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Thursday, January 10, 2019

Darkstream: the magic cuddle puddlers


Unlike the Roganites and BJJ fanboys who were triggered by my observations, a number of actual grapplers and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners understood what I've been saying about grappling being, in most real-world situations, an impractical and dangerous approach to fighting. Especially these days. If Antifa is going to attack you, you can pretty much guarantee they will not do so 1v1.
  • Dean lister actually says a lot of the same things vox does. I mean, he talks about bar fights etc and how bjj is not optimal in those situations and the kinds of things that are effective in real fights.
  • Precisely. My experiences are the same as yours. Every serious fight I've been in ended up being me fighting more than four people. Last place you wanna be is the ground. There's a reason BJJ isn't taught for street defence.
  • I'm a BJJ instructor and have trained Shotokan for 7 years and Muay Thai for about 4. I've been in about 6 real world fights. Only 1 was 1 on 1. You should have knowledge of both standing and ground game. Being able to execute take downs and know how to get back up if you get down is very important. Vox made some good points. Grapplers stop being triggered. 1 on 1 the grappler will most likely win. Anything other than that you need to be as mobile as possible which means you need to stay standing.
  • I wrestled Division One on a team with a national champion and I can say Vox is more than correct in his assertions. A wrestler's only advantage is his strength and physical ability to take some abuse and crush a guy ONE ON ONE on the ground. But wrestling in a bar or street fight is a no-win situation. You have to strike and stay on your feet. You never want to end up on the ground.
  • I disagree with some of what Vox pushes, especially on religion etc (and on Kenpo.. depending on the style). He is absolutely correct on this. Having done martial arts for many years and been in many confrontations he is pretty much on point on this topic. Wrestling rarely puts forth real-world situations and realities.
  • He is correct. BJJ is "fake," that is,  it takes place within a structure and it is effective within that structure. The GIF shown early on proves that grappling on the ground in a real fight opens you up to being crushed by someones mother. There'a a reason Kano emphasized throws.
The strangest thing about this situation has been the way that triggered Roganites and Brazilian Cuddle Puddlers keep demanding that I prove the truth of my experiences and claiming that my observations are somehow invalid if I don't post a video of me physically harming people with my magical martial arts skills. Do they really not grasp the irony of the fact that they are fans of a UFC COMMENTATOR who talks about this subject all the time despite having no personal experience of either ring-fighting or real fighting?

My comments, observations, and opinions are either on point or they are not, regardless of whether you believe my colorful story about beating up 15 leprechauns who rode in together on a giant green-maned unicorn with an ancient Native American martial art I learned from the tribal shaman.

And this video of Sakuraba absolutely destroying the best that the Gracies had to offer demonstrates very clearly the fundamental weakness of building your attack plan around a ground game. Look how utterly stupid and helpless both Hoyce and Renzo Gracie are with Sakuraba standing over them, just deciding where he's going to stomp on them next.

This comment sums it up well:

how does that work then?
"I lay on the floor and get the shit kicked out of me."
not sure this bjj works to be honest.

Labels: ,

92 Comments:

Blogger Remonstrances January 10, 2019 5:55 AM  

I think that I am a good bit less intelligent than many of the commenters here and on the videos, but I sometimes have to wonder whether most people actually listen to the actual words coming out of someone's mouth, or just sort of mentally construct what they think someone is saying and reply to that.

Blogger Rigby Fenton IV January 10, 2019 6:05 AM  

Vox: Your thoughts on what works in a rules-based MMA environment vs real-world street fights is a good example of Taleb's "ludic fallacy." This bouncer agrees, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJqDC-JTtSQ

Blogger The Observer January 10, 2019 6:06 AM  

I sometimes have to wonder whether most people actually listen to the actual words coming out of someone's mouth, or just sort of mentally construct what they think someone is saying and reply to that.

My guess is that they've built a good chunk, if not the whole of their identity on their martial art, and any criticism of it is experienced as an attack on themselves.

Blogger VD January 10, 2019 6:10 AM  

they've built a good chunk, if not the whole of their identity on their martial art

Or more likely, on the martial art they like to think they know all about from watching UFC. I doubt any actual BJJ practitioner is going to be blind to the obvious weak points of his style. The various weak points of the different styles is the whole point of MIXED martial arts in the first place.

Blogger Bernardo Tavares January 10, 2019 6:23 AM  

"Being able to execute take downs and know how to get back up if you get down is very important. Vox made some good points. Grapplers stop being triggered. 1 on 1 the grappler will most likely win. Anything other than that you need to be as mobile as possible which means you need to stay standing."

For better and worse I have never been in real world fights. But shouldn't this shit be kind of obvious? Being in a stale situation with an opponent on the floor when there are a lot more surrounding you is pretty stupid.
Hell, video games that are brawl fests are criticized by serious players when the AI doesn't approach while you grapple a single enemy.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira January 10, 2019 6:29 AM  

>lying on his back being kicked by a Japanese man
Now I'm 100% certain, Brazilians are not Portuguese.

Blogger Peter Gent January 10, 2019 6:33 AM  

High ground has always been the best place to be...forever.

Blogger The Cooler January 10, 2019 6:36 AM  

I doubt any actual BJJ practitioner is going to be blind to the obvious weak points of his style.

The Gracie's sure were. Until Royce stopped blowing through everybody.

Blogger The Cooler January 10, 2019 6:41 AM  

*Gracies

Blogger Bilroy January 10, 2019 6:46 AM  

As a one stripe white belt in BJJ I'm personally not triggered. I wouldn't even say i have much of an advantage in a controlled 1-on-1, no-holds-barred against an untrained opponent. But i will continue to do BJJ because, as Vox says, it's still a good thing to do.

Blogger staff January 10, 2019 6:58 AM  

"... beating up 15 leprechauns who rode in together on a giant green-maned unicorn ..."

You should pray for forgiveness. Poor leprechauns who never harm anyone!

Blogger JACIII January 10, 2019 7:04 AM  

Remonstrances wrote:I think that I am a good bit less intelligent than many of the commenters here and on the videos, but I sometimes have to wonder whether most people actually listen to the actual words coming out of someone's mouth, or just sort of mentally construct what they think someone is saying and reply to that.



A lot of it is more among the commentators than toward the host. It's like the game comic fans play when arguing which character would win against which or star wars fans arguing the death star would destroy the enterprise. They arbitrarily pick a side and start in.

But there is still a boat load of
strawmanning.

Blogger Dirtnapninja January 10, 2019 7:14 AM  

Medieval and Renn era Europe had combat grappling systems laid out in manuscripts. They went by names such as Kampfringen and Abrazare. There is some groundwork, but not much. The emphasis is on breaking joints and throwing to the ground. Make no mistake, the techniques were absolutely vicious. The same with the arts such as Kumiuchi that became jujutsu. The fact is, you cant pull side control on a pollaxe.

Blogger Emmett Fitz-Hume January 10, 2019 7:24 AM  

Remonstrances wrote:I think that I am a good bit less intelligent than many of the commenters here and on the videos, but I sometimes have to wonder whether most people actually listen to the actual words coming out of someone's mouth, or just sort of mentally construct what they think someone is saying and reply to that.




Many of the dustups and object lesson that happen here usually revolve around this. VD is very, very precise in his statements. And the people triggered by whatever he says are usually not very precise in their thoughts. Or at least they aren't precise when VD decides to comment on one of their darlings.

If VD writes or says something that triggers you, its always best to stop, calm TFD and reread. Repeat as needed. And get a dictionary. Since the leftist culture has subsumed or subverted many words and concepts and 'redifned' them, sometimes so insidiously, people never realized it.

Precision in thought, both in order and detail, is paramount. It seems every week, we get an object lesson on that around here.

Blogger Moritz Krämer January 10, 2019 7:27 AM  

I did BJJ for about a year. The only guys that gained anything valuable were the riot cips. This is for two reasons:
a) They wear armor armor so you can't really punch them.
b) they have to go to ground and restrain people cos kicking them in the head is bad optics

Blogger Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) January 10, 2019 7:32 AM  

an ancient Native American martial art I learned from the tribal shaman.

I smell a potentially lucrative business here, should you ever want to move to Sedona.

Blogger RobertDWood January 10, 2019 7:34 AM  

If a no experience 30ish man who does keep in shape wants to start training in something useful, what would he start with?

Blogger Harambe January 10, 2019 7:42 AM  

Fun bonus fact: that arm bar Sakuraba used against the Gracie boys was the same arm bar his coach used to beat Grampaw Gracie many moons ago. It was a very obvious FU to the entire family.

Blogger Harambe January 10, 2019 7:44 AM  

*It's called the Kimura

Blogger NO GOOGLES January 10, 2019 7:45 AM  

@17
Boxing or Kickboxing. Muay Thai is good too. Wrestling/BJJ isn't useless, but it's useful in far fewer real world situations. One of the situations it IS useful in is subduing one person - say something trying to harm themselves or bent on doing something stupid.

What Vox said is not even close to controversial. Of course you don't want to be on the ground grappling 1 on 1 in a street fight - street fights can start off as 1v1 but unless there's only two people around someone else will inevitably join in. And if they get to join in by waiting for you to go to ground, then soccer kicking you in the head while you're busy trying to pull guard against someone else - all the worse for you.

Blogger NO GOOGLES January 10, 2019 7:51 AM  

Also, I really dislike BJJ competitions for similar reasons: almost all of them ban leglocks (at least most of them like heel hooks, calf slicers, etc), slamming, and strikes. In reality, ALL of those techniques are CRUCIAL to any real world situation where you might actually have to grapple.

It's evolved to be similar to Olympic fencing. In fencing, you will see SO MANY double points (where both fencers hit each other at almost the same time) even though originally that was heavily penalized. Fencing was supposed to originally be about training swordsman to hit WITHOUT getting hit because in a real world swordfight if you trade thrusts, it's very possible you both die. Modern fencing has devolved into "who can hit 1/25th of a second before their opponent" instead of parrying or avoiding the thrust, then riposte.

At least boxing is still REALLY useful in a real world fight. That's my sperg rant for the year.

Blogger Harambe January 10, 2019 7:51 AM  

Boxing is fantastic because of the way it is taught. There simply is no pure striking art that comes close. Muay Thai is good because it is very much the same as boxing, but with elbows and kicks. I would still say Boxing is a better fighting style because you are more assured of actually learning to fight AND taking part in competitions with good opponents, instead of just getting really good exercise.

Blogger James Dixon January 10, 2019 8:05 AM  

> how does that work then?
"I lay on the floor and get the shit kicked out of me."
not sure this bjj works to be honest.

A very fair summation.

> Poor leprechauns who never harm anyone!

You need to actually meet some leprechauns before you can say that. :)

> If a no experience 30ish man who does keep in shape wants to start training in something useful, what would he start with?

A gun. Then the hand to hand weapon of your choice. Only then unarmed combat. Remember, there is no such thing as a fair fight. The others here know a lot more about all of these than I do.

Blogger SouthRon January 10, 2019 8:12 AM  

Gracie laying on his back trying to kick Sakuraba is like watching a child fight.

It's the kinda crap one of my brothers pulled when he decided to take a poke at our mom and our father about took his head off. I watched the man destroy multi-dan experts from different MA backgrounds and my brother thought he was going to lay on his back and grapple or kick at him. It ended when she screamed for help and I put the fool in a lock while he was focused on our dad.

So yeah, wrassling kinda works until another party joins in.

Blogger John Doe03526 January 10, 2019 8:12 AM  

I know very little about martial arts. But it seems like lying on your back is not a good defensive position.

Blogger Guitar Man January 10, 2019 8:16 AM  

My instructor, Andy Main, has often said that outside the gym he's just another man on the street. This coming from a guy who's a former Pancrase Champion, BJJ blackbelt, and professional MMA fighter.

Blogger Bogey January 10, 2019 8:18 AM  

That video reminds me of Ali vs Inoki.

Blogger The Cooler January 10, 2019 8:22 AM  

A gun. Then the hand to hand weapon of your choice. Only then unarmed combat.

If the working definition of "Real Fight" is "more than one person attacking you" then this is absolutely correct.

I don't give a fuck if one is the baddest man to ever walk the planet, you're virtually never going to successfully defend yourself against 3 people; 2 maybe, but you'd better know something or you're just prolonging the beating.

Gun or run, actually.

Blogger Uncle John's Band January 10, 2019 8:30 AM  

If you're outnumbered, the ultimate goal is to get away, which means not being surrounded, which means staying standing. It's distance control. You give up space because you're forced to, not by choice.

Rule sets are everything. The unified rules of MMA - the UFC rules - disallow soccer kicks to downed opponents and 12-6 elbows. This is a huge advantage for grapplers

Blogger Paul Sacramento January 10, 2019 8:34 AM  

BJJ address ONE part of the fight game, period.
It does not take into account weapons, the environment, multiple attackers, etc.
In all fairness though, NO SINGLE MA does that very well.
Sure some hit on them more than others, krav Maga for example BUT they also tend to not focus on full contact as much as they should.
MMA is a sport and is becoming more and more sport specific ( not a good thing).
Cross training AND Cross testing is still the bets way to go.
In my 40 years of MA training ( Kyokushin, Judo, BJJ, Kung Fu, Kali, Kenjutsu, etc) and my tim e in the military has taught me that there is NO ONE SYSTEM that has the answers to ALL the problems.

Blogger Guitar Man January 10, 2019 8:36 AM  

I don't give a fuck if one is the baddest man to ever walk the planet, you're virtually never going to successfully defend yourself against 3 people; 2 maybe, but you'd better know something or you're just prolonging the beating.

Right on. And no one that I know who practices BJJ or MMA has any illusions of being able to take on multiple defenders at once. The Tap Out couch fighters who yell "STAND UP!" at the TV when watching the UFC usually have this conflated attitude about their ability to take on the entire bar in a fight.

Then we have those Aikido warriors who will always say that their particular art form is too dangerous to practice in real life because multiple bodies will end up dead on the floor.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora January 10, 2019 8:39 AM  

There was a BJJ trainer on Rogan once who pretty much embarrassed Joe in terms of his knowledge on BJJ. Thing is though, the guy described it as a game. He didn't even try pretending otherwise. He was breaking down the wedges and moves like a game of chesse, I believe he even referred to it as a game.

Blogger Damelon Brinn January 10, 2019 8:40 AM  

I sometimes have to wonder whether most people actually listen to the actual words coming out of someone's mouth

They don't really. With text, they skim through the words and form impressions from words and phrases. With video/audio, it's the same except that things like body language and tone override the words even more. And rarely do they then reflect on the context and the speaker and ask themselves whether the impression might have been incorrect.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora January 10, 2019 8:43 AM  

Odd editing on my last post led to a redundant sentence. Anyway, the guy's name was John Danaher for anyone who wants to look it up to watch it.

Blogger Guitar Man January 10, 2019 8:45 AM  

Look into an MMA gym that has a package deal. So you can attend grappling, striking, and kicking classes. You think you're in shape now, but you'll be at a different level after some training.

Blogger The Cooler January 10, 2019 8:48 AM  

this conflated attitude about their ability to take on the entire bar in a fight.

Funny you should say. I was just speaking with some people last evening about The Delusion Factor and how it will apply when CWII (whatever) goes hot. One of the things rarely considered is the length of time it's going to take for the nads to self-sort from the Actual Chads now that everyone's Rambo and shits Chuck Norris nuggets. We ended up putting it at about a month.

Blogger Guitar Man January 10, 2019 8:48 AM  

@34 John Danaher wasn't necessarily embarrassing. The average black belt like Rogan could never even begin to touch the knowledge that Danaher has. Danaher's DDS has revolutionized sports BJJ, and some of the death squad are now making their way into MMA competitions. Gordon Ryan will be an absolute killer once he starts competing MMA.

Blogger McJibblits January 10, 2019 8:52 AM  

I was a pretty good high school wrestler. I do BJJ for fun nowadays, and to keep in shape. In my limited fighting experience, the "one on one" fights where wrestling helped were almost always avoidable.

The fights where I took a bigger guy down and got soccer kicked (once in the head and once in the ribs) we're less avoidable.

Blogger English Tom January 10, 2019 8:57 AM  

@No Googles

I was a football hooligan in the 1980's. Whilst not trained in anything (I did spend lots of time on a punchbag), anyone who hit the floor got an immediate stomping, and usually by way more than one person. Stay on your feet and trade.
Of course, having a nasty weapon on you is always a good force multiplier.

Blogger Guitar Man January 10, 2019 9:01 AM  

@38 you damn wrestlers piss me off on the mat!

Blogger John Best January 10, 2019 9:15 AM  

Eddie Bravo talking some sense and then Joe Rogan just ruins it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzdZodt7jY

Blogger JAG January 10, 2019 9:18 AM  

Bogey wrote:That video reminds me of Ali vs Inoki.

Inoki was forced to fight that way because of the ridiculous restrictions placed on him as the fight date drew closer. He most likely destroys Ali if he were allowed to use all his skills. As it was, he did severe damage to Ali's legs.

Blogger LibertyPortraits January 10, 2019 9:18 AM  

The Sakuraba video is much appreciated. Had no idea. I guess fighting even has propaganda. It's like growing up watching martial arts movies makes one think the west had no martial arts, but sword fighting manuals, and the whole Greek pankration show the west had a long history of its own martial arts. It probably didn't stick around because of how early the Europeans adopted gunpowder, whereas in the East their traditions of martial arts would stay around much later due to the late adoption of mass gunpowder. I dunno, just talking out of my ass here, but bjj is clearly nothing more than a tool, and like any tool, you can't use just one to fix everything.

Blogger stevo January 10, 2019 9:22 AM  

Slightly ot but I heard of a CIA training manual which gives instructions on how to fight a dog. Apparently it is possible to fight off one dog but as soon as there's more than one all bets are off.

Blogger Dirk Manly January 10, 2019 9:28 AM  

Sadly, this is the hand to hand combatives system being trained by the US Army since about 2005.

OK for Army of Occupation duty like Iraq, when any hand-to-hand will be under circumstance that your buddies are overseeing the whole thing with loaded weapons. Not so good if you're using it because a company of enemy soldiers is attempting to overrun your position.
Not so good for

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 9:30 AM  

A medical student I knew was a big farm boy, 6'5" and easily 250 lbs of real-world muscle, and a black belt in karate.

His clinical rotations included time spent in inner-city Chicago hospitals. He bought a gun (a 38 Special snubbie, I believe) for self-defense. He said he didn't have anywhere near the time to keep up his H2H skills, and that he knew that no amount of strength and H2H skill could defend against serious injury or death from a knife or a gun.

Unless one lives in Japan or other utterly disarmed society, all the discussion about H2H sounds to me like planning on "winning" in what Rory Miller calls a Monkey Dance. I'm with him, that this is an invitation to a long stay at the crowbar motel.

Get a reliable, small, light gun (it's a crowded product niche now.) Train often, preferably at a club that allows non-static shooting/training and use of a real-life holster. Then act like actually having to USE the gun is only slightly less catastrophic than being caught without it, because giving a crook $5,000 in cash would probably be cheaper than justifiably shooting him. And yes, this means forever eschewing the bar scene (or any other zone of heightened risk for conflict), which probably means you'll never see "combat" at all.

My 2 cents for what little it's worth.

Blogger Silly but True January 10, 2019 9:32 AM  

The police academy training crowd control segment used to involve essentially one classmate putting on body armor and getting curb-stomped by the rest of the class; no it was not real fighting and no one generally got hurt but point was to at least allow trainees to experience the disorientation and loss of control when you got overwhelmed.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 9:36 AM  

I also favor OC foam (e.g., Sabre.) The 18-foot range version. Most states treat displaying a concealed gun the same as shooting it, and two things every concealed carrier should avoid: (1) an adversary getting to him, so that he might have his own gun used on him and (2) using or even displaying the gun to prevent losing a fist-fight. Fists and feet annually kill more Americans than rifles of all type, but shooting "an unarmed assailant" is a nightmare-world of legal jeopardy.

Blogger Arthur Isaac January 10, 2019 10:17 AM  

Sakuraba was a breath of fresh air.

The and Quinton Jackson dropping "Shogun" on his head to defeat the triangle.

Blogger Duke Norfolk January 10, 2019 10:24 AM  

@1 That's exactly what almost everybody does, almost every time, in all kinds of communication. It's quite frustrating to be a third party to this, watching as two people talk past each over and over again. Happens a lot in these comments. Much worse in other venues.

Blogger ADS January 10, 2019 10:28 AM  

Any serious practitioner of self-defense focuses on the concealed carry pistol. Even with a heavy cover garment (winter coat) I can reliably clear the holster and put accurate shots on target in under three seconds - and I'm just a regular guy. I don't give a fuck if you're a 20th level ninja with a quintuple black belt, you won't be fighting for shit with two 9mm hollow points in your chest and one in your face. All the ju-jitsu skills in the world won't save you from two dudes with tire irons beating the shit out of you, but a pistol will. Almost nobody in the world would win a 3v1 unarmed fight against serious assailants; my 17+1 capacity pistol is quite capable of doing just that. Charging the shooter in a mass shooting or terrorist event gets you shot and dropped; a pistol lets you engage from range at an opportune moment.

The primary value of martial arts for self defense is threefold:
1) Teaching you how to get hit in the face and work through the pain, shock, and damage to continue fighting, and how to fall correctly
2) Empty hand skills for creating distance to draw and fire
3) Incredible cardio conditioning in a high-aggression, high-adrenaline environment

Everything else is sports. Doesn't make it bad, but don't confuse 1v1 in a ring with rules for actual fighting. Best way to win a fight is don't be there for one. Stay away from crowds.

Blogger camcleat January 10, 2019 10:28 AM  

@28

"Gun or run"

Or, gun AND run-most-of-the-time.

@46

"Then act like actually having to USE the gun is only slightly less catastrophic than being caught without it, because giving a crook $5,000 in cash would probably be cheaper than justifiably shooting him. And yes, this means forever eschewing the bar scene (or any other zone of heightened risk for conflict), which probably means you'll never see "combat" at all."

This.

When talking about carrying, "mindset" is often discussed. Lots of guys like the mindset points of "Hells yeah I can kill a perp."

Then they get a bit quieter on the topic of "A lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation."

I like to tell folks that are thinking about getting and daily carrying a gun the following two additional points:

(1) If you're going to carry at all, carry always. Don't try to predict when you might need it or not. I like the old saying "If you think you are going to need a gun to go there, why would you go there?"

(2) A gun is not a magic talisman. It won't solve all your problems for you.

Blogger Bogey January 10, 2019 10:31 AM  

you're virtually never going to successfully defend yourself against 3 people

Youtube 3 vs 1

Blogger Gunnar Thalweg January 10, 2019 10:42 AM  

Situational awareness. De-escalation skills (including allowing others to de-escalate). Looking crazy. Understanding balance. Escape routes. Willingness and ability to take one punch.

If you're really stuck ... and I only did this once, running into an Asian gang in Philadelphia ... literally act crazy, talking to yourself, rocking back and forth as you walk, as if you don't even see them. Always keep the whole gang to one side of you if at all possible and have a place to retreat.

And carry Mace. The goal is to use it and escape.

The issue with martial arts is that when you get an adrenaline rush in a real fight, without lots of training, you revert to instinct and you may be unable to do precise movements. I have been unable to do the fine movements to make a cell call when that adrenaline hits. (The situation involved a bear, in that case.)

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have never gotten into a life-threatening hand-to-hand situation ... but I can imagine.

For men who have been in lots of real-life fights (like bikers), I have found they are usually willing to de-escalate if they don't perceive a threat.

Blogger Ronin F9 January 10, 2019 10:45 AM  

MMA is a sport and its practitioners train to win sporting matches. It is fine for what it is but it is not self defense. It doesn't teach strategy or psychology of self defense. It doesn't teach weapons use or defense or to face multiple attackers. If you want to learn self defense then that is what you have to study. Personally I like the John Wick approach - heavy emphasis on close quarters shooting, throws, joint manipulations, and high mobility. The key is to end the encounter very quickly. Trading blows with someone is not effective unless you are One Punch Man (not to mention putting your bloody knuckles near a stranger's mouth is a good way to get Hepatitis or God knows what else) and rolling around on the ground is just plain stupid.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 10:46 AM  

Carrying a gun should make any thoughtful person incredibly confrontation-averse. Is aversion to confrontation unmanly?

Does aptitude for unarmed combat have the same effect? My short answer is no, but perhaps all I've encountered are those whose martial arts training instills a swagger rather than humility.

The last thing I'd want is to be singled-out as the "tough guy," if for no other reason than, for a savvy criminal or psycho bent on mayhem, I'm the first one who catches a bullet. This is somehow a corollary to the adage that every poker game has a patsy, and if you can't tell which of the players fills this role, it's you.

Blogger Hammerli280 January 10, 2019 10:48 AM  

@17: Quality of instruction is more important than precisely what style. I'm a big advocate of traditional Okinawan karate, but you need an instructor who knows what he's doing.

Tip: If they can't explain what is going on in a kata, what the move DO, look elsewhere.

Concur that if you can do so legally, ALWAYS wear a sidearm. But remember that superior judgement/avoidance is your first line of defense.

Blogger Ilk in Training January 10, 2019 10:48 AM  

It's also good to remember that Bruce Lee carried a .357 for personal defense while in the States.

Blogger Mad Dad January 10, 2019 10:51 AM  

I practice BJJ and will agree with Vox. In the proverbial 1:1 street-fight fantasy, even the weakest of soy is going to bite or scratch you while you're cuddling with it, infecting you with some malignant plague that haunts you long after it's cries from a broken shoulder fade into the night.

Blogger The Cooler January 10, 2019 10:56 AM  

Youtube 3 vs 1

Done. It was all pretty funny. Was that the point?

Blogger Tars Tarkusz January 10, 2019 11:17 AM  

High school wrestling is a pretty good weapon in your arsenal. I have seen at least 2 fights where lack of wrestling ability caused them to get their asses kicked. One of them was between my best friend and another friend. My best friend was a very good street fighter, the other friend was strong as an Ox and not a very good fighter. Though there was a large crowd, nobody jumped in. My other friend ran into my best friend like a linebacker, buried his head and just slammed my best friend against the wall like 10 times. Then he threw him on the ground and started wailing on him. After that it got broken up. I was in quite a few fights myself and one thing I can say is that they are never pretty and rarely fair.
I was once in a fight with a guy who was a much better fighter than me, but I had a pretty decent size and weight advantage. I was keeping him away from me with straight lefts and about 50 blacks came out of a bus and began attacking both of us plus the few people watching it.
Of course, these were when I was a teenager. Today the sucker-punch of a complete stranger for no apparent reason or being swarmed by crowds of "teens" is more likely than some guy challenging you to a fight. This is surprisingly common.

Blogger camcleat January 10, 2019 11:22 AM  

@57

"But remember that superior judgement/avoidance is your first line of defense."

Am I correct in sensing self defense discussions generally coalesce into two distinct groups?

1. Those that really understand the above quoted point.

2. Those that think their MA, BJJ or other, or gun or tactical tomahawk or whatever WILL get through any scenario.

It strikes me that some of it boils down to maturity and/or wisdom.

I've never trained BJJ. Not commenting about how mindset is taught and I'm not trying to condemn the all practitioners. Just commenting about a subset of BJJ students - those that disagreed with Vox's point re: real world vs controlled sport.

Blogger widlast washere January 10, 2019 11:31 AM  

the best option is avoiding trouble. When that is not an option you need to have the situational awareness to be able to at some point get away. If that involves hurting one or more opponents you need to have the skills to do so. That is where most fail, they either don't have the skills or will to actually damage their opponent. Sadly, most martial arts teachers don't teach their pupils to do real damage (for obvious reasons).
Stay fit, learn a martial art or three, learn how to do real harm, and pay attention to your surroundings 24/7.

Blogger James Dixon January 10, 2019 11:31 AM  

> Does aptitude for unarmed combat have the same effect?

Aptitude for? No. Proper training and/or experience? Yes.

You're almost never going to escape a serious fight without getting hit, probably several times. Getting hit hurts, often more the next day than at the time. If you're a normal person, it's not something you really want to repeat on a regular basis (note to all, Vox isn't a "normal person").

The show Kung Fu actually go this correct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2fq9K1yE4k

Blogger camcleat January 10, 2019 11:41 AM  

@56

"Is aversion to confrontation unmanly?"

Not in a world where men respect each other in the sense of "he can really hurt me."

One of the reasons the SJW's are so confrontation-seeking is because they fear no consequence. This is upside down.

The Code Duello led to a lot of apologies. This was not out of rampant cowardice of the day but because sometimes backing off and admitting your were wrong was the honorable thing to do.

Not having a healthy apprehension of confrontation with other men is often labeled a gamma trait.

Blogger Patrick Kelly January 10, 2019 11:47 AM  

RE: Aikido

It is understandable for Vox to recommend Aikido for an absolute beginner, no experience with any martial arts, for fundamental principles, like balance, foot-work, basic holds locks and throws.

I have no experience with Aikido other than participating in one complementery kids class (I was an adult, but this dojo required everyone to start in the same classes as the kid. Maybe some kinda' humility building mind game or something, I dunno'). All we did was learn a new way to walk back and forth along a line on the floor, and a drill where the instructor would raise a wooden sword, and we had to move past him without getting our ass swatted.

That's a good start. Maybe there are fight-club level Aikido schools somewhere, likely not in the US, maybe Japan.

Vox is not recommending it as a complete, comprehensive fighting method.

"But remember that superior judgement/avoidance is your first line of defense."

Indeed. Avoidable fights begin when this fails.


Blogger Guitar Man January 10, 2019 11:50 AM  

If you've ever seen those ridiculous bullshido videos on YT, chances are it is the post-war soft aikido that's so prevalent in the West and East. Find something that has progressive resistance if you want to train in a martial art.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 11:52 AM  

James, I can't escape the view that all of this discussion rests on a bimodal view of violence.

Some see physical conflict as part of the maintenance of social hierarchy, what Rory Miller calls "Social Violence." Others see physical conflict as Miller's "Anti-social Violence" almost exclusively.

I fall into the second camp. There's nothing sporting or mutually-respecting about violence. If I "lose a fight," that puts me entirely at the mercy of my assailant, no different than is a small woman who is dragged into a vacant house to be raped...hoping that murder isn't the second course on the menu. To me, this means "losing a fight" is not an option, it is to be avoided by any means up to and including blinding, deafening, maiming or killing my adversary.

My entire comment line may be misplaced. VD's comments on this read to me as valuing the preparation for success in social-violence events, which for me simply don't exist. If someone tries to establish a Monkey Dance with me I'd simply back away. An attempt to prevent my retreat would immediately escalate it to anti-social violence, and I'd respond without restraint. The law would sort it out afterward.

The real questions are whether being prepared for social violence is:
1. beneficial in non-conflict areas (VD clearly indicates yes.)
2. beneficial in anti-social conflict. I think the answer is mostly no.

I still carry the scar from a sucker-punch I never saw coming. Getting sutures without anesthetic is a memorable experience. Perhaps this and other experiences render me unable to refrain from commenting on the subject, but it's a new area for me to cultivate silence.

Blogger JohnofAustria January 10, 2019 12:00 PM  

I've never understood how pure BJJ guys would deal with the guy they're trying to grapple headbutting them in the nose, sticking a finger in their eye, or just trying to dribble their head on the concrete like it was a meat basketball. Pretty sure you'd have to drop your entire line of attack to deal with it and just disengage the hold.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 12:04 PM  

@65 Among the many things that amaze me these days is the nonchalance with which so many people antagonize others (especially people like me.)

From women using Family Court to torment their ex-husbands, to a manager who once spent 45 minutes insulting me (in a naked effort to get me to quit), never once does it seem to intrude on these people that they are basing their continued existence on Earth entirely on the self-control of the most dangerous animal on Planet Earth, the only creature who is capable of killing at a distance.

A long period lacking Nature's normal consequences has induced in the weak a mistaken impression that the strong are punching bags. Leftism is a cult that celebrates the victory of the weak over the strong, having mistaken noblesse oblige and the restraint-of-the-strong for timidity.

When this long, highly-unusual period ends, restraint will be among its first causalities. The vicious weak will rediscover the value of caution (those who survive the score-settling, that is.)

Blogger Tars Tarkusz January 10, 2019 12:10 PM  

widlast washere wrote:best option is avoiding trouble. When that is not an option you need to have the situational awareness to be able to at some point get away.
Most people wait far too long before trying to deescalate. They box themselves and their opponent into a situation where face cannot be saved.

camcleat wrote:One of the reasons the SJW's are so confrontation-seeking is because they fear no consequence. This is upside down.

Well, SJWs are only confrontational when and where physical violence is highly unlikely. Their cowardice is why so much of it is online, at work or church etc.

IMHO, a lot of true-believer SJWs are so dysfunctional because they were bullied and felt powerless. SJW-ism gives them the upper hand and the social permission to be a vicious bully. They cannot handle any power at all. They have epic fantasies of paying back the people that have wronged them, or those like them. But they are physical cowards.

Blogger Patrick Kelly January 10, 2019 12:24 PM  

re: women vs. men

There is a young woman MMA competitor who works out at our dojo. She likes to spar with one of the smaller, teenage boys because "after we spar it makes all the kicks and punches by other women feel like nothing."

Blogger James Dixon January 10, 2019 12:42 PM  

> There's nothing sporting or mutually-respecting about violence.

Well, football players obviously don't agree. And I don't think there's anything wrong with two grown men settling things with a "friendly" man on man confrontation as long as their both agreeable and stop short of long term damage.

As far as I can tell, Vox's comments about respect, etc., largely deal with this category. But I don't want to put words in his mouth.

> To me, this means "losing a fight" is not an option, it is to be avoided by any means up to and including blinding, deafening, maiming or killing my adversary.

Oh, I agree. But see above.

> The real questions are whether being prepared for social violence is:
1. beneficial in non-conflict areas (VD clearly indicates yes.)
2. beneficial in anti-social conflict. I think the answer is mostly no.

In your terms being used to social violence increases your confidence and ability to deal with people. I don't know about you, but I can't count the number of times in my life people have tried to intimidate me with casual threats of violence. It probably works with some people.

It is beneficial in anti-social conflicts in the sense of you knowing your own capabilities and limitations and thus being prepared to handle such situations.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 1:05 PM  

I don't know about you, but I can't count the number of times in my life people have tried to intimidate me with casual threats of violence. It probably works with some people.

I cannot recall ever being casually threatened for intimidation purposes, but perhaps it's because I'm 99th-plus percentile in ht/wt (very little fat) and have been since 8th grade. For most of my adult life I was/am stronger than any but dedicated Gym Rats.

I played a little football, but didn't like giving others equal opportunity to hurt me. Some people are masochists, too, and now that I think about it, you've nailed the gulf between our views.

I don't see football as violent. I reserve that term for actions that are intended to hurt me (or threaten it) when I didn't volunteer for the interaction. In my little inner world, the proper response to such is capital punishment (with honorary Darwin Award entry) at that moment in time.

There are lots of people alive today simply because it's against the law to kill them. To me, no game is violence and no violence is a game. Obviously, I misunderstand those whose premises (map of reality from which they navigate their lives) so differ from mine.

Blogger chronoblip January 10, 2019 1:53 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:There are lots of people alive today simply because it's against the law to kill them.

Even stupidity isn't allowed to kill anyone anymore.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 1:59 PM  

@75, Nature's culling delayed is not Nature's culling eliminated.

Perhaps foolishly, I cling to the notion that it's simply building up behind a metaphorical dam, and that when that dam does inevitably break, all those lessons-unlearned by the masses of people will cause even a hint of ignorance or stupidity to be fatal.

If it's better to learn hard lessons young, when the consequences are small, what happens when those lessons are delayed until the consequences are existential?

Rabbit stew.

Blogger James Dixon January 10, 2019 2:07 PM  

> ...but perhaps it's because I'm 99th-plus percentile in ht/wt (very little fat) and have been since 8th grade. For most of my adult life I was/am stronger than any but dedicated Gym Rats.

That's probably why, yes. While I'm just under 6', the most I ever weighed up to middle age was 140 lbs.

Blogger James Dixon January 10, 2019 2:09 PM  

> Even stupidity isn't allowed to kill anyone anymore.

They try, but the don't succeed. Just recently there was a robber shot at a Popeye's in Texas (his mom claimed his gun wasn't loaded, as if that mattered) and an 18 year old who tried to take a 30 mile an hour turn at 116 mph in a Tesla S.

Blogger Ivan Throne January 10, 2019 3:07 PM  

Vox is entirely correct.

All I need to say.

Regards,

Ivan

Blogger bara January 10, 2019 3:09 PM  

>which probably means you'll never see "combat" at all

That is a win in my book, staying alive and well is the goal.

Blogger Patrick Kelly January 10, 2019 3:16 PM  

"I cannot recall ever being casually threatened for intimidation purposes, but perhaps it's because I'm 99th-plus percentile in ht/wt (very little fat) and have been since 8th grade. For most of my adult life I was/am stronger than any but dedicated Gym Rats."

I'm on the other end of that scale, and have dealt with larger bullies all my life. As a kid I had some foolish false bravado to compensate, but sometimes when the hair would go up on the back of my neck I had enough sense to avoid trouble.

Having some good friends around to watch my back helped. Being on a wrestling team provided a tribe for that, and no matter how much they teased or picked on me, others knew not to or they would answer to members of the team, much larger, stronger, and skilled with not only wrestling but also judo and boxing.

If you're not much of a fighter (like me), it's good to hang with close friends who are. And hang out where none of you are likely to have to fight. Step 1 in self defense is always awareness and avoid-fu.

Some western movie:

"I see you're carrying a gun mister. Do you foresee trouble?"

"No, if I could foresee trouble I wouldn't need a gun"

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 4:39 PM  

@81 I guess I never forget an old adage: "Beware the small man. He'll pull out a gun or knife and kill you."

I guess I live in a different world than most folks. I assume that every man I meet is far more dangerous than a 400 lb tiger. It doesn't matter if he weighs 120 lbs soaking wet. All men should be respected as killer apes, each and every one of which can use Col. Colt's equalizer with skill if trained (and even a tiny woman can stick a steak knife between your ribs if you're not looking.)

This bullshit where someone thinks he can swagger around like he's swinging a 9" codpiece just because he can bench 400 lbs or kick someone in the face with a spin-kick is inscrutable to me. There's a reason that serious military training spends little time on H2H and tons of time on weapons. What makes men most dangerous isn't how big, strong or MMA'd up they are, it's the deadliest weapon they can create, obtain and wield effectively. H2H stopped being foremost in the damned STONE AGE. Pick up a brick, a chair or a pool cue, for Pete's sake.

Chemical and Electrical Engineers and microbiologists should scare us all silly, second only to people who own their own 3-axis milling machines.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 10, 2019 4:43 PM  

PS:

Gun-phobe: "So, you carry a gun. What are you afraid of?"

Answer: "Not much. I carry a gun."

Or as an old acquaintance once said to coworkers who made fun of him for having an FFL and perusing wholesale gun advertisements in the breakroom: "I already got mine. What are you going to do if they outlaw purchases and you decide you NEED one?"

Blogger Tars Tarkusz January 10, 2019 5:37 PM  

Patrick Kelly wrote:and no matter how much they teased or picked on me, others knew not to or they would answer to members of the team, much larger, stronger, and skilled with not only wrestling but also judo and boxing.

You don't really need to be a beast to throw good punches. Speed, accuracy and technique, along with the aerobic training will rescue you from a lot of bullies. A very large man who does not know how to throw a punch will not be nearly as effective as a smaller man with very good technique.

Most people have no idea just how tiring fighting is and just how quickly you run out of steam if you are not used to it. Even teenagers will be winded and weak after as little as 2 minutes of an out and out brawl. Most cannot even last that long. I would assume that a HS wrestler is quite used to going all out for a minute or 2.

There is some kind of "rule" where you can output 70-80% for a very long time. This is not just fighting. Pretty much all athletic activities are like that. But, once you up that and push your all, you get weak and tired fairly quickly. Not 2 minutes like in fighting, but very quickly nonetheless. This is why joggers who regularly run 5 miles will become winded and sore after running all out for 2 city blocks.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf January 10, 2019 5:55 PM  

Great video! This is what made YT so wonderful back when it first started.

Comment from the video:
Gabriel seven
Who knew that BJJ is only as good as it is in UFC because fighters are basically forced to go to the ground or stand back until the ref stands the other back up. When the other fighter is allowed to kick the grounded opponent while still standing, it turns the tables pretty quick.

3 months ago
139 up

Blogger Meng Greenleaf January 10, 2019 6:11 PM  

@17
Weight training / strength training, daily cycling, swimming if possible. Then learn to carry and practice shooting. This should set you up for the coming festivities 🙂

Blogger English Tom January 10, 2019 6:22 PM  

@John of Austria

You forgot about teeth. There's nothing wrong with trying to bite someone's face off if the need arises.

Blogger El Diestro January 11, 2019 2:19 AM  

"My comments, observations, and opinions are either on point or they are not"

They are not. For example,

"Do they really not grasp the irony of the fact that they are fans of a UFC COMMENTATOR who talks about this subject all the time despite having no personal experience of either ring-fighting or real fighting?"

Rogan did fight in the ring, three times (kickboxing).

Other silly claims:

Wrestlers go for the waist, not the legs (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/04/strong-female-characters.html).

Spinning attacks don't work on real fighters.

Rogan lacks power in his kicks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sATOpTS7V8)

The counter to a "waist-grab" is a "neck-breaking lock".

Sakuraba--a ground fighter--beating the Gracies "demonstrates very clearly the fundamental weakness of building your attack plan around a ground game."

Blogger Harambe January 11, 2019 2:56 AM  

@88, did you actually watch the Sakuraba/Gracie fights? He kicks the shit out of each of them for most of the fight, then goes in for the submission when he feels like it. Which is in contrast to the Gracie approach of sticking their heads in the other guy's crotch as soon as the bell rings.

Blogger El Diestro January 11, 2019 3:12 AM  

@89, Sakuraba is my favorite fighter. I've seen all of his fights. He was able to kick the shit out of them because he was an extremely good freestyle wrestler and catch wrestler. He outwrestled them to put them on their backs, then beat on them top position, which is the entire point of wrestling as a martial art.

Besides, you're not describing all of the Gracie fights. The fight with Renzo was close before Saku locked on the submission, and he dominated position of Ryan but didn't do much damage.

Blogger God Emperor Memes January 11, 2019 6:24 AM  

Correct. As I have observed to others: "Most people do not hear what you say - they hear what they think you mean."

Blogger Eric Waite January 11, 2019 6:35 AM  

@26 Legit BMFs tend not to be braggarts. You'll usually only hear how badass they really are from other people.

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