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Thursday, March 07, 2019

Put him on the record

Put me on the record: Jordan Peterson @jordanbpeterson is a charlatan.
- Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Can confirm.

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55 Comments:

Blogger Groffin March 07, 2019 5:22 PM  

But Taleb only says that because he’s pissed that Peterson believes in the validity of IQ testing. Isn’t tacitly supporting one crypto-liberal/neocon quack because he happens to throw shade at another crypto-liberal/neocon quack that disagrees with the first on certain margin-issues a poor strategy?

Blogger DeepThought March 07, 2019 5:24 PM  

I wouldn't know. The loser has blocked me for criticizing a position of his.

I was not rude but turns out you can't challenge this "genius"

Blogger VD March 07, 2019 5:29 PM  

I've been looking at Taleb's argument. I think he has a mathematically solid case that fails to account for the exclusion of the cognitive elite.

Also, I think that it's less any identity complications - which I originally assumed - and more his distaste for statistical nebulousness, which there most certainly is surrounding intelligence research and IQ.

Blogger whoops March 07, 2019 5:39 PM  

OH LAWD HE COMIN

Blogger tublecane March 07, 2019 5:51 PM  

@1- If Taleb confirms Peterson's charlatanism for the wrong reasoreasons, whatever. It's still the right conclusion.

Not sure about your strategy of tacit support, but Vox is simply publicizing Taleb's tweet and agreeing with it. He could do that with Hillary Clinton if he wanted.

Blogger David The Good March 07, 2019 5:54 PM  

Deep Thought wrote:I wouldn't know. The loser has blocked me for criticizing a position of his.

I was not rude but turns out you can't challenge this "genius"


He's definitely not a loser, but he is touchy.

Blogger David The Good March 07, 2019 5:54 PM  

His books are worth every penny and more.

Blogger Phillip George March 07, 2019 6:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger Johnny March 07, 2019 6:09 PM  

Well, you convinced me. I was pretty much locked into thinking Peterson was a nut case, but the weight of evidence is that it is calculating. Kayfabe is what comes to mind.

Blogger Gen. Kong March 07, 2019 6:11 PM  

Jordie is the Wizard of Poz, and he's almost as real as that funny man behind the curtain.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2019 6:25 PM  

has he started retweeting PETA supporters yet? because thats when you really know someone has hit rock bottom... when they are repeating PETA talking points... its all over.

Blogger Adlow March 07, 2019 6:34 PM  

@VD Taleb's argument also has to do with a narrow question, the relationship between IQ and income, which breaks down over IQs of 100. While that dismantles plenty of psychologists' arguments, it says nothing about professional or societal competence.

If you break down performance within technical professions by IQ, you might not see a strong correlation among the competent, but you will almost certainly see rapid deterioration in performance below some minimum threshold. This cutoff would be highest among physicists and mathematicians, somewhat lower for other technical professions, lowest for unskilled professions (This might, come to think of it, explain the strong IQ-income correlation below 100: Western societies are designed for >100 individuals. Once you are above that threshold, social skills and work ethic become much more important).

Which is why societal IQ is important: without a certain spread, you just don't have enough bodies to capably fill technically-difficult jobs. If I were an IQ researcher, this is exactly the problem I would be looking at.

Blogger S1AL March 07, 2019 6:41 PM  

"If you break down performance within technical professions by IQ, you might not see a strong correlation among the competent, but you will almost certainly see rapid deterioration in performance below some minimum threshold."

This was actually a point that Taleb made: the only consistently useful function of IQ is to identify the left tail.

Another point that hasn't yet been developed completely is that "intelligence" is misused in the term: it should be intellect. The two overlap but are most definitely not the same.

Blogger JG March 07, 2019 6:42 PM  

Heh, Taleb blocked me. He can't take criticism of his stance on IQ.

Blogger Sargent.matrim March 07, 2019 6:43 PM  

Good to see more people coming to the right conclusion about Peterson.

Blogger maniacprovost March 07, 2019 6:55 PM  

has he started retweeting PETA supporters yet? because thats when you really know someone has hit rock bottom...

I posit that there is nothing wrong with raising Norwegian Ridgebacks, humanely, for food.

*Adjusts clipboard*

If you break down performance within technical professions by IQ, you might not see a strong correlation among the competent

Hmmm

It would be hard to observe. Typically the rules of any profession discourage innovation and add a large amount of busywork, which the mediocre can perform as well as the brilliant.

Add to that the phenomenon that unless you are a genius, you are unlikely to recognize genius in a technical field. It's not something that can be experienced, like music.

Blogger Johnny March 07, 2019 7:04 PM  

@12 Adlow

Just to agree with you. Smart enough is smart enough. My experience in life has been that people with IQ's right down to around 92 can usually get through life without any special hassles, and lower than that can be okay if they are part of a supportive community.

And if you don't mind an antidote, I knew a truck driver who lost his job because he was too stupid. He was completely capable of handling all the mental stuff that went with being a truck driver, which is not totally trivial for an over the road guy. But then he had an accident. He was too stupid to figure out that the company lawyer explained the law to him so that he would know the correct lie to tell. It would have been a simple and obvious and completely safe lie, and I think he got fired because he failed to understand the situation.

Blogger Adlow March 07, 2019 7:08 PM  

@16 It would be hard to observe. Typically the rules of any profession discourage innovation and add a large amount of busywork, which the mediocre can perform as well as the brilliant.

Most professionals (not academics) have a pretty good idea of who's good and who's not in their field. For example, you can ask a team of programmers to rate their colleagues' work from 1-5 in a secret questionnaire, then give them all IQ tests. If the 1s and 2s are all below a certain number, you have your cutoff.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 07, 2019 7:23 PM  

@12
If you break down performance within technical professions by IQ, you might not see a strong correlation among the competent, but you will almost certainly see rapid deterioration in performance below some minimum threshold. This cutoff would be highest among physicists and mathematicians, somewhat lower for other technical professions, lowest for unskilled professions

Exactly. For one example of a "nontechnical" profession -- someone with a 140 IQ may not necessarily make a better infantryman than a guy with a 100 IQ, but 80 IQ? That's a liability. There's a reason why the US military relies heavily on cognitive testing in establishing minimum standards for enlistment.

ASVAB

See also La Griffe du Lion's "Smart Fraction" theory:

THE SMART FRACTION THEORY OF IQ AND THE WEALTH OF NATIONS

Blogger Ominous Cowherd March 07, 2019 7:51 PM  

"I posit that there is nothing wrong with raising Norwegian Ridgebacks, humanely, for food."

Everyone knows that black dogs taste best. Black labs matter!

Blogger The Depolrable Podunk Ken Ramsey March 07, 2019 8:05 PM  

I don't care about anybody's IQ. Mine is fine, don't get me wrong. The things I care about when it comes to talking with people are: Are you interesting to me? Do you make good conversational points? Are you good company?

IQ has nothing to do with any of that. In fact, high IQ is an inhibitor to all of the above, very ironically.

Jordan Peterson tries my nerves. He dances around always into word-salad and rhetorical drama.

He's fucking boring.

Blogger Doktor Jeep March 07, 2019 8:05 PM  

Don't eat the doggy :-(

Blogger sammibandit March 07, 2019 8:30 PM  

IQ has nothing to do with any of that. In fact, high IQ is an inhibitor to all of [Are you interesting to me? Do you make good conversational points? Are you good company?], very ironically.

What is to follow is probably a gotcha, but I'll try to frame it as an earnest question: Does this apply to women or children? To be clear, would you enjoy the company of high IQ women or children less than low IQ?

I ask because low IQ women and children are resource-intensive. I can't think of a good reason to prefer their company though I can see why low IQ men are preferable. Low IQ men can still banter with the best of em. Sometimes better.

But where low IQ women and children congregate doesn't tend to feature interesting or good conversation and company. Look at Facebook, Myspace, Yahoo groups, Reddit. Used to be no girls on the internet but they got pozzed in coincidence with more women users or CEO in the case of Yahoo and Reddit.

I don't know for certain but I have a hunch that the free speech available at the time at these sites was a hindrance to cooperation and the "male banter factor" that comes along with it.

An example of what male banter is not. This is edited down from an 1-hour special btw. Hahaha.

https://youtu.be/5FXud0HP8Q0

Blogger VD March 07, 2019 8:30 PM  

I posit that there is nothing wrong with raising Norwegian Ridgebacks, humanely, for food.

I don't know about Norwegian Ridgebacks, but you have the food chain backwards there if you're talking about Rhodesian Ridgebacks.

Blogger Rough Carrigan March 07, 2019 8:31 PM  

#21. You don't think that people with high IQ are more likely to make good conversational points than people with low IQ?

The first time I learned about Vox was watching a conversation of his with someone whose name totally escapes me. But what struck me right away was that both Vox and the other guy were very intelligent and it was a very interesting conversation. It jumped out at you what an interesting conversation it was. And two midwits or lower could not have had that conversation. From that point forward I looked around to see who that Vox Day guy was.

Blogger VD March 07, 2019 8:32 PM  

I can't think of a good reason to prefer their company.

I can. Low-IQ women tend to be considerably less annoying than high-IQ women.

Low-IQ woman: "Wow! You're so smart!"

High-IQ woman: "I'm just as smart as you are!"

Blogger Lance E March 07, 2019 8:44 PM  

sammibandit wrote:Does this apply to women or children?

Children, yes, because apprentices. Women, no, because wives.

To be clear, would you enjoy the company of high IQ women or children less than low IQ?

Children should be seen and not heard. Men of all IQs prefer women of average IQ, regardless of what sniveling gammas tell you. There's a reason nature saw fit to cluster every female trait including intelligence very tightly around the mean, except for beauty which is as variable as any male trait.

But women of high IQ need not fear, as there are likely men out there with much higher IQ who will consider them "about average" anyway. It's the hypergamy that's the real problem, especially if they make the mistake of going to university.

Blogger State Estimation March 07, 2019 8:52 PM  

Chihuahuas make the best fajitas.

Norwegian Ridgebacks, I vould sey they're pretty tasty ya?

Blogger pyrrhus March 07, 2019 9:11 PM  

@14 Taleb blocked me, and I'm one of his biggest supporters, apparently for quibbling with his silly opinion that organized medicine is "science."

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei March 07, 2019 9:27 PM  

Norwegian Ridgebacks

Is someone trying to sneak Harry Potter references in here?

Blogger Living in a Fallen World March 07, 2019 9:32 PM  

Here's a test I'd love to see:

provide a test group with basic life information on, say, a hundred different people. Things like income level, marital history, age, sex, ethnicity, education level, and assets. Then allow for conversation time, perhaps half-an-hour to an hour with each subject.

Then get the test group to guess the IQ's of each subject.

How many of those guesses would be even close, I wonder?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2019 9:39 PM  

"apparently for quibbling with his silly opinion that organized medicine is "science.""

That would depend on what part of the organization you're talking about. Cabal tie-ins and many pharma sales techniques are definitely not science. They're corruption.

At least in the USA, the medical industry sold its soul to the banksters around WWI.

Blogger New Atlantis Lost March 07, 2019 9:49 PM  

This is off topic...
Vox I think you fired up trade for all the vintage sellers on eBay... Looked up the Collier sets and they are nearly all in bid wars!
Reading the spines in the photos, I am curious as to what makes them a better education than anything today? The higher level of vocabulary? Only one volume is about history. I didn’t see any arithmetic. They mostly appear to be varying collections of short stories. I like the idea and intend to find a set.... just curious about where all the value is in your eyes. Do all the short stories carry small truths that help develop a young mind?

Blogger daddynichol March 07, 2019 9:54 PM  

Teach young men the Book of Proverbs and get far better guidance/advice on how to succeed and live life than any insipid self help book. This one alone is better than all of Peterson's books:

Proverbs 17:21
Whoever conceives a fool has grief; the father of a numskull has no joy.

Blogger sammibandit March 07, 2019 11:14 PM  

I can. Low-IQ women tend to be considerably less annoying than high-IQ women.

Low-IQ woman: "Wow! You're so smart!"

High-IQ woman: "I'm just as smart as you are!"


Hahahahaha. You got me there.

The first time I learned about Vox was watching a conversation of his with someone whose name totally escapes me. But what struck me right away was that both Vox and the other guy were very intelligent and it was a very interesting conversation. It jumped out at you what an interesting conversation it was. And two midwits or lower could not have had that conversation. From that point forward I looked around to see who that Vox Day guy was.

Water seeks its level. Same here in videos with Stefan Molyneaux.

Children, yes, because apprentices. Women, no, because wives.

This clarifies a lot.

Children should be seen and not heard. Men of all IQs prefer women of average IQ, regardless of what sniveling gammas tell you. There's a reason nature saw fit to cluster every female trait including intelligence very tightly around the mean, except for beauty which is as variable as any male trait.

Loud kids? No.

Maybe uniformity of stock is a good thing considering almost a year of gestation. That's a lot of downtime. Perhaps it's so men know what to expect from women: Really predictable lifecycle. Helps planning ahead.

But women of high IQ need not fear, as there are likely men out there with much higher IQ who will consider them "about average" anyway. It's the hypergamy that's the real problem, especially if they make the mistake of going to university.

By grace of God there are more intelligent men than intelligent women. Hypergamy is devilish because it plays the weakest strings in women, getting them when they're girls. I don't mean to downplay personal responsibility, but rather say that women are fallen by nature.

So just to make sure I'm up to speed, I talked about women CEOs attracting women in effect destroying e-public squares. How does hypergamy factor in here if at all? Are rudderless women always seeking shiny, new things in a fractal way?

Blogger RobertDWood March 07, 2019 11:55 PM  

"Children should be seen and not heard. Men of all IQs prefer women of average IQ, regardless of what sniveling gammas tell you."

Gammas going to gamma, the projection is strong with this one.

Blogger S. Thermite March 08, 2019 1:27 AM  

Kudos once again to Vox for calling it early. The intellectually world is slightly less off-kilter with this news.

Jordy La Forgery may consider himself a Black Swan. But Cider House Rules dictate that an unnatural fear of a common fruit drink means he’s anything but anti-fragile.

Blogger Nate73 March 08, 2019 2:50 AM  

@38: Whence Socrates!?

Blogger Gregory the Tall March 08, 2019 3:14 AM  

I just noticed that through your relentless efforts, Vox, the term gamma has become multifunctional syntactically speaking. As in: Don't gamma me, you gammaing gamma!

Blogger Gregory the Tall March 08, 2019 3:16 AM  

And: OMG, that's so gamma!

Blogger Jack Amok March 08, 2019 4:04 AM  

Taleb blocked me, and I'm one of his biggest supporters, apparently for quibbling with his silly opinion that organized medicine is "science."

Have you considered the possibility he blocked you for the simple reason your quibbles don't add anything of value to his life and he already has a bazillion people quibbling with him all the time?

Blogger RobertDWood March 08, 2019 4:29 AM  

Even OMG is transformed into One More Gamma

Blogger Gregory the Tall March 08, 2019 4:51 AM  

Also Taleb is often critical of medical "science"

Blogger John D Alden March 08, 2019 5:45 AM  

Have you considered the possibility he blocked you for the simple reason your quibbles don't add anything of value to his life and he already has a bazillion people quibbling with him all the time?

That's what the mute button is for. Or notification filters. Or just accepting that not everyone is going to suck your dick over every opinion you put out.

Blocking is the one option that makes it completely obvious that you did it, because then the person can't see your content anymore. Brilliant plan, cutting off a follower who might have given you money in the future just because you were butthurt.

I'm off Twitter for good now---it's pure poison in more ways than one---but when I used it I was blocked by most of the e-celebs I ever engaged with, and it was almost always over something trivial like asking for clarification on a point or politely disagreeing with them. I'm not saying Taleb is a typical e-celeb (and he never blocked me) but damn if there aren't a lot of fragile faggots on Twitter.

Blogger VD March 08, 2019 6:15 AM  

when I used it I was blocked by most of the e-celebs I ever engaged with, and it was almost always over something trivial like asking for clarification on a point or politely disagreeing with them.

It's not them, John, it's you. Do you have ANY IDEA how fucking annoying it is to have a thousand gammas all "politely asking you for clarification on a point" that is completely obvious because they want to show you what Special Smart Boys they are?

I guarantee they saw right through you. Even if your initial communication was harmless, they knew that any response would generate additional requests, demands, and drama.

You are projecting your own butthurt.

Blogger Avalanche March 08, 2019 7:32 AM  

@11 "someone has hit rock bottom... when they are repeating PETA talking points"

How can he -- ALL he eats IS meat?!?

Blogger Avalanche March 08, 2019 7:38 AM  

@17 "explained the law to him so that he would know the correct lie to tell."

Is it not possible the driver was NOT WILLING to lie? Tell a lie, you ARE a liar. Don't want to be a liar, don't tell lies...

Did you not watch Vox's recent Darkstream where he described his friend who ... had changed ... and (Vox was moved to question him about the change when the friend) refused to (CHEAT and) let a credit card co. wipe out legit charges because his card had been stolen after those charges? That was a 'parable' of how to act -- and how to not act -- like an honesty man.

Blogger Avalanche March 08, 2019 7:39 AM  

@22 "Don't eat the doggy :-("

It roadkill instead, it's already "aged and seasoned."

Blogger John D Alden March 08, 2019 7:42 AM  

Pointing out that The Punisher is not a Death Wish ripoff because Death Wish the movie didn't even come out until the comic character already existed, and the book is not particularly like the movie, is not a "gamma tell". Pointing out a tactical issue in fighting the left on campus does not make me a gamma. Asking for clarification because what they just said contradicts something else they previously said is common sense. Those are the three things I can recall offhand that got me blocked by prominent e-celebs.

If e-celebs don't want notifications from every asshole under the sun, Twitter provides them tools to manage their notifications. If they don't use them, that's their own problem. It's foolish to manage the frustration they court by blocking their own followers, especially when they're in the business of SELLING to those followers.

Blogger Avalanche March 08, 2019 8:07 AM  

@50 Those are the three things I can recall offhand that got me blocked by prominent e-celebs."

Oh John: DUCK! INCOMING!

Those three things you defend yourself for ARE quintessentially Gamma! This 'report' of 'why you got blocked' (here on this blog, of all places) is also gamma (dyah not see that you're still carrying and nursing your butthurt about those blockings: "It was unfair! They were MEAN!")

1. You're "correcting" a "student" who is NOT your student and did not ask for correction. The celebs did not invite you (or anyone) to be their teacher NOR to edit their words/points.
2. Talk about minor points:
a. "You were WRONG about your point about the whatever, so, here, let me make you WRONG in public!" (to "show you up"?! "show you HOW SMART I AM!?)
b. "Here, you were WRONG / let me make you MORE right about a tactical thingie. Let's pretend I'm your sensei!"
c. "I have to" (no, you don't!) "correct your casual/colloquial (even IF wrong) statement to prove how I know when you make a mistake! See how smart I am!?"

Not being scathing about this -- I can see you're doing it because I used to do it more, still do it too much!

My beloved husband used to correct me (cause I asked him to!) with: "Don't help. Just don't help unless you are asked to help!" But, I would come bounding up like a puppy going: "look, look! I KNOW too! Let me tell you! Do you need a screwdriver? Do you want a pen? How about doing it THIS way?!" That can be charming (in exceedingly small doses) in a (very young) child -- but NOT in a grown woman and NEVER in a grown man!

(Yes, I was always teacher's pet...)

Blogger VD March 08, 2019 8:30 AM  

Pointing out that The Punisher is not a Death Wish ripoff because Death Wish the movie didn't even come out until the comic character already existed, and the book is not particularly like the movie, is not a "gamma tell". Pointing out a tactical issue in fighting the left on campus does not make me a gamma. Asking for clarification because what they just said contradicts something else they previously said is common sense. Those are the three things I can recall offhand that got me blocked by prominent e-celebs.

Yes, John, they most certainly are gamma tells. You are obviously a gamma because you are operating under the illusion that complete strangers must care about the same things you do. You are obviously a gamma because you are leaping to self-appoint yourself the Facts and Common Sense Police.

That's what gammas do.

You are the one who is butthurt, not the e-celebs who didn't ask for your criticism and have no interest in it. And the fact that you can't see this is also quintessentially gamma. You need - you really need - to understand that literally everyone sees through this. There is no amount of spinning and explaining and rationalizing that will deceive anyone.

The fact that you were right doesn't change what you are, or that the e-celebs did the right thing by blocking you rather than put up with your inevitable meltdown, which has already inspired me to delete one of your comments for abusive and foul language directed at another commenter.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 08, 2019 10:26 AM  

To quote Max Bialystock:
“They come here. They all come here… how do they find me?”

Blogger sumdudesfrysauce March 08, 2019 11:28 AM  

Sometimes popcorn is all I need....

Blogger tuberman March 08, 2019 1:55 PM  

"Jordan Peterson tries my nerves. He dances around always into word-salad and rhetorical drama."

Jordan Peterson is a slightly higher mid-wit, and in no way has a high IQ. He has become good at academic word-salad. Hanging around Universities one sees many of these pretenders.They obsticate constantly, and they niggle, Jewish or not...never want to commit on specifics, yet swim with the general Narrative.

High IQ people are all over. Many are arrogant, because if you are humble as a child, people treat you as a moron, because they cannot understand you, so you must be stupid. Yet high IQ people have many interests, including sports, and they can get good at them.

Blogger Trebor Nosemaj March 08, 2019 6:21 PM  

Jordan Peterson taught me to wash under my foreskin. Vox on the other hand taught me that me and a chimpanzee probably don't share a great granddaddy. What practical advice can Vox offer me?...hmmm? No, don't answer that...I want to continue living for a bit longer...

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