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Tuesday, February 26, 2019

The end of atheism

The Z-Man explains why atheism is on the decline in parallel with the retreat of Christianity from the public space:
The central defect of atheism, old and new, is it is an entirely negative western identity and entirely dependent on Christianity. Specifically, it requires people of some status to defend Christianity and the Christian belief in the super natural. Atheism has always been the oxpecker of mass movements. Everything about it relies on its host both tolerating it and thriving on its own. It’s why atheism has had its spasms of success when Christianity in America has had a revival, as in the 80’s and the 2000’s.

Atheists will deny this, of course. They will argue, as Dennett often does, that the steep decline of Christianity is proof their arguments were superior. The reason they no longer talk about their thing is they won and their enemy is dead. The fact that there are plenty of Muslims and crackpot feminist airheads around spouting magical oogily-boogily never seems to get their attention for some reason. The only guy to venture into this area was Dawkins, but the Prog quickly reminded him who pays his bills.

That’s always been the tell with atheism. Belief in something as insane as male privilege or implicit whiteness should get their attention. After all, these are not just beliefs in the supernatural, they are primitive beliefs in the supernatural. Men of the classical period had more plausible and complex beliefs than people like Amy Harmon. She is a click away from demanding human sacrifice. Yet, the new atheists were never much interest in those magical beliefs. They were too busy hounding the last Christians.

That’s another tell. Atheism has always been a popular pose on the Left, because it was a useful signal. The bad whites loved their boom sticks and sky gods. The good whites rejected all those crazy beliefs. It’s why atheists tended to focus on the mainstream of Christianity, like Catholics and mainline Protestant churches. Mormons were always an easy target. They avoided the Jews and black Baptists. Sure, once in while a zinger against the tribe would be tossed in, but the enemy was always white Christians.

The decline on atheism is a good example of the perils of negative identity. When you define yourself as being in opposition to someone or something, you inevitably become a slave to it. Your very existence depends on it. As the main Christian churches collapse in scandal and bizarre attempts to move Left, the enemies for atheists to attack are getting more difficult to find.
What I find interesting is how many people now understand that atheism is not what it etymologically purports to be, a lack of belief in gods, or even a lack of belief in the supernatural, but what it has observably been since the Abbe Jean Meslier posthumously published his Memoir of the Thoughts and Feelings of Jean Meslier: Clear and Evident Demonstrations of the Vanity and Falsity of All the Religions of the World in 1729, mere Western anti-Christianity.

That's all very well and good. But now apply precisely the same historical observation and logic to the concepts of free speech, freedom of thought, and the Enlightenment. What you find yourself concluding may very well surprise, if not dismay, you, depending upon your allegiance to the aforementioned dogmas.

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81 Comments:

Blogger Harambe February 26, 2019 7:41 AM  

Atheists are the religious zealots of globalism. Not that we don't all know this by now.

Blogger Balkan Yankee February 26, 2019 7:45 AM  

Atheist - Will parasite Christianity for attention.

Blogger Michael February 26, 2019 7:46 AM  

@VD "But now apply precisely the same historical observation and reasoning to free speech, the freedom of thought, and the Enlightenment. What you find yourself concluding may very well surprise, if not dismay, you."


Would love for you to write more on this.

Blogger maniacprovost February 26, 2019 7:47 AM  

Free speech and tolerance don't mean what they used to. The first amendment was specifically meant to prevent the federal government from restricting speech. There's no way that Protestants in 1786 would have interpreted it to mean everyone should say whatever they want without repercussions.

Maybe that's the Germanic influence reinterpreting the legal principle in hamhanded fashion.

Blogger VD February 26, 2019 7:55 AM  

Would love for you to write more on this.

I don't need to do so. JB Bury already did it in 1913.

Blogger BastionHarm February 26, 2019 7:59 AM  

...the enemy was always white Christians...

Indeed.

After a few weeks of frequenting various online atheist groups about a decade ago, when people like Dawkins and Hitchens were all the rage, it was hard not to notice that they were infested by shitlibs who never dared to attack Muslims or Jews; only Christians. And, of course, Christians were always caricatured as some trailer-park, toothless, low-IQ rednecks.

Furthermore, all their claims to "love science!" and "be rational!" seemed to evaporate on contact with their fervent beliefs in things like equalitarianism, "white privilege", "systemic racism", that IQ is wholly environmental not genetic, and a host of other, equally shitty and zero-evidence beliefs.

And, oh yeah, although it was perfectly fine and encouraged to openly mock and ridicule Christians as low-IQ morons, don't dare do the same to their pet groups like blacks.

Blogger The Cooler February 26, 2019 8:00 AM  

The Lie is quite the onion at this point. Start peeling and pray to see through the tears. There is a center.

Blogger pdwalker February 26, 2019 8:04 AM  

VD wrote:Would love for you to write more on this.

I don't need to do so. JB Bury already did it in 1913.


This one? A History of Freedom of Thought

Blogger Dave Dave February 26, 2019 8:15 AM  

Any ideology th at is derivative of another, such as atheism and Christianity, can only enjoy moderate short term success. It will never overshadow what it is derived from. Free speech is derived from morality, but most of the world doesn't consider free speech at all, especially in Asia. Asians respect strength, and fluffy enlightenment ideals don't sway them.

Blogger ADS February 26, 2019 8:15 AM  

An interesting experiment in the company of atheists chirping their anti-religious preening is to agree and amplify with a redirect towards (((the tribe which must never be criticized))).

"ha ha yeah, religion is so crazy! Can you believe all the stupid stuff that Jews wrote down and live by in their Talmud? They've got a wire that runs around Brooklyn that magically turns it into an indoor space so their bronze age skydaddy won't be mad if they walk down the sidewalks carrying groceries or pushing a baby stroller on the sabbath! How stupid can these beliefs get?"

The nonverbal reactions are priceless. NB: You will quickly find yourself excluded from gatherings of atheists.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 26, 2019 8:18 AM  

Atheism is a joke perpetuated in part by conservatives who spaz out every time these shitbirds poke at them.

But conservatives profited from this scam, every time a clown gamma prince of atheism spouted off the conservatives could glom onto that scam of being the great defenders and never actually looking for the weaknesses of atheism beyond the usual dry reading that could cure insomnia.

On the other hand I would like to see the atheists fight the POC mainly Islam since they know how to fight in some fashion, call it Trial By Combat a truly progressive means to ascertaining truth.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 26, 2019 8:21 AM  

ADS wrote:The nonverbal reactions are priceless. NB: You will quickly find yourself excluded from gatherings of atheists.

It's all upside, then. Atheists are tedious company, at best.

Blogger McChuck February 26, 2019 8:25 AM  

There are many fronts in the centuries-old war against Western Civilization, formerly known as Christendom.

Blogger Damn the torpedos February 26, 2019 8:28 AM  

I love it when you rip up the enlightenment

I hope Peterson spergs out about you not believing in the enlightenment so we can hear more about just how evil it is.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 26, 2019 8:44 AM  

So what you're saying is, they're all vortices trailing Christianity's passage.

Yep. Lacunae.

Blogger Stilicho February 26, 2019 8:47 AM  

Yep. Those things (free speech, etc.) are all phenomena made possible by the tolerance of a Christian civilization. Take away either the Christian part or the civilization, and the formerly tolerated luxuries will disappear. Take away both and those luxuries will be hunted down and destroyed with a vengeance.

Blogger tz February 26, 2019 8:51 AM  

In Catholic Republic by Timothy Gordon, he points out that both the Council of Dort and the Enlightenment rejected Natural Law and even free will, mostly because of "total depravity" - that we are so fallen we can neither know nor follow the truth (or the good), Jesus or not.

However that ended up being as untenable as canceling Christmas and Easter, so by the time of our Revolution, the Black Robe Regiment was back to full natural law arguments and personal responsibility.

That era was so biblical, it was like fish not noticing the water. St. Paul was the most quoted author by all the founding fathers. See wallbuilders.org for convincing evidence.

Also note the careful construction of the amendments, though it says "no law ... abridging the freedom of speech". That did not mean blasphemy or obscenity.

The enlightenment ended in the Reign of Terror. We used some of the governmental engineering theory like separation of powers, but not the philosophy.

The Enlightenment is mostly revisionist history, like the haigiographies of Lincoln. He was self-admitted white supremacist:

“And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

He went on to say: “Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may someday challenge the supremacy of the white man.”

Tear down his monument. And if Christendom's symbol is the cross, the Enlightenment's is the Guillotine.

We don't to a lot of what the Greeks and Romans did, but Aristotle and Cato had some good ideas. Aquinas didn't baptize Epicurus or Zeno.

Christians can drink political poison and take up philosophical snakes and it won't hurt them.

Blogger pyrrhus February 26, 2019 8:53 AM  

Most atheists have more magical beliefs than African tribesmen...Amy Harmon thinks anyone can be a mathematician...

Blogger peacefulposter February 26, 2019 8:54 AM  

The Enlightenment has typically been described as anti-Christian but not Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Thought. But good to see VD do so here.

All three are Babelist.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 26, 2019 9:00 AM  

"Christians can drink political poison and take up philosophical snakes and it won't hurt them."

Epiphenomena don't necessarily matter. Being free of death isn't the concern for us 'cause that's already dealt. Being "free" of life on the other hand, is fatal.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 26, 2019 9:02 AM  

"The Enlightenment has typically been described as anti-Christian but not Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Thought."

Bring every thought into subjection to Christ.

Blogger Ransom Smith February 26, 2019 9:05 AM  

This is terrible news for haberdashers everywhere.
Who else will they sell fedoras to?

Blogger CM February 26, 2019 9:08 AM  

Yep. Those things (free speech, etc.) are all phenomena made possible by the tolerance of a Christian civilization. Take away either the Christian part or the civilization, and the formerly tolerated luxuries will disappear. Take away both and those luxuries will be hunted down and destroyed with a vengeance.

I think it's more that those enlightened ideals were championed as a means to speak out against Christianity and Christians tolerated it.

Now that Christianity is dying, there's no need for those pillars to exist because no one believes in Christianity anymore.

It's a bit more of the left's deconstruction of old pillars of western civilization to remove the Christian element and then rebuild those structures without it. They did it to marriage and gender roles, now they are rebuilding cultural values and mores.

The result will be a counterfeit with the surface institutions but cheap knock-offs.

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira February 26, 2019 9:12 AM  

Oh, I figured this one out some time ago. I get the same reactions from atheists when I tell them that "science" is their religion, as they expect to get from me by insulting Christ. Instead, I laugh, but they screech and cry heresy. Truly remarkable to witness in person, and it only strengthens my faith.

Blogger tz February 26, 2019 9:14 AM  

Molyneux has noted the problem with Atheism.

He notes the State is also an imaginary monster, but priests in blue will imprison and kill you for being a heretic and not paying your tithes to it (statheism).

But you also see the other problem when you remove the wall before knowing its purpose (as per Chesterton), or burning down the creaky Church without anywhere else to go.

They all scramble to create some kind of morality that includes adult life, freedom, and property, but not exclude debauchery and perversion. But if we are animals without anything angelic, they can't say why.

They have removed the foundations and wonder that the castle is collapsing.

Christianity is like the fire and real objects, with heaven as the outside world in the parable of the cave. People are chained and only see shadows. Atheists want to be chained to the material world. They merely have to open their chains (they are not locked) and the truth will set you free Christians will show them the rest of the real world and heaven. But they demand proof that the fire and objects and outer world exist BEFORE they will open their chains, and reject what can be shown in shadow.

Christianity built Western Civilization - Atheists accept everything except the foundation and cornerstone. but think they can get the latter without the former although (real) Christians have been right on everything else. So we are right advanced philosophy, law, morality, and created a great civilization but they think we are wrong on Jesus and God.

That is why they have to rewrite the Enlightenment and even Science (Pasteur was a faithful Catholic). And we see what happens to "Science" when it isn't founded in Chrisians looking at Natural Law seeking the Truth.

Blogger tz February 26, 2019 9:17 AM  

Christianity cannot die because Jesus Christ is alive forevermore. It can contract, or appear to. The body can have a bad sickness. But Christ is also the Great Physician.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 26, 2019 9:22 AM  

"Now that Christianity is dying, there's no need for those pillars to exist because no one believes in Christianity anymore."

Unless a seed falls into the ground and dies.

Blogger CarpeOro February 26, 2019 9:35 AM  

One thing I noticed many years ago about the "Enlightenment" philosophers. Name a famous philosophers and you could also name an "enlightened" despot that the had a long term correspondence with (from what I recall they were usually fawning ones for the philosophers, heaping the despots with praise). Fredrick the Great, Catherine the Great, both "enlightened" and both thoroughgoing autocrats. To put things simply, the true spirit of the Enlightenment boils down to the worship of a centralized state that knows better than the great horde of unwashed what is good for them and will torture and kill you for the good of the State (individuals have no true value). The fans of the Enlightenment have always claimed it is the source of the concepts of free thought when in truth it is about the end of it.

Blogger Dr Caveman February 26, 2019 9:45 AM  

Atheism as a movement has fractured along several fault lines:
A large part of it became converged and so preachy on feminism and SJW nonsense that it sickened the other parts.
And the hypocrisy of constant attacks on Christianity for perceived historical sleights, while ignoring the very real threat Islam poses, drove away many others.

Blogger xevious2030 February 26, 2019 9:49 AM  

In a sense, I agree. And historically, that is the case, a tool to attack the “system,” selling a rebelling against authority to attack a dominant Christianity. Now that the authority has become the Satanist, the anti-christ (preparation for the anti-Christ), a revival in the rebellion against apostasy through free speech, freedom of thought, and Enlightenment to the true Devine (rather than the substitute divine) has a potential to turn the tables. Through a notion that my enemy brings my weapons to the battlefield for me, requiring only the ingenuity to bring them to change hands. In this, the bringing of words, which the enemy uses for lies, and which we use for truth. The bringing of discovered formulaic rhetoric, which the enemy brings for distortion and confusion, and which we may turn to focus and clarity. The great weakness of their technique is that the direction is not set, and what has been utilized to bring people toward a change to one destination, may be utilized to bring about a change to a different destination. Good has become the counterculture in many respects, and so has the greatest potential with the youth and the future, as has been said here and elsewhere.

As they have done, the abandonment of that utility upon arrival, abandoning free speech once they have power, this may likewise be done in converse. But rather than a secular society, we have, to offer, one that is open to the discernment of the Holy Spirit as a flow regulator that reduces the ebb of tide. At least in consideration of a peaceful approach. In the case that avoids war. In the case of war, the nature is well documented in human account, and requires no further elaboration for general purpose of understanding.

Blogger Stilicho February 26, 2019 9:58 AM  

@CM:
"I think it's more that those enlightened ideals were championed as a means to speak out against Christianity and Christians tolerated it.

Now that Christianity is dying, there's no need for those pillars to exist because no one believes in Christianity anymore."

I don't disagree that is how those tools have been used, but they are just tools. When they were first introduced, there was a need to protect them from the establishment which was explicitly Christian, so they were, in turn, often used to attack that establishment. Quite successfully, in fact. That use of these tools is why many on the right value them today. However, as we have observed, these tools are virtually useless against an enemy that does not tolerate them much less value them like the left. So they are of limited value to us on the right in our fight for survival. The Left never had any use for them beyond their pursuit of power and now that the left is in power, they no longer pretend much. These luxuries are victims of their own success and contain the seeds of their own destruction.

There may come a time when we can afford them again, but we should not fall for the trick of thinking them principles in their own right: they are simply tools that can be employed for good or ill and they are destructive if not properly constrained.

Blogger SAPPER February 26, 2019 9:59 AM  

Islam is winning because they do not tolerate Atheism.

Islam: "Want to be an apostate, good for you. But there will be consequences."

Modern Christians: "Please let us have a discussion so I can better understand your position".

Blogger xevious2030 February 26, 2019 10:07 AM  

In other words, the meme is best summed, to borrow from the movie The Ninth Gate, “For centuries, they have met to read from this book... ...and worship the prince of darkness. Today, they have degenerated into a social club... ...for bored millionaires and celebrities who use its meetings... ...as an excuse to indulge their jaded sexual appetites.”

https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=the-ninth-gate

Meaning, boring, tired, wrinkled old degenerates, that pretend they are still young and fresh and exciting. Trying to sell that “old and wrinkled is the new sexy.”

Blogger Stilicho February 26, 2019 10:12 AM  

I admit, I was one of those initially skeptical of this view of free speech die to my attachment to the concept, but upon examination, the logic and facts are clear and the conclusion inescapable.

Regarding the Enlightenment, there is value in Locke, but the philosophes are mostly worthless. Rousseau, in particular, exemplifies all of the things wrong with the Enlightenment.

Blogger Iron Spartan February 26, 2019 10:12 AM  

Converged churches are dying. Traditional and hardline churches are growing. Might even been a lesson to be learned here.

Blogger Garuna February 26, 2019 10:27 AM  

GAYtheism was exposed as a paper tiger when it got curb stomped by Islam. Christians should never have debated GAYtheists. Just beheaded a few to shut the rest of them up.

Blogger Dangeresque February 26, 2019 10:32 AM  

It's like satanism... Largely just a means of trolling middle-class white American Christians. With most people only believing in it to the degree that it achieves that end.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 26, 2019 10:53 AM  

Over on conservative twitter they are passing about some video of a crazy muslim street preacher berating some white guy trying to play Enlightenment Worthy, totally boring conservative uselessness.

Should just ask the crazy muslim preacher what he thinks of atheists.

In the future if you are not willing to drive a busload of atheists down to the local mosque or muslim refugee camp and let the atheists out to receive the welcome of the muslims then the future is not for you. As CA says at WRSA "harden your hearts."

Blogger Barbarossa February 26, 2019 11:14 AM  

@28 Interesting side note to Catherine the Great. As a minor German princess, she was very much a child of the Enlightenment. When she improbably ascended to the Russian throne, she very much intended to rule according to Enlightenment principles and, as you alluded to, had a lengthy correspondence with Diderot. Eventually, Diderot descended upon her court with intentions of being the guiding hand to modernize Russia ("If you can enlighten there, you can enlighten anywhere! It's up to you, St. Petersburg, Saaaaaainttt -" never mind). Catherine quickly realized that Diderot's notions would lead to societal chaos and suddenly the Enlightenment Princess became a more Traditional Czarina (including an uneasy relationship with the Orthodox Church, conversion to Orthodoxy notwithstanding).

Blogger Thumos February 26, 2019 11:20 AM  

tz wrote:In Catholic Republic by Timothy Gordon, he points out that both the Council of Dort and the Enlightenment rejected Natural Law and even free will, mostly because of "total depravity" - that we are so fallen we can neither know nor follow the truth (or the good), Jesus or not.




This is one of many dumb protestant heresies. If there's no free will, then if you take that premise all the way, then there are no ethics and there is no knowledge. God no longer matters. What you're left with then is scientism, which surprise surprise, is certain now that free will is an illusion (according to empirical science). This all demonstrates the point so often made that Western atheism is just yet another Christian heresy.

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 26, 2019 11:22 AM  

They want to tear down our war monuments, our statues, rename our schools and streets etc. They want to erase us.

These atheists aren't anti-Christian. That is the big lie of atheists. They are anti-white and anti-Western civ. This is why they don't go after black Christians or Muslims or Jews. While Harris does go after Muslims in a pretty respectable way, he dare not attack his fellow tribesmen.

What is really funny and ironic, is that so many of these people are only tolerated because they live in the Christian West. They attack the one thing that allows them to be what they are. Perhaps they know deep down inside that they are not fit to be permitted to exist.

Blogger Jack Amok February 26, 2019 12:01 PM  

Atheism is just another instance of left-wing parasitism. Like all leftist rubrics, it doesn't do anything to create or maintain a functional society, it relies on a host to do that and then attacks the host for cheap gains. No effective philosophy is without hard edges, so the parasites have easy targets to snipe at.

Blogger Balam February 26, 2019 12:05 PM  

Tars Tarkusz wrote:They want to tear down our war monuments, our statues, rename our schools and streets etc. They want to erase us.

These atheists aren't anti-Christian. That is the big lie of atheists. They are anti-white and anti-Western civ. This is why they don't go after black Christians or Muslims or Jews. While Harris does go after Muslims in a pretty respectable way, he dare not attack his fellow tribesmen.

What is really funny and ironic, is that so many of these people are only tolerated because they live in the Christian West. They attack the one thing that allows them to be what they are. Perhaps they know deep down inside that they are not fit to be permitted to exist.


I disagree with your conclusion that they are focused on anti-white/west as opposed to being anti-Christ. If they were merely anti-white/west they would happily convert to whatever culture takes over a formerly Christian territory knowing that they have eradicated the local whites. In Islam taquiya is precisely the behavior you describe, using all means including infiltration and demoralization to lay the enemy low. However what you see is people like Richard Dawkins and the George Cloonys fleeing from the wrecked neighborhoods and societies once the protection of the Christians are lifted.

It is more obvious that atheists want all the fruits of Christianity but they resent the work that has to go into it. More precisely they resent having to be in obedience to God but that's a longer point to justify. To point at Richard Dawkins again he says something along the lines that atheists would rather live in a Christian neighborhood than an Islamic one. It goes without saying that China's not too pleasant either.

They love every aspect of the Kingdom of God...except God Himself. High trust, seekers of truth, time preference set well beyond their mortal lives and coincidentally well into the lives of great grandchildren. Of course when you cut yourself from the root the branch withers and so on but that's becoming apparent anyhow.

Blogger Beau February 26, 2019 12:07 PM  

Rousseau, in particular, exemplifies all of the things wrong with the Enlightenment.

Absolutely, and his baneful influence still infects western civilization.

Blogger CM February 26, 2019 12:19 PM  

Christianity cannot die because Jesus Christ is alive forevermore. It can contract, or appear to. The body can have a bad sickness. But Christ is also the Great Physician.

I don't disagree with you, but Christianity in the west is going underground. In that sense, its dying in the culture.

I don't think we can count it out permanently or that it still can't make strides among it's torch-bearers, but that doesn't change the overall assessment that Zman made that I built my comment on.

Blogger Robert Pinkerton February 26, 2019 12:19 PM  

Not everyone who declines to worship the God of Abraham is atheistic; after all, there ARE other Gods in the cosmos. Christianity simply does not make sense to those of us whom the Abrahamics call "Pagan." (Judaism makes sense as a Tribe worshiping their Tribal God. BTW, Cesar Tort, among others, maintains that Christians in fact worship the Tribal God of the Jewish People in the guise of 'God the Father.)

Blogger Gen. Kong February 26, 2019 12:26 PM  

Maybe that's the Germanic influence reinterpreting the legal principle in hamhanded fashion.

I suppose one could say Germanic influence, but (((Germanic))) influence via Talmud is more apt. Those familiar with the work of the Wizard of Poz will recognize the principle of 'inversion' at play in the shift of legal interpretation of 'religious freedom'. Rather ironic that the British army played a tune called The World Turned Upside Down when their surrender to Washington, et al was formalized at Yorktown.

Blogger VD February 26, 2019 12:26 PM  

Cesar Tort, among others, maintains that Christians in fact worship the Tribal God of the Jewish People in the guise of 'God the Father.

He's wrong.

Blogger Gen. Kong February 26, 2019 12:31 PM  

pyrrhus wrote:

Most atheists have more magical beliefs than African tribesmen...Amy Harmon thinks anyone can be a mathematician...

Bitch needs to learn how to code.

Blogger PJW Gent February 26, 2019 12:33 PM  

CarpeOro wrote:...The fans of the Enlightenment have always claimed it is the source of the concepts of free thought when in truth it is about the end of it.
The only "free thought" they championed was that which struck at Christianity on whatever front it was employed.

Blogger Gen. Kong February 26, 2019 12:47 PM  

ADS wrote:

An interesting experiment in the company of atheists chirping their anti-religious preening is to agree and amplify with a redirect towards (((the tribe which must never be criticized))).


Fastest way known to get kicked out of an Atheist discussion. Even some attacks on the Musloids are tolerated, like throwing gays off the roof, etc.

At Kersey's SBPDL site, there was a handy acronym based upon the statement attributed to Voltaire (if you want to know who rules over you, find out who you may not criticize): TWMNBN = Those Who Must Not Be Named. The abbreviation even has Hebraic 'look' to it since there there are no vowels.

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 26, 2019 12:48 PM  

Balam wrote:I disagree with your conclusion that they are focused on anti-white/west as opposed to being anti-Christ.

But they don't attack black Christians or Chinese Christians or Christians outside of the West. To them, Christianity in the West is merely a proxy for the whites they hate so much.

Even when they were attacking the Covington kids, that they were white was the biggest complaint. That they were Christian seemed almost incidental.

Even if I am wrong, never forget that whether or not is primary or secondary, they hate you because you are white.

Blogger Birdman February 26, 2019 12:59 PM  

And Christianity is part of civnat, that's why they attack white christian

Blogger Birdman February 26, 2019 1:02 PM  

What?? You do know they were israelite not jews but ISRAELITE, now the Israelite is Christian

Blogger Solon February 26, 2019 1:20 PM  

@Tars

They don't attack black Christians or Chinese Christians? Of course they do. Their attacks on the Covington kids was positively steeped in anti-christianity: "who are these kids, whose beliefs lead them to think they are so superior to those poor Native Americans? They *smirked* at the alcoholic-American! Such an evil philosophy!"

I don't have any direct references, but I doubt you'll be able to find any Neo-Atheists shedding tears over the plight of Chinese Christians. If you can, perhaps one could reconsider your argument that they're more anti-white/anti-western civ than anti-christian.

It's easy to mix the two up, since Christianity is one of the three pillars of Western Civilization; an attack on one is an attack on both.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 26, 2019 1:24 PM  

I just realized something.
In Europe, in the presence of all that Christianity in stoneworks, there's a sense that death is indeed not the end.
Blanket statements incoming...
But we don't have that in America. Spiritual death of sorts. That's why for every smoker in Europe there are 20 chain smokers in the USA. For everybody have a beer in Europe there are 20 having too many in the USA. For everybody in Europe having a piece of chocolate there are 20 in the USA suffering from morbid obesity.
And just now it all became linked together.

Blogger Daniel Babylon February 26, 2019 1:30 PM  

Is anybody here a former free-speech advocate? Did you feel at some point that free speech was the most important thing in the world, and to contradict it is one of the greatest evils? Now I don't give a rat's ass about free speech. It's insane how perspectives shift.

Blogger PJW Gent February 26, 2019 1:31 PM  

Thumos wrote:tz wrote:In Catholic Republic by Timothy Gordon, he points out that both the Council of Dort and the Enlightenment rejected Natural Law and even free will, mostly because of "total depravity" - that we are so fallen we can neither know nor follow the truth (or the good), Jesus or not.



This is one of many dumb protestant heresies. If there's no free will, then if you take that premise all the way, then there are no ethics and there is no knowledge. God no longer matters. What you're left with then is scientism, which surprise surprise, is certain now that free will is an illusion (according to empirical science). This all demonstrates the point so often made that Western atheism is just yet another Christian heresy.

I guess it is all in the definition or should I say ill-defining free will. I would argue there is something like free choice among tainted offerings, but the will is chained to the old man and sin and not free (see Paul's argument in Romans 7 for starters). Sin, which we are all guilty of, corrupts the will and tares the scales of judgement. It is only the new man, in Christ, after our resurrection that will again access free will (untainted ability to choose among clearly understood alternatives), albeit a will that is forever captive to Christ.

Re: "If there's no free will, then if you take that premise all the way, then there are no ethics and there is no knowledge. God no longer matters." I don't know how you can support that position, since you are making man and his will the central arbiter of ethics, knowledge, and God mattering. They exist and matter outside of our will and our ability/inability to apprehend them and to me your argument is the temptation of our first sin.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 26, 2019 1:34 PM  

I've been pissing off boomers lately. They get all bent out of shape over "internet censorship". Muh free speech and all that.
I tell them we should use the precedent to ban all degeneracy and pornography from the internet. \

We will know we "won" when the next "Piss Christ Artist" is in jail.
... or the crowd that puts him in the hospital cannot be convicted by a jury.

Blogger Oswald February 26, 2019 1:44 PM  

tz wrote:But you also see the other problem when you remove the wall before knowing its purpose (as per Chesterton)

I understand I can’t have Western Civilisation but I would watch the earth crack open and the oceans drain away before I would have any faith. Not because I desire evil, but because the concept of faith is foreign to me.

tz wrote:They have removed the foundations and wonder that the castle is collapsing.
I haven’t touched your castle. Your castle is falling apart because so many American Christians are availing themselves of sins like gluttony and voting for moderates like Donald Trump.

As I understand it evidence of God comes from the written account of the Bible, the existence of the Church and from modern day miracles. The evidence for miracles is lacking. In ATOB even the sign of the immaculate glowed.

“But they demand proof that the fire and objects and outer world exist BEFORE they will open their chains, and reject what can be shown in shadow.”

I suppose that is why it is called faith, not reason.
Why do I have to have faith and not use reason to believe in God? There are lots of lesser demons, as well as the devil, that are worshipped. How can we tell the difference between the religions if we can't use reason?

I know as an atheist that I must say there is no such thing as evil, but I can’t see how the existence of bad acts is to be attributed to anyone but men.

tz wrote:So we are right advanced philosophy, law, morality, and created a great civilization but they think we are wrong on Jesus and God.

Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, France, England and Scandinavia created a great civilisation. Christianity also created Latin America, Ethiopia, Orthodox civilisation and Armenia. As soon as Japan was reopened, she has done a fine job of exceeding most of the Christian world.

I would be a better and happier person if I were a Christian but I can’t go around believing things just because they make me happy, I might as well become an sjw or start believing I’m a millionaire.

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 26, 2019 1:47 PM  

@55 Solon... I agree that these things are intertwined.
While some will occasionally moan about the Chinese gov persecuting Christians, it is always framed as the Chinese attacking a "vulnerable minority" They seem to actually believe Christians are the homos of China, and look at it as a kind of 'minority' solidarity.
They completely ignore the persecution of Christians in the Middle East.
Whatever the case, they want to tear down the society that our ancestors built and that we are charged with guarding and bestowing it onto the next generation.

Blogger PJW Gent February 26, 2019 1:57 PM  

Oswald wrote:tz wrote:But you also see the other problem when you remove the wall before knowing its purpose (as per Chesterton)


Re: voting for moderates like Donald Trump.
So Hillary would have been better?

Re: As I understand it evidence of God comes from the written account of the Bible, the existence of the Church and from modern day miracles. The evidence for miracles is lacking...I suppose that is why it is called faith, not reason.

Read Vox's Irrational Atheist. You really do not understand. As to miracles, I have had a few verified medical miracles, the reason my daughter is still with us.



Blogger Solon February 26, 2019 1:59 PM  

Phwew, you're all over the place here. Don't you ever feel lost and confused, flailing about in the darkness? It certainly appears that way from this comment. I was an atheist not so long ago myself, and my life had no purpose, no direction, no sense of belonging. I found God (or should I say, God found me), and I'm no longer confused.

To your first comment: you can't avoid evil if you don't have anything to define evil, that's the first step. God defines evil in the Bible. Atheism rejects God's definition of morality. Without that buoy, you're floating in a dark ocean, carried along by the tides. Nothing and no one is there to tell you which direction to go to do or avoid evil. The very fact that you understand the concept of evil suggests you were raised in a religious society of some sort.

Second paragraph: the proof of God is all around you. In math, in the sciences, in the motion of the heavenly bodies. Do you think pure coincidence could have found you on a planet with exactly the right atmosphere and conditions to support carbon-based life? If so, you don't understand the sheer mathematical impossibility of it; it's like a bike tire inflating itself through random air particle motions: possible, but the universe will die a heat death before you'll ever see it happen spontaneously.

Final comment: Christians don't believe what we do because it makes us happy. It's damn hard being a good Christian, it'd be much easier to give in to sin and hedonism, and we'd probably be happier in the short term. It isn't about happiness, not here in this life anyway.

Blogger xevious2030 February 26, 2019 2:12 PM  

Here’s the real low breakdown that goes into the perspectives.

Jesus criticized/threatened the scammers. Romans were blond/blue (generality). Rome conquered most of Europe, became united Europe, made lots of babies with. Rome bulldozed Jerusalem (second Temple). Rome became Christian. Roman/blond/blue/Christian became big chunk of Western Civilization. Muzzies attacked Western civilization, again and again, and again (point buildup with scammers). Western Civ in Spain kicked out scammers for trying to bring Christians to reject Grace (threatens soul with second death, really big deal to people that actually hold physical life as secondary, for themselves and their children) and come under the Law (read the actual 1492 Alhambra Decree, nothing crazy, no blood libel or eating babies or such, just people trying to push the Law (Torah) and tradition scam on Christians and subvert Christianity from the kingdom that was once again part of Christendom after a whole lot of blood and struggle).

Blogger The Cooler February 26, 2019 2:17 PM  

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Blogger The Cooler February 26, 2019 2:20 PM  

I know as an atheist that I must say there is no such thing as evil, but I can’t see how the existence of bad acts is to be attributed to anyone but men.

What is not permitted in the Godless world to which you subscribe? There are ultimately no "bad acts" in a Godless universe.

Not only have you never been in the furnace of doubt, you've never been anywhere near it.

Blogger Solon February 26, 2019 2:57 PM  

@Tars

You and I seem to be in agreement on the subject, always refreshing.

I did look into any opinions of neo-atheism on Christians in non-western civs, and your point about them ignoring Middle Eastern Christian persecution could suggest either a greater focus on their part towards specifically anti-white rhetoric rather than anti-christianity in general, or, perhaps they ignore it because it's Christians being persecuted in general, and they don't actually care about the skin color of the people doing the oppression, which implies they hate Christianity more than whites or Western Civilization.

I lean toward the latter argument: I certainly don't see Neo-Atheists and leftists clamoring to live in Yemen anywhere I look. They like living with whites in Western civilization, they just don't like what that demands of them. Having a cake and not eating it is just such a terrible burden for some people.

They're perfectly happy to tear down the only religion that lets them do so unopposed. I'd get more schadenfreude from seeing their faces as they get pushed off a building or their heads chopped off if it was happening to them in some desert shithole rather than here in America (coming soon, to a Minneapolis street near you!)

Blogger Solon February 26, 2019 3:37 PM  

OT: the Assassin's Creed videogame series was entertaining up to the third installment, but looking at it now from a Christian perspective, that game is heinous in a subtle way, as most subversive games tend to be.

The Creed: "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." Lies are ok. Hedonism is great. If anyone tries to stop you, murder them.

You've got Christian Templars portrayed as totalitarian, evil bastards whose only goal is world domination through the Apple of Eden, who want to enslave the world through advanced alien magic technology to mind control people, and the Assassins are a brotherhood set out to stop them.

Playing through those games, I never stopped to think about the plot, and how it's essentially a 180 degree reversal of how the actual religions play out. Christian man bad, Muslim man good. Also, like most satanists, the whole damn thing is a wink to let the entire world know what (((they))) are trying to do. You know, the typical (((Eskimo))) thing where if they tell you that they're swindling you, and they swindle you, it's morally ok, since it's not their fault that you're a sucker, they told you straight to your face that you're a rube and you still bought it.

God, when will you rid us of these tiresome (((pests)))? The Bible tells us that murder is a sin, but it looks more and more like an actual Holocaust wouldn't be murder, it would be justice.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 26, 2019 4:28 PM  

"OT: the Assassin's Creed videogame series was entertaining up to the third installment, but looking at it now from a Christian perspective, that game is heinous in a subtle way, as most subversive games tend to be."

The very first game was heinous, and I didn't even find it subtle.

Blogger Mark Stoval February 26, 2019 4:36 PM  

My problem with atheism has always been, "where did time, space, matter, and life come from?"

Things don't just pop into existence. There had to be a creator. You can call that creative force "God". I go further and believe that God has revealed himself to me directly. You don't have to believe that, but you do have to explain where "stuff" in our universe came from originally.

Blogger Barbarossa February 26, 2019 5:03 PM  

@63 "Final comment: Christians don't believe what we do because it makes us happy. It's damn hard being a good Christian"

For the win. Nothing like adhering to a moral code that you know you're probably going to fall short of on a daily basis and will definitely violate in numerous significant ways during the course of your life to develop some humility.

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 26, 2019 5:33 PM  

pdwalker wrote:VD wrote:Would love for you to write more on this.

I don't need to do so. JB Bury already did it in 1913.


This one? A History of Freedom of Thought


Read the first 60 pages. Lots of anti-christian bias and erroneous historical assertions. Ironic considering the treatment of appeal to authority.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf February 26, 2019 6:29 PM  

Unfortunately, I became an agnostic atheist (strong). It happened while working on my PhD, so I'm sure I don't have the natural inclination to be atheist. Though I've always been skeptical. Or at least inquisitive. I'm positive that I would have remained Christian of some sorts, had I been born to any other generation than the boomers (my father being one its worse, yet typical, examples).

As an aside, being atheist I find, makes defending Christianity easier. As a matter of fact, I'm positive that the same internal drive to denigrate Christianity, will self-motivate these very same atheists to defend it.

Particularly once they realize clean water depends upon it. Many of them are hammers looking for nails.

Blogger Lamarck Leland February 26, 2019 7:11 PM  

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Blogger SirHamster February 26, 2019 9:24 PM  

Oswald wrote:I haven’t touched your castle. Your castle is falling apart because so many American Christians are availing themselves of sins like gluttony and voting for moderates like Donald Trump.

The castle is falling apart because people in the past took apart the foundation. We're not crediting you with anything, except that you enjoy living in a castle you did not and cannot build.


I know as an atheist that I must say there is no such thing as evil, but I can’t see how the existence of bad acts is to be attributed to anyone but men.

You can feel cold, but you can't tell the actual temperature without an outside reference, like a calibrated thermometer. You can get so cold that you lose the ability to feel that it is cold.

You can feel something is evil, but you can't actually measure the evil without an outside moral reference.

Without a reference, you have no ability to say that one act is more evil than another.

The existence and objectivity of that reference is a piece of reality that atheism does not and cannot account for.

Blogger Toris February 27, 2019 12:12 AM  

"The central defect of atheism, old and new, is it is an entirely negative western identity and entirely dependent on Christianity."

Makes me think of rock bands like Motley Crue, etc. Trying to be all dark and edgy with their lyrics (e.g. Wild Side), "anti Christ", they just reinforced a kind of acknowldgement that the culture they were in was Christian.

Then early 90s, the white male rock 'gods' were snuffed out, contracts vanished, and bands with progressivey messages coincidentally burst on the scene. Very timely.

After the Cold War, I guess the white male Motley Crues of the world weren't exactly a good fit for spreading messages of white guilt, feminism and social justice or generally selling a non-white led, pro-browns multicultural empire.

Could've just been Soundscan though. People enjoy their neutral supply and demand theories.

Blogger inthebriarpatch February 27, 2019 2:21 AM  

"Without a reference, you have no ability to say that one act is more evil than another. 

The existence and objectivity of that reference is a piece of reality that atheism does not and cannot account for."

You have hit upon the ultimate proof for the existence of God.

An atheist can do moral things. An atheist can lead a moral life. But without God, the atheist cannot JUSTIFY those acts.

Without God, there is no good or evil. How can there be? If we are all just blobs of cells, murder is simply one blob eliminating another blob.

If there is no God, abortion is fine. If there is no God, Hitler did nothing wrong.

Relative morality is evil. The slippery slope is real.

"Farting cows are evil." says the atheist, replacing God's word with man's word. Without God, she is right. Evil and good are whatever you define it to be and no definition is any less valid than another.

And Satan laughs.

Blogger Oswald February 27, 2019 11:20 AM  

Peter Gent wrote:Re: voting for moderates like Donald Trump.

So Hillary would have been better?


Trump was elected on build-the-wall not send-them-back.
You could argue that this was the best he could have said, but this is only the case because Christian America is building the tower of babel.
Thanks for getting me to read to the end of TIA, I had stopped halfway through.

Solon wrote:Don't you ever feel lost and confused, flailing about in the darkness?

As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see the River Tiber foaming with much blood.

Solon wrote:Christians don't believe what we do because it makes us happy.

I meant that as an atheist there is no penalty to me professing Christianity whilst not actually having any faith. I’ve seen lots of comments here to the effect that atheists are only atheists to enjoy their sins but it’s the other way round for me.

Mark Stoval wrote:My problem with atheism has always been, "where did time, space, matter, and life come from?"

Things don't just pop into existence


I don’t know. As I understand it, current thinking is that there was no “before” the big bang because the dimension of time was invented at that point.

Meng Greenleaf wrote:Particularly once they realize clean water depends upon it

It doesn’t depend upon Christianity. The Asians have copied all of our technology. I would argue that clean water depends on a stable government, and that neither democracy nor Christianity is necessary for this.

SirHamster wrote:

You can feel cold, but you can't tell the actual temperature without an outside reference, like a calibrated thermometer. You can get so cold that you lose the ability to feel that it is cold.

You can feel something is evil, but you can't actually measure the evil without an outside moral reference.

Without a reference, you have no ability to say that one act is more evil than another.

The existence and objectivity of that reference is a piece of reality that atheism does not and cannot account for.


All very true, but just because having a God would be useful doesn’t mean there is one.

inthebriarpatch wrote:You have hit upon the ultimate proof for the existence of God.



How does this prove God? If God involves faith and not reason how is it possible to prove God?

The Cooler wrote:What is not permitted in the Godless world to which you subscribe? There are ultimately no "bad acts" in a Godless universe.

Not only have you never been in the furnace of doubt, you've never been anywhere near it.


I wasn’t particularly clear here, but my post was getting a little long. I agree, there is no good or bad. In fact, there is no reason to get out of bed, as you will leave the world in the same state as you found it. The reason I used the term bad acts was because as an atheist I can only use the term evil as a rhetorical device.

You are correct however, I have never been anywhere near the furnace of doubt.
I’ve concluded that I’m never going to have faith, and that I should move on.

Blogger SirHamster February 27, 2019 2:32 PM  

Oswald wrote:All very true, but just because having a God would be useful doesn’t mean there is one.

The argument isn't that God is useful. It's that the existence of objective morality is evidence of God, as the source of objective morality. Just like the existence of a shadow is evidence of a light source that casts the shadow.

That objective morality is useful is secondary, but the usefulness is again evidence that it exists and is objective.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf February 27, 2019 7:59 PM  

Oswald wrote:Peter Gent wrote:
Meng Greenleaf wrote:Particularly once they realize clean water depends upon it

It doesn’t depend upon Christianity. The Asians have copied all of our technology. I would argue that clean water depends on a stable government, and that neither democracy nor Christianity is necessary for this.
Have you been to China? Open squat toilets without running water (other than a trench) are quite common.

But sure, I get your point. Maybe it's possible to have running water in a post-Western Civilization. Or, maybe it's not possible. Maybe it's possible to have running water without Law and Philosophy. Or, maybe it's not possible. Maybe European people require Christianity, Law and Philosophy to maintain Civilization/city-living including running water. And running pipes from Japan and Korea to the USA is probably a bridge (or pipe) too far :) We like our running water here :D


That aside: Lets see what 2034 brings to the USA.
Maybe running water? Maybe not....

Blogger Duke Norfolk February 28, 2019 5:29 AM  

Daniel Babylon wrote:Is anybody here a former free-speech advocate? Did you feel at some point that free speech was the most important thing in the world, and to contradict it is one of the greatest evils? Now I don't give a rat's ass about free speech. It's insane how perspectives shift.

Yes, I'm having the same experience (as I'm sure are many others who frequent this site). Same with some other concepts as well, of course.

Like free trade, and freedom of religion (aaagh).

I'm also a recent convert (feels like the wrong word, but it'll do) from atheism -> agnosticism -> Christianity.

Really never thought I'd go through all this. But sooooo glad that I have.

Great thanks to Vox and many other here. God bless.

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