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Wednesday, October 03, 2018

A letter to the civic nationalists

Inspired by the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, the Z-man addresses the civic nationalists who have been distressed by this glimpse into the manners and customs of Post-America.
Think about all that has been said and written in favor of civil nationalism, yet, here we are anyway.... Look at the fruits of civic nationalism. The champions of the constitutional order and rule of law are all sitting on the Republican side, getting rolled by the non-white rage heads responsible for this circus. The professional civic nationalists have built out a well-financed system to promote your cause. Yet here they are getting clobbered again. If they can’t win this fight, what can they win?

Look. I get it. In your heart you know our side is right about “the race stuff.”. It’s why you moved to a neighborhood with good schools and a bad basketball team. It’s why you support Israel and oppose Islam. You know that only in a society run by white men can there be anything resembling civil order. You hate yourself for it so you have created all sorts of ways to show you’re not an anti-Semite or conceal your real feelings toward blacks. It’s hard to put down that steamer trunk of guilt you have been taught to carry.

I get it. All of us on this side of the great divide get it. All of us have made the journey you will have to make. It’s not easy to accept that all the stuff you have been taught about the constitution and patriotism was just a way to blind you to the approaching darkness. Now you have a chance to open your eyes and see what comes next if you don’t begin your journey to this side. That circus on your television is not going to just fade away. it is a glimpse into the future, of your children’s future and your grandchildren’s future.
Many civic nationalists can't bear to face the truth about the transformation of the USA into Post-America due to their own identity complications. I understand that challenge very well, being identity-complicated myself.

But if you are willing to sell out your entire nation, your entire civilization, for the sake of your Chinese wife, your adopted black son, or your very nice, hard-working neighbor from Venezuela who loves football and just wants a better life for his extended family, then how are you any different than the businessman who was willing to sell the Soviets the rope with which they intended to hang him? How are you not a traitor to your family, your people, and your country, even by your own lofty principles?

If your definition of "America" requires denying the very existence of America as an actual, material, historical nation, if you deny that Americans are one united people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, and very similar in their manners and customs, then how can you possibly consider yourself to be a patriot or a loyal American at all?

And, regardless of your heritage, your ideological self-identification, or your position on optimal tax rates, how can you possibly consider yourself to be anything but a de facto member of the anti-American globalist Left?

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82 Comments:

Blogger The Aardvark October 03, 2018 6:29 AM  

And all the fourth grade history teachers hie them to their faintin' couches.

Blogger Unknown October 03, 2018 6:49 AM  

Vox day maybe a topic for voxiversity is why race mixing is culturally destructive.

Blogger Stilicho October 03, 2018 6:52 AM  

Many civnats are angry over the Kavanaugh show trial. I'm sure they'll show up and vote in November. What remains to be seen is whether they learn that you can't fight fire with virtue signaling.

Blogger Stilicho October 03, 2018 6:58 AM  

By the way, has anyone watched Ted Cruz campaign and debate Beto? I'm wondering if he has learned anything from watching Trump handle the median dems and other political opponents (including Cruz himself at one point).

Blogger VD October 03, 2018 7:03 AM  

why race mixing is culturally destructive.

It's not. One of the things you guys have GOT to stop doing is looking at EVERYTHING from a white middle-class American perspective.

Race-mixing is culturally TRANSFORMATIVE. These transformations are desirable in some circumstances and undesirable in others. For example, many Hispanics and East Indians actively seek out lighter-skinned partners for their children in order to improve the family's future status.

To constantly talk about facts as being intrinsically good or bad is intellectually sloppy, misleading, and unconvincing.

Blogger Shane Sullivan October 03, 2018 7:16 AM  

"But if you are willing to sell out your entire nation, your entire civilization, for the sake of your Chinese wife"

Derbyshire down! Derbyshire Down!

I want to be loyal to the America you describe Vox, but even amongst the white population, it doesn't exist anymore.

Blogger Duke Norfolk October 03, 2018 7:21 AM  

Unknown wrote:Vox day maybe a topic for voxiversity is why race mixing is culturally destructive.

Culturally? Yeah, that too.

Blogger Stilicho October 03, 2018 7:22 AM  

@VD neither can we lose sight of the fact that the enemies of our culture want to effectively transform it out of existence.

Blogger McChuck October 03, 2018 7:27 AM  

Our land for our people. Our laws for our people. Everybody else can get get off my lawn.

The only problem now is that we can't agree on when to start the shooting. We seem to agree that we can't start it, because the sleeping normies will side with the little guy. But no matter what happens, the newsweasels will always show their side as the "oppressed victims."

So the question returns, as always, to: is it still too early, or is it now too late?

Blogger Silly but True October 03, 2018 7:29 AM  

As we learned from the experiences of the first Asians who came to America and tried marrying WASPs:

Two Wongs don’t make a white.

Blogger Silent Draco October 03, 2018 7:29 AM  

Civic nationalism is a tactic, and a poor one to rely on. There is no strategy supporting it, and the logistics are failing.

This is downstream from the doctrine of the Constitution and Rule of Law. That doctrine only remains viable if you understand and believe in the credo, the core principles underlying it.

The credo at its simplest expression is Christianity, Western Civilization, and the existence of nations. When men lose belief in and adherence to the credo, it weakens and destroys everything. It took centuries of lies, bribes, and coercion to weaken the credo to this point. We can fix this and counterattack, but is will involve massive pain and regret. These can wait until after we achieve victory.

Belief in civic nationalism is like belief in the massed bayonet charge, while your opponents are using machine guns and tanks.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2018 7:37 AM  

Shane Sullivan wrote:

I want to be loyal to the America you describe Vox, but even amongst the white population, it doesn't exist anymore.


There are plenty of Americans and American families alive and well in America.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 7:46 AM  

"The only problem now is that we can't agree on when to start the shooting. We seem to agree that we can't start it"

Starting right now wouldn't be starting it. It's already begun, it just hasn't picked up speed yet.

Blogger Zaklog the Great October 03, 2018 7:47 AM  

why race mixing is culturally destructive.

It's not. . . . Race-mixing is culturally TRANSFORMATIVE.


But if the culture you happen to be starting from is that of a white American, most of it would not be in a direction you like, and therefore "destructive" seems accurate enough.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 7:49 AM  

The thing is, they're still pretending that their lone shooters aren't representative of most of their useful idiots -- even though they totally are. It'll be the same game all the way down, they already attack us in every way and then lie about it.

The trick with the normies isn't to bee seen shooting last -- it's to make it impossible for them to ignore that the shooting has already begun, and the other side are cannibals.

Blogger VD October 03, 2018 7:51 AM  

But if the culture you happen to be starting from is that of a white American, most of it would not be in a direction you like, and therefore "destructive" seems accurate enough.

Obviously. And it will therefore not only be inaccurate, but unconvincing and borderline retarded to anyone who does not share that perspective, which is most of the planet.

If you are going to make statements of fact, in a dialectic context, you cannot be that sloppy and implicitly particular.

Blogger JACIII October 03, 2018 7:52 AM  

"It’s hard to put down that steamer..", but you'll be better off when you do.

Tell me I'm not the only one who realized the paragraph could appropriately stop there.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 7:54 AM  

"But if the culture you happen to be starting from is that of a white American"

Obviously the cultural effects depend entirely on the individual's particular cultural situation. That's the whole point.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer October 03, 2018 7:55 AM  

Like being transformed from a Ferrari to a Chevy

Blogger Lyon October 03, 2018 8:02 AM  

I get giddy when I read Z-Man and Vox write about this issue in such a lucid and provocative manner.

And the comment section here never disappoints, always dusted with a few gems and zingers that are on point (...I'm looking at you @3. and @13.).

The people in darkness have seen a great light...

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 03, 2018 8:13 AM  

Every "culture" has in part an emphasis on good breeding, what is retarded is the idiotic and childish virtue signaling denying it.

What you see in part in America and the world today is a hapless despairing rage monster lamenting the fact that there is not an ideal white spouse for them.

Anti-whites are sick, sick people.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 03, 2018 8:13 AM  

@12

"
There are plenty of Americans and American families alive and well in America."

But the schools and universities are propagandizing their kids into being Anti-Americans.

Blogger basementhomebrewer October 03, 2018 8:21 AM  

The whole Kavanaugh situation is very illuminating to any moderate sitting on the fence. Kavanaugh is the moderates nominee. He is the nominee Flake was supposed to be supporting. Flake won't even fight for his own nominee, what makes you think he is going to fight for the things you believe in? The people behind Flake won't threaten his cushy lobbyist job he is lining up. They won't put the screws to him to support their nominee. What makes anyone think these people are worth having as allies? They are less than worthless and their money is useless for advancing against the left. Leave them behind.

Blogger tz October 03, 2018 8:31 AM  


A simple example of the Camel the SeiveGnats are swallowing is the Kavanaugh Circus and some specific clowns.

Mazie Hirono is acting like Queen Kilueaea of the Hawaiian barbarians, not like someone civilized. But she is Japanese - you know like those where ACCUSED so had to be interred during WW2.

Then there's Black Spartacus.

These are senators on the Judiciary Committee but seem to be going Maxine Waters, and not on some stump campaign speech to supporter, they are doing it in a hearing with everyone watching. Then going on CNN and doubling down.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 8:34 AM  

"But the schools and universities are propagandizing their kids into being Anti-Americans."

Homeschool or die.

Blogger tz October 03, 2018 8:41 AM  

The history of the Trump family business is bringing out my inner socialist. Some defenses of Kavanaugh are bringing out my inner feminist. The Trump-era degradation of American conservatism is bringing out my inner liberal.
IT’S HAPPENING AGAIN. https://t.co/bdCQ20o0gR
(((@BillKristol))) October 3, 2018


St. Paul talked about those who were inwardly ravenous wolves.

Inwardly Kristoll is a socialist, feminist, liberal.

It means his wool conservative clothing is threadbare and coming off.

"Stop Trump or I will become what I always have been"?

If these are whom the CivNats are trying to impress, the CivNats are as bad or worse.

Blogger tz October 03, 2018 8:43 AM  

@19 I assume you don't mean being Cor-Vetted.
Besides, Ferraris are foreign cars, Corvettes are part of USA legend like Route 66.

Blogger VD October 03, 2018 8:48 AM  

You're banned, Oliver Holloway. Don't comment here again. Any comments you leave in the future will be deleted.

Any commenter who attempts to change the subject to me, make the subject about me, or apply the subject to me is instantly banned.

Blogger MisesMat October 03, 2018 8:53 AM  

Hi Vox,

I'm curious about your opinion of white Americans. Do you think they will ever actually, consciously fight back? Or do you see them going the way of the Boer in SA? Thanks!

Blogger Damelon Brinn October 03, 2018 8:55 AM  

@26, I physically cringed when I read Kristol's tweet. I haven't seen attention-seeking that desperate and pathetic since....actually I can't think of a witty example.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd October 03, 2018 8:56 AM  

Silly but True wrote:Two Wongs don’t make a white.

White and Huang, however, have done so.

Unknown wrote:Vox day maybe a topic for voxiversity is why race mixing is culturally destructive.

Culture is a racial construct.



Blogger tz October 03, 2018 8:56 AM  

As far as the shooting, it has begun and will accelerate in the deep blue ghetto shitholes. That will drive the sane and smart out into the red territory where we can shoot back, but also simply cut the supply lines. They can then continue to shoot, smash, and burn without food, fuel, or power. Or water (Anyone else notice the aqueduct and resevoir problems?)

You might be thinkng to themselves that they couldn't be that stupid to destroy their own infrastructure they depend on. But have you noticed any capacity for reason or patience or restraint on the SJWs or Left? They will loot and burn down their cities in one big flashmob. Then?

Blogger VD October 03, 2018 9:01 AM  

I'm curious about your opinion of white Americans. Do you think they will ever actually, consciously fight back?

Yes, but it is already too late to preserve their dominance over the entire territory. I expect the USA to break into five or more states, at least two of which will be predominantly white ethnostates and at least one civic nationalist state. Several will claim to be the One True USA.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 03, 2018 9:08 AM  

The shooting has not realky started. Bubbles may have narely stsryed at the bottom of the pot but it is not yet boiling.

Want to know what it will look when the shooting stsrts? Read about bloody Kansas.

Are you a Lincoln man or a Davis man?

Blogger Whitecloak October 03, 2018 9:18 AM  

All I know is that the crack-up is ready and we just need a good, ringing crisis to get us to the shattering.

I think folks on both sides are eager. I've family that won't talk to family on the other side of the gap. Let must be done be done, that I might save my beloved riverlands along the Ohio from the predations of megalopolis swine.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 9:21 AM  

"Bubbles may have narely stsryed at the bottom of the pot but it is not yet boiling."

Doesn't have to get any hotter to be boiling, the difference is only a matter of time, and not very long at that.

"The shooting has not realky started."

If the shooting has started in any way shape or form, the shooting has started. Did I mention that it started about two years ago?

Blogger notjoshing October 03, 2018 9:32 AM  

My understanding of the premise is that American identity consists of sharing five traits: language, religion, government principles, similarity of manners and culture, and ancestry. The first three seem characteristic, but not unique to, American identity: governmental principles and religion are shared by diverse population groups, even persisting in communist nations; language may be learned. Manners and culture seems a bit vague as a category, and may be learned, although one can argue this; I am going to leave manners and culture for the moment and get back to ancestry.

An individual emigrating to the US from England today starts with a base set of beliefs distinct from, and in most fundamental ways at odds with, that of traditional American values. Religious beliefs differ. Government principles differ. Manners and customs differ. The individual speaks with an abominable gargling accent which makes even shared language arguable. In addition, this person came for a job, and generally looks down on Americans for being insufficiently converged. The individual does bear genetic markers consistent with the Founding Fathers. This individual seems less likely to me to become an American than a Kenyan woman who learned the language well enough to be better than most natives, devotes herself to Christ, believes in a government based on principles espoused by the Constitution, and who learns the manners and customs of her community.

The race argument does not wash. Allowing an individual's family X years or generations to culturally acclimate, and get "skin in the game" makes sense for any individual, regardless of ancestry. The problem we have created exists because we have not filtered for the first three criteria, and we have tolerated those in active opposition to them.

Blogger Zaklog the Great October 03, 2018 9:40 AM  

And it will therefore not only be inaccurate, but unconvincing and borderline retarded to anyone who does not share that perspective, which is most of the planet.

Ah, I was being too parochial for this discussion. Fair enough. But on the other hand, is there anyone really actively in favor of their culture being transformed that way. It seems like white people have been more or less brow-beaten into it, but there’s not a lot of enthusiasm. Who does want that?

Blogger The Observer October 03, 2018 9:51 AM  

"But the schools and universities are propagandizing their kids into being Anti-Americans."

Good. A strong filter to weed out the chaff is needed. The remnant will be even more genetically inured to leftism.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira October 03, 2018 10:34 AM  

To Italy. I have to go back.

Blogger Dangeresque October 03, 2018 10:56 AM  

Shane Sullivan wrote:I want to be loyal to the America you describe Vox, but even amongst the white population, it doesn't exist anymore.

Then it must be recrudesced, so stop with the despair and get to work.

Dirk Manly wrote:But the schools and universities are propagandizing their kids into being Anti-Americans.

Sooner or later, a pendulum must swing the other way. Forget about it's current speed and direction.

Blogger Crew October 03, 2018 11:03 AM  

In the mean time, it seems blacks are gearing up for a race war:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAOPZ6B67s

Blogger A rebel without a General October 03, 2018 11:05 AM  

Though I hope Kav gets the nomination and I suspect he will. This is all payback for the cucks backstabbing Roy Moore and giving the enemy a valid tactic to use.

Blogger pyrrhus October 03, 2018 11:07 AM  

The evolution of Z-man from some kind of civ-nat to alt-right has been pretty rapid, less than 2 years...And Z-man is jewish.

Blogger dvdivx October 03, 2018 11:20 AM  

Race mixing is ultimately genocidal in nature. You saw it in the early distruction of native American tribes and you see it now with the Mexican invasion of what's left of native Americans. East Asian males also understand this as do muslim Invaders. Even the Bible warned Jews against mixing with non Jews. You do no favors to your children by denying them a heritage

Blogger pyrrhus October 03, 2018 12:06 PM  

Feinstein now wants to keep FBI report secret, while ex-boyfriend blows whistle on Ford..https://thepoliticalinsider.com/ex-tells-fbi-ford-coached-polygraph/

Blogger Lance E October 03, 2018 12:29 PM  

Identity complication confuses me. If I'm a guest in someone's house, I don't go through elaborate mental gymnastics to convince myself that I actually live there. Why is it so hard for immigrants to perceive themselves as guests, subject to the hospitality of the native population and expected to behave themselves?

Nobody wants to leave their current home, but people get forced into doing that all the time for all kinds of different reasons: economic hardship, crime, natural disasters, even eminent domain. If you were able to reorganize your life to move to another country one time, then you can do it a second time, if it comes to that.

Is it just Muh Nazis? Irrational fear of ending up in a death camp, instead of just going home like >99% of all deportations?

Blogger John October 03, 2018 12:40 PM  

Z-man writes: You hate yourself for it so you have created all sorts of ways to show you’re not an anti-Semite or conceal your real feelings toward blacks.

Actually...that's the problem. The white Christian CivNats aren't concealing their true feelings. They're expressing them. They believe "racism is a sin".

As long as they believe that, nothing else matters.

So they must be challenged to prove their case. They cannot simply go around making baseless allegations of wrongdoing. They must prove that opposing the Civil Rights Movement was, in principle, a sin. They must prove that opposing the 14th Amendment was, in principle, a sin. They must prove that repealing the Civil Rights Act would, in principle, be a sin.

What Christian CivNats are guilty of doing, among many other things, is confusing the religious proposition that "all men are created equal" with Christianity.

Blogger Mark Seifert October 03, 2018 12:51 PM  

if you deny that Americans are one united people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government

For the purpose of strengthening the argument, it would be useful to define 'ancestors'. Does the inclusion of 'principles of government' in the statement imply that the Founding Fathers are exemplars of 'ancestors' ?

Blogger Nick Siekierski October 03, 2018 1:00 PM  

I’m 100% Polish but have still dealt with “identity complications” being raised in America. I hold Civic Nationalists responsible for this, they’ve lied about what it means to be an American for 60+ years, essentially distracting “heritage America” while they and the left facilitated a deluge of alien invaders.

Blogger justaguy October 03, 2018 1:15 PM  

How many WASPs are still left in America? Is it a majority? Still a P? While the West may have been built by all of Christendom, America was built by WASPs. After the large immigration waves, are those English, Welsh, and Scottish descendants still a majority? I am not so sure anymore.

While the Dems are still led by a white leadership- that is changing rapidly. The whites have always had a few factions-- take your pick of books about the tribes of America. I am waiting for any party to actually be tribal-- actually anywhere in the West (US or Europe). China, Japan, and Korea already are.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2018 1:16 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:"But the schools and universities are propagandizing their kids into being Anti-Americans."

Homeschool or die.


Yep. Homeschool or die.

Blogger Mark Seifert October 03, 2018 1:16 PM  

Nick Siekierski wrote:I’m 100% Polish but have still dealt with “identity complications” being raised in America. I hold Civic Nationalists responsible for this, they’ve lied about what it means to be an American for 60+ years, essentially distracting “heritage America” while they and the left facilitated a deluge of alien invaders.

Well. If the Alien and Sedition Acts had held up as the Federalists intended, you wouldn't have that problem. Probably.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2018 1:21 PM  

notjoshing wrote:My understanding of the premise is that American identity consists of sharing five traits: language, religion, government principles, similarity of manners and culture, and ancestry.

The premise of American identity is the same as the premise of Chinese identity or Native American identity.

notjoshing wrote:This individual seems less likely to me to become an American than a Kenyan woman who learned the language well enough to be better than most natives, devotes herself to Christ, believes in a government based on principles espoused by the Constitution, and who learns the manners and customs of her community.

Can I, a white American male, move to China, adopt Chinese customs, learn Chinese, marry a Chinese woman, and then become Chines myself?

notjoshing wrote:The race argument does not wash. Allowing an individual's family X years or generations to culturally acclimate, and get "skin in the game" makes sense for any individual, regardless of ancestry. The problem we have created exists because we have not filtered for the first three criteria, and we have tolerated those in active opposition to them.

Whether you like it or not, race matters.

Blogger Mark Seifert October 03, 2018 1:31 PM  

justaguy wrote:How many WASPs are still left in America? Is it a majority? Still a P? While the West may have been built by all of Christendom, America was built by WASPs.

Making religious arguments based on the intent and will of the original Americans is foolish and doomed. It goes on forever, and it's not an argument you want to win anyway, because winning it implies giving government the power to suppress dissenting religions. And then you get to have a whole new set of arguments about who is Christian and who isn't. And by the time that's settled the sun has gone cold and we've got this whole new set of problems.

America isn't a Christian Nation because of the will or intent of the founding Americans, and you can define 'founding' however you'd like.

America is a Christian Nation because Christians developed and owned a large chunk of our earliest printing, publishing, and distributing infrastructure.

If this is the goal, stop wasting energy on an argument that goes on forever, and focus instead on understanding that principle.

Blogger McChuck October 03, 2018 1:43 PM  

@51 JustAGuy - there are around 100 million of us WASPS left, who haven't been co-opted by the Left. We have some Catholic, neo-pagan, and agnostic white allies, raising our total numbers to around 140 million.

We fought WWII with 120 million whites of all ages. We fought in WWI with just 90 million. We can do this, and recover.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 03, 2018 1:44 PM  

@36
Don't do much cooking, or tea, do you?

Blogger McChuck October 03, 2018 1:46 PM  

@55 Mark - Please learn some actual history. Not from Howard Zinn.
First Thanksgiving - English Christian Puritans, thanking God for teaching them the evils of communism.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2018 1:57 PM  

Z-man is mistaken about the Civic Nationalists in ways that can actually be honest mistakes, because they are guesses on his part....and they can only be guesses because we cannot see into any man's heart (or generalize about so many hearts at the same time).

Z-man accuses the Civic Nationalists of being insincere. He says they do not actually believe what they say. He says they suffer from guilt because they lie about their beliefs. I would argue his assertions are unproven. I believe they actually believe what they profess and that is why they are willing to die on that hill, no matter how many times they are defeated by their enemies.

The Civic Nationalists have tamed the race thingy by insisting that race does not matter. We achieve a colorblind society, not because there are no races, but because nobody gives a shit about what race (or races) you might be. (Besides, America has become a mongrel society anyway with mixed backgrounds and origins, so it is silly for anyone to claim any one race or national origin.)

Civic Nationalism seems to have taken root during WWII as part of wartime propaganda. The Allies were a multi-national, multi-racial, multi-lingual, unified force for good determined to utterly destroy the Axis powers. That meant that the Soviets are our close allies and friends, even though they never were before. It meant that the Chinese were too, even the communists. We had to make friends with every nation that would later become bitter opponents and make enemies of nations that would later be the best friends we have in the world. Civic Nationalism had difficulty overcoming their own wartime propaganda and so did the country....so we ended up feeling betrayed by our former allies and having to kiss and make up with Germany and Japan and Italy.

We have seen Civic Nationalism before, during the period between the world wars, when the very egalitarian movement had people renouncing nationality altogether and claiming to be "Citizens of the World". Yes, many were peace-niks and pacifists, but so too are many of the Civic Nationalists.

The real Civic Nationalists are not NeoCons but what is left of American Isolationism. Yes, many of them are pacifists so they do not demonize their opponents but insist they are "just like us", or could be. Who were the Isolationists who opposed FDR for taking the country to war? Republicans...and their victory over FDR/Truman was Dwight Eisenhower.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd October 03, 2018 1:59 PM  

Joshua_D wrote:

Yep. Homeschool or die.


It's amazing how often we come around to this, on how many topics.

Joshua_D wrote:Can I, a white American male, move to China, adopt Chinese customs, learn Chinese, marry a Chinese woman, and then become Chines myself?

Absolutely not. Chinese is a race. The idea that nationality could be separate from race is inconceivable to the Chinese. You are or are not born Chinese, and changing citizenship doesn't change that. They aren't interested in giving you citizenship, because they know that won't make you Chinese.

Culture is a racial construct.

Blogger Mark Seifert October 03, 2018 2:27 PM  

McChuck wrote:@55 Mark - Please learn some actual history. Not from Howard Zinn.

First Thanksgiving - English Christian Puritans, thanking God for teaching them the evils of communism.


Plymouth Puritans is your sole definition of founding American then? Ok.

Feasting with American Indians "as friends and neighbors", rejoicing together at a "feast of tabernacles" based on the Jewish model.

Tolerant of Quakers. And if you can do that, you can likely tolerate... a lot of things.

Cooperating with American Indians against perceived foreign aggression. Negotiating trade deals. Proximity making them stronger.

And then an English privateer showed up and screwed it all up. Ah well.

That aside, I find that a perfectly reasonable starting point. You're not a Christian because of Plymouth Colony, though.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 03, 2018 2:44 PM  

Or after being sealed off from rural sources of food, they destroy their own infrastructure in the urban areas, and all that needs to be done is to let the carrion eaters do their work, and then walk in to uninhabited cities.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2018 3:38 PM  

Very good, Dirk.
There will be no major battles for the major cities. They are simply untenable and indefensible and unsustainable and vulnerable. Inside those cities are not the Men of Harlech (Welshmen), whose siege held out for seven years. (Edinburgh Castle in Scotland held out for five years.) Without electricity, fuel, food, and water, the major cities would only last a few days.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 03, 2018 3:47 PM  

Mark Seifert wrote:You're not a Christian because of Plymouth Colony, though.

So, you don't undertand the difference between an example and a proof? Allrighty then...

The point, which presumably sailed right over your head is tha America was a Christian nation because Americans were Christians. To the extent that even people who weren't Christians had to pretend to be Christian in order to win office. The American press was Christian because Americans were Christian.
You have cause and effect 180 degrees out of phase.


DonReynolds wrote:. I would argue his assertions are unproven. I believe they actually believe what they profess and that is why they are willing to die on that hill, no matter how many times they are defeated by their enemies.

Zman is speaking from personal experience.

Blogger Mr Darcy October 03, 2018 4:04 PM  

#6 Shane wrote:
"I want to be loyal to the America you describe Vox, but even amongst the white population, it doesn't exist anymore."

Yes, it does. In pockets here and there.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 03, 2018 4:15 PM  

If your version of the future depends on Elon Musk, you're in for disappointment.

Blogger Mr Darcy October 03, 2018 4:28 PM  

@51:

No, WASPs are no longer the majority even of the white population. The census of 1980 showed that the largest white ethnic group is of German extraction. Whites of Anglo-Saxon (English/British) ancestry make up about 23% of the whole population today. Not exact, but close.

This article excludes non-English Britons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Americans

Blogger OneWingedShark October 03, 2018 4:35 PM  

notjoshing wrote:My understanding of the premise is that American identity consists of sharing five traits: language, religion, government principles, similarity of manners and culture, and ancestry. The first three seem characteristic, but not unique to, American identity[…]

[…]

The race argument does not wash. Allowing an individual's family X years or generations to culturally acclimate, and get "skin in the game" makes sense for any individual, regardless of ancestry. The problem we have created exists because we have not filtered for the first three criteria, and we have tolerated those in active opposition to them.

An interesting analysis, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree (though it certainly bears more thought). I am reminded of Ruth who said:

Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.

dvdivx wrote:Race mixing is ultimately genocidal in nature. You saw it in the early distruction of native American tribes and you see it now with the Mexican invasion of what's left of native Americans. East Asian males also understand this as do muslim Invaders. Even the Bible warned Jews against mixing with non Jews. You do no favors to your children by denying them a heritage
No, it's not genocidal. By definition it's propagating the parents genes. (As Vox said upthread, it's transformative and not destructive in nature.)

It's also interesting to note that what you are citing in the bible is [likely] not about interracial marriage, per se, but rather about the inhabitants of Canaan and, in particular, turning the Israelite away from God. (See Deuteronomy 7:2-5; Joshua 23:11-13; Ezra 9:10-15.) — IOW in the Bible it seems very much more about God's people being, well, God's than mere genealogy. (As exemplified by Ruth or the Cushite wife of Moses. [Numbers 12:1])

justaguy wrote:How many WASPs are still left in America? Is it a majority? Still a P? While the West may have been built by all of Christendom, America was built by WASPs. After the large immigration waves, are those English, Welsh, and Scottish descendants still a majority? I am not so sure anymore.

While the Dems are still led by a white leadership- that is changing rapidly. The whites have always had a few factions-- take your pick of books about the tribes of America. I am waiting for any party to actually be tribal-- actually anywhere in the West (US or Europe). China, Japan, and Korea already are.

This is a good question: how many WASPs are in the US?

The Democratic Party's rapid change is pretty fascinating to watch in real-time. Such a radical change in so little time would have been nearly inconceivable fifty- (and perhaps even thirty-) years ago. / Perhaps this is one of the best ways to wake people up to the deleterious effects of so many illegals, "guest workers", and other foreigners: can you imagine imposing the current Democrat-mindset/-platforms on even cold-war era Democrats?

Blogger Mark Seifert October 03, 2018 4:45 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Mark Seifert wrote:You're not a Christian because of Plymouth Colony, though.

The point, which presumably sailed right over your head is tha America was a Christian nation because Americans were Christians. To the extent that even people who weren't Christians had to pretend to be Christian in order to win office. The American press was Christian because Americans were Christian.


I was agreeing with him, mostly. It's a cleaner baseline than founding fathers, certainly -- who had all sorts of complications with foreign govts, and a bunch were land speculators which was super problematic, and then they got to the point where some of them wanted to kick those damn wild irishmen out of the country and every other damn thing.

Plymouth Colony Pilgrims were pretty different from Mass Bay Puritans, though.

They put their women to work. Women could be a party to contracts. If a woman remarried, the property she inherited (automatically) was hers to control separately. If a husband visibly harmed his wife, he would be publicly whipped. It's all quite interesting.

There wouldn't have been an issue of 'pretending to be Christian' to hold office then, because... pretty small colony of course. By Jefferson's time, he was accused of being an atheist, but it didn't seem to bother him, and he kept getting elected and appointed anyway. And he wasn't really an atheist anyway, he just cut out the parts of the bible he didn't like, which I suppose is fine.

We're mostly in agreement anyway. All I'm really saying is that an argument that hangs on the codified intent of 'founders' is an argument that's never going to end. Taking it back to Plymouth is fine by me, but that has side effects that most won't like (they'd gone to Holland first, and THAT is always a problem, I think we all agree on that).

Blogger Amy Armadillo October 03, 2018 4:58 PM  

I remember Z-man's series of posts on the 2017 Amren conference. He's a big fan of Jared Taylor, and like Taylor has expressed disdain for the big JQ. Unless he's had a significant ideological awakening on this issue, I don't see much difference between Z's condemnation of Alt-Lite and his own position.

Blogger Mark Seifert October 03, 2018 5:10 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:If your version of the future depends on Elon Musk, you're in for disappointment.

We agree on this. He can try to sell me all the flamethrowers he likes, it's just a distraction.

Blogger CYGNUS FACETIOUS October 03, 2018 5:13 PM  

basementhomebrewer wrote:Flake won't even fight for his own nominee
Flake heel-turned today, at least on the allegations' sordidness.

VD wrote:it is already too late to preserve their dominance over the entire territory
It would seem that the Balkanization scenario comes to a head with strategic weapons facilities in every state, each a Ft. Chernyobl-Sumpter unto itself, in the absence of Acts of God level planetary events.

notjoshing wrote:This seems less likely to me to become an American than a Kenyan woman ...
Whose sons become Dindus 9/10 times because that's how their peer group will socialize them. Assimilation skips a generation, until it's no longer necessary, one way or another.

Mark Seifert wrote:For the purpose of strengthening the argument, it would be useful to define 'ancestors'.
Founding Stock. Forebearers. Host Nation(s). Progeny.
Assimilated Posterity may participate and build on the patrimony, but not replace the Progeny. They are not coequal to it as the Progeny is. They may make such a contribution to the patrimony that merits recognition to their own progeny that also accrues to that established by the Founding Stock and its scions. Doesn't make them Founding Stock.

dvdivx wrote:Race mixing is ultimately genocidal in nature.
There's blood, then there is blood. Outcrossing tends to occur between rarer blood types, who benefit disproportionately from gene flow, and interracial outbreeding most frequently by rH- of otherwise common blood group; -- while behavioral/ideological modifiers to endogamy are particularly deleterious, the act itself may have some justification where particularities of blood type are concerned. Hemolytic rh- disease by itself was likely responsible for an inordinate number of pre-modern infant and maternal moralities, and will be again in any post-Apocalyptic scenario.

Mark Seifert wrote:Well. If the Alien and Sedition Acts had held up as the Federalists intended, you wouldn't have that problem. Probably.
Remove Papist Kielbasa-Kebab.

DonReynolds wrote:The real Civic Nationalists are not NeoCons but what is left of American Isolationism.
The real Johnny Rebs were fighting to save the institution of slavery practiced by a sliver of the population.
The real Yankees were fighting to emancipate swarthy sweatshop labor hordes from the South to take their jobs. /s

Your average isolationist was still gung ho on the MacArthur model of glassing Norks and all their Maoist sepoys into submission at the time of "I Like Ike". Isolationists didn't begrudge Bonus Marchers after WWI, and viewed no special relationship with Loyalist Britain or national interest in bleeding for them on the continent for a second time, to the benefit of Smedley Butler's war racketeers. Until CivNats concede the 'isolationism' of white flight and correctly identify its causes & effects, there is no comparison to the national consensus against the world wars that required 9/11s moments of their own to induce. Here's a breadcrumb: Aleister Crowley sailed on the Lusitania just before its sinking. He convinced German intelligence that Americans would be cowed by an unrestrained demonstration of resolve in an act of ruthless force.

Blogger eclecticme October 03, 2018 6:26 PM  

OT
Here is a shock /sarcasm
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/409775-national-council-of-churches-calls-for-kavanaughs-nomination-to
National Council of Churches calls for Kavanaugh's nomination to be withdrawn
BY AVERY ANAPOL - 10/03/18 05:32 PM EDT

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 6:30 PM  

"Don't do much cooking, or tea, do you?"

The fact that people use different words for simmering and boiling, et-cetera does not mean that all of the above are not the results of water evaporating due to heat, possibly with catalyst. The function is still there, the difference is only rate.

Blogger Frank Lee October 03, 2018 7:48 PM  

The whole America is “dead stuff” isn’t connected to history or reality. Fantasize all you want about a past where whites sat on porches sipping mint juleps, but you might as well fantasize about how everyone in Rome was a senator.

America isn’t dead. Trump’s election proved it. The speed at which he rebuilt the economy and asserted our power over the world shows the American lion is still the king of the jungle. Trump is the most “American” president we’ve ever had.

Vox, you lost me when you raved about Franco as a leader. He isolated Spain as it declined from a world power into a third world country. It’s now a colony for the European Union. His rule was a great time for Catholic priests who wanted to molest choir boys, but Franco left Spain so decimated it was easy prey for the SJW’s.

Societies that close themselves off, like Franco’s Spain or Medieval Japan, or the fading Chinese Imperialists, end up being pushed around by nations that engage the wider world.

What is the American time period people are pinning for when they say “America is gone?” The first hundred years when it was importing hundreds of thousands of African slaves? Right after the civil war when there was mass of immigration of Irish and Asians? Historically, restrictions on immigration went on and off, but mostly off.

How about the run up to WWI? America as a colonial power. Taking over the Philippines and Panama showed our Western might. But it’s hard to keep out the people from your new colony. They learn your language, laws, customs and they have children with your soldiers.

Post WWI America had a lot of race based immigration restriction, and briefly forced out Asian and Mexican residents. It was the rise of all white unions and mainstream KKK influence. But enforcement of racial purity also empowered the progressive philosophy that government’s job was to engineer society rather than promote individualism.

America kicked ass durning WWII. But it did so by embracing multiculturalism to make the case that we were the good guys and Hitler was the bad guy.

The 50’s is a nice model for those fantasizing about a racially pure America. Immigration was restricted to mostly white Christians. There was lots of redlining to protect the purity of particular neighborhoods. But America’s white majority came about in a large part by the reclassification of Italians and Jews as “white.” And if this little 50’s slice of time is your dream of America, it’s reasonable to ask why it quickly vanished in the face of feminism, civil rights, and 60’s hippy drug culture.

If the US Constitution was meant set up a society only for the descendants of the white Christians who wrote it, it instantly failed and was doomed to fail. The story of America is the story of those white Christians, enslaving, killing, conquering, having children with, colonizing, and co-opting other races and cultures for its entire history. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, that’s American history.

America was NEVER one united people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, etc. New York never was that. Boston was never that. Let alone California or Texas or American Samoa.

Patton's speech was right. "Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle." Trump is absolutely as American as it gets. Because he relishes the fight.

Trump is fighting for American supremacy in a complex world. Next time we attack the Middle East, we take the oil. If Mexico and China don’t give us favorable trade deals, we’ll destroy them economically. If the USA doesn’t have enough whites and Christians, we’ll import them from Slovenia and ignore their accents.

American as never about station wagons filled with English speaking whites going to church. The real America was always a bunch of drunk cowboys, soldiers and businessmen having booty calls with whatever the exotic native existed in the place USA was in the process of exploiting.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2018 8:12 PM  

What a spew of absurdities, delusions, sophistry and lies you are, franky boy. You have to go back -- to hell, if you make it necessary.

Yes, we see you for what you are.

Blogger VD October 03, 2018 9:38 PM  

Vox, you lost me when you raved about Franco as a leader.

Not well enough, it appears. Why are you still here babbling in ignorance?

If the US Constitution was meant set up a society only for the descendants of the white Christians who wrote it, it instantly failed and was doomed to fail.

It was and it did. Which is why there is no point making a fetish of it.

Blogger 1Fury2@ October 03, 2018 10:07 PM  

I think Franks a ChiCom

Also, divershitty causes PTSD, and the armies of empire are the engine of CivNat:https://youtu.be/o9DNWK6WfQw

Blogger SirHamster October 03, 2018 10:30 PM  

Joshua_D wrote:Can I, a white American male, move to China, adopt Chinese customs, learn Chinese, marry a Chinese woman, and then become Chines myself?

A white man can move to China, adopt Chinese customs, learn Chinese, marry a Chinese woman ... and he will never be Chinese.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 04, 2018 11:49 AM  

@75

"Vox, you lost me when you raved about Franco as a leader. He isolated Spain as it declined from a world power into a third world country."

Spain hasn't been a world power since the early 1700's.

Even in the first World War (1754-1763) in which England and France battled over colonies around the globe, Spain lost territories.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 04, 2018 11:57 AM  

@75

"There was lots of redlining to protect the purity of particular neighborhoods."

There was a lot of redlining to protect the solvency of banks, so as to prevent a banking-system meltdown what would require a complete, systematic bailout like the TARP program in 2008.

Blogger Tom K. October 10, 2018 12:09 AM  

The challenge I face in embracing this Heritage America "reality" is on two main fronts.

First of which is my own mixed heritage. I am not aware that any of my ancestors came over before the great late 19th century migration epitomized by Ellis Island. Even my English forebears, whoever there were, didn't arrive here until then, as far as I know. Yet you seem to be saying, in spite of your mestizos roots, that only those from England proper, not even members of the commonwealth, such as Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland, are actual "Americans" to whom the North American continent was bequeathed. And if not them, then certainly not Germans (who settled Pennsylvania at the same time as the British and fought in the Revolutionary War), French (who were also here in large numbers), Swedes, Danes, or Dutch. Nearly all of whom share my family genetics. The progenitors of my children's mother's family came over on the Mayflower (documented), but their descendants mixed with many others, among which were some Cherokee.

So where does that leave me? My children? Do I qualify as a "Heritage American? Do my children because of their Mayflower pedigree? Are we entitled to claim this nation as the "posterity" to whom the founders ordained and established the Constitution? Or do we also "need to go back"? And if "back", where? What percentage of "blood" must we have to have a claim to a homeland in North America?

My second objection is the fact that the ONLY PEOPLE I see relentlessly and so far successfully pushing the Leftist claptrap of identity politics are OTHER WHITE PEOPLE, many of whom CAN trace their lineage back to the Mayflower or at least to the Revolution, whom you insist have a genetic memory of their race and culture within which is imprinted with the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights (but not any of the amendments which followed). By your theory, they should not even be ABLE to betray their racial heritage. Yet they do.

Meanwhile, as another point, I don't see ANY blacks or browns successfully pushing their superior diverse\ identities where they are not aided and abetted by WHITES. In fact, I can't imagine ANY OTHER COLOR IN AMERICA getting two minutes of airtime without Heritage America Whites pulling them along the entire way! Blacks can't organize SHIT. Latinos are simply taking what Heritage America Liberals are handing over to them.

This is just about the only blog I follow because I enjoy your perspective. But so far I have yet to see you address any of these observations nor offer any kind of an academic treatise on these ideas. Of course, you don't have to and I can go fuck myself if I expect you to defend your ideas to me; nevertheless, it would be interesting to read a thorough and concise discourse on these ideas that addresses the issues I've raised as well as others I haven't.

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