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Tuesday, June 18, 2019

Reprehensibly stupid

MGTOW are not only cowards and liars, they are reprehensibly stupid, as one Hop Light demonstrates on YouTube in response to my Darkstream entitled Men Going Evil's Way:
Absurd stream.

“Is the legal system stacked against men? Yes.”
“Are there really bad outcomes? Well, yes.”

But...uh statistics are just statistics.

Vox, you’re smarter than this. It is only a true gamma fool of a man who gets married in this day and age. Completely suicidal in some states. It’s not fear, it survival and adaptation. It’s what men do.
I'm certainly considerably smarter than he is. My point was that the statistics are not applicable. What MGTOW do is attempt to apply GENERAL statistics derived from a population of millions to their own individual situation despite the fact that such statistics are totally meaningless when applied to ONE SPECIFIC individual.

What they're doing is analogous to deciding one can afford to buy a $2 million house with a 7.84 percent mortgage interest rate because the average US housing price is $279,500 and the average mortgage interest rate is 4.39 percent.

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237 Comments:

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Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2019 8:11 AM  

What happened if all men went their own way?

To the human race, I mean.

Blogger Rocklea Marina June 18, 2019 8:13 AM  

Yultimately we would evolve pouches, like the marsupials.

Blogger jarheadljh June 18, 2019 8:18 AM  

"It’s not fear, it survival and adaptation. It’s what men do."

But, MGTOW ISN'T survival. MGTOW is gene-death. As far as survival adaptations go, that's right up there with antlers that are too big for a deer to lift it's head to eat.

Blogger peacefulposter June 18, 2019 8:19 AM  

That statistics also say that you can significantly improve the odds of a successful marriage with a few simple filters. For example,

1) Similar background
2) Similar views on the big stuff like kids and finances.
3) No prior divorces

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2019 8:26 AM  

I feel like we have to ask him if he knows where babies come from.

Blogger JG June 18, 2019 8:26 AM  

There's a damn good reason to shun sluts: The fewer the number of prior lovers a woman has the lower the probability of a divorce. A virgin woman has the lowest probability of divorce. Chastity works.

Blogger Daniel June 18, 2019 8:29 AM  

Putting the "in" in "incel."

Blogger binks webelf June 18, 2019 8:31 AM  

"That statistics also say that you can significantly improve the odds of a successful marriage with a few simple filters"

Another very basic filter-- Christianity. If you serve yourself as the height of existence, you're not going to make a good husband or wife. Satan does not make a good partner in a marriage.

Worshipping God as a couple & then a family is a basic & unifying force. Likewise, having Christian morality in common will prevent many many debates about right & wrong, who's the boss, and what the family is ultimately for (getting all the members to heaven, as fellow pilgrims in Christ Jesus).

Blogger Nation-Deprived June 18, 2019 8:32 AM  

MGTOW is what you get when omegas and self-aware gammas lose hope. No God-fearing man would hold on to this evil attitude.

Blogger peacefulposter June 18, 2019 8:33 AM  

Is it too late for a man to have kids at 50?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine June 18, 2019 8:37 AM  

"It’s not fear, it survival and adaptation. It’s what men do."

Unmen committing progenitive suicide is somehow survival, adaptation, and what REEEEEEEEEL men do? Satanic influence detected.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine June 18, 2019 8:40 AM  

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Blogger ZhukovG June 18, 2019 8:42 AM  

I am part of an extremely large extended Southern family/clan. Needless to say there have been a fair number of 'country music' worthy divorces. NOT ONE has been the life ending catastrophe that these MGTOW people cry about.

I'm not saying the bad ones don't happen, they do. But for every MGTOW that got hammered, I'm estimating there are 10 pussies, using this as an excuse, to spend their lives playing World of Warcraft.

There is a line from the movie '13th Warrior' that I like:

"Fear profits a man nothing."

Blogger Thomas Bateman June 18, 2019 8:44 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) June 18, 2019 8:48 AM  

I think two major problems that young men face are 1. lack of a healthy environment/culture in which to find quality women, and 2. very unrealistic expectations of relationships and sex based on too much exposure to pop culture nonsense and porn. These are hard things to deal with, no point in pretending that it's easy. Western men are miseducated and infantilized by a culture that actively hates them. They have to work to overcome this conditioning by essentially educating and training themselves, in many different areas of life, at the same time. I can understand the MGTOW temptation, but it's not a solution.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo June 18, 2019 8:49 AM  

So, who'd like to start a match-making service for all these gammas and omegas?

Blogger TheKman June 18, 2019 8:52 AM  

If they were good with women they would know, and they wouldn't be MGTOW. They spend too much time on the internet.

Blogger Silent Draco June 18, 2019 8:56 AM  

Hop Light: 44% less courage than other MGTOW.

A chess game can be won before both players sit down at the board. Planning, self-discipline, and consistent focus on your desired outcomes are essential.

If she still wants divorce because of feelz, then consult the SJW Attack Survival Guide. It's all there.

Blogger SonofLonginus June 18, 2019 9:02 AM  

I’d appreciate it.

I live in a small, 4 stoplight town full of the very young and very old. I work in a university town full of poz and thots. The church I go to (the only EO church less than an hour away), the women of marriagable age are all spoken for.

It’s a blasted wasteland as far as prospects go.

The problem with a service like what you’re talking about is weeding out the e/tradthots; they have an instinct for gravitating to stuff like that.

Blogger PseudonymousMe June 18, 2019 9:05 AM  

Moreover, checking out of the procreational and recreational game is not adapting and surviving; it’s crawling into the bushes to die while feeling maximally sorry for yourself.

It’s cutting off your balls to spite your dick.

Fighting back is to propagate your genes and memes. Go to church (fake it if you must), survey its various bible study groups. Target the kindest palatable girl born and raised into the covenant and who says she wants many kids. Have many kids. And take close control of their education.

I have seven such, seeming to have a reasonable success rate. You will be amazed at the sheer human potential, vivacity, variety and noise of such a brood.

Life’s a bitch. Don’t marry one.

Blogger Aeroschmidt June 18, 2019 9:06 AM  

There's already match making sites, lots of them. Just be upfront with what you want and the shit will cull itself.

It only takes one.

Blogger PseudonymousMe June 18, 2019 9:06 AM  

*procreational and societal

Blogger Ransom Smith June 18, 2019 9:10 AM  

There's a damn good reason to shun sluts: The fewer the number of prior lovers a woman has the lower the probability of a divorce. A virgin woman has the lowest probability of divorce. Chastity works.
A lot of these guys aren't willing to put in the work for that though.
A virgin woman is high status and can be more choosing with her future husband. And no respectable father will tolerate his daughter being with a gamma or omega.

Blogger Hatman June 18, 2019 9:14 AM  

The majority of women are sluts nowadays. That's a fact. If you filtered out the non-sluts and had ten babies with them it still wouldn't be anywhere near enough to save the white race in America.

There are not enough good women available for most men on the right to find matches, there is not even enough for Christian men.

So what it sounds like is that you want a bunch of men to wife the sluts and have some babies with them (that't the only way to get close to producing enough white babies) and then you shame them and call them cowards for not wanting to do it. You want them to take the risks to achieve your political goals.

Blogger Sigurd Jorsalfar June 18, 2019 9:18 AM  

@peaceful poster. No. My father had five additional children after a harsh divorce with his first wife, made worse by losing his eldest son to cancer the same year. i was his second child in his second marriage. at that point he was 49. he was 55 when my youngest sibling was born.

Fun fact: before meeting my mom he considered himself done with marriage because of age.

Blogger The Observer June 18, 2019 9:19 AM  

2. very unrealistic expectations of relationships and sex based on too much exposure to pop culture nonsense and porn.

There's a LOT to be said for this. We all talk about romance novels and bodice rippers giving women an irrational view of men, but media (not necessarily porn) is giving a lot of men irrational expectations of women. Just look at much of the self-identified right on social media lusting over imaginary "mommy GFs" whom they imagine will love them unconditionally and will always be kind and supportive no matter what. Characters in anime/manga like Senko and Raphtalia lead these men to believe that there are women out there who can love them like their mothers did and whom they can dump their burdens upon, which simply doesn't happen in real life.

Blogger JC Skinner June 18, 2019 9:22 AM  

@Peaceful - it's never too late. I think the actor Anthony Quinn was in his eighties when he last fathered a child. Mick Jagger just had one in his mid-Seventies. There is an argument that it's unfair on the kid to an extent, as they may not grow up knowing a father, but if you took that attitude, you'd not have kids for fear of being run over by a truck tomorrow. Stay fit, active, healthy and go for it.

Blogger Winston Smith June 18, 2019 9:23 AM  

MGTOW cannot accept the fact that the only certainties in life are death and taxes. If you choose to become an unproductive, sexless hermit then you still have the certainty of death awaiting you. In the face of the wicked absurdity of modern life, a self-respecting man has only the choice between living as a coward or acting boldly.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2019 9:24 AM  

Who actually watches anime? Are they too far gone if they are into Ryan weird ass shit? My frame of reference for anime is Robotech.

Blogger JC Skinner June 18, 2019 9:29 AM  

@Hatman - I would never suggest it was optimal to make a ho a housewife, but for those who can't kick it at the upper end of what females desire in men, you make do with what you can get. Make reality your friend, and accept where you are. If all you can land is a former slut, look for one who's firmly put those days behind her and who avoided the extremities of degeneracy. They're out there, especially as they enter their early to mid-thirties. There's hordes of them, actually. I find female teachers and academics to be quite amenable, as they're generally a little bookish and spent their best years squirrelling away in libraries before their ovary clock goes off and they realise in a panic they got about three years to get pregnant.

Blogger binks webelf June 18, 2019 9:33 AM  

Some kids are AWAKE awake. This pilgrimage, connected to the fine folks at The Remnant, consists mostly of kids in the teens and early 20s-- 20 000 of them in the France portion of the event.

These younger folks are learning about faith, history, prayer, making an effort, and walking in that faith hundreds of kilometres. Inspiring... and very far from woke converged Catholicism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJLK4hcDGDQ
REVOLUTIONARY FAIL: Traditional Catholic Uprising Under Francis

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php
The Remnant Online

Blogger Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) June 18, 2019 9:38 AM  

@29 Roy Fokker was a badass, even if he was a coalburner

Blogger Gulo Gulo June 18, 2019 9:40 AM  

Bluntly speaking - lose the defeatist attitude, get out of your head and boldly start talking to any and all women you find attractive ( or not)... even if it initially is uncomfortable. Do it enough and you’ll internalize. Talking to women will come naturally. And when you talk to one you like don’t act like the dog who catches the car it was chasing... milling around not knowing what do. Get her damn number and move it forward.
Today there are so many good resources out there for learning how to become better with the ladies .. and just cooler in general- that’s it’s unacceptable if you’re a halfway decent looking , 20-40 yo masculine guy yet you’re chronically single.. Resources like Good Looking Loser, Krauser are a good place to start. They’re literally the equivalent of paint by numbers for males to learn how to get good with women. And if your a believer, lose the hang up that you can’t read their stuff because these guys are hedonistic. Despite this they still have some decent advice, act on that and discard the rest.
Lastly ... this advice comes from personal experience.
I’m married now but a few years back when single , I lived in podunk Maine and even there I managed to find decent, attractive women to date.
My marriage would not have happened, and continued to remain strong, had I not become proficient in game.


Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2019 9:46 AM  

Woodsman is correct. No excuse whatsoever these days for being single. So many resources out there.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 18, 2019 9:46 AM  

At this point I don't want men like that breeding.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo June 18, 2019 9:53 AM  

SonofLonginus wrote:I’d appreciate it.

I live in a small, 4 stoplight town full of the very young and very old. I work in a university town full of poz and thots. The church I go to (the only EO church less than an hour away), the women of marriagable age are all spoken for.

It’s a blasted wasteland as far as prospects go.

The problem with a service like what you’re talking about is weeding out the e/tradthots; they have an instinct for gravitating to stuff like that.


I can empathize; I lived in a place like that for a while, and it sucked. The question becomes, do you desire marriage and family enough to alter your life in some way, possibly drastically? In the stream last night, Vox said something to the effect of treating it as if it's a job...plan, prepare, then execute.

Blogger Balkan Yankee June 18, 2019 9:54 AM  

MGTOW. Men Going Tube-launched, Optically tracked, and Wire-guided.

Or something like that.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 18, 2019 9:55 AM  

Arguing with MGTOWs might be the most futile argument you can have. It so often goes like this:

MGTOW: Women are too risky, don't do it!
Man: I know the system is stacked against men, but you're overstating the risk, and here is some evidence to prove it.
MGTOW: Women are too risky, don't do it!
Man: Look, even if it's risky, the rewards are worth the risk. Just ask these men who have been through it.
MGTOW: Women are too risky, don't do it!
Man: Ok, piss off, you smug loser.
MGTOW: I win!

Blogger Uncle John's Band June 18, 2019 9:56 AM  

They are akin to SJWs - lie and misrepresent generalities to justify personal failure, then appeal to sympathetic anecdotes when called out. But if they had integrity, they wouldn't be trying to poison others with their toxin.

Judge them by their fruits and it gets very clear what they are.

Blogger Harambe June 18, 2019 9:59 AM  

I only really have high school as my frame of reference because once I graduated, my social interactions were limited because I worked full time while studying.

but thinking back to high school, for every slutty girl, there were 10 good looking girls who were well-adjusted and about 20 well-adjusted girls who weren't good looking. Those are some good odds actually. And besides, your ugly ass only deserves a 5 or 6 at best. Leave the hot chicks to the dudes who can actually fight and play dodgeball. Or learn to do those things well before you try to snatch their girls away.

Blogger Uncle John's Band June 18, 2019 10:02 AM  

38. Damelon Brinn

The argument isn't with them. They can burn in whatever future they earned themselves. The point is to expose their lies for others, as it is with any deceiver.

They aren't patients, they're cautionary tales.

Blogger Cloudbuster June 18, 2019 10:02 AM  

"So you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah!" -- Lloyd Christmas

Blogger Meanoldbasterd June 18, 2019 10:08 AM  

Its extremely unlikely, but IF it did happen women would be forced to knuckle under after about 3 days of having to do everything themselves...
But this is like asking what would happen if all women remained virgins until married... Men would get married.

Blogger doctrev June 18, 2019 10:09 AM  

The darkstream comparing MGTOW to bitter feminists is just about perfect. You don't need my advice to keep hitting them and drilling down on the point.

You can understand older men who have lost everything, and are therefore gun shy about ever making those risks again. I think AlphaGame actually made the point that men from any era of Christianity would never tolerate a legal system treating them like this: even the Roman pagans would kill the people involved until it became bath time. But if you are that spineless, then you have two problems.

1) The advice of nationalist bloggers isn't just useless to you, but downright harmful. Without courage, you're much better living as a herbivore man who reads Maureen Dowd.
2) You make it much, much likelier that your wife will despise you enough to seek a divorce. Chicken and egg!

Blogger Meanoldbasterd June 18, 2019 10:10 AM  

Name one

Blogger Sargent.matrim June 18, 2019 10:11 AM  

"It's about survival."

That's a truly ridiculous comment. Men going it alone has never been how humanity has survived. Even on an individual scale you have to have people in your life whom you trust and care about and who care about you.

Plus life isn't just about surviving, it's about living. Life is to be enjoyed, and life without a wife isn't as much fun, and isn't as fulfilling. We are built for relationship.

Mgtow is just a giant pity party for men genuinely broken, but unwilling to find a way out of the funk. That's not being a man.

Seek to overcome, seek to find a good woman, they exist. I know many.

Great stream.

Blogger Garuna June 18, 2019 10:12 AM  

MGTOW don't deserve to be debated. They should just be aggressively bullied. Can you even blame women for being hypergamous? Who would want to be stuck with """""men""""" like these? We should be allowed to have multiple wives.

Blogger Meanoldbasterd June 18, 2019 10:14 AM  

Gloria was about the whitest black woman in anime

Blogger Uncle Maffoo June 18, 2019 10:15 AM  

So Vox, when's the Omega Voxiversity coming out?

Blogger Quicksilver June 18, 2019 10:15 AM  

Mgtow are lazy cowards basically. Sounds very much like the fable of the fox and the sour grapes.

Blogger Meanoldbasterd June 18, 2019 10:16 AM  

Define slutty, because... Press X to doubt THAT ratio!

Blogger IrishFarmer June 18, 2019 10:18 AM  

As a man, I can say I got married. It wasnt necessarily a wise decision under the circumstances, but things have worked out. In large part, I think, because I relentlessly pushed for our family to participate in Christian culture. Is it all Rose's? No. But I'm not likely to get taken to the cleaners, and now I know what it will take to help my son find the right woman. And I am looking at potentially 4 children and God willing at least 16 grandchildren. Maybe not possible for everyone but knowing what I know i would always take the chance. MGTOW is just the Male version of the crazy cat lady imo.

Blogger Robert What? June 18, 2019 10:20 AM  

Is this a variation on "man up and marry that slut"?

Blogger harry case June 18, 2019 10:22 AM  

MGTOW is the ultimate cowardice. I am reminded of charles bronsons speech in the magnificent 7 where he compares the heroism of a gunman to that of a farmer raising a family. "I have never had courage like that" If you wonder why the right woman hasnt come in to your life start becoming the man you want to be so she will recognize you when you cross her path. If you want a woman who will use you and boss you around keep sitting on that couch your mom will find her for you. Marriage is hard for Christians with Gods help I have no idea how non christians ever stay married or find the joy it was designed to produce.

Blogger Nym Coy June 18, 2019 10:24 AM  

All these MGTOW complaining that the women are all sluts and whores. You're not fooling anyone. The sluts and whores don't want you. Get thee a fattie.

Blogger Aeroschmidt June 18, 2019 10:28 AM  

Google it. I picked my wife out on eHarmony.

Blogger binks webelf June 18, 2019 10:29 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Aeroschmidt June 18, 2019 10:32 AM  

They're not all sluts, retard. Find one that isn't.

Blogger Garuna June 18, 2019 10:38 AM  

It’s not fear, it survival

Who's trying to kill this guy? What a fucking drama queen. The persecution complex is next level.

Most "feminists" aren't even true believers. If you never cuck, they start acting feminine on their own. Feminism is a wildly overrated problem. Women don't have agency. They do what they're told. All you have to do is project more masculinity and authority than the gayass soy-drenched media and they'll follow you instead of the globohomo program. The state of women in the west is just a reflection of the weak men who can't even pretend to be masculine.

Blogger Jeroth June 18, 2019 10:40 AM  

Epicurus's advice on marriage and women is basically MGTOW. The only thing missing is the permission to occasionally fulfill your desires with a young boy.

Blogger Kat June 18, 2019 10:45 AM  

Harambe wrote:I only really have high school as my frame of reference because once I graduated, my social interactions were limited because I worked full time while studying.

but thinking back to high school, for every slutty girl, there were 10 good looking girls who were well-adjusted and about 20 well-adjusted girls who weren't good looking. Those are some good odds actually. And besides, your ugly ass only deserves a 5 or 6 at best. Leave the hot chicks to the dudes who can actually fight and play dodgeball. Or learn to do those things well before you try to snatch their girls away.


As a 6 maybe 7 at my prime I endorse this remark. Assortive mating is real. Maybe you'll have to encourage a girl to dress better. Maybe you'll have to encourage her to cook. If she wants to please you she'll step up her game and learn all your grandmother's recipes. Doesn't mean you're going to get the total package up front though.

Blogger English Tom June 18, 2019 10:45 AM  

You can be like a strong tree, with deep roots and many branches, or you can be a (MGTOW) leaf, blown away by the wind.

Blogger Noah B. June 18, 2019 10:50 AM  

"It’s not fear, it survival and adaptation."

Survival to do what? Collect more stuff and have more time to play video games and watch porn? Make model airplanes while you plot your revenge against the world?

If you're an adult who isn't trying to raise a family, cure cancer or actively repel the hordes then you're just useless.

Blogger VD June 18, 2019 10:56 AM  

Is this a variation on "man up and marry that slut"?

No. Don't be stupid. This is "shut the hell up, go off and die in dignified solitude."

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 18, 2019 10:57 AM  

They don't agree, they don't even understand. I do empathize. Could have been me, I was headed that direction. It's a very seductive, tempting, dark pool of dirty water.

They're not any different than the sluts they don't want to marry, just the male side of the same coin.

It's a cowardly form of survival, hiding in a dark corner and sucking your thumb. I definitely don't want them in a foxhole with me or leading me in battle. They couldn't really lead anyway, they're the ones lurking in the back yelling "you and him fight for me, I'm skerd".

Join the damn team and at least serve as a water or towel boy.

Blogger NO GOOGLES June 18, 2019 11:01 AM  

"It's not fear, it's survival."

What survival? Who is your posterity, again? You won't have one. You'll be dead and in the ground and no one will care 5 minutes later because you left no one to care. You built nothing and died.

Blogger WordsFromTheCrucible June 18, 2019 11:01 AM  

They cling desperately to fear, as though it were their only hope.

Blogger Garuna June 18, 2019 11:01 AM  

Is this a variation on "man up and marry that slut"?

I'm willing to bet this fag never approached the ugly girls who are not sluts. People who don't know their place invite a lot of unnecessary stress and """involuntary""" celibacy into their lives.

All these MGTOW complaining that the women are all sluts and whores. You're not fooling anyone. The sluts and whores don't want you. Get thee a fattie.

10/10 advice.

Blogger peacefulposter June 18, 2019 11:02 AM  

@25 Sigurd
@27 JC

Thanks!

Blogger Gallant June 18, 2019 11:04 AM  

Engaging MGTOW thought is a good idea. The average "MGTOW" is more made up of salvageable material than the average soyed up San Fran tech worker.

Open warfare, though, not so great. There are good ideas floated around in the MGTOW world, the inputs into the equation are just incomplete.

I'd address it via 2 broad categories:

The 'incomplete'. There's that the stats aren't looked at in proper context (as VD pointed out). Also (and I add my own personal observations to this) the young man who wants fast cars and is crushed by the family courts, isn't the middle-aged man who, after same, now stronger mentally, financially, and socially, is relieved that *only* being "divorce raped" he has his children and was spared the aimlessness and existential crises facing his childless contemporaries.

Then "civilizational duty or preference". Even considering the above, maybe you would have more fun if you cut off your genitals and went on heroin the rest of your life. It would not work well if everyone did it, and would have the same impact on humanity as everyone going MGTOW. Maybe this could be a hard sell; but also a fundamental pivot point around which people looking at the same information could make a true decision about their lives. From a certain point of view it's a mathematical slam dunk. . . . childless + MGTOW = extinction. For any other outcome, you have to 'go another way'.

Blogger Haus frau June 18, 2019 11:05 AM  

@10 "Is it too late for a man to have kids at 50?"

No. My husband had kids again at 51, 53 and 55 years of age. By his own admission, he spends far more time with them than he was able to with his oldest 3 children when he was a young man. An older parent has financial stability (if they've been wise) and more spare time but yes, it is pushing the limit. There are trade offs involved in older parenting for sure.

Blogger wahr01 June 18, 2019 11:05 AM  

Harambe wrote:I only really have high school as my frame of reference because once I graduated, my social interactions were limited because I worked full time while studying.

but thinking back to high school, for every slutty girl, there were 10 good looking girls who were well-adjusted and about 20 well-adjusted girls who weren't good looking. Those are some good odds actually. And besides, your ugly ass only deserves a 5 or 6 at best. Leave the hot chicks to the dudes who can actually fight and play dodgeball. Or learn to do those things well before you try to snatch their girls away.



Today things are far worse.

Dating sites have rapidly exacerbated the 80/20 rule and served as rocket fuel for hypergamous tendencies.

Further, generally bad parenting, "social" media, and various other major sources of societal sickness have radically increased mental illness among the populace, from neurosis to flat-out narcissism.

That said, pairing up and reproducing is the most basic of biological purpose, and the fact that odds are against you should be compelling reason to be looking harder.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 11:07 AM  

Ok, let’s follow the logic. Really smart people do not get married and have kids, really dumb ones do. Biology necessitates that people that reproduce have a cell of themselves (the same as how they started out) join with another one, and the person becomes an additional person or people. They show up and become the future of humanity. So smart people are supposed to not show up, and instead become a dead end, while handing the Earth over to stupid people. That’s f-ing retarded. Not speaking figuratively, it is the mind in a retarded state. 500 years from now, it will not matter how much we suffered, what job we had, what house we had, our bank account, how educated we were, how difficult things were, how disappointing things were, or how candy ass our lives were. In 500 years, it will only matter who is still around, and who became nothing more than a rotted lump of flesh.

So the logic is that smart people create a dumb world, and that dumb people create a dumb world. The logic is not logic, it is rationalization, a rationalization that is wrong. If you think the world is populated with people that suck, populate it with a genetic line that does not.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia June 18, 2019 11:07 AM  

Agreed that the MTGOW movement is wrongheaded, but on the other hand the desire to be independent AS A MAN is instinctively a good one. The real issue is what does "Going your own way" actually entail? If it entails withdrawal, that of course is horrible.

But if it means carving out a social and career arc that stems from self-reliance, diligence, discipline, self-confidence, and a focus on accomplishment, then that "own way" is a great way.

Frankly, the love of a good woman and the fulfillment of family is a second order effect of that positive "own way." A man's mission is not just himself, but without his own mission, nothing else will come, or what does come will be awful.

Blogger Garuna June 18, 2019 11:12 AM  

Getting laid has never been easier. """Involuntary""" celibacy is a fake problem. Lower your standards.

Blogger SemiSpook37 June 18, 2019 11:16 AM  

Knew I was onto something when I was actively dating. Looks don't mean anything once you catch wind that the equipment has been through a lot. You lose interest real fast. Oddly enough, one girl that I dated, who had been up front with me in her being around a little bit and taking a bit of pride in her conquests, felt that engaging in that specific activity would be "dishonoring" me, and she felt a sense of guilt in thinking of trying that.

I can appreciate that. Of course, 6 years later, I'd end up meeting the woman who is now my wife, and thank God she hadn't ridden the carousel. Makes me appreciate it that much more.

What's funny is that we tend to be the outliers in our particular circles. I've heard of most of my college friends that had gotten together in school and eventually married have all divorced within the past couple of years (similar to some of my wife's friends), and here we are going on over a decade together. Wish we had the ability to have more children, but what do you expect when you live in an area where doing the right thing is always frowned upon?

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 18, 2019 11:16 AM  

@10 "Is it too late for a man to have kids at 50?"

I know I'd be a much better parent for a new batch, although I'm not sure the chances of the grand-kids ever meeting me are very good. That's probably a good thing.

Plus the new mom would have to be some kind of angelic saint or masochistic crazy to put up with me. The first one is a bit of both, and I should have done better for her.

Blogger Nathan Bruno June 18, 2019 11:17 AM  

@KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia

The etymology of the label no longer applies to understanding MGTOW. People who do what you describe in the second paragraph don't show up and whine. Even if they happen to be men who go their own way in life, they aren't MGTOWers.

The label has come to mean living just as the protagonist of "Average American Male", but being paralyzingly afraid of loss of X-Box due to family court action or similar hypothetical threat.

Paul was not MGTOW.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 11:19 AM  

peacefulposter, does the 50 year old have sperm that work? Plenty of young low IQs making dumb choices knock up future single moms. At least if the 50 year old sticks around for a while, hopefully living a long and good life, they have the opportunity to not only make babies, but to actually be there for a bit (or decades) to actually participate and be a better father for their future selves. And maybe even provide an inheritance (wisdom and material) for a leg up on the next go round in this crazy world.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2019 11:19 AM  

My dad didn't even start until he was 44, and stopped when he was 55, after five kids with my mom.

Blogger pnq87 June 18, 2019 11:21 AM  

I believe that most men have a natural desire for a traditional marriage and family. If you accept this premise, then you can see that MGTOW is a response to social errors on which modern society is built. I believe MGTOW to be the outcome of a rational process of evaluating the risk , effort, and reward equation in an individual man's head. For each man that equation will work out differently based on his socio-sexual rank, luck, location, and other factors. I think when castigating MGTOW as an evil, one should remember that MGTOW is a inevitable response to bad conditions, not the evil which instigated those conditions in the first place.

I have heard it said that men should focus on finding a good girl to marry. Even if we accept the premise that "good girls" do exist it is clear that those "good girls" would have a very high value on the marriage market. Having such a high value means that those "good girls" can be assumed to have been snapped up, married and have children at the earliest opportunity. Also those "good girls" would stay married to their husbands until death. If a man has come to the point of accepting MGTOW then we can confidently assert that that man is low enough in the sexual ranking to be out of the contending for a "good girl".

In as much as this is the case it is true that MGTOW is largely a case of sour grapes. Yet even though a few of the grapes are indeed sweet, it is not a lie to say that most of the grapes in total and certainly all of the grapes which the MGTOW can reach are indeed sour. Thus the shaming of MGTOW implies that men should eat the sour grapes that are within their reach.

Now this is an outrageous assertion. Since for many men the idea of wifing up a slut is equivalent to the idea of marrying a dirty toothless bum for a woman. No one would critisize a woman, even a fat and ugly one, for not marrying and having children with a dirty bum and yet low ranking men are implicitly shamed for not wifing up sluts, even fat and ugly sluts. This is a clear bias.

If people are concerned about the falling birth rates, instead of bashing MGTOW as cowards, which is a waste of time anyway, they would do better to criticize the licentious behavior of modern women which make them unfit wives and mothers. It is clear that modern liberal democracy has failed to account for how important for the maintenance of civilization it is to constrain the natural sexual impulses of men and women. Everything else is a red herring and a waste of time.

MGTOW is not for every man, but neither, in my opinion, is it evil. At least not evil to the degree that the sins of fornication and adultery are which are the cause of the problem in the first place.

Blogger David Ray Milton June 18, 2019 11:24 AM  

I’m sure this comment has been made multiple times (I didn’t read the previous comments), but I needed to write it anyway.

It is not “Survival” if you are not having children. It is a long and slow hedonistic crawl towards death though a swamp of pornography, alcohol, and loneliness.

That’s all.

Blogger VD June 18, 2019 11:30 AM  

Thus the shaming of MGTOW implies that men should eat the sour grapes that are within their reach.

No, you moron. The shaming of MGTOW only implies that other people should not be useless lotus eaters like MGTOW. They're not fighting. They're not waging war on family court judges or anyone else. They're just whiny quitters.

Blogger Harambe June 18, 2019 11:30 AM  

Slutty = sleeping around. Not in a relationship with the guy they're having awkward teenager sex with.

Blogger VD June 18, 2019 11:32 AM  

If people are concerned about the falling birth rates, instead of bashing MGTOW as cowards, which is a waste of time anyway, they would do better to criticize the licentious behavior of modern women which make them unfit wives and mothers.

People have been doing that non-stop since the 1960s. And it's not as if one can't criticize more than one evil at a time.

You're just trying to defend the indefensible. Don't bother. As long as they are preaching their evil philosophy, they will be rightly hammered.

Blogger grey June 18, 2019 11:33 AM  

MGTOW is another failure mode of binary thinking. "Legal marriage is a raw deal, therefore I can never have a family," thinks the MGTOW. TBH I thought like this myself for years.

Mike Cernovich long ago pointed out that you can give a woman a wedding, a ring, children, and financial security without getting the govt license and handing her your balls on a silver platter.

Getting legally married in the USA is a bad deal for a man, a great deal if you're female. This should not preclude any man from starting a family. Definitely doesn't stop the coloureds.

Blogger Gallant June 18, 2019 11:42 AM  

Part of the MGTOW talk isn't that relationships should never happen; but that men need to 'wait' for things to get better (pointing out that 'mens rights' can't succeed under universal suffrage, that some collapse is needed). This in a vacuum sounds good, even 'rational', except for that little detail that given reality of reproduction 'wait' = 'extinction'.

Unfortunate reality but a reality. Even if all the worst developments occurred and all the bad marriage/divorce stats went to 100%, men enslaved, etc. etc., the alternative would remain extinction. If humans (or humans we like) are to exist in a future where something is made better, humans actually have to have been born and exist in that future.

Blogger PJW Gent June 18, 2019 11:42 AM  

Garuna wrote:Is this a variation on "man up and marry that slut"?

I'm willing to bet this fag never approached the ugly girls who are not sluts. People who don't know their place invite a lot of unnecessary stress and """involuntary""" celibacy into their lives.

All these MGTOW complaining that the women are all sluts and whores. You're not fooling anyone. The sluts and whores don't want you. Get thee a fattie.

10/10 advice.

I remember the song by Jimmy Soul from 1963, Get An Ugly Girl To Marry You.
Chorus:
If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife.
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ZJiBHh-Yw

Blogger wahr01 June 18, 2019 11:45 AM  

@86

The "marriage" portion is incidental. Long ago they tied most of the financial rape to "child support".

Blogger SM777 June 18, 2019 11:47 AM  

In calculating the odds of financial loss/wrongful imprisonment along with the difficulty in setting up a marriage situation, and even factoring in the problem of obesity among US women, it is simply not worth the risk and definitely not worth the trouble.

Blogger Johannmon June 18, 2019 11:48 AM  

A big question for Christian men is whether they can contain their sexual drive without a wife. If you are among the vast majority who will have issues with porn or fornication, then that in of itself disqualifies MGTOW. There is no way to rationalize away Paul's words.

Blogger Jeffrey Johnson June 18, 2019 11:52 AM  

I cut my dating teeth in the brutally difficult San Francisco Bay Area. When these MGTOW's talk about the problems with a lot of women, I get it. I really do.

The thing that they never talk about is what they can do to make their situation better. Everybody talks about how there are so many bad women out there but the MGTOW's never talk about how many bad men are out there. This day and age it is fairly easy to climb over the other men competing for the good women out there. So many men these days are total soy-boys or are hooked on video games and pr0n. If there's a will to get a good woman then there's a way but MGTOW's are unwilling to even try and that makes them the worst of the losers out there.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 18, 2019 11:53 AM  

grey wrote:Getting legally married in the USA is a bad deal for a man, a great deal if you're female. This should not preclude any man from starting a family. Definitely doesn't stop the coloureds.

The coloreds aren't marrying, they're spawning. It isn't the same as starting a family.

Blogger McJibblits June 18, 2019 11:53 AM  

MGTOW is essentially a mass cucking masquerading as a protest movement. The problem is that no one cares about the protest, and are actively laughing. I empathize with them, but I don't sympathize.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 18, 2019 11:55 AM  

peacefulposter wrote:Is it too late for a man to have kids at 50?

One of my great-great-grandfathers had his last child at 70, with his third or so wife.

Blogger wahr01 June 18, 2019 11:56 AM  

@94

Oh they care.. the number of "where are all the good men" articles from feminist circles are staggering.

Whether they care or not is irrelevant: these people are choosing self-extinction by focusing on the dystopian nature of relationships without placing into the context of "how dystopian things are in the absence of relationships".

Given the choice of dying with a child made distant by divorce or dying having none to my posterity, i'll choose the former every time.

Blogger Jeroth June 18, 2019 11:59 AM  

SM777 wrote:In calculating the odds of financial loss/wrongful imprisonment along with the difficulty in setting up a marriage situation, and even factoring in the problem of obesity among US women, it is simply not worth the risk and definitely not worth the trouble.

Only if your highest value in life is avoiding pain.

Also, please show me your calculations.

Blogger Johannmon June 18, 2019 12:01 PM  

We aren't called to save the white race. God will take care of the macro stuff in His own way. We are called to be faithful in our sphere and part of that faithfulness is marriage (unless you are one of the few who can be faithfully celibate).

Blogger Caesar Rodney June 18, 2019 12:02 PM  

"What MGTOW do is attempt to apply GENERAL statistics derived from a population of millions to their own individual situation despite the fact that such statistics are totally meaningless when applied to ONE SPECIFIC individual."

Vox you nailed it. I think the perspective is based on two fallacies, that these individuals' outcomes are randomly determined and that everyone's risk of disaster is the same.

Blogger Mr Smith June 18, 2019 12:03 PM  

MGTOW evolutionary dead ends. If you need a visual representation of MGTOW look no further than here.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 12:08 PM  

@24 Hatman, let’s say you are right, and every last woman on the face of the earth is a slut. What does slut mean? Attitude. Not genetics, there has not been much change in that. Attitude. So you find a woman with, well you find a woman to begin with. And preferably a woman, slut according to the sake of argument assumption, with decent genetic qualities that will give your offspring advantage (now and down the line), meaning qualities you do not have but with an overall package actually attainable in wooing. Qualities that will give them advantage in mental capability, genetically based behavioral positives, and in not being a loser. So that, maybe a few generations down the lines, after the BS, the world has something decent to rebuild with. But that only begins if you stop being a dimwitted, self-centered, self-wounder, and plan for a future that goes past the end of your nose and your current arrangement of cells. Your argument sucks, you can do better.

Blogger wahr01 June 18, 2019 12:10 PM  

@101

"What does slut mean? Attitude. Not genetics"

I see someone doesn't believe in genetic heritability of attitude.

Blogger grey June 18, 2019 12:12 PM  

@93 the coloreds may have a totally different family 'structure,' vs whites but all families start the same, old-fashioned way.

I just looked up AfAm fertility and its not as high as I imagined and is in fact below replacement, though not as low as whites

Blogger Birdman June 18, 2019 12:13 PM  

That's true

Blogger LZ June 18, 2019 12:18 PM  

Generalizing from the group to the individual is ignorant. Group statistics apply to groups, not to individuals. The divorce rate is high because some people have multiple divorces. Some people divorce before having children. Start digging into demographics, there's a lot of controlling factors that push the divorce rate even lower. Divorce can be contagious, but if you live someplace where divorce isn't common, it's likely you're either in the demographic categories that aren't prone to divorce. If everyone around you is getting divorced, move away.

Blogger widlast washere June 18, 2019 12:21 PM  

I've been married 30 years, have 2 sons. Has it been tough at times, YES. I'm I better off and a better man for have gone through it all, YES. First find a good wife, then be a good husband. (and realize that women are slightly nuts and you have to just deal with the crazy that comes out at times)

Blogger Ranger June 18, 2019 12:33 PM  

@102
"I see someone doesn't believe in genetic heritability of attitude."

All women, without exception, are hypergamous, and that is a genetic heritability of attitude (AWALT). How hypergamy is expressed, however, depends a lot on the social environment. Current social environment encourages hypergamy as slutiness, that does not mean future environments will.

I suppose the vast majority of the Darkstream audience is male (and the tiny minority of women probably agree with what women's problems today are). So the message is geared towards men. It doesnt matter how bad women are, thats not Vox's focus. It is still evil for the vast majority of men to avoid family formation, and its a road that will
lead to disaster in the long run, both on a personal (likely) and on a societal (certainly) level.

As to the MGTOW argument that, if enough men withdraw, society will collapse and there will be The Great Correction -which is the only one that might make MGTOW acceptable to a brave man-, nothing could be more Gamma Secret King mentality ("lets see how those losers deal without me. Bwahaha")

Blogger Balam June 18, 2019 12:33 PM  

Garuna wrote:Getting laid has never been easier. """Involuntary""" celibacy is a fake problem. Lower your standards.

The skill floor has really dropped that low (and/or it's gotten more difficult), according to some random survey. The following chart is the now-famous tripling of male virginity (10% to almost 30%) of men aged 18-30.
https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/1111607604348805120

Men have always been knocked down but the question here is why aren't they getting back up again. Ordinarily 'mgtow' would be a short period of self-reflection or licking of wounds before he gets back in the saddle. A guy might be rejected and then, like a Charles Atlas ad, get buff or even simply get drunk again and go charging back into the dating game. What's changed?

On a related note here are two pictographs on how couples meet nowadays compared to the past (another survey):
https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/qz-production-atlas-assets/charts/atlas_BJTctB1SN.png

https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2017/10/16/Photos/NS/MW-FW367_intern_20171016144802_NS.png?uuid=89a527d4-b2a2-11e7-af82-9c8e992d421e

Online dating meetings have exploded at the cost of family, friends and the workplace. Is it that online dating is a meatmarket or is it that men no longer have the courage or social network to do otherwise?

pnq87 wrote:If you accept this premise, then you can see that MGTOW is a response to social errors on which modern society is built. I believe MGTOW to be the outcome of a rational process of evaluating the risk , effort, and reward equation in an individual man's head
...
MGTOW is not for every man, but neither, in my opinion, is it evil.


MGTOW is not rational and is not the end result of conscious calculation. They are not acting like a consumer shunning a katsup bottle that's raised in price $2, they are acting like scalded dogs who fear going near the color blue because the tea kettle that burned them was blue. The rest of it is coping and post-hoc rationalization. You know this to be true because the rational ones have already moved to other states/countries to get girls because for them the problem really was the dating pool. We are left with the emotionally scarred and emotionally scared.

I understand your need to say MGTOW is not evil because maligning a group for merely having sour grapes sounds unfair. However those men who truly 'went their own way' don't campaign for others to follow them while throwing shade at those who try to get into relationships, those original men are simply gone into the woods or quietly building model trains or something. The movement known as MGTOW is more like an alcoholic. Yeah he had a bad hand but he chose to dive into drink and has become an evil person as a result.

Blogger kurt9 June 18, 2019 12:36 PM  

"What MGTOW do is attempt to apply GENERAL statistics derived from a population of millions to their own individual situation despite the fact that such statistics are totally meaningless when applied to ONE SPECIFIC individual."

Yes.

Its the same issue with regards to the recent decline in life expectancy that has been reported in the media in the last couple of years. This reduction is due to opioid drug use and suicide. Avoid these two things and you beat the odds.

Blogger sammibandit June 18, 2019 12:40 PM  

Men believing in MGTOW is like a woman believing black-pilled propaganda about having retarded children after age 30 or having PCOS or endometriosis if they have painful menses. Some people love searching for problems that externalize their locus of control. Grow up.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 12:44 PM  

102 whr01 Incorrect. Wanting to engage in sex is generally heritable. The conditions of acceptability are to a degree learned. “Nowadays” was the context provided by Hatman, coupled with “the white race” as a general term.

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 18, 2019 12:45 PM  

Ranger wrote:@102

"I see someone doesn't believe in genetic heritability of attitude."
....
As to the MGTOW argument that, if enough men withdraw, society will collapse and there will be The Great Correction -which is the only one that might make MGTOW acceptable to a brave man-, nothing could be more Gamma Secret King mentality ("lets see how those losers deal without me. Bwahaha")


It's the same mentality as those who plan to hunker down alone in their preper bunker when SHTF and think they will emerge king of the wasteland and all its inhabitants.

Blogger Eincrou June 18, 2019 12:58 PM  

"What MGTOW do is attempt to apply GENERAL statistics derived from a population of millions to their own individual situation despite the fact that such statistics are totally meaningless when applied to ONE SPECIFIC individual."

Even though statistics have become a part of every day life in modern society, which I think is a positive advancement in human development, few people have been instructed in how to properly analyze them. They are usually used in a very crude- even vulgar, way.

Yes, it is incredibly dumb to translate the general statement, "60% of Americans aged 40 or over are 50lb+ overweight," (a fake statistic, just an example), into the specific statement, "I, or any individual, have a 60% chance of being overweight when I get to my 40s and beyond." But please keep in mind that our Fake News Media, who aren't full of mathematics enthusiasts, do this literally every single day. Tens of millions of people untrained in statistics have come to believe that this is a legitimate analysis.

Usually I'll apply "dumb" to a behavior if the person had the knowledge and means to do the right thing, but somehow managed to do the wrong thing. I don't think average people have what they need to understand statistics beyond percentages and ratios. Few people have any familiarity with one of statistics' most powerful and useful tools for understanding massive amounts of data, the normal distribution.

The fact that public schools output young adults with zero specific training in statistics, while knowing that politics and culture make extensive use of them, is almost as unforgivable as the fact that they emit students into our society with zero training in logic.

Blogger PJW Gent June 18, 2019 1:04 PM  

Eincrou wrote:...The fact that public schools output young adults with zero specific training in statistics, while knowing that politics and culture make extensive use of them, is almost as unforgivable as the fact that they emit students into our society with zero training in logic.
It is all about control, controlling the narrative and controlling the people. Can't have them being able to think for themselves and understand that what is being fed to them is BS.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 18, 2019 1:06 PM  

Hatman wrote:So what it sounds like is that you want a bunch of men to wife the sluts and have some babies with them ...

I've known men who married strippers and made it work for the long term. I probably wouldn't try that, but if you have a sufficiently strong personality, you could make it work.

Blogger Phelps June 18, 2019 1:11 PM  

Statistically, the guy writing that is an African woman with an IQ of 70.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 18, 2019 1:17 PM  

grey wrote:@93 the coloreds may have a totally different family 'structure,' vs whites but all families start the same, old-fashioned way.

Spawning - fertilizing eggs - isn't starting a family. The AfAms arenn't forming families, they are impregnating random females.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 18, 2019 1:34 PM  

Garuna wrote:Women don't have agency.

That's it in a nut shell. God made women to follow their men, and they will become what you lead them to be, if you are able to lead them. Some are not well suited to following you in particular, and some few are too damaged to be led, but all are made to follow a man.

Find a woman you are able to lead, and you can make her into a decent wife. Find a church and a community that will reinforce the idea that she is to submit and follow you, and it all gets a lot easier.

Women who are not being led by a decent man are misleading themselves. That's why the crazy cat ladies are crazy.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 2:08 PM  

One basic assumption i see recurring here, is that MGTOW (or men in general) have any concern whatsoever about 'propagating the species'. Consider, our society has become so hostile to (especially young, white) men, that entire swathes of them have essentially told society to pound sand. It might be tempting to scoff and condemn, especially to moralizing Christians demanding adherence to a particular flavour of Churchianity, but the simple fact is laws are heavily stacked against men, enough so that they are walking away.

Shame isnt going to work, neither will appeals to posterity, as proved by recent years of feminist pursuit of these exact strategies. The usual complaint about 'Tradcons', namely the approach of 'man up and marry those sluts for the good of the White Race' argument, is that Tradcons never get around to explaining why individual men should care.

Its almost like hypocrisy isnt exclusive to the Left or something, the way Churchians and Christians alike demand en 'lead', while Churches and congregations all over the country prostrate themselves before political correctness, and refuse to fight unjust laws and customs.

Can you guys see past that beam in your eyes?

Blogger FrankNorman June 18, 2019 2:16 PM  

my impression here is that there would be less hostility against the people who want to 'go their own way' if they actually just did that and weren't trying to Blackpill everyone else.

Blogger VD June 18, 2019 2:25 PM  

Shame isnt going to work, neither will appeals to posterity, as proved by recent years of feminist pursuit of these exact strategies.

Congratulations on missing the point. Do you not understand that we're not trying to FIX the Ebola, we're keeping it from spreading.

Can you guys see past that beam in your eyes?

It isn't there. No one has criticized Churchianity more aggressively than I have. The Churchians, too, are part of the problem.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 18, 2019 2:41 PM  

Factory wrote:Shame isnt going to work,...

Work for what? What do you think our host is trying to accomplish?

Proverbs 17:10 A rebuke goes deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred blows into a fool.

We shame the fools to instruct the wise.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 18, 2019 3:00 PM  

MGTOWs: Feeling sorry for yourselves may have an appeal like other addictions, such as drug abuse, alcoholism, homosexuality, or for that matter Gammatude, but it's ultimately unhealthy.

Blogger Brett baker June 18, 2019 3:00 PM  

The Stork, you idiot!

Blogger Noah B. June 18, 2019 3:21 PM  

It might be tempting to scoff and condemn, especially to moralizing Christians demanding adherence to a particular flavour of Churchianity, but the simple fact is laws are heavily stacked against men, enough so that they are walking away.

These are men who are quitting in the face of difficulty that isn't even all that severe by historical norms. I know a place where a husband and wife are buried along with all four of their children. Three of the children died as babies and toddlers and the eldest died when she was 16. Not long after the mother died and her epitaph reads that she was happy to leave this world. Tragedies like theirs weren't altogether uncommon in the 1600's. Too many Westerners have gotten soft and lost sight of what real hardship is.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 3:31 PM  

@121 Your response to a social malady that is destroying multiple civilizations is to keep it from spreading, by, what, trying to shame men into avoiding MGTOW? You do realize MGTOW is a description, not a prescription, right? Sure, like anything else that has legs socially, the weenies will latch on, then claim ownership....but the real issue are the tons of men seeing no percentage in the whole thing, then walking away. And thats something that will continue until there are real tangible benefits and protections for men. Given that 'conservatives' have claimed Family Values as thier territory, and given that current arguments against MGTOW are predicated on religious grounds way more often than not...why should MGTOW or any man for that matter see anything but rank hypocrisy? How many churches the posters here go to would more resemble Jesus's teachings, than those of Samaramis?

Sure, Churchians have undermined Christianity, but considering the decades of complete lack of opposition to gynocentric laws and practices, from nearly anyone in Traditional circles - coupled with the Feminist-like inability to make a rational argument against MGTOW (appeals to emotion and shaming seem to be all there is on offer), kinda weakens your reach in this area. And yes, I am aware of what you have done, and how long youve done it for.

Which is why i find it difficult to believe you dont know, on at least some level, exactly why men are turning away from society.

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
-Matthew 24:12

Blogger billo June 18, 2019 3:33 PM  

The thing that bothers me about this "don't get married" stuff is not just that it ignores all the good marriages, but it refuses to acknowledge responsibility to the extended family.

My father, after he helped put me through school, focused on helping my much younger cousins. It was very important to them -- to the point that two of the boys named their sons after him.

My wife and I were never able to have kids, but we have done the same with our nephews and nieces. We helped support them financially when the parents went through some hard times, we provide emotional support when needed, a place to stay when needed, contacts and support in getting a job, etc.

Declining marriage is a great loss for oneself. But having a successful marriage in an aunt and uncle is important to the clan even if they don't have kids (or the kids have grown up and moved out) -- as a role model for successful union beyond the parents, and as structural and financial support for the kids when needed. A single uncle can do some of it, but can't provide the role model for successful family life that is essential for coherence at the extended family/clan level. And, in spite of the claims of these folk, a single adult will almost certainly not have the financial resources of similarly-placed couple that has been in a multi-decade marriage. That's a huge responsibility, and ignoring it hurts the family at large.

It seems over the years, that society has lost the appreciation of the extended family. It went from the clan to the nuclear family, and now we are losing even that.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 3:36 PM  

“Tradcons never get around to explaining why individual men should care.”
That has been explained. But the sort that can not recognize this at all have detached themselves from reality. They are insane.

Blogger kurt9 June 18, 2019 3:39 PM  

FrankNorman wrote:my impression here is that there would be less hostility against the people who want to 'go their own way' if they actually just did that and weren't trying to Blackpill everyone else.



There is considerable truth to this.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 18, 2019 3:41 PM  

One basic assumption i see recurring here, is that MGTOW (or men in general) have any concern whatsoever about 'propagating the species'.

No one's assuming that at all, so you're starting from a misconception. Back up and check your own assumption and try again.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 3:42 PM  

@125 Life was harder in the past...colour me shocked. This does not address, even slightly, the source of the issue, which is imbalance. When one person has absolute power over another, would you think a healthy relationship even possible?

Statistical likelihood has nothing to do with the analysis itself. The usual example is: "If you were skydiving, what percentage likelihood of chute failure are you willing to accept?" I would extend that analogy and add: "What if the government lied about chute failure routinely, created laws that made chute failure financially attractive to skydiving companies as well as virtually guaranteeing they not only win any lawsuit against them, but will be 'compensated' for the trouble?" How much do you want to skydive now?

Its not will something bad happen, its what protections do I have if it does? Right now, there seems to be no limit on the injustice men can face, and no limit on the bad behaviour of women.

How exactly does marrying fix any of this? Is that even something that crossed your mind?

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 3:47 PM  

@128 I would be interested in seeing an argument making a good case. If you have a link, Ill happily read it.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 18, 2019 3:48 PM  

You do realize MGTOW is a description, not a prescription, right?

If that were true, we wouldn't be talking about it. Some may only use the term to describe a trend, but many push it as a "movement" which they insist will accomplish something. MGTOW, sexbots, and artificial wombs--all part of the same discussion held many, many times about how we're going to fix society by taking power away from women.

And they aren't totally wrong that taking power away from women is an essential step to fixing society. It's just that their methods won't work, and their attitude ensures that even people who sympathize with them end up wanting to give them noogies.

Blogger billo June 18, 2019 3:53 PM  

@131

Marrying fixes a lot of this. There is a huge financial benefit to a *successful* marriage. Married men live longer and are happier with their lives, in general.

The problem is that you are looking at the *state* to fix marriages. That has never worked, and never will. Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman, and between the couple and God. The problem is that a lot of married couples don't see that responsibility or recognize that covenant. Accepting that covenant means that you are committed to making the marriage work even when there are bad times, and even when one of the partners fails temporarily at their part in the covenant.

The key is choosing the right partner -- one that shares your values and your commitment. The fact that people who pair off without that thoughtfulness or commitment is not an indictment against marriage. It's an indictment of bad judgment on the part of one or both partners. Don't look to the government to ensure your success in marriage, or for it to bail you out. Make sure that both partners are committed to it as a sacrament before God.

Blogger billo June 18, 2019 3:55 PM  

Sigh. Should read "...without that thoughtfulness or commitment *fail* is not an indictment..." Bad editing.

Blogger InformationMerchant June 18, 2019 4:06 PM  

MGTOW started off badly and hasn't improved. It's a variation of "if I have no money or stuff, I can't lose anything in a divorce. Checkmate rich people."

It can't even do what it says to do. Cody Wilson, in addition to making gun control impossible, was kind enough to demonstrate that even doing exactly what MGTOW says to do isn't enough. They advocate paying for sex instead of relationships. Cody Wilson paid for sex and got his entire life ruined by the person he paid for sex. Life still ruined by a woman.

MGTOW either have to change their philosophy to advocate celibacy or admit total failure, even if we ignore the premise of no family is somehow winning.

Blogger Beardy Bear June 18, 2019 4:10 PM  

First Chronological commandment: Multiply and replenish the earth.

First Great Commandment: Love God

Christ's commentary:
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If you reject this commandment, you reject God, which is definitively evil. When you reject the gift, you reject the giver of the gift.

Blogger Roddie Piper June 18, 2019 4:16 PM  

Consider Ariel Castro or Phil Garrido kidnapping a tween girl, keeping her in a basement cell, raping babies out of her, then getting caught and sentenced to forty consecutive life terms plus 500 years.

His genetic line continues; the MGTOW's does not. Who will be the happier man as he draws his last breath?

Blogger Noah B. June 18, 2019 4:28 PM  

"When one person has absolute power over another, would you think a healthy relationship even possible?"

You are choosing to believe lies. As long as you do that you are beyond help.

Blogger Nathan Bruno June 18, 2019 4:31 PM  

Anyone who wants to blame Christianity as having not done the right thing to secure him a bride should look in Psalm 17:

"13 Arise, O Lord! Confront him, subdue him!
Deliver my soul from the wicked by your sword,
14 from men by your hand, O Lord,
from men of the world whose portion is in this life.[b]
You fill their womb with treasure;[c]
they are satisfied with children,
and they leave their abundance to their infants.

15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness;
when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness."

Whining about being "divorce raped" or otherwise financially put out by the government is not finding satisfaction in the privilege of beholding the face of God.

If the church has to be fixed so that it can be the soil to support the things you wish you had in life, go set about being useful to that, which starts by having belief and fealty to the scriptures. You can often either fix the system or achieve your goals; sometimes, people have to sacrifice specific goals to fix the system.

There's an option if you don't want to marry and have kids; it's working to build God's kingdom, not sitting on your balls howling like a tomcat an an alley that some fine, tight piece wasn't sent your way.

Even the legendary Heartiste used to acknowledge that there was a second, narrow coterie of men who would be this sort of monastic, but the Scriptures and Heartiste agree: it's a small group, and they don't spend their time recruiting.

Blogger JAG June 18, 2019 4:34 PM  

peacefulposter wrote:Is it too late for a man to have kids at 50?

Most men stay fertile up until the day they die. You can father children at 90 if the opportunity arises.

Blogger Dirk Manly June 18, 2019 5:08 PM  

@55

"All these MGTOW complaining that the women are all sluts and whores. You're not fooling anyone. The sluts and whores don't want you. Get thee a fattie.'

Fatties generally have low standards, and feeling desperate for attention, actually sleep with more men than most hot chicks. The hot chick knows she has a line around the block, and so never feels desperate.

The fatty will go home with any guy who says, "Hi" to her within the last hour before closing time.

Blogger Dirk Manly June 18, 2019 5:19 PM  

@81

"MGTOW is not for every man, but neither, in my opinion, is it evil. At least not evil to the degree that the sins of fornication and adultery are which are the cause of the problem in the first place."

I can say this about it: It HAS got the attention of women -- they're actively complaining that men don't want to get married. Once they finally admit that having a legal system that favors them 100% is the cause of men keeping their distance, and admitting that the feminists "punish men at every opportunity" agenda is cancer to the average (non-lesbian) woman's personal life, then women will start demanding that there be a change.

The question is -- will it happen before or after the demographic war is lost to the orcs and other invaders.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 5:23 PM  

Look at all the 'man up' in this thread. You offer men *nothing*, and scoff when they dont listen to you. This is virtue signalling par excellence.

Christ had an answer....turn the other cheek. Too bad a miniscule amount of Christians actually know what that means (hint: make them address you as an equal, or make them give you a reason to respond in kind). Or giving your cloak when you lose your coat. Or walking two miles with Roman gear instead of the required one (Romans were punished for mistreatment, walking two made the soldier have to fight to relieve your burden).

These are weaksauce arguments that failed decades ago. Continue and lose. Badly.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 5:29 PM  

@134 Considering the Government enacted the laws that are driving men and women apart, and MGTOW wouldnt exist unless government was signal boosting hypergamy....who do YOU suggest 'fix it'? Elves?

Blogger Nathan Bruno June 18, 2019 5:34 PM  

@Factory

From whence do you get the exegesis that "turn the other cheek" was grounds to eventually let you respond in kind? What early church father interpreted it in that way (I see nothing in the literal words to support this, hence I ask you for a contemporary 1st C AD reading of that)? How would you square that for being commanded to pray for your enemies? How does that even square with Proverbs 25:21-22?

If you're going to find meaning in the Christian life, you're going to have to submit to the Biblical authority as it teaches what Christ said, with some good exegesis from what the Bible says in the plain, literal reading of a good translation, as it was generally received by the people who received it.

In your two examples, you've put a human vindictive spin on the teachings of the God Man, who Himself walked to His own execution - though He could have put it off, it had to happen, and so, like a sheep dumb to the slaughter, He walked without resistance to be executed.

You should dedicate your life to prayer and understanding the Scripture - and let the Scripture talk to you; don't attempt to put your beliefs on it. Let go of yourself. They say that Islam is about "submission", but true Christianity is learning to submit to the Holy Spirit to let yourself go and to be led by the Will of God. It is not getting revenge or getting even or even getting something - the Bible tells you that Christians who follow Christ will be hated, and that vengeance is not ours, but vengeance is God's. I don't see much "love your enemy" in the two exegetical insights you've offered for a meaning behind "turn the other cheek" or "walk two miles".


Blogger Dirk Manly June 18, 2019 5:34 PM  

@120

"my impression here is that there would be less hostility against the people who want to 'go their own way' if they actually just did that and weren't trying to Blackpill everyone else."

Absolutely. The very fact that they are evangelizing puts a lie to the "I am going MY OWN way."... no.... those guys want company... lots and lots of company.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 5:35 PM  

Factory, I do not have a link. It is not a conclusion I got from someone else. Perfect, imperfect, whatever.

Aside from religion. Aside from religious conviction. And the simply depressed, distraught. From a purely materialist perspective. Even a fly, single sell creatures with no brains, follow the biological imperative of life. Life, at the most basic, is about continuance in some way. That is reality.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 5:42 PM  

@146 https://cpj.ca/defiance-not-compliance-turning-other-cheek/

Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I seek him through seeking truth. Remove the beam from your own eye.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 5:49 PM  

@148 You are missing a simple fact. MGTOW arent choosing it out of preference, they choose it out of necessity or prudence.

VERY few MGTOW are incels, most are average guys that dont like the odds. You guys can tell yourselves youre doing "God's work" by chastising them, but not a single one of you can address the real problems. Like so many others before you, you claim men can avoid ruin by being Alpha enough, or 'choosing right', and just look how YOU are married and its all great! Until youre not married anymore, at least. Youre all a bunch of narcissistic virtue signallers demanding men get back on the Plantation 'for the good of society' and because God Wills It!

Real great, fresh arguments there. Nothing bad has EVER happened with that kind of reasoning...nope...nossir.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 5:56 PM  

@148 So are we to be mindless automatons, shuffling towards enslavement because horny?

Who exactly is the thirsty party here, because the guy forsaking women out of prudence seems to have a hump on his back...

You people think incels and MGTOW are pathetic because they dont devote thier lives to others without regard to reciprocity, and cant figure out why such accusations are met with a laughing affirmative. But its TOTALLY not because you have biases of your own...oh no...youre Godly people after all...not like those fake Churchians.

And you feel qualified to criticise others why, exactly?

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 6:04 PM  

@150 No, they don't. They give up. I don't think pathetic, I think insane, temporary or long term. Qualification has nothing to do with it, it is observation of life and non-life at the most basic.

Blogger Nathan Bruno June 18, 2019 6:09 PM  

@Factory

I thank you for the link, as it allows for clarity in understanding the difference. We disagree on exegetical principles. The liberal/social justice/progressive gospel - to which you subscribe in Wink - does believe that the authority of a reading comes from the reader, and, therefore, the message of one of Jesus's teachings can have new meaning in different contexts. Traditionalists would look to authority in the authorial side of that equation. I subscribe to the principle that, although we must contextualize our applications, a verse cannot mean now what it did not mean then, to its original audience.

I do not believe that Wink's exegesis holds up to the teaching of the New Testament, and, as such, it violates the principle of using no specific key verse to teach a principle that is at odds with the rest of Scripture.

If Wink's exegesis is correct, why did Paul endure all things so as to win some to Christ?

What of Proverbs 15:1?

Why did the early martyrs march happily to be burned, and why did the bishops have to restrain the faithful from volunteering to be burned, if they were to nonviolently assert their human sovereignty and equality to the Roman soldiers?

Whereas the commentary you sent suggests that the reading of "turn the other cheek" as to accept humiliation and further ridicule is arguing for inaction, how do you live at peace with everyone when your entire life is dedicated to ensuring that you've made clear that man sees you as his equal (Paul's use of that passage from Proverbs in 12:17-21)? Inaction is easy; why is the path of the suffering saint called "the narrow path" and a "hard way"?

http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html

Calvin's comment on this verse appears to have the history of traditional interpretation behind it, and it is not inaction, but rather learning through sanctification the patience of the saints:

When wrong has been done them (believers) in a single instance, he (Christ) wishes them to be trained by this example to meek submission, that by suffering they may learn to be patient. (John Calvin. "Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke" Calvin’s Commentaries. Baker. p. 299)

So far from expecting that Roman soldier to see him as his equal, Christ instructs the Christian to accept the shame and humiliation of Christian conduct so that, through suffering, the Christian can understand patience, which is one of the great characteristics of the saints and a fruit of the Spirit.

You want to be careful with the path of exegesis where you accept a novel understanding of a text. It's true that texts could have been misunderstood, but, if you have a basic belief in illumination by the Spirit, it is hard to accept that the text was misunderstood for so very long. This is why Calvin et al in the Reformation worked so hard to try to link their positions back to that of specific early Church fathers - a novel understanding of a passage is usually considered a wrong understanding of a passage. (You can have novel applications, of course, but the idea of a novel understanding does not fit within what is often termed the grammatical-historical-literal hermeneutic; Wink would definitely not subscribe to that hermeneutic).

I have to laugh a little that a proponent of MGTOW and the rights of men would point to a guru known for having presented his message of progressive spiritual insights as the coequal with his wife. This is really a left-wing source for this interpretation.

Remember, in that same sermon, Jesus blessed the meek. Praus is translated gentle or meek in the ESV, and is glossed with humility, humble, and gentleness. I don't see that word being compatible with an attitude of daring the Roman soldier in the manner you described.

Blogger Rhys June 18, 2019 6:18 PM  

You can call their bluff on this one anyway. Fine, don't get married, I agree the system is stacked. Now point me to the MGTOWs who are raising stable families with women they are not legally married to. That would be a relatively substantial protest without having to having to miss out, if one could pull it off. Yet they have an excuse for this one as well, oh common law marriage.

It's funny how, despite going their own way, most of them advocate sleeping with women and ghosting them afterwards. It's clear as day what these people are and it's beyond pathetic.

Blogger Rhys June 18, 2019 6:28 PM  

Factory wrote:When one person has absolute power over another, would you think a healthy relationship even possible?

So a healthy relationship with God is impossible?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2019 6:30 PM  

If you go your own way, no children. That a the only outcome. Fine you escape divorce rape. You win at life. And you will be alone when you grow old, while our enemies are breeding like rabbits.

Blogger Scott June 18, 2019 6:47 PM  

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Some Guy, probably.

Blogger Hatman June 18, 2019 7:02 PM  

You can use surrogacy to have children and hire a nanny to help you when the kids are young. Wife's aren't necessary. And if you have a relationship with a women at a later point she has no rights over your kids.

Blogger billo June 18, 2019 7:07 PM  

Factory wrote:@134 Considering the Government enacted the laws that are driving men and women apart, and MGTOW wouldnt exist unless government was signal boosting hypergamy....who do YOU suggest 'fix it'? Elves?

Actually, St. Paul made the suggestion regarding a different power relationship in his letter to Philemon. In that letter, he returned the slave Onesimus to his owner, Philemon of Colossae. Paul notes that the relationship between slave and owner is one of power, but further states that it is *irrelevant* between Christian believers because the Christian relationship trumps the statutory relationship. Thus, he returns Onesimus to his owner, writing "Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord."

We exist within the context of the State and of the world. But we are also separate from it. As the author of 1 John wrote: "[We] are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us." Or, as Jesus said: "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

So it is with marriage. It *doesn't matter* what the State says or does. The only thing that matters is the relationship between the partners and the relationship of the partners to the Christ.

Who do I suggest fix it? I know that it is already fixed, because marriage is not a matter of the State, but of God. The error of those who despise marriage because of legal issues and their distaste for women view marriage from the viewpoint of the world, and not from the viewpoint of God.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 7:18 PM  

@153 "although we must contextualize our applications, a verse cannot mean now what it did not mean then, to its original audience"

To that I would say I look to the Bible for confirmation, not Theologians. Two witnesses are required of a given thing to be true, that sort of thing. The Church was corrupt almost from it's inception, utilizing priests of Mithras for it's clergy, proclaiming Mary the new 'Queen of Heaven' in the very city the previous 'Queen of Heaven' (Diana) was dedicated to, the Church stopped being legit pretty much right around the time there were no more martyrs. Apparently, when you go along to get along, you don't get persecuted for it. Also, power corrupts.

"So far from expecting that ... great characteristics of the saints and a fruit of the Spirit."

Sure he does. Can you give me the verse on that one? Or is that an interpretation of the verse you are repeating? The early Christians were standing up for something, they had unpopular but correct beliefs (at least in my eyes they were correct) in a time when people routinely sacrificed everything from livestock to offspring to false gods.

When Christianity became the Official Religion, this was no longer so. No one was burned or fed to lions or otherwise martyred, a power structure grew up around the Church, and all sorts of corruption has since taken root, even grown new trees. The early martyrs and Calvin have, I suspect, almost zero in common. A fully translated version of the Dead Sea Scrolls would help figure this out, but for some reason it hasn't happened yet.

"It's true that texts could have been misunderstood ... it is hard to accept that the text was misunderstood for so very long."

Hmmm...

"But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

...I don't think it hard to accept at all.


"I have to laugh a little that a proponent of MGTOW ... really a left-wing source for this interpretation."

Merely a convenient link to the concept I was referring to. I read a longer article on it a while back addressing all three points I originally made, but couldn't find the link. In any case, I don't think it's at all weird to take cultural norms into consideration, especially since those cultural norms are in place to this day in many areas of the world, including the area referenced in the Bible.


"Praus is translated gentle ... daring the Roman soldier in the manner you described. "

If you have a child who does something wrong, what is the most effective way to correct the behaviour? Do you yell at them? Do you ignore them and hope they stop doing it? Or do you show them (and the world) the effect they are having, and offer them a way to choose to correct their behaviour? You see confrontation, I see publicization. Your words of meek and humble are true, pride is a real bitch, but the idea of suffering to gain patience sure rings of manipulation on a grand scale to me. To counsel against even so much as drawing public attention to the injustice strikes me as downright unchristian, by the way, unless you can point me to the bit in the Bible where Jesus blithely strides past someone doing evil..?

I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar or anything of the sort. In fact, I spent most of my life rejecting Christ because my only experience was via traditional churches filled with hypocrisy and self-serving interpretations. My 20 year red pill journey is what led me to Christ. If Salvation had to come through traditional churches I'd still be a non believer, because I could never stand the Holier than Thou crap so endemic to Religion.

Then again, I actually read the Book of Enoch and believe it should be part of the Bible....so there's that....

Blogger billo June 18, 2019 7:19 PM  

Factory wrote:And you feel qualified to criticise others why, exactly?

I don't criticize nonbelievers for making foolish choices, because that is their nature.

However, the Christ commands us to criticize and judge other believers, because that is the only way to avoid serious error. As Paul notes in his letter to the Corinthians: "If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

If you look at the New Testament, particularly letters, but also the Acts of the Apostles, you will see a great deal written about judging, guiding, criticizing, and expelling people within the body of Christ. Your use of the word "Churchian," represents your attempt to do this. There will always be differing opinions because of fundamental ambiguities in the faith -- both a weakness but also a profound strength. But the fact is that Jesus designed the faith so that the more profound errors can be judged and removed by the body with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Paul noted that it may be better for some to not marry, though for him it was primarily because he believed Jesus would return within a generation, thus making marriage obsolete. However, he did not despise marriage. Jesus and the Apostles all held it in high regard, and provided strict rules for entering and maintaining that covenant.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 7:21 PM  

@155 "So a healthy relationship with God is impossible?"

Do you think it an accident that God does not make Himself clearly shown? How legitimate would the 'love' be knowing the full Truth, do you think? This choice was given to humanity, and ONLY to humanity. A great gift, ignorance.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 7:24 PM  

@159

That kind of fatalism must have Satan laughing. So....do nothing to fix iniquity...just have faith in Jesus.

Yeah, that'll be popular with the young generations....

Blogger Meng Greenleaf June 18, 2019 7:29 PM  

I think some MGTOW are dysgenic individuals who post hoc justify their lack of desire to procreate. But most are just sheep, boys born to Boomer's who weren't raised properly. I was one of these. Luckily I formed a family. I honestly cannot imagine life without children. I'd be meaningless.

Blogger Rhys June 18, 2019 7:30 PM  

Factory wrote:Do you think it an accident that God does not make Himself clearly shown? How legitimate would the 'love' be knowing the full Truth, do you think?
Do not fucking answer my questions with more questions. If you don't have answers, just keep your mouth shut instead of posturing. Your entire post amounts to absolutely nothing and didn't even broach the subject I brought up.

Blogger VD June 18, 2019 7:45 PM  

And you feel qualified to criticise others why, exactly?

Because we take the risks from which they run.

Blogger Bohemond June 18, 2019 7:48 PM  

@144 "Look at all the 'man up' in this thread. You offer men *nothing*, and scoff when they dont listen to you. This is virtue signalling par excellence."

The lack of understanding and compassion here is staggering. As someone who is very fortunate genetically, I don't have much of a problem, but for a young man in the USA who is in the 5-7/10 range, the situation must be very, very frustrating. Most of the 'advice' is "become a 10, dude." This is about as useful as telling someone with 100 IQ to just raise it to 140.

The core of the problem is simply that for every decent woman in the USA, there are many decent men. College ruins young women and nearly all the families who under more sane, normal circumstances would be producing decent young women are sending them off to college. I know personally many decent young Christian girls who at 18 were sent off to college and ruined.

Sure, someone who is an 8+ or who was born in a good community and knows good families can follow the 'advice' here and find a reasonable young woman. But what about the average guy who didn't grow up in a good, Christian community? Mr. Mid-to-High-Delta over there is lucky to find a 5 who has gotten bored riding the carousel.

I wonder if its because many of the people here are a bit older and not aware of the reality of youth culture in the USA, especially post-smartphone USA.

Blogger CostelloM June 18, 2019 7:57 PM  

Getting married while living in the US is not the wisest thing to do even if one argues the statistics inflate the risk. We buy car insurance for a low risk of having an accident and health insurance for the same reason. Marriage is good and of GOD but why take the plunge in a place where if the worst happens your life can be essentially destroyed. Marry and American woman? Okay do it in Chile or some place where 6.9 million out of 330 million aren't under some form of correctional supervison. There are greener pastures out there where the government isn't nearly as oppressive or organized and one can marry and raise children without having to wake up one morning with a choice to either be a slave, go to prison or go John Wick. Have 3 kids myself (yes both parents American) and love them to death but I also don't live in the US. Not impossible.

Blogger billo June 18, 2019 8:02 PM  

Factory wrote:@159

That kind of fatalism must have Satan laughing. So....do nothing to fix iniquity...just have faith in Jesus.


Why, yes. Just have faith in Jesus. That is, in fact, the answer. And He will guide you through the Holy Spirit and with the help of the body of Christ.

You state that you are a Christian. But being a Christian *is* living by faith. If you are not doing so, then you need to re-examine your relationship to God. As Paul wrote, "For we live by faith, not by sight."

But here's the key, if you live by faith, then your decisions will be made in the context of faith. You will choose your partner within that context, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You will maintain your marriage within that faith. And you will mature within that relationship and within your relationship with God by that faith.

You do not "fix" iniquity. God does. You follow God's directives. Through faith and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And when you do, you allow God to "fix" that little bit of the world you affect. And when other believers do so, they do the same, and God does the same. It is not your job to change all the world. It is your job to change that little bit of the world you are involved with. And you do that one life at a time. Through faith.


Yeah, that'll be popular with the young generations....

If you are a Christian, your job is not to be popular. Your job is to live by faith.

Blogger Silent Draco June 18, 2019 8:07 PM  

VERY aware of Shiny Box Socheeez, and working with young men about all the unintended side effects from it, for them and females. Working on this part for about 15-20 years, with mixed success.

If you want to have fun, get them to put phone aside in a lockbox or meet in a place with minimal coverage. After 20 minutes, watch the withdrawal symptoms.

Part is teaching and using the commo hierarchy: in person first, phone voice second, email third, text fourth. Fourth, because the information content is low, usually. Part is a reminder that internet, images and text are forever. Part is encouraging them to speak, then think, in complete sentences or thoughts. Then expand this ability to paragraphs.

If they can get thinking and contact organized, then we can work on finding better women than OMG4Feelz!, or whatever name is used.

Hardest part is getting them to think out, then speak, about what they want from life, longer term. This has to come first, so we can figure long term and also shift to their needs. Work on th eff ir campaign to get a 6-7 before they're on the carousel, or on too long.

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 8:25 PM  

Bohemond, there is no quick compassion. I could tell them some happily ever after story, and the they go home to, nothing. I could tell them they will be happy with the life they live in in the dark of night when nobody is looking, but would it be true? They quote from the bible, but they are full of shit. Excuse, after, excuse, after excuse. But even so, I don't think them pathetic, I don't belittle with pitty. They have created the situation they are in, and nobody will fix it until they fix themselves. Them fixing themselves, and having at least some opportunity for more, that is the only compassion they may have, and they must give it to themselves. And no, you do not have understanding, you have pitty. Though you seem to mean well. These people are running from themselves, not from the world. They live trapped in their heads, detached from the happiness possible.

Blogger Bohemond June 18, 2019 8:55 PM  

@171 "Them fixing themselves"

Once again, "Just have 140 IQ, bro."

The average to slightly above average man cannot 'fix' himself. There's nothing broken about being average. Telling the average man to be better than average isn't helpful. The prospects for women for the average man in the USA is horrible. It's much less bad in most other countries. Even most other Western countries. These men are identifying a real problem, one Vox has talked about on at least a few occasions: A regular man in the USA no longer has the expectation of being able to have a family if he works hard.

This is just the truth. It is unfortunate. It is sad. Sure, some regular men are going to be lucky in this regard and beat the odds, but it's a rough road for Deltas right now in the USA. Telling Deltas to 'man up' and 'fix themselves' isn't going to help anyone.

"These people are running from themselves, not from the world."

Many are running from the dumpster fire that is the modern USA. Many don't know that there are better options for them elsewhere.

Blogger Rhys June 18, 2019 9:13 PM  

I really hate how much context is willfully blanked out by these cretins. To remind all you of the chain of events:

1. Vox posts "The Purpose of a Man" darkstream to celebrate father's day
2. MGTOWs attack the comments section of this video in act of instigation and aggression
3. Vox punches back at the MGTOWs
4. the MGTOWs now claim that Vox is instigating an attack on "average men" who can't find a wife or have little prospects for family.

As he said, liars, all of them. Every single last one.

Blogger Johannmon June 18, 2019 9:47 PM  

Factory wrote:When Christianity became the Official Religion, this was no longer so. No one was burned or fed to lions or otherwise martyred, a power structure grew up around the Church, and all sorts of corruption has since taken root, even grown new trees. The early martyrs and Calvin have, I suspect, almost zero in common.

The church has always had corruption and the wheat always grown up with the tares. It will be the case until Christ returns. It was so in the NT church (Nicolaitans, the Judaizers, etc.), it continued into the 2nd c and beyond w/gnosticism and Sabellian modalism, donatism, Arianism, and so on. All of the great creeds of the church were a response to heresies as the church wrestled with various doctrines over centuries.

Bohemond wrote:Telling Deltas to 'man up' and 'fix themselves' isn't going to help anyone.

1 Cor 16:13: "Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong"

Blogger SirHamster June 18, 2019 10:43 PM  

Bohemond wrote:Telling the average man to be better than average isn't helpful.

Shaming MGTOW idiocy so that Average Joe gets that they are lying losers, however, is quite helpful.


Johannmon wrote:Bohemond wrote:Telling Deltas to 'man up' and 'fix themselves' isn't going to help anyone.

1 Cor 16:13: "Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong"


Following orders in obedience to the Bible as God's Word will definitely help someone. Whether now, or eternally.

Christian MGTOW is an oxymoron. Follow God's Way, slackers.

Maybe you're stuck wandering the desert for 40 years. Deal with it. The Promised Land is your reward if you stick with the program.

Or you can die in the desert. Sad!

Blogger justaguy June 18, 2019 10:51 PM  

Why do the poor put upon men who comment above take the advice to not be a soy boy, not just sit and play games/watch porn as something impossible to do by saying it is the same as raising one's IQ? Yes high school is a cesspool of incredible stupidity, but one's mores/charact3er aren't built on those hours of imprisonment.

The basic numbers haven't changed, for almost any age cohort there are more women than men and the basics of adulthood (Deltahood) aren't impossible. Being a Delta probably will not make the top 25% of women look at you, but you have a larger pool than that. Being a Delta is just fine, you are in the largest group and there are women there-- you actually have to pursue them and settle.

As for the Gammas and lower who don't join adulthood--- well if you stay there, statistically there is little hope for you, but hey, have fun playing those video games.

Blogger harry case June 18, 2019 11:06 PM  

Nothing about average ability that hard work wont maximize. Just because you have to work harder to get what comes easy to others doesnt make it not worthwhile. My whole life has been based on working hard to make up for a lack of ability. Life is not a race to the finish line but a hike to the promised land. Dont compare yourself to others in judgement Watch the successful and learn from them. Dont imitate what they do make the things you admire in them your own by practice

Blogger xevious2030 June 18, 2019 11:13 PM  

I haven't been telling them to be better than average. The rest appears to be self identification, so not much point.

Blogger Bohemond June 18, 2019 11:21 PM  

@176

"Being a Delta probably will not make the top 25% of women look at you, but you have a larger pool than that. Being a Delta is just fine, you are in the largest group and there are women there-- you actually have to pursue them and settle."

Yes, the numbers have changed. The whole point I was trying to make, that seems completely lost here, is that this isn't the case in the USA at the moment.

Do some reading on the subject. There's plenty data on dating habits. In mainstream culture in the USA, being a Delta doesn't even get the top %80 of young (under ~30) women.

As far as good Christian women, as I said, there aren't very many. It is much harder for women to resist the temptations of modern life than men and negative behaviors are pushed on women much more than on men.

Things have been moving in this direction for a long time, but the smartphone accelerated it massively.

Obviously there are options for Deltas, but they likely don't involve women in the USA, because there aren't enough who are available relative to the number of Deltas -- barring single mothers and women who just jumped off the carousel.

Claiming that Deltas aren't being given as raw a deal as they, in fact, are in the USA and telling them to 'act like men and be strong' isn't going to help anyone. That's good advice for Gammas, but Deltas aren't failures as men, though they are being treated as such in the USA.

Twenty, heck even ten, years ago in the USA things were quiet different. They are different in most other countries. But in the USA, unless a Delta is willing to marry far below his SMV, he likely should look elsewhere.

"Why do the poor put upon men who comment above take the advice to not be a soy boy, not just sit and play games/watch porn as something impossible to do by saying it is the same as raising one's IQ?"

I never said anything of the kind. I'm not sure why there is this false dichotomy being presented here by you and several other people replying to me. What I've been trying to explain is that the men who are not losers, are not weak, do not need to 'be strong,' because they are already completely fine, normal, salt-of-the-earth, quality Deltas, are in a tough situation when it comes to finding in a wife in the USA in 2019.

There's plenty these men can do, but it doesn't involve just manning up. They have to use their brains, as well.

Also, I'm not poor nor am I put upon. I don't have this problem. I also get the impression that a lot of the men here don't have it either. But I doubt it is a normal sampling of the male population who read this blog.

Blogger Kat June 18, 2019 11:27 PM  

Hatman wrote:You can use surrogacy to have children and hire a nanny to help you when the kids are young. Wife's aren't necessary. And if you have a relationship with a women at a later point she has no rights over your kids.

Women who whore out their wombs are more depraved than women who whore out their vaginas.

Blogger Bohemond June 18, 2019 11:28 PM  

@175 "Shaming MGTOW idiocy so that Average Joe gets that they are lying losers, however, is quite helpful."

Clearly! But I think some compassion for the raw deal the Average Joe is getting in the USA is also important. And it's not like the MGTOW haven't identified a real problem, it's just that they have no idea what to do about it so they ran away.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 11:41 PM  

@166 You realize many MGTOW took those risks too, and found the payoff to be less than enticing?

Look man, this is straight up posturing. You have a good point, MGTOW is dysgenic. Problem is, its also an easily foreseen consequence of current year social policy. Shaming does nothing, at all, to serve your ends. Women are both better at it, and more persistent, and they have been failing in that strategy for decades.

If you really care to, youre better served to find a way to alleviate injustice fuelling the trend. I wish you luck in that regard. But Tradcons lost the moral high ground decades ago. Learn from past mistakes or dont.

Blogger Factory June 18, 2019 11:42 PM  

@165 The wrath, the wrath is palpable. And scary. Really scary.

Blogger mike June 18, 2019 11:58 PM  

Dat point about statistics is like straight from my dead twatter, hell yeah!!

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 19, 2019 12:04 AM  

Picking on MGTOW bois gets boring after a while. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.

Blogger Noah B. June 19, 2019 12:10 AM  

What I've been trying to explain is that the men who are not losers, are not weak, do not need to 'be strong,' because they are already completely fine, normal, salt-of-the-earth, quality Deltas, are in a tough situation when it comes to finding in a wife in the USA in 2019.

If they aren't losers we're not talking about them. MGTOW are losers because they quit.

In mainstream culture in the USA, being a Delta doesn't even get the top %80 of young (under ~30) women.

If 80% of women are inaccessible to a guy then he isn't a typical delta. The good news is that many of the things holding those guys back are fixable but it takes some effort and often some brutal introspection. That's what none of these whiny retards want to hear.

There's plenty these men can do, but it doesn't involve just manning up. They have to use their brains, as well.

Mostly it involves manning up - putting in effort to improve yourself, being honest with yourself about what your own shortcomings and realistic prospects are, and just becoming comfortable talking to women. Stupid people have sex too.

Blogger VD June 19, 2019 1:52 AM  

Shaming does nothing, at all, to serve your ends.

It most certainly does. You narcissists don't grasp that we're not trying to save you. You're already a waste.

Blogger Ranger June 19, 2019 1:59 AM  

To the Christian MGTOWs: Get thee to a monastery. Its your only chance of happiness in this life and salvation in the next.
And if history is any guide, you will even play a great part in preserving civilization.

Blogger Bohemond June 19, 2019 2:17 AM  

@186
"If they aren't losers we're not talking about them. MGTOW are losers because they quit."

Yes, but Deltas are the most at risk to become MGTOW.

"If 80% of women are inaccessible to a guy then he isn't a typical delta."

~80% of women under 30, generally speaking, aren't available to a Delta. Obviously it changes a bit after 30. Just go look up the distributions. On college campuses, fewer than 20% of the men are getting 80% of the women. Dating sites and apps regularly release their statistics. It's all similar. Tinder is worse, with something like 90-10 instead of ~80-20.

Remember, this is the USA. I was just in Italy, and things are completely different there. And obviously a Delta can do fine in poorer countries.

"The good news is that many of the things holding those guys back are fixable but it takes some effort and often some brutal introspection. That's what none of these whiny retards want to hear."

There should be no need to 'fix' Deltas. The 'fix' that 'works' is turning them into Betas or fake Alphas. But if Delta did that, there'd be no Deltas to actually get work done that needs to be done. A functional society needs Deltas.

In my personal experience, the men who I've seen end up doing MTGOW (whether or not they call it that, many just check out) are Deltas. Gammas don't do well enough to get burned in the first place.

Blogger Factory June 19, 2019 2:27 AM  

@187 You assume I am MGTOW, but Ive been in a good LTR for 5 or so years now. This is an issue I warned about repeatedly about a decade ago - that eventually the juice wouldnt be worth the squeeze. For all the talk of the Sexual Marketplace going on few seem to accept that poor quality product, overpriced and monopolistic products, or just plain hazardous products dont get bought.

And while you may not be trying to 'sell' MGTOWs, from a purely marketing perspective you merely add a tiny increment to the already cacaphonous roar of shaming most men are now subjected to...thus, the 'sexodus'. But to the casual onlooker....well, when was the last time you bought something due to negative pressure (eg. "what, you gotta ask the wife? I thought you were a man!" "If you dont have a pair of these, all the kids will think youre a dork", etc)? Last time you saw negative pressure being applied, did it make you want to deal with that guy?

And thats just the presentation. What you are selling to the onlooker is a box of air. Intangible. The potential costs are quite tangible. People usually think emotionally, then rationalize thier decision, and the emotion you are dealing with is 'fight or flight', so Im betting you lose more onlookers than you gain, and those you gain are likely to annoy you.

"Suck it up buttercup" might work when you have a common task or a sense of fraternity, but seriously, if "God wills it!" is the best argument, youre dead in the water. And thats coming from a believer, I agree with you on the desireability of relationships, I just think more of the same shaming is, well, frankly stupid.

Blogger Anglican June 19, 2019 2:34 AM  

So marrying a Bangkok pole dancer is a bad idea?

Blogger Toby Temple June 19, 2019 2:34 AM  

Sexudos? That's just sad.

What was the prescription when you are burning with passion again?

Blogger Factory June 19, 2019 2:37 AM  

@187 Full disclosure, I know the blog the term Men Going Thier Own Way (No Ma am), the author (Tom Snark), and that the term originally meant 'MRAs that refuse to formulate or follow plans'...ie, herding cats. The idea of MGTOW as a 'movement' is absurd. It is a reaction.

Blogger Factory June 19, 2019 2:38 AM  

@193 Penicillin, if memory serves...

Blogger Toby Temple June 19, 2019 2:40 AM  

Marry, Factory. Marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

So make up your mind about it.

Blogger Scott June 19, 2019 2:49 AM  

@151 "And you feel qualified to criticise others why, exactly?"

Matthew 7: 3-5

"3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Read the second half of verse 5. Re-read it until you understand.

MGTOW was a mote in my eye for five years. I have a responsibility to you to help you pull it out of yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llNkANSOkmw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGh3KDkonQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ChFolBerU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzjwVeEHj5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2DPvzgeW6c

Blogger VD June 19, 2019 5:23 AM  

Stop repeat commenting, Scott C. And MGTOW is a matter of cowardice; it most certainly is NOT one of honor.

Your appeal to nonexistent honor could hardly be more Gamma. It's very much reminiscent of the Perfect Gentleman Secret King killer.

Blogger ScottC June 19, 2019 5:34 AM  

What happens when men get divorced? Everyone assumes that the husband wasn't able to satisfy his wife. When women can do no wrong, society blames divorce on men. This isn't just about the man's assets, it's about his reputation.

Blogger Paul M June 19, 2019 7:43 AM  

binks webelf wrote:Another very basic filter-- Christianity.

The divorce rate in the church is pretty much the same as the divorce rate in the world, for the simple reason that most christians don't really believe.

Blogger sammibandit June 19, 2019 9:41 AM  

If shaming didn't work it wouldn't be a go-to tool women use. I've lost track of how many words in English alone there are for women who use that tool too often: scold, shrew, goaler, harpee, banshee, battleaxe, nag, etc Probably missing many. Better to be shamed by a man than by a woman as men know how to stop without being asked/trained.

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