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Friday, March 01, 2019

Fixing conservatism to save the West

The author of The Virtue of Nationalism, Yoram Hazony, is attempting to define a viable alternative to the neo-liberal world order.
The present moment is one of growing discomfort, both in America and in Europe, with the regnant liberal political theory often described as liberal democracy. It is frequently said that the only genuine alternatives to liberal democracy are Marxism and Fascism, but I don’t believe this is true. I want to sketch an alternative viewpoint that I will call conservative democracy. This ­position is closer to the spirit of traditional constitutionalism in both America and Britain than the liberal political theories of our day. Moreover, it is far better equipped to maintain the free institutions of these nations than liberalism.

There are prominent scholars and public figures who are convinced that “things are getting better” in almost every way. As for me, I find it difficult not to see the Western nations disintegrating ­before our eyes. The most significant institutions that have characterized America and Britain for the last five centuries, giving these countries their internal ­coherence and stability—the Bible, public religion, the independent national state, and the traditional family—are not merely under assault. They have been, at least since World War II, in precipitous ­decline.

In the United States, for example, some 40 percent of children are today born outside of marriage. The overall fertility rate has fallen to 1.76 children per woman. American children for the most part receive twelve years of public schooling that is scrubbed clean of God and Scripture. And it is now possible to lose one’s livelihood or even to be prosecuted for maintaining traditional Christian or Jewish views on various subjects.

Add to this the fact that the principal project of European and American political elites for decades now has been the establishment of a “liberal international order” whose aim is to export American norms and values to other nations, and you have a stunning picture of what the United States has become—a picture that in certain respects resembles that of Napoleonic France: an ideologically anti-religious, anti-traditionalist universalist power seeking to bring its version of the Enlightenment to the nations of the world, if necessary by force.
I applaud Hazony's efforts. They are without question an improvement on the current situation. But his efforts are not going to work because Christianity is an integral component of Western Civilization and Hazony's habitual conflation of Judaism with Christianity is far too akin to the anti-Western Judeo-Christianity that is one of the primary causal factors of the decline of the USA and the West. Hazony even appears to understand this on some level:
What is now called “liberal democracy” refers not to the traditional Anglo-­American constitution, but to a rationalist reconstruction of it that has been detached from Protestant religion and the Anglo-American nationalist tradition. Far from being a time-tested form of government, this liberal-democratic ideal is something new to both America and Britain, establishing itself as authoritative only in recent decades.

Traditionally, Americans referred to their form of government as republican government. Indeed, insofar as usage is concerned, the term “liberal democracy” does not become more common in public discussion than the traditional term “republican government” until the 1960s. And it does not achieve its present dominant position in discourse on forms of government (overwhelming even the expression “democratic government”) until the 1990s.

This shift in language is not arbitrary, but reflects a profound reconfiguration at the level of ideas as well: a reconfiguration of what kind of government is considered desirable and legitimate. Roughly speaking, the dominant position of the term “republican government” corresponds to the period in which the Anglo-American conservative tradition remained to some significant degree intact, and so was able to serve as a bulwark against too great a penetration of liberal axioms into public life.

What was a “republican government” in the traditional American conception? A republican government in America was, among other things, one that could see itself as reflecting and reinforcing the values of a “Christian people” (to use a famous phrase of the Supreme Court that continued to be reaffirmed through the 1930s). Indeed, in 1942, FDR was still speaking of the United States as a nation that “hold[s] to the old ideals of Christianity.”

But by 1948 we find, for the first time, the U.S. Supreme Court banning voluntary religious education in public schools that offer simultaneous Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish classes.
Almost everyone wants the fruits of Western Civilization less whatever aspects make them feel uncomfortable or excluded. But they will never attain them, or even preserve them, without accepting and embracing every aspect of it, even if it leaves them on the outside. In any event, it's a well-written article and it's interesting to see an Israeli intellectual defending both nationalism and American Christianity, as well as highlighting the mythology of the "proposition nation". And he is correct to observe that the survival of the West will require the rejection of what he describes as the closed liberal axiom system of Enlightenment-rationalist principles.

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102 Comments:

Blogger andrisf March 01, 2019 8:11 AM  

Few questions do arise from this
1)How can Korea and Japan and soon/now in some areas China have a very decent civilization without Christian religion. If they can can't we? And yes, i realize they are mono racial and mono ethnic countries, but still.
2)How would we return to Christianity. I am not too familiar with situation in USA, as i have not traveled there much, but in Europe Christianity is all but dead. Can it even in theory be revived? If yes then how?

Blogger ZhukovG March 01, 2019 8:13 AM  

If anyone should be aware of what a complete falsehood the concept of a 'Proposition Nation' is, it's an Israeli Jew. Also, if I was an Israeli Jew, I would view the reduction of Christian influence in the United States with alarm.

Blogger ZhukovG March 01, 2019 8:17 AM  

@Andris Falks: Christianity is not 'dead' in Europe. In fact its roots are deeper and stronger by far than ever they were in America. Just because it is Winter does not mean there will be no Spring.

Blogger Meanoldbasterd March 01, 2019 8:19 AM  

It is quite simple, once conditions deteriorate until there is endemic intercine warfare and mass starvation, there will be a significant number of people returning to the church and a huge number of people outside it dropping dead. This trend will continue until the vast majority of those remaining are christians, and then, over about 10 generations or so, the west will recover.

Blogger andrisf March 01, 2019 8:25 AM  

ZhukovG wrote:@Andris Falks: Christianity is not 'dead' in Europe. In fact its roots are deeper and stronger by far than ever they were in America. Just because it is Winter does not mean there will be no Spring.


Do not get me wrong, i would like a true Christianity to return, but i know Europe very well, i have been multiple times in most of countries in current EU, spoken with many people deeply about many issues, including religion and i just do not see spring of Christianity. I may be unable to see it for some reason, but i would put it like this - it is in my opinion as likely that Christianity will be force in Europe as it is likely that Indians in USA will vanquish non Indians and reclaim their land.
I know almost nobody who is younger then 20 who is Christian of any kind. I know some who are older, who would answer they are Christian, but only in words, no church, no bible, they would do nothing about any of issues - abortion, destruction of churches, mosque constructions etc.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 01, 2019 8:26 AM  

I doubt that 1 in 100 of the twitter mob even knows that there is such a thing as the "Enlightenment", they are simply savages, utterly incapable of education. Syllogism is the brutal treatment of a protected class of one or another but they are not sure which, but it's bad, really bad.

Blogger VD March 01, 2019 8:27 AM  

How can Korea and Japan and soon/now in some areas China have a very decent civilization without Christian religion.

Because they are not Western civilizations. Because you're ignorant, you have no idea how brutal and harsh those civilizations are. I've lived in Japan. I am an East Asian Studies major. And I can assure you that those Eastern civilizations would offend your Western sensibilities in a vast panoply of ways.

You would consider them to be indecent in many ways. Functional, yes. Well worthy of respect. But very, very different.

Blogger Mark Stoval March 01, 2019 8:28 AM  

" ... but in Europe Christianity is all but dead. Can it even in theory be revived? If yes then how?"

I recall being told that the USSR had all but killed off Christianity in Russia. We were positive that Russia had become the land of the atheist.

But then the USSR fell and Christianity bloomed once again in Russia. I think that the Russians may be the most Traditional, White, and Christian nation on the planet at this time. If not, they are close.

So, Christianity can bloom if we get the Christianity hating State out of the picture.

Blogger VD March 01, 2019 8:29 AM  

it is in my opinion as likely that Christianity will be force in Europe

Andris, you are both stupid and ignorant. Your opinion not only doesn't count, it serves as a negative compass of sort.

Christianity began with a few frightened men in Jerusalem. All we need are twelve. And we have orders of magnitude more than that in Europe alone.

You really need to stop talking and start listening.

Blogger Gregory the Tall March 01, 2019 8:34 AM  

Only slightly OT: I am just listening to the Hallpike audiobook "Do we need God to be good?"

May I suggest Hillary Clinton, Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey together write a book: "Do we need Good to be God?"

Blogger Mark Stoval March 01, 2019 8:36 AM  

@10

Very Big Grin.

Blogger andrisf March 01, 2019 8:36 AM  

@9
Thank you for your reply.
I have been in both Korea and Japan, i have not been in China outside HK. They do not offend my sensibilities at all, because i have non i can think of. I do listen a lot and i am thank full for content you are providing.
As for me being stupid and ignorant, i am sorry for that.
Concerning 12 men, those were not mere men, those were Disciples of Christ himself. What do we have now? How many priests do you know who are even worthy to be called disciples of disciples of disciples of Christ?
All priests i have known are utter pieces of shit and would sell their soul for money if Devil ever bothered to buy them.

Blogger c0pperheaded March 01, 2019 8:42 AM  

Andris Falks wrote:I know almost nobody who is younger then 20 who is Christian of any kind. I know some who are older, who would answer they are Christian, but only in words, no church, no bible, they would do nothing about any of issues - abortion, destruction of churches, mosque constructions etc.
Find better friends

Blogger c0pperheaded March 01, 2019 8:44 AM  

Andris Falks wrote:@9

Thank you for your reply.

I have been in both Korea and Japan, i have not been in China outside HK. They do not offend my sensibilities at all, because i have non i can think of. I do listen a lot and i am thank full for content you are providing.

As for me being stupid and ignorant, i am sorry for that.

Concerning 12 men, those were not mere men, those were Disciples of Christ himself. What do we have now? How many priests do you know who are even worthy to be called disciples of disciples of disciples of Christ?

All priests i have known are utter pieces of shit and would sell their soul for money if Devil ever bothered to buy them.



I know plenty. Unless you are hanging out with homo priests, I think that you are lying about knowing only priests that are pieces of shit.

Blogger Glaivester March 01, 2019 8:45 AM  

If you are interested in Christianity in Europe, may I suggest that you go to abwe.org*, go to "Support God's work" "Missionaries""one-time gift to a missionary" and do a search for "Europe"
https://myaccount.abwe.org/search.aspx?searchterm=europe&searchtype=Any

There are people out there working for revival if you know where to look.

*Association of Baptists for World Evangelism

Blogger jfreddd March 01, 2019 8:52 AM  

Meanildbastard said: “there will be a significant number of people returning to the church and a huge number of people outside it dropping dead.”

Yes! Then once again the One American Republic Under God will indulgently smile while Brittania proclaims ‘God save the Queen’ and we together keep the damned Krauts and Froggiez scrapping... peaceably, of course.

Oh, hell, can one not dream?

Blogger jfreddd March 01, 2019 8:53 AM  

The above in no way insincere nor sarcastic.

Blogger jfreddd March 01, 2019 9:04 AM  

Perhaps Poland provides a model. As EU oppression becomes more vicious, ‘national churches’ will provide a foundation for cultural revival alongside some very nasty guerilla actions against local Babylonish Hierophants.

Blogger Crave March 01, 2019 9:11 AM  

Vox nailed the answer to Andris' question. It should also be pointed out that Christianity is growing among those Nations. Hopefully it can outpace the parasitical poz that's creeping into these increasingly powerful and wealthy populations.

Blogger Johnny March 01, 2019 9:13 AM  

My crystal ball says that either we settle into being Brazil North, close to failed state status, or we endure a period of chaos where being in the political class is riding the tiger with difficult to predict outcomes.

Blogger JG March 01, 2019 9:14 AM  

Western civilization without Christianity is like a car without gasoline.

Blogger Nathan March 01, 2019 9:17 AM  

Meanwhile, more persons on the right are trying the J. Goldberg-ish route (this book just recently out):

https://www.amazon.com/Unjust-Social-Justice-Unmaking-America/dp/1621577929

Recent interviews heard with the author:

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-ezra-klein-show/e/58980585

https://thefederalist.com/2019/02/06/noah-rothman-on-the-convoluted-ideology-of-social-justice/

Blogger VD March 01, 2019 9:21 AM  

No more comments today, Andris Falks. You're trying to monopolize the comments and take them off-topic. If you want to ramble on about your own life, opinions, and suspicions, go start your own blog.

Blogger tz March 01, 2019 9:24 AM  

Back before the revolutions, Wall Street and the instutionas were WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant), who had a very long time preference. Europeans build cathedrals. As it became more Jewish and otherwise diverse, these long term partnerships and forever companies like GE were sold, monetized, sliced, and diced.

The robber barons were not robbers. They were often the most creative and efficient. And charitable. Even with my problems over Bill Gates, he is trying to help people, not run the world.

A Christian differs in kind from others. We have the holy spirit and an effective resistance to temptation. Not all who say they are Christian are, but you see that the African Methodists resisted and fought temptation and error and won.

For years, I've pointed out the most important thing is to pray for the 3rd great awakening. The 12 didn't have the swords and all but 1 was martyred. Yet they defeated the pagans. Jerusalem was destroyed because it refused to repent.

There are a handful of Rabbis that realize this (Daniel Lapin - he was on the Glenn Beck podcast last weekend and it is worth a listen).

If there is a lesson of the Old Testament and the Jews, it is that even with God's presence in the tabernacle and Temple, and with Prophets, Jews will do the wrong thing. Before the Babylonian exile they worshiped idols. Afterward they worshipped the "law" which they metasticized into the Talmud, negating the Torah.

Even for all our small denominational disputes over what the bible says, anyone who was honest could see how obvious it was that Jesus was their messiah. But it took an intervention on the Damascus road for Saul of Tarsis.

Blogger tz March 01, 2019 9:30 AM  

Also, Christianity is not dead. It isn't even that weak if you know where to look, and it isn't the Hillary Archipelago. They never show it on the MSM - but that is Fake News by omission. The big names are the hypocritical Televangelists. And the Churchians.

Where I'm at there is one Churchian church. The small church down the road, the Presbyterian and Methodist churches, and even the Catholic church are still Christian and full.

It started to get militant with the paradox of Trump. It will get moreso. It is a virtue to avoid fighting, but when it is necessary, well look at the two world wars last century.

Blogger Stilicho March 01, 2019 9:36 AM  

The quoted author is moving in the right direction and his proposed solution is, in essence, the return to our culture, religion and historical/political norms. Mich like is advocated on this blog every day. Perhaps he can even convince some of his brethren in Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Florida to follow suit or at least to stop trying to destroy those things. One can dream.

Blogger Northpal March 01, 2019 9:38 AM  

Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

Blogger sammibandit March 01, 2019 9:42 AM  

No one cares. Lurk moar. Read Galatians.

Blogger Lazarus March 01, 2019 9:55 AM  

Particularly like this bit.

Having displaced the older biblical worldview that had given these institutions life, liberalism has, in the course of a few generations, severely damaged all of them. The current political reality of disintegrating national states, ruined families, and eviscerated religious traditions is the direct consequence of the embrace of liberal dogma as a kind of universal salvation creed throughout much of the West. At this point, liberalism is widely accepted as a substitute for tradition, wisdom, and empiricism—which is another way of saying that it has replaced competent reasoning as well.

Blogger Son of Blob March 01, 2019 9:57 AM  

The most significant institutions that have characterized America and Britain for the last five centuries, giving these countries their internal ­coherence and stability—the Bible, public religion, the independent national state, and the traditional family—

If these institutions once again became the pillars of our society, would they be able to heal the racial divide in this country? Or how does it tie in with our ever-growing pockets of Nations within a nation? How would it affect multiple races and ethnicities and religions?
I'm asking this question as a student would a professor in a classroom.

Blogger Ingemar March 01, 2019 9:59 AM  

Give OG Brazil a little more credit. They are finally accepting that they have to purge the Marxists. Baby steps, but still.

Blogger Poco March 01, 2019 10:00 AM  

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwFryQlF-IDklVuKU1Kf_oKHgj9_nOunf

This Orthodox deacon in Oklahoma City is really good.

Blogger Crave March 01, 2019 10:01 AM  

Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

Sounds like papist pap.

Blogger VD March 01, 2019 10:11 AM  

Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

That's impossible. The Protestant Reformation predates Judeo-Christianity by 440 years.

Blogger Johnny March 01, 2019 10:15 AM  

>>The robber barons were not robbers. They were often the most creative and efficient. And charitable. Even with my problems over Bill Gates, he is trying to help people, not run the world.

I agree that we are better of as a result of these people, and often a lot better off. But the great return they had to society was and is what is sometimes called rationalizing production. That is turning out the most product at the lowest cost. The equation is,

Efficiency = Wealth

But the other side of it is that when they weren't proving how chartable they were, they could be remarkably ruthless sometimes, completely disregarding the interests of their employees and society.

The other side of it is government, given to charity with other peoples money while fostering inefficiencies that make everybody poorer.

Blogger Servant of the Chief March 01, 2019 10:15 AM  

Honestly the sooner we do away with democracy as a primacy in our political discourse the sooner we can begin to seriously mitigate its evils and abuses, but the progs and the commies need to be dealt with first.

It is rather telling that the teaching of Rhetoric and Logic classes declined rapidly across the board in every country with the rise of republicanism and democracy in the West. Funny how it was inconvenient for the average man to able to tell the difference between rhetoric and dialectic in an era when those skills were more necessary than ever.

Blogger Desdichado March 01, 2019 10:19 AM  

I was pretty impressed with his book, and he seems like a sharp guy, but he's insane if he thinks anyone would be fired or unpersoned for being a practicing Jew in America.

Blogger Johnny March 01, 2019 10:20 AM  

>>Give OG Brazil a little more credit. They are finally accepting that they have to purge the Marxists. Baby steps, but still.

Brazil is convenient because they are on our scale and more messed up than we are, at least for now. I know a lot more about Mexico. Mexico is the way they are trying to make us. Demographically diverse. That in turn jerks up their politics. Brazil will do well if they can overcome their demographics, and I doubt it can be done. Otherwise I wish the people well.

Blogger McChuck March 01, 2019 10:22 AM  

@27 - America was founded on Protestant ethics. "You ain't the boss of me!" was never uttered in any Catholic nation.

The current deplorable state of the Protestant churches is mirrored by the deplorable state of the Catholic church. The ultimate problem is the Leftist denial of reality, and their careful and methodical infiltration and destruction of every institution. Rust never sleeps.

Blogger Oswald March 01, 2019 10:28 AM  

Andris Falks wrote:a very decent civilization without Christian religion.

I read an account somewhere of a European traveller to China 100s of years ago. He stated that if someone fell from a boat in a harbour that nobody would stop to help them. I refused to believe it. SerpentZA has recently put out a video where he shows that Chinese people still refuse to help those in need.

I think it’s a very modern thing to equate material wealth with civilisation.

Andris Falks wrote:Can it even in theory be revived? If yes then how?

It seems to me that the low church atheists could easily become Christians in harder times.

I don’t think the biggest problem Christianity has is numbers, it's that the Church leaders are cucks.

The illness is the cure. Christianity is a far superior mechanism for organising people than Atheism.
During the 2033 collapse, people will return to Churches that worship God rather than churchianity because these churches are better at organising people.

Blogger freddie_mac March 01, 2019 10:30 AM  

@30 John Russo

The most significant institutions that have characterized America and Britain for the last five centuries, giving these countries their internal ­coherence and stability—the Bible, public religion, the independent national state, and the traditional family—

If these institutions once again became the pillars of our society, would they be able to heal the racial divide in this country? Or how does it tie in with our ever-growing pockets of Nations within a nation? How would it affect multiple races and ethnicities and religions?


The first problem that comes to mind is that the interpretation of traditional pillars (i.e., public religion, traditional family) differs widely across ethnicities.

For example, Europeans = Christianity + monogamy; Africans = ? Middle Easterners = Muslim (most Christians having been exterminated) + polygamy, etc. With this in mind, I'd say that multiethnic societies aren't compatible with traditional pillars of any culture.

Blogger Johnny March 01, 2019 10:53 AM  

>>SerpentZA has recently put out a video where he shows that Chinese people still refuse to help those in need.

Orientals do seem to be more ruthless than we are. But they can be very self sacrificial for their own in group or family. And so I am not convinced that it is an absence of morals so much as a different moral sensibility.

Blogger David The Good March 01, 2019 10:57 AM  

VD wrote:Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

That's impossible. The Protestant Reformation predates Judeo-Christianity by 440 years.


...and someone obviously hasn't read their Luther, to boot.

Blogger Damelon Brinn March 01, 2019 10:58 AM  

The current deplorable state of the Protestant churches is mirrored by the deplorable state of the Catholic church.

Yep. None of us has anything to brag about. We all need to avoid the pissing matches and get to work.

Blogger David The Good March 01, 2019 10:58 AM  

Johnny wrote:>>SerpentZA has recently put out a video where he shows that Chinese people still refuse to help those in need.

Orientals do seem to be more ruthless than we are. But they can be very self sacrificial for their own in group or family. And so I am not convinced that it is an absence of morals so much as a different moral sensibility.


Christian Chinese raised almost a year's income for my mother in donations when my father died in an accident. He had been a teacher and mentor in their church. You would be amazed at their generosity for people they consider inside their group.

Blogger Johnny March 01, 2019 11:02 AM  

>>The most significant institutions that have characterized America and Britain for the last five centuries, giving these countries their internal ­coherence and stability—the Bible, public religion, the independent national state, and the traditional family—

>>If these institutions once again became the pillars of our society, would they be able to heal the racial divide in this country? Or how does it tie in with our ever-growing pockets of Nations within a nation? How would it affect multiple races and ethnicities and religions?

By my lights there is a core problem in the way you are thinking about this. A strong affiliation in one area produces a weak affiliation in another. You can't be nationalist and internationalist at the same time. Attachments inside the family weaken attachments outside the family. If you truly believe in your own religion then other religions are false. Universal brotherhood does not make everybody your brother, it makes your brother a stranger. It is choices. You don't get to have everything every way.

Blogger Nate73 March 01, 2019 11:03 AM  

It's interesting the Supreme Court in the 30s was willing to affirm the USA as a Christian nation. To reject the Enlightenment would require a constitutional convention at the very least to reject the one we have, because

Blogger Nobody of Consequence March 01, 2019 11:10 AM  

Things to read (no order):
1) The 1647 Westminister Confession - Pope = antichrist
2) Wealth of Nations on the discussion of the far east
3) The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States
4) YOUR Bible, old testament for history, new testament asking guidance from Christ
5) Too many others to mention right now. Read something new EVERY day and I'm not talking blogs.

Blogger CM March 01, 2019 11:19 AM  

Did you finish reading Hazony's book? Was it sound?

I have a sample downloaded and want to buy it but was waiting for the overall assessment of it.

What bits you've offered sound like it is an excellent apologetic of nationalism.

Anonymous Anonymous March 01, 2019 11:24 AM  

Western civilization can buy itself time and reduce the scale and magnitude of pending conflict by changing the infrastructure of government service delivery.

Many of us handle data. I was once sent a speech given by a Catholic New Zealand Minister of Finance. He did three unique things:

1) Have actuaries determine an aggregate liability valuation of the lifetime welfare costs of all people receiving government welfare net transfers - which equated to 40% of annual GDP. What that gives you is a longitudinal model of the future costs of current government net transfers. Net present values are transformative for governance. Individuals receiving welfare are actually a tiny fraction of long-term liability - in NZ it was only 4%. You find to whatever extent this evaluation is undertaken, that cohorts no one considers comprise the majority of long-term costs. Recent exits from the labour market. Functional people with 'moderate' psychiatric conditions. Ex-prisoners. It also shows accurately the true scale of what everyone suspects intuitively - the highest NPV of future costs is sole parents under 20. As in the insurance industry - government should direct it's resource at the highest risk cohorts - the highest NPV's:

2) Build an integrated data infrastructure for government, a genuine, with working safeguards for privacy.

It's so effective they could build up 75% of their entire national social spend from individualised records. It's incredible what aggregated data from 9million individuals (data banks apparently related to overseas and deceased individuals) from 12 plus government agencies can provide in terms of insight. We focus here a lot on IQ. But the risk of non-educational achievement is not normally distributed. That is, even children with recorded or suspected high IQ's failed at high rates - the model reveals the actual characteristics that create quantified risks for definite cohorts of kids. National ethnicity is certainly the major factor. But there are other factors. The aggregations of data let them build extremely accurate risk profiles where with reasonable certainty they could extrapolate a kids NPV liability to taxpayers (belying a life of suffering and dysfunction) based on definite risk factors.

3) Use both of the above with templated cost-benefit tools for NGO's to weed out all the 90% of programs that are useless and do nothing and don't work.

As a result - NZ unlike the United States, was able to run balanced budgets with massive surpluses. The guy lost the election to a vapid Roastie Trudeau, because it looks like the supposed 'nationalist' party literally called New Zealand First went Left (they recently signed the UN Migration Compact) in a coalition thought anathema to them. But from a data-perspective what he did is epochal. Because they achieved it all with virtually no fiscal head-room whatsoever.

What's also interesting is that he was a force behind coalition with indigenous nationalists as a centre-right government. By basing the data in wanting to solve intractable social problems, even though it showed basically that brown people are the problem, the brown people still worked with them.

My point is that there is still scope, even within the failing liberal international order, for reform which rehabilitates and re-invigorates existing converged institutions - even if the individuals populating them are SJW's. It requires superlative political will and acumen. But it can be done. With people like Vox and that dude, you can see why you do indeed, only need 12. Only 12. And not all diverse people are totally deprived of integrity or goodwill. ((Many)) are. But not all, even there.







Blogger Long Live The West March 01, 2019 11:26 AM  

"1)How can Korea and Japan and soon/now in some areas China have a very decent civilization without Christian religion. If they can can't we? And yes, i realize they are mono racial and mono ethnic countries, but still."

China is by no means mono ethnic. The difference, is that they subdue their minority populations. America virtue signals by letting them get into positions of power. And of course once the foot is in the door it all goes downhill.

Blogger Son of Blob March 01, 2019 11:49 AM  

@Johnny

I appreciate the input. the reason I said I'm posing the question as a student in a classroom is because I want to know the opinions and thoughts of people that are a lot smarter than me. I think the same as you do actually. Have a nice weekend.

Blogger Son of Blob March 01, 2019 11:51 AM  

@freddie_mac

Thank you, that's a whole new way for me to think about it. Now I have more ammo to defend my position. Have a nice weekend.

Blogger The Cooler March 01, 2019 11:51 AM  

Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

Did you receive your Revelation before or after praying to Saint Cletus, Patron Saint of Toilets?

Anonymous Anonymous March 01, 2019 12:14 PM  

I'm sorry that I somewhat garbled my comment.

But the consequence of a longitudinal Net-Present-Value + aggregated government data approach to public policy and funding is that you can nullify identity politics to a high degree even in a diverse society like Australia or New Zealand.

Because being able to use aggregated public data to determine causations and risks behind social outcomes greatly reduces the the causative uncertainty gap the left fills with things like equalitarianism and intersectionality. Even for leftists. What the Finance Minister said was that the sheer power of the model to achieve better social outcomes simply rendered all the leftist rhetoric irrelevant - even to many leftist activists.

And when you set up your public funding mechanisms on an investment model where all applicants have to demonstrate NPV and data-capacities it provides a filtering tool that can't be attributed to racism etc.

So for example, if the SPLC was unable or unwilling to show it had data management capacity and forecasting to show actual benefits of it's activities, you can starve it of funding. And how can you argue against policy that is simply there to ensure the people getting taxpayers money can actually do their jobs? If private sources of funding are involved, simply separate the funding from service delivery, which achieves the same thing.

So without doing much, you can quite quickly shrink government, even as public services improve at the margin, whilst depriving the enemies of the West oxygen. I have no doubts that social investment model is the future of government, and if adopted, could delay the West's dissolution, and maybe, have an infinitesimal chance of preventing it.

Blogger Nate March 01, 2019 12:15 PM  

something I notice... in the UMC when we started pushing for stricter rules and more accountability... not just rejecting the Progressive changes... but actively pushing the line ourselves.. they stopped calling us conservatives. They started calling us Traditionalists.

I don't know why this happened. I just know it happened. I also know we didn't do it ourselves. It was something they did.

Blogger VD March 01, 2019 12:18 PM  

Did you finish reading Hazony's book? Was it sound?

Pretty sound. 7 of 10. The main flaw is that he entirely focused on the positive influences of the Jewish nation and shied away from discussing any of the negative ones.

Blogger Solon March 01, 2019 12:21 PM  

If you were truly sorry for being stupid and ignorant, you would stop pushing your stupidity and ignorance on this blog. Your actions betray your words.

Also, no sensibilities at all? So you wouldnt consider corruption, lies, and murder insensible?

If you call yourself a Christian, stop. You're a liar and a snake, and we don't want or need you on our team. You'd be far closer to Judas than Peter.

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 12:27 PM  

I've been to europe couple of times and Christianity in there is not dead yet well from the outside yes, but you didn't try to look into it more

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 12:29 PM  

Exactly

Blogger Solon March 01, 2019 12:29 PM  

Around here, Judeo-Christianity is an insult.

Come on now, why is it everyone is always trying to restart the Thirty Year's War around here?

Catholics have problems. Protestants have problems.

But we both believe in Christ and His teachings. There's no reason to hurl insults at one another. We have FAR bigger issues to worry about.

And Judeo-Christianity makes about as much sense as Judeo-Islam. Let's leave it at that.

Blogger DonReynolds March 01, 2019 12:34 PM  

I don't know what is going to happen.
Clearly, this country has been changing for a long time and the present direction does not look good. I would even say it is unsustainable.

It may not be possible to "save" this country, much less Western Civilization, from itself, certainly not intact. This is especially true, given that nobody is pulling on the ropes or even talking about it. There is no agreement going forward, other than trending to the Left, or some vulgar version of the Left.

We still cling to the 18th century Constitution, mostly because we fear what will replace it, so the jurists twist and distort it's original meaning, even completely reversing it. The only method for countermanding the judges is by constitutional amendment. That takes a level of agreement that simply does not exist.

The Congress is a failed institution and can no longer even produce a budget. The only legislation that interests them these days is petty and partisan, anything to frustrate the president. The same problems fester and inflame for decades at a time.

Democracy is not even worth discussing and the Republic is becoming more of a central government, at the expense of the people and the states. Ordinary street crimes are now a Federal matter... So are preferred pronouns and bathroom assignment and homosexual marriages.

There was a time when I feared this country might fail. Then I started to think it was possible, and after that it looked to be likely. Now, it looks to be a certainty, but I no longer think of it as a bad thing when it does.

Yes, there are thousand different ways this can happen, some we cannot even think possible today. We do not face a foreign enemy, but a domestic one... and they have no interest in negotiation or compromise or deals. They want us to surrender or be gone from this world, which is the same situation with the UK and the EU.

There may not be a peaceful solution. Yes, it may be more practical for the UK to help pull the EU apart, than try to leave it. In the US, by the same token, the part of the country that most objects to what is happening in Washington, may find it more practical to help pull down the Federal government than try to leave it.

Blogger eclecticme March 01, 2019 12:35 PM  

@1. Andris Falks March 01, 2019 8:11 AM

Few questions do arise from this
1)How can Korea and Japan and soon/now in some areas China have a very decent civilization without Christian religion. If they can can't we? And yes, i realize they are mono racial and mono ethnic countries, but still. ...


Good question. I have wondered the same thing. Many aspects I find offensive e.g. no good Samaritans, cruelty to animals, no assistance or good will outside of family. Then again it is not Mad Max,they have indoor plumbing, and the streets are often safe. SerpentZA and friends do provide a good picture of what China is like.

The SCOTUS destroyed most of the glue that held the US together, especially Christianity, and would destroy any Chinese or Hindu cultural glue if given the chance. They and the US fed govt also destroyed most local control that could have managed solutions if given the authority.

If the SCOTUS had not enforced the Bill of Rights against the state govts then at least one state, then more, would have prayer in school, policies against teenagers having children out of wedlock and receiving welfare, etc.

The first rule of the SCOTUS is that there shall be no other gods than the secular nine gods they are. They would destroy any civilization.

Blogger eclecticme March 01, 2019 1:00 PM  

I have some examples re my post at @63 above, ones that bothered me over time.

1. Of course outlawing prayer in schools and providing most support to religious schools. Even Russia now teaches Christianity in public schools.

2. The SCOTUS ruled that traditional morality is no basis for laws.

3. SCOTUS ruled that laws against bastardy, out of wedlock births etc. have no rational basis.

4. SCOTUS ruled that a state cannot have a waiting period for welfare because that interferes with the right to interstate travel.

5. Fed courts destroyed neighborhoods with court ordered busing. They held that even where the fed govt could not order a state to do something they could withhold funding.

6. Dubuque IA provided public housing with priority for their residents. The Obama fed govt decided that was racists and sued to force them to take people from Chicago IL, 3 hours drive away.

Even if I preferred Chinese/Japanese/Korean civilization, there is no way to make us them. Also, the secular govt would destroy that civilization also. See the examples above.

Blogger Garuna March 01, 2019 1:09 PM  

Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

You sure?

Blogger OneWingedShark March 01, 2019 1:19 PM  

DonReynolds wrote:We still cling to the 18th century Constitution, mostly because we fear what will replace it, so the jurists twist and distort it's original meaning, even completely reversing it. The only method for countermanding the judges is by constitutional amendment. That takes a level of agreement that simply does not exist.
This twisting is the practical application of "pilpul", and it's why the law-schools/traditions place such high value on 'precedent', elevating it above the actual text/law.

Blogger Blacksmith Zeke March 01, 2019 1:22 PM  

Long Live The West wrote:"1)How can Korea and Japan and soon/now in some areas China have a very decent civilization without Christian religion. If they can can't we? And yes, i realize they are mono racial and mono ethnic countries, but still."

China is by no means mono ethnic. The difference, is that they subdue their minority populations. America virtue signals by letting them get into positions of power. And of course once the foot is in the door it all goes downhill.


Splitting hairs. Monoethnic == subduing minority populations. For example, in the 18th century, the United States was monoethnic, depite the odd Indian, Chinaman, or African slave.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd March 01, 2019 1:25 PM  

David The Good wrote:

Christian Chinese raised almost a year's income for my mother in donations when my father died in an accident. He had been a teacher and mentor in their church. You would be amazed at their generosity for people they consider inside their group.


As your in-group shrinks, you can do more for each member of it. Chinese are kind, loving and generous with their own. For Chinese Christians, that in-group can extend beyond blood ties. They still aren't Americans.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 01, 2019 1:25 PM  

Nate wrote:but actively pushing the line ourselves.. they stopped calling us conservatives. They started calling us Traditionalists.
Trads are capable of winning, because we have a positive vision and a goal. Conservatives are not capable of winning, because they have only a negative reaction.
They call you a Traditionalist because you are no longer a Conservative. You are an actual enemy, one they have to fight, not an object of mockery putting up token resistance. Whatever progress we've made in the Catholic Church in this fight has been made by Traditionalists.
Welcome to the party pal.

Blogger JohnofAustria March 01, 2019 1:34 PM  

The time is past for conservation, because almost nothing is left. Now is the time to fight to create a new society. Or lay the foundations to do that.

Blogger JohnofAustria March 01, 2019 1:37 PM  

Whoa there, Papist here who agrees that historically that's brain-dead. Also ignorant of Luther.

Blogger eclecticme March 01, 2019 1:39 PM  

@50. YclepedBobAli March 01, 2019 11:24 AM

Western civilization can buy itself time and reduce the scale and magnitude of pending conflict by changing the infrastructure of government service delivery. ....


NZ has around 5 million mostly white people, similar in size to the state of MN. MN might have a chance of implementing something similar but the fed govt has has forced fed law on most aspects of govt. If not MN because of the Scandicucks then another state of similar size.

Even if realizing where money should be better spent acting on that information would likely be against fed law. Fed law requires that hospitals and schools accept illegal aliens yet forbids states from enforcing fed immigration laws. The feds then pay some fed money to the schools and hospitals to spread the cost over the entire US.

MN could probably make 'national' health care work, if freed from all fed govt regulation and laws, especially the SCOTUS interpreted Bill of Rights. New Zealand and Norway, of similar size, make it work.

See Mark Steyn: Lights out for U.S.-style Big Government
https://www.ocregister.com/2012/07/08/mark-steyn-lights-out-for-us-style-big-government/

Blogger JohnofAustria March 01, 2019 1:39 PM  

The racial divide does not heal, rather attempts to bridge it are contrary to human nature, and so can only be sustained by great effort. The more of the divide you wish to erase, the greater effort you must maintain.

The rise of IdPol is just the rubber band snapping back as the bridges collapse under increasing strain.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd March 01, 2019 1:41 PM  

If you are a conservative, you are fighting to save ancient traditions like gay marriage and the income tax.

If you want to destroy our existing Leftist dystopia and return to our actual, traditional culture and beliefs, you are no conservative, you are a reactionary.

Blogger sammibandit March 01, 2019 2:41 PM  

In a small group of 20 I know how to get rid of degenerates. You shun them and/or recruit a group of people with high extraversion and low trait agreeableness and moderate to high conscientiousness to harangue the degenerates until they leave. Ypu posse up. I don't know how that scales to a large society, however.

Yesterday we talked in the free speech thread about shunning and outlawing. By way of example I want to talk about how pagan nordics dealt with people who were a burden to social cohesion. They were outlawed by declaring during daylight, in public that the target was outlawed and now subject to be killed if they didn't leave. The killing would only be sanctioned by declaring during the day and in public that you planned to kill the outlaw. On the next day after that declaration you could kill the outlaw. Nighttime declarations were prohibited.

This tradition has two conservative elements we could translate to the Christian tradition called witnesses.

1. Witness as one day.

In the letters of Paul to the Corinithians he notes that 2 or 3 witnesses are needed to make an accusation. It is clear that he means 2 or 3 days where accusations are made with an offer to the accused to redress.

2. Witness as a person.

Paul made his accusations, afaik, on the basis of several sources telling him about the Corinthians. These were not accusations without cortoborating persons.

Compare to the nordic outlaw tradition where accusations of outlawry are made during the day and in public. The declaration that killing could remedy the situation would serve as the second witness. And the third day that killing could take place would be the second witness.

My proposal is simple, if not naive. Reinstitute outlawry in a less punitive form. Whether this means outlawing degenerates or recognizing that we are outlaws is up to you. We can only steel our traditions by using them.

Blogger Jack Amok March 01, 2019 2:49 PM  

If these institutions once again became the pillars of our society, would they be able to heal the racial divide in this country? Or how does it tie in with our ever-growing pockets of Nations within a nation?

The hope those institutions hold out for race relations is they might return them to a functional state - separate nations dealing with each other as nations, not a bunch of people with incompatible belief systems and cultural expectations trying to live in each other's neighborhoods and meddle in each other's politics.

Blogger sammibandit March 01, 2019 2:59 PM  

Postmodernists are correct when they observe that institutions are not accountable to the individual. Given that and how atomizing multikulti is, it's not plausible that institutions could heal racial divide. If institutions cannot be accountable to individuals in one nation, they cannot be accountable to individuals of many nations in one state.

68 IQ Mohammed Ali was right. Segregation is the way to go.

Blogger Mr Darcy March 01, 2019 3:47 PM  

@18 jfreddd:

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/polish-bishops-and-president-duda-declare-christ-king-poland

Blogger Lovekraft March 01, 2019 3:57 PM  

I would guess that 1% of humanity's history enjoyed a complete balance and peace, where each and every tribe, nation etc neither took nor was take from. Mutual interests across the world.

One could wonder what the world would be like if God, in some alternate reality, gave each race (in the general sense) an equal, but separate tract of the globe. Yes, science fiction, but it is part of the overall question: will there ever be some balance between respect for each race and their ability to express their wills?

When national boundaries are formed, how much divine inspiration goes into it, is what I'm wondering.

Blogger SirHamster March 01, 2019 4:09 PM  

Johnny wrote:Orientals do seem to be more ruthless than we are. But they can be very self sacrificial for their own in group or family. And so I am not convinced that it is an absence of morals so much as a different moral sensibility.

That's low-trust tribalism in action. Random stranger getting hurt -> not my tribe, not my problem. Family getting hurt? Move heaven and earth to help.

In Western Civ with a Christian foundation, that stranger is your neighbor and you have the duty of the Good Samaritan to protect and restore.

That in turn is a foundation for a high trust society where the nation as a whole acts as a unified tribe.

High trust allows much achievement, but is vulnerable to low-trust infiltrators abusing that trust.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 01, 2019 5:07 PM  

@61
And Judeo-Christianity makes about as much sense as Judeo-Islam.

Actually it makes considerably less sense.

http://www.judaism-islam.com/similarities-between-judaism-and-islam/

Blogger rumpole5 March 01, 2019 6:14 PM  

I took care to keep my son out of government run schools entirely, and even aswitched him to a more orthodox Christian, classical model school after 5th grade. Then he went on to attend the largest Baptist University in the world. Much to my wife and my surprise, he became Roman Catholic while there, but he has remained very much a devout Christian, and he has always had no trouble finding a circle of like young friends. He also has no difficulty engaging in a large combo of online chats, groups, and productions devoted to Christian issues. There is a vibrant, spirit led, movement of young Christians operating through out the world. And I truly believe that they will inherit the earth after the declining diseased angry libertines have burned themselves out.

Blogger papabear March 01, 2019 7:09 PM  

@82 Roman Catholics at Baylor strike again?

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:05 PM  

Yeah some of the atheist i know converted about 2-4 years ago, but i'm a little bit late lol

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:06 PM  

Can confirm, yeah some of them are very ruthless to other ethnic group, you can see it in indonesia, maybe because the native hate our guts too lol

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:12 PM  

Lmao nine secular gods

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:13 PM  

Any civilization can be destroyed

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:14 PM  

Of course they aren't and never will be

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:15 PM  

He never claim to be conservative though just unauthorized right

Blogger rumpole5 March 01, 2019 8:23 PM  

The priest who recruited him was from Nigeria -- very very dynamic fellow. However the boy (turning 30 next week) claims that his studies of the church fathers convinced him. I blame his classical education also. In a summer program we sent him to at Thomas More college in New Hampshire he told us that he was the only one in the class who could name the seven sacrements of the Catholic faith. His Presbyterian high school English teacher had earlier made the class memorize the sacrements while studying a book on cultural literacy. Thinking deeply sometimes has unexpected consequences.

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:24 PM  

Can confirm maybe because twitter lol yeah basically all the young catholics orthodox, converted around 18-25 years old, and the same as me

Blogger Birdman March 01, 2019 8:26 PM  

Yeah, most of the traditional theology and philosophy really convincing that's why i'm catholic orthodox enthusiast, even though i'm raised prots

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2019 3:57 AM  

Andris Falks wrote:Few questions do arise from this

1)How can Korea and Japan and soon/now in some areas China have a very decent civilization without Christian religion. If they can can't we? And yes, i realize they are mono racial and mono ethnic countries, but still.



I am not as optimistic about the Japanese. The number of third world migrants has exploded here in recent years. In Tokyo they dominate the unskilled labor jobs (cheap restaurants, convenience stores) and are now branching out into things like construction. And this is before new laws come into effect to import 500-600K more and plow them into the blue collar fields. Of course, the locals say they hate the changes but it is all excused by muh demographics.
And don't underestimate the extent to which the US operates as the base from which evil institutions spread warped (((leftist))) values. Japan is plugged into the international economy so it is thoroughly exposed to propaganda from "American" media, academia, NGOs, churches, etc. There is a large population among the young, especially women, who have been almost as thoroughly indoctrinated as American undergrads.

Of course, these problems are laughably small at this point compared to the West, especially the US, and they aren't doing anything so criminally stupid as giving these foreigners citizenship. But, considering it only took about 30 years for the US to be destroyed, things could flip very quickly in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if it is destroyed in 10-15 years (although I still give a slight greater probability to them eventually kicking these people out).

Blogger wreckage March 02, 2019 4:02 AM  

My thought was that Hazony understood the underlying necessity of Christianity, and in his mind for the Anglo world, protestantism, to the nations of that respective tradition, but claimed that the first and perhaps typal example of a nation-but-not-empire was ancient Israel.

In short, I don't think he quite means "Judeo-Christian" in "that way".

Blogger Jew613 March 02, 2019 9:03 AM  

Wreckage, Hazony never used the phrase Judeo-Christianity in the essay.

Vox, Hazony's twitter feed is a goldmine. From defending Tolkien(apparently the process of unpersoning has started), to retweeting articles on the Christian ideals that made Western civ possible, to arguing for tradition; its a must read.

This is a thread he wrote recently on receiving tradition from your parents.

"If you're capable of honoring your parents, trusting them, treating their teachings with awe, then you're capable of inheriting the traditions they received from their parents.

If you're not capable of honoring your parents, then you're free. But mostly free to fall hard.

What if your parents had already severed the threads of the tradition, and told you, mostly, to "do what's right for you"? That's the condition of most Western countries today.

You'll have to do it the hard way. You'll have to invest in finding the thread of the tradition again. This is most likely in orthodox religious communities, in their older members, and in the books that they read.

Give them honor. Teach yourself to hold sacred the things they hold sacred. In return, they may still be able to restore to you--your own heritage.

If you are a parent, do not think that you can fufill your responsibilities to your children by telling them to "do what's right for you." That's an evasion. They don't need you for that. They need you to teach them which way is right.

In any case, every child will decide what is right for them. But they can never fully replace the vacuum that has been left in their lives by parents who gave them freedom, and left them to find the way in the darkness, all alone.

A parent is a child's guide for life. Not until they are 18 or 20. For their entire lives. And when they have children of their own, they need their parents--parents who teach them the way--all the more."

Blogger Northpal March 02, 2019 12:52 PM  

@PapiJohnofAustria
"Whoa there, Papist here who agrees that historically that's brain-dead. Also ignorant of Luther"

You mean Jewther?
Twelve Articles that started the princes looting operations of Church property, but Luther was furious at the idea that he emboldened peasants to shake off feudalism and started the rebellion.
Beholden to the ruling class and jews who protected and enriched him, Luther condemned the peasants' revolt and called for its brutal suppression, enabling the bloody demise of more than 100,000 peasants.
THAT LUTHER ????

Blogger Northpal March 02, 2019 1:09 PM  

@VD
"Judeo-Christianity = Protestantism

That's impossible. The Protestant Reformation predates Judeo-Christianity by 440 years."

Hmmm........terms that describe actions are more times given long after the event.
Creation of a thousand sects with a thousand interpretations by thousands of self made Popes = CONSTANT REVOLUTION...hmmmm.......wonder what group of people share THAT trait???

Blogger Northpal March 02, 2019 1:19 PM  

@McChuck
"current deplorable state of the Protestant churches is mirrored by the deplorable state of the Catholic church"

Ain't that the truth, fallen men, it seems to me it is a devious psyche job to get people to leave the Church. But, the Church is and always has been the the body of the people held up by the foundation of Jesus Christ. If we maintain that faith, we will never lose.

Blogger Northpal March 02, 2019 1:31 PM  

@Johnny
"The robber barons were not robbers. They were often the most creative and efficient. And charitable."
They might have started out that way but once they got on top they used every tool, government and banking being the most powerful in the war chest to kill any competition.

Blogger VD March 02, 2019 4:43 PM  

Hmmm........terms that describe actions are more times given long after the event.

That's not what the term does. Don't be a moron. Read some Martin Luther to further disabuse yourself of the foolish notion.

Blogger Northpal March 02, 2019 6:26 PM  

@VD
Alright we'll call it a milestone.
"Read some Martin Luther to further disabuse yourself of the foolish notion"
Well how about you read the results of that fat ass Martin Luther, who funded him, protected him and why.
Don't forget his role on behalf of the nobles/princes during the German Peasants' War. They were slaughtered for only wanting what he advocated for his princes.

Blogger FrankNorman March 03, 2019 5:48 AM  

funny how every time the topic is how to save the West from the Left we get people showing up trying to start a fight between Protestants and Catholics.

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