the open source applications Linux has."

Just about anything worth having on Linux should already be compilable at least on OpenBSD, right?

Blogger Vaughan Williams September 17, 2018 9:08 PM  

A warning about OpenBSD: 3 years ago, yes, FreeBSD got a CoC. But at that same time, suddenly one of the key (possibly more than one) OpenBSD developers who had strict Libertarian ANYONE can use our stuff beliefs, had to suddenly leave the project. And now I notice, no public outbursts from Theo de Raadt. OpenBSD is not converged, but they are weary. They were deplatformed and starved of funding for many years. Now that they have the OpenBSD Foundation they are doing better, but if the Linux Foundation pressured Linus, the OpenBSD Foundation may eventually pressure Theo. It may have already. The hardcore coders were tired of starving.

If people think Linus is abrasive, in the early days of Linux, the BSD guys mocked them. Heck, the BSD people were known to have bulldozers come over to each others houses and turn them into parking lots. Abrasive? The BSD guys compared the Linux guys to "little butterflies".

Blogger rycamor September 17, 2018 10:20 PM  

FreeBSD has been my favorite for 18 years. It will weather the SJW storm, because enough BSD developers are older dudes who don't have time for SJW crap.

Also, the BSD license makes it far easier to fork, without having to do obeisance to Richard Stallman's "Copyleft."

Blogger The Observer September 17, 2018 11:05 PM  

The reason might have been Daddy dearest giving into his little princess' demands:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnT0eFiWwAMmL1A.jpg

Yes, I know the article's from 2015, but still. It's a plausible explanation.

Blogger Harambe September 18, 2018 4:30 AM  

camcleat wrote:
There's only so much that can be done with no more intelligence than what it takes to string canned library calls together. The kernel devs are not your average C# "programmer."


I was gonna say FUCK YOU, but I make too much money.

Blogger McChuck September 18, 2018 7:53 AM  

There is no Linux, only Zuul.

Blogger McChuck September 18, 2018 7:58 AM  

@96 Ominous Cowherd said"I think assembler would be adequate. Machine language in extremis."

Forth is where it's at.

Blogger Rickaby007 September 18, 2018 8:38 AM  

Shame. Linux is a work of pure genius.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:29 AM  

@16

"As a long time poster there up until recently, the stupid just got too blatant to put up with any more..."

Wow. The last time I even LOOKED at Ars Technica was when GamerGate discovered that the founder of the GamesJournaList was a writer for Ars Technica... and as I recall, only 24-48 hours before that discovery, he was LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH and adamantly arguing that there was absolutely NO communication between gaming magazine writers, and that the "Gamers are Dead" articles were all just a coincidence.

That was also the last time I commented there. Left several comments dumping huge loads of whale-feces on the scoundrel. Figured my ID would get banned... so never even bothered to come back. I was already sick of Ars Technica -- I hadn't checked out any of their postings in over a year before that incident anyways... primarily because of all the SJW stupidity, and I had an ID suspended for pointing out that the reader/commenter "Wheels of Confusion" is a person who deliberately sows confusion, primarily through the use of outright lie.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:40 AM  

@20

"Perhaps there is a community of developers in either Russia or the greater China area (China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc.) that can continue the development of Linux in an area of the world that is not affected by SJW types (SJW's and PCism seems to be an exclusively Western phenomenon)."

PCism and SJWism are an exclusively Western phenomenom?

Really?

the very TERM and PRACTICE of Political Correctness originated in the Moscow Politburo c. 1927. SJW-ism as we know it... You've never heard of Lysenkoism which is SJW genetics... [If a scrawny man who excels in track goes into, say, blacksmithing, and develops huge arm muscles and upper body strength, his son will be born with more arm and upper body strength than he was. This was all used to justify the pursuit of developing The New Soviet Man -- it was a political attempt to deny basic human nature: if an adult's physical adaptations can be passed on to children, then so can our psychological manipulations of the populace!"


As for China ... ever hear of the Red Guards?
How about their new internet social credit scheme?

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:41 AM  

@23

"Will you trust a kernel developed in China?"

Hell, I wouldn't even trust a minimalist, no-flags version "ls" or "cat" developed in China.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:47 AM  

@26

"The Navy's newest destroyer USS Zumwalt runs on Linux. I wonder if the Navy, or Raytheon, forked their own kernel. Some of the other branches have been adopting Linux for various systems too."

They tried for 5 years to get it to work on Windows. Prototype was constantly having to be towed back to port.

What kind of idiot would even consider running a warship on Windows. Hell, ANY vehicle with people in it, including a railroad switch engine.
If it absolutely, positively MUST have working controls available for emergency braking, engine speed changes and/or maneuvering, trusting ANYTHING from Microsoft is a mistake. After all, they were the originaters of the "Charge your PAYING CUSTOMER to your Beta-testers... Never buy the .0 version of ANY Microsoft software -- it's always a dog and a reliable only for generating BSOD's.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:49 AM  

@28

"I thought this had to be a joke at first. I could see him getting fed up and walking away, because it's been a pretty thankless task for a long time. But that stuff about apologizing and getting help doesn't sound like him at all."

1: Hopefully, Linus is just screwing with them.

2: At his age, I doubt the PC/SJW crap is really going to have any long effect on his behavior.

3: They're going to use the CoC to remove him from his own project.

4: If he doesn't fork it when #3 happens, then I'll be very surprised.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:51 AM  

5: How much do you want to bet that after the SJW's get full control, they will attempt to eradicate all pre-SJW versions that remain in source-code repositories.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 9:54 AM  

@38

" For example, what is to keep a group of alt-right red pilled dev ops from grabbing Linux and creating their own cooperative dev group that limits participation but continues to allow open and free access to the product?"

Nothing but the will (or lack of) to do so.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 11:08 AM  

@60

"> The linux kernel has gotten awfully big and complex,

Because it's a monolithic kernerl trying to be all things to all people. From a purely technical perspective Tanenbaum was correct and a microkernel is the way to go."

ldmod
lsmod
rmmod

By the way, microkernels SUCK because they're slower than dogshit.

Blogger James Dixon September 18, 2018 11:54 AM  

> By the way, microkernels SUCK because they're slower than dogshit.

They can be. They can not be. Don't confuse any specific implementation with the general theory. OS-9 was largely implemented as a microkernel, and it was anything but slow: https://infogalactic.com/info/OS-9

And I've been using Slackware for 24 years now. I know about kernel modules. That doesn't change the basic arguments for and against microkernels.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 12:27 PM  

In a microkernel, every kernel call turns into at least TWO function calls. That's double the amount of time fiddling with the stack.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 18, 2018 12:28 PM  

In a microkernel, every kernel call turns into at least TWO function calls. That's double the amount of time fiddling with the stack.

Blogger ThatWouldBeTelling September 18, 2018 12:42 PM  

@118 Dirk Manly:

In a microkernel, every kernel call turns into at least TWO function calls. That's double the amount of time fiddling with the stack.

That depends on the microkernel and system architecture. As I understand it, a now standard approach is for the base microkernel to parcel out access to hardware resources to privileged processes so that your user program might make only one system call. But it's certainly harder to make them fast, especially with our current ccNUMA multiple core highest performance CPUs.

Blogger Cynic In Chief September 18, 2018 3:03 PM  

Random #57 wrote:That depends on the microkernel and system architecture.

The first-generation microkernels weren't exactly micro and ran like shit.
L4 is a good example of a second-generation microkernel that actually perform quite well. They even have the whole Linux kernel running in user mode on top of L4 with only a small performance decrease compared to running the thing in kernel mode. A well-designed second or third generation microkernel can run circles around a monolithic kernel in terms of stability while getting a minor performance increase. The issue is that like a good monolithic kernel, it's hard to design and write it well.

Blogger Halibetlector September 18, 2018 3:41 PM  

Slightly OT: So, there's this...

https://www.bannedinsv.com/

Legitimate? or Honeypot?

Blogger tz September 18, 2018 4:23 PM  

Meanwhile, government grants to STEMinists

Blogger Daniel September 19, 2018 11:55 AM  

I smell linus is using this with another purpose in mind

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2018 2:51 PM  

> A well-designed second or third generation microkernel can run circles around a monolithic kernel in terms of stability while getting a minor performance increase. The issue is that like a good monolithic kernel, it's hard to design and write it well.

Exactly. The devil is always in the details. Like I noted, there are arguments both for and against a microkernel. But kernel bloat is one of the significant arguments in their favor versus monolithic kernels.

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