ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2019 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Wednesday, February 27, 2019

Dangerous games

I'm not much bothered about the latest Kashmir flareup. It's pretty obvious that Pakistan wants to de-escalate the situation and has been retaliating in a very measured fashion:
On February 14 a suicide car bomb hit a police convoy in Pulwama in the Indian controlled part of Kashmir. The suicide bomber was a local man. The Pakistan based terrorist group Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) claimed responsibility and uploaded a video of the attacker.

General elections in India are due in May and the Hindu-fascist Indian government under Prime Minister Narendra Modi is under pressure. The incident in Kashmir led to violence of Modi followers against Kashmiri people. Pakistan denied any involvement in the incident and called for a joint investigation.

After the suicide attack Modi immediately threatened to retaliate against Pakistan. He did so yesterday. In an elaborate operation Indian fighter jets released stand-off weapons, purchased from Israel, against an alleged JeM training camp near Balakot. India made explicit that it hit a "non-military" target.

While the Indian jets did not enter Pakistan's airspace the target was within Pakistan's undisputed borders. Small scale ground combat between Indian and Pakistani at the line of control in Kashmir is nothing unusual. But the air attack exceed the limits both sides so far held to.

Pakistan saw the incident as a failure of its deterrence. India has about 140 nuclear weapons while Pakistan has about 100. Pakistan's conventional military is inferior to India's. It therefore follows a doctrine of asymmetric escalation which allows for nuclear strikes in response to conventional military attacks.

Pakistan could not leave the hit within its own borders without response. Not responding would have set a precedence and invite further Indian attacks. Earlier today two Pakistani J-17a jets flew into the airspace of Indian controlled Kashmir and released bombs against what its military claimed to be a "non military target":

Two rather antique Indian MIG-21 jets scrambled to chase the Pakistani fighter jets away. They were lured into the Pakistan controlled air space and both were shot down. Pakistan published pictures of one of the downed jets and claimed that the other one fell into an Indian controlled area. An Indian pilot ejected from his plane and was captured by Pakistani troops who had trouble to keep the locals from lynching him. The captured pilot was blindfolded and interrogated. He identified as Wing Commander Abhi Nandan, Service No: 27981, and did not respond to further questions. His father is said to be a retried Air Marshal of the Indian air force. The pilot now seems to be fine. He thanked the Pakistani military for rescuing him from the mob.
The fact that India is lying about having shot down a Pakistani jet is probably a good sign that they don't wish to genuinely escalate either. The Pakistanis would be well-advised to permit the Indian government to lie to its people about how bravely and fiercely it responded to the loss of its two obsolete MIGs.

But one wonders what sort of political ideology "Hindu-fascism" is supposed to be. Did they bring back the swastika?

Labels:

65 Comments:

Blogger sykes.1 February 27, 2019 11:05 AM  

Well, the Swastika is theirs, isn't it?

Blogger Dave February 27, 2019 11:10 AM  

Hindu-fascism

Apparently, it's a thing.

Blogger DJ | AMDG February 27, 2019 11:10 AM  

Fascist and Nationalist are synonymous...at least at CNN. Who knows what lens MoonOfAlabama uses.

Blogger Solon February 27, 2019 11:12 AM  

Probably borrow a lot of cues from the Sikhs.

I worked with a Sikh once. You... Do not mess with Sikhs. It's just not smart. Can't help but respect them for that.

Blogger Blume February 27, 2019 11:13 AM  

The evidence I have seen is that the swastika is to old to correctly be attributed to any one group. They basically find an older one with another group of people every couple decades.

Blogger Solon February 27, 2019 11:15 AM  

Atlantis origin of the swastika CT incoming, haha

Blogger Jack Amok February 27, 2019 11:16 AM  

But one wonders what sort of political ideology "Hindu-fascism" is supposed to be. Did they bring back the swastika?

Reporterette saw the swastika and assumed fascist? Well, that settles it, they definitely have to go back now.

But I assume this is just another facet of the dwindling US ability to project force. After 9/11, I think the US bluntly told India and Pakistan to cool it so we could blunder around Afghanistan without worrying about their antics.

And not to cross the streams with the last post, but it ain't a comforting thought two nations with average IQs in the low 80's have a bunch of nukes.

Blogger Dave February 27, 2019 11:24 AM  

but it ain't a comforting thought two nations with average IQs in the low 80's have a bunch of nukes.

All the more true it would appear if you're a "non-military" target.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 11:30 AM  

for the imaginative... few things would be more horrifying than hindu fascism.

Blogger Balkan Yankee February 27, 2019 11:37 AM  

Climate Change South Asian Style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVmI0tWrVGY

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother February 27, 2019 11:56 AM  

Hindu-fascist global domination: curry for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. All taste, no gyaan!!

Blogger Skyler the Weird February 27, 2019 11:57 AM  

If the Pakistanis were serious about hurting India there would be suicide bombers at Call Centers.

Blogger Jack Amok February 27, 2019 11:59 AM  

for the imaginative... few things would be more horrifying than hindu fascism.

Shiva...

Plus, having seen a couple of Bollywood action flicks, the Hindu-Fascist propaganda films would be truly awful.

Blogger Jack Amok February 27, 2019 12:01 PM  

If the Pakistanis were serious about hurting India there would be suicide bombers at Call Centers.

They tried, but when they called for directions, they got completely lost following them.

Blogger My 1 millionth internet profile February 27, 2019 12:19 PM  

@14 - - Yep, because "Larr-reee" told them he was with the IRS in Wash-ing-ton, Dee Cee.

stand-off weapons, purchased from Israel

Military hardware sales acquaint a man with strange bedfellows

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia February 27, 2019 12:20 PM  

The Hindus and the Pakis love to mix it up. 4 wars in the last 60 years, plus a bunch of skirmishes.

It's too bad we can't summarily sieze both side's nuclear weapons, and then they can go at it to their hearts content.

As I mentioned in another thread, the owner of this blog has/had a lot of contempt for Christopher Hitchens, but Hitch would always say that the partitioning of India was one of most horrible of post war decisions, which we in the West may one day pay for -- as we did, indirectly, on 9-11.

We can thank one of Britain's most notable diletanntes, Lord Louis Mountbatten, for the mess that whole area is in. (It's telling that the brain dead Prince of Wales worshipped Louis).

If you're going to do empire, then exit the empire sensibly. Alas, another episode in the UK's inevitable downward spiral.

And Hitch was right.

Blogger Warunicorn February 27, 2019 12:22 PM  

Blume wrote:The evidence I have seen is that the swastika is to old to correctly be attributed to any one group. They basically find an older one with another group of people every couple decades.

It was amusing to hear that the Japanese government was trying to replace the "swastika" symbol they used on their street-side maps to prepare for the 2020 Olympics and the resulting blowback that occurred by the populace. (The gist by the people was, We shouldn't have to bend over backward to accommodate people who don't understand our culture. If only the West had as much balls...)

The Sanskrit symbol is used to indicate a Buddhist temple. It's also not angled in the same direction as the swastika, but MTAI (most tourists are idiots), so they'd probably assume that it would mean, THIS IS WHERE NAZIS ARE, or something.

Blogger Nate73 February 27, 2019 12:34 PM  

Is it true that not responding would "invite further attacks"? It sounds like they hate each other as much as israel and palestine do.

Blogger Robert What? February 27, 2019 12:36 PM  

I guess the American Neocons will be fanning the flames of this one. Never let (the chance of) a war go to waste, eh?

Blogger Rahul S February 27, 2019 12:54 PM  

"Well, the Swastika is theirs, isn't it?"

Buddhists, Jains, and Hindus use the swatiska. So it's not relegated to Hindus. It's used for different reasons.

Blogger Rahul S February 27, 2019 12:56 PM  

"It's pretty obvious that Pakistan wants to de-escalate the situation and has been retaliating in a very measured fashion:"

Pakistan has a history of funding radicals that create trouble in Kashmir. Not saying that adding fuel to the fire is wise on India's part...just throwing that out there.

Blogger Shimshon February 27, 2019 12:58 PM  

Make Swastikas Great Again?

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 27, 2019 12:59 PM  

This is how The Road Warrior started, "For reasons long forgotten, two great warriors tribes went to war..."

Blogger Anthony February 27, 2019 1:04 PM  

+2

Blogger Jim the Curmudgeon February 27, 2019 1:09 PM  

I've heard the term 'hindu fascist' used before by Indian nationals. There is a group called the 'south asian network for secularism and democracy' that used to give speeches/lectures at university campuses. I went to one out of curiosity, and they were definitely worried about religious extremists within the BJP (Bharatiya Janata party). This was 2003 or so, and I don't remember enough details to comment. Given that they were advocating secular government I doubt that they were Muslims.

Blogger Azimus February 27, 2019 1:11 PM  

Is this strip of mountain land they are killing each other over actually worth anything?

Blogger Rahul S February 27, 2019 1:13 PM  

"Is this strip of mountain land they are killing each other over actually worth anything?"

My mom told me she visited Kashmir as a kid and it was a nice land. Now it's dangerous because of the radicals.

Blogger VD February 27, 2019 1:21 PM  

Pakistan has a history of funding radicals that create trouble in Kashmir.

Yes, everyone knows that. The point is that Pakistan's response to the Indian response has been clearly de-escalatory.

Try to keep in mind that very few readers here would care if both sides went full Tutsi-Hutu on each other, so long as they didn't a) use nukes or b) get China, Russia, or the USA involved.

Blogger sammibandit February 27, 2019 1:30 PM  

RSS party affiliates I gather?

Blogger tublecane February 27, 2019 1:40 PM  

"It therefore follows a doctrine of asymmetric escalation which allows for nuclear strikes in response to conventional military attacks."

Doesn't every nuclear power follow such a doctrine? Remind me what "first strike" means.

Blogger phunktor February 27, 2019 1:43 PM  

Yeah they go all the way to 473rd-classcitizenship with their wacky caste system. Makes jimcrow look like Mary poplins.

Blogger Garuna February 27, 2019 1:46 PM  

but Hitch would always say that the partitioning of India was one of most horrible of post war decisions

Hitchens was wrong. Religious diversity works about as well as ethnic diversity. The only mistake was that the partition wasn't clean.

Blogger Iron Spartan February 27, 2019 2:07 PM  

China and India will go to war in the next decade or so over control of the Indian Ocean and SE Asia. This is even more inevitable than the break up of the USA.

Those who live in the Palaces of New Delhi might not want a war with Pakistan. Those who live in estates in Islamabad might not want a war with India. But those who don't live in the capitols sound like they are already digging mass graves for enemy POW's.

I think the war between Pakistan and India has been delayed about as much as it can be at this point. Delayed much more and a minor conflict could turn into a war of atrocities,

Blogger tublecane February 27, 2019 2:16 PM  

"one wonders what sort of political ideology 'Hindu-fascism'"

Populist-nationalism by people with a Hindu "identity." Presumably to the exclusion of Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, and other minority populations.

There actually is or was a concept called Hindutva, or "Hindooness," which is meant to be interchangeable with the concept of India. I have no idea whether there's a political movement behind it.

The only other connection I can think of is Savitri Devi, who was not Indian but married one and spied for the Axis in WWII. She sought to synthesize Hinduism and Nazism.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 27, 2019 2:22 PM  

"De-escalation" damn I was hoping for a morally superior war conducted by the brown people versus us white people's brutal wars of isms and such?

Blogger Arthur Isaac February 27, 2019 2:54 PM  

Releasing footage of the Indian pilot being kicked in the face is going to inflame the Indians.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 27, 2019 2:58 PM  

Indian dude owned a Glock, maybe he deserved a kick in the face.

Blogger Robert Pinkerton February 27, 2019 3:01 PM  

ONE - but not all - of my personal and idiosyncratic grievances against Adolf Hitler is his pollution of the Swastika.

A poster in my living room shows the Hindu God Ganesha beating shit out of some Nazis, with the caption: "The Nazis stole the swastika. Ganesh wants it back."

Blogger Ktrey February 27, 2019 3:08 PM  

@26 Most of Pakistan's water supply comes from the region. India owns the sections upriver from Pakistan. Water supply and hydro power factor in here.

Blogger Arthur Isaac February 27, 2019 3:28 PM  

@Mantraman, I've never fired a Glock, I don't think my wrists are limber enough for it. If the Indians are hot, imagine the Glock owners. The dude didn't even get it out of the holster.

Blogger Desdichado February 27, 2019 3:33 PM  

VD wrote:Try to keep in mind that very few readers here would care if both sides went full Tutsi-Hutu on each other, so long as they didn't a) use nukes or b) get China, Russia, or the USA involved.
I'd settle for just not getting the USA involved.

And actually, if it makes a bunch of H1b visa holders run home to defend the motherland, even better.

Blogger sammibandit February 27, 2019 3:44 PM  

Slightly OTT but there is a contingent of Hindu nationalists who are pro Germany, even pro Hitler, because it was through WWII engagement with Britain that the British empire was broken. At least according to these fellows. I have no comment to add to that.

Modi seems to be suffering a fate similar to Trump: his base doesn't see him as nationalist enough. Eg/ concessions for muslims.

Blogger Solon February 27, 2019 3:52 PM  

"And actually, if it makes a bunch of H1b visa holders run home to defend the motherland, even better"

Are you mad? This would just push all the H1Bs that are already here to get more of their inbred family members over here, out of harm's way back in the "Motherland."

Have you not been paying attention to the main complaint about the US posturing to interfere in Venezuela, that being that it would drive thousands of "refugees" north to the US.

Same thing with India.

Now, I wouldn't care if they went full Tutsi-Hutu on each other IF and only if the US specifically said it will not be taking refugees, there's dozens of other countries close by that can handle them. Fat chance, I know.

Blogger Jester February 27, 2019 3:54 PM  

I listened to India's version of Walter Cronkite on CNN India crafting the narrative today while interviewing the Official Spokesman of the BJP, a defense expert and a political scholar. They would have the audience believe Modi is going to use this momentum combined with the international sentiment against the Paki Government's alliance with Jihadi warlords, and strike more targets. BJP's position is the Paki Government is next if they interfere. The Paki government either backs off and allows the radicals to be wiped out and faces a new future of Pakistani nationalism, or backs them up and we see a Kargil 2.0 that will spiral into Kali's death dance.

Blogger Noah B. February 27, 2019 4:03 PM  

This skirmish will end with a line dance and everything will be fine.

Blogger SAPPER February 27, 2019 4:14 PM  

Do people realize India and Pakistan have fought 4 large scale wars and numerous smaller clashes?

Nothing new here. Vox is right.

Blogger SAPPER February 27, 2019 4:17 PM  

To those who are saying one side or another will dominate and win are clueless.

Both have nukes.

There will be deescalation after some mutual attacks.

Blogger HMS Defiant February 27, 2019 5:47 PM  

India has a very strong case for war against Pakistan and it is a bit more than Kashmir. Pakistan has repeatedly sent heavily armed terrorists into India (Mumbai was the worst I can recall recently) and they always claim that they have no control over that just as they claimed the same thing over their control and creation of the Taliban in Afghanistan and their absolute and utter rejection of America when they hid bin Laden for a decade right next to one of the military schools.
India's fed up and yes, now they have the Hindu Nationalists who don't see any reason not to kill all the muslims or drive all of them out of the country.
The mistake a lot of people make in the West is that they believe the trype in every book on economics or international relations with all start with the obligatory bow to "We presume all State actors are rational beings." And nothing could be further from the truth or reality.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 27, 2019 7:09 PM  

I'm still puzzled on this "hindu fascism" thing. I'm imagining Gandhi with a little mustache right now.

Blogger Vaughan Williams February 27, 2019 7:20 PM  

@32 confounding factors: WWIII and the Maunder Minimum. India will try to take over Africa (they have infiltrated more extensively than China has), but when India is driven out, China will know not to even bother. American submarines will police the Indian Ocean, so India and China won't be able to make use of the African bread basket except on very favorable terms. They'll have to starve and reduce their populations just like the Western world will. A benevolent and enlightened government could sculpt the earth to make microclimates that would ameliorate a fair amount of the Maunder Minimum, but it would require the political will while the resources are still available.

Blogger Johnny February 27, 2019 8:55 PM  

The Swastika was a good luck symbol in Germany before the Nazis. Probably gone by now, but some of the Pennsylvania Amish had a Swastikas on their barns. And there used to be a row of them made with different colored bricks on a building where I live here in Wisconsin. The building now gone. None of this Nazi stuff.

This standoff with Pakistan sounds like the usual stuff for anybody who lives next to an Islamic country. Always like that. Islam is a curse.

Blogger J Van Stry February 27, 2019 9:05 PM  

All I know is that we need to get our people out of Afghanistan before they mix it up over there, as we have to go through Pakistan to get them out.

I'm not surprised that India is getting tired of Pakistan's crap. I am surprised that India actually did this, I just wonder if Pakistan's attempts to de-escalate are too little too late. Pakistan has been sending terrorists into India for decades. They've just been lucky that India was too fractured to reply.

Blogger J Van Stry February 27, 2019 9:08 PM  

@47 - India could survive being hit with a hundred nukes. Pakistan could not.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey February 27, 2019 9:19 PM  

@33
China and India will go to war in the next decade or so over control of the Indian Ocean and SE Asia

They've got an ongoing border dispute near Kashmir, too:

https://infogalactic.com/info/Aksai_Chin

Blogger Johnny February 27, 2019 9:57 PM  

>> India will try to take over Africa (they have infiltrated more extensively than China has),

I thought they had kicked the Hindus out of most places in Africa, along with us whites?

Blogger SirHamster February 27, 2019 10:13 PM  

Solon wrote:Are you mad? This would just push all the H1Bs that are already here to get more of their inbred family members over here, out of harm's way back in the "Motherland."

Have you not been paying attention to the main complaint about the US posturing to interfere in Venezuela, that being that it would drive thousands of "refugees" north to the US.



America is suffering the same fate as California. Cali's nice climate attracts all the r-folks, and US's relative wealth and peace attracts all the world as a safe harbor.

It's going to take some major conflict of some sort ("They have to go back") to reverse the incentives and undo the migration.

If Trump doesn't manage it, it defaults to the ethnic cleansing of post-America.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 10:22 PM  

" India could survive being hit with a hundred nukes. Pakistan could not"

a hand full of nukes in the right place would take out the vast majority of the ruling caste of india. You're very much mistaken.

Blogger tublecane February 27, 2019 10:43 PM  

@51- There's a Corn Palace in South Dakota with photos of old events on display, one featuring a giant swastika. Which apparently required explanation, hence the friendly caption saying something along the lines of: "Don't worry, they weren't Nazis."

Blogger Vaughan Williams February 28, 2019 1:20 AM  

@55 the Uganda thing was temporary; the Indian diaspora has grown in power and influence to the poin that South Africa is considered a captive state. The Indians have been in Africa longer than the Chinese and they blend in better.

Blogger bobby February 28, 2019 1:34 AM  

"The point is that Pakistan's response to the Indian response has been clearly de-escalatory."

The Pakistani muslims bombed the Hindu police parade, vaporizing close to fifty cops, and they're being de-escalatory? How gracious of them.

Sometimes "they started it!" is a valid moral position.

MoonOfAlabamaGuy clearly admires the Muslim spirit.

Blogger God Emperor Memes February 28, 2019 1:57 AM  

"Show bombs and vagene"

Blogger Anthony February 28, 2019 10:17 AM  

Hindu Fascism, like all fascism, is nationalism combined with a few random stupid economic ideas.

In India's case, it was demonetizing lots of the currency, and I'm sure they've done other stupid things. They're also doing a lot of things right, so the stupid hasn't burned too hard.

Blogger justaguy February 28, 2019 12:15 PM  

The ruling daste of India actively dislikes the Pakis and thinks that they are inferior. India knows it has a superior military, but who wants to rule over the masses of radical muslims in Pakistan? India has to be able to suffer a low level of attacks from state-sponsored terrorist from Pakis, but the question is how much is too much. The dance between this is a normal retaliation and this is more is a delicate one. Remember that it was this dance- state-sponsored terrorism by Serbia,-that ended up haphazardly starting WWI in Europe. Hopefully there are breaks someplace to prevent large scale war again with India. I'm not sure that the Indian upper classes are as tough/realistic/willing to do what is necessary as were the upper classes in 1947.

Blogger HMS Defiant February 28, 2019 4:20 PM  

if the swastika is your personal hangup look no further than Naval Amphib Base, Coronado and look from above at one of the barracks built long ago towards the east end of the base. You need to be about 500 feet up to see it clearly.

Blogger damaris.tighe March 01, 2019 4:47 AM  

"He thanked the Pakistani military for rescuing him from the mob" Says it all.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts