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Friday, June 21, 2019

There is no "we", Benny

The Littlest Chickenhawk wants war and he wants it now!
Disproportionate response to attacks on US assets are a good way of showing our enemies that we will mash them if they continue to escalate. The US doesn’t want war. You know who doesn’t want war even more? The ayatollahs who will find themselves quite dead if war occurs.
Our enemies? There is no "us". Benny and the neoclowns are observably more the enemies of the American people than the ayatollahs have ever been. And Benny has been going on about war with Iran for more than a decade now; he has been calling for war with Iran, as well as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and Pakistan, since 2005.

Did Iraq pose an immediate threat to our nation? Perhaps not. But toppling Saddam Hussein and democratizing Iraq prevent his future ascendance and end his material support for future threats globally. The same principle holds true for Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Pakistan and others: Pre-emption is the chief weapon of a global empire. No one said empire was easy, but it is right and good, both for Americans and for the world.
– Benjamin Shapiro, WorldNetDaily, Aug. 11, 2005

Now, of course, Benny is claiming that he doesn't want war, he just wants to "restore deterrance". But the Littlest Chickenhawk is lying. Again. He wants war and he wants LOTS of war. He just isn't willing to enlist and fight them himself.

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86 Comments:

Blogger Ingot9455 June 21, 2019 12:23 PM  

All we have to do is remind the President that John McCain wanted to, 'bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.'

Blogger JohnofAustria June 21, 2019 12:25 PM  

I mean I think the Saudis need to be destroyed, but likely for completely different reasons

Blogger Tars Tarkas June 21, 2019 12:28 PM  

Notice he does not similarly push for his people to go to war. Justice for little Benny requires a hangman's noose.

Blogger Stilicho June 21, 2019 12:34 PM  

Did the jews pose an immediate threat to our nation? Perhaps not. But exiling the jews and putting America first prevent their future ascendance and end their material support for other nations' interests to the detriment of America and the loss of American lives. The same principle holds true for AIPAC, the ADL the SLPC, the ACLU, all paper-Americans, and others: homogeneity and strong borders are the chief defenses of any nation. No one said liberty and self-determination were easy, but they are right and good, both for Americans and for the world.

FIFY

Blogger Balkan Yankee June 21, 2019 12:37 PM  

Hey Benjamin, you can take off the John Bolton skin suit.

We know it's you.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 21, 2019 12:41 PM  

What a joke, the empire is composed of protected class citizens who are the chiefs bossing about us non-protected class citizens the indians to go fight wars the DC insiders are bribed to fight.

Blogger Salt June 21, 2019 12:45 PM  

He's still of enlistment age.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 21, 2019 12:52 PM  

Past time for Benny to put his shekels where his mouth is, suit up and head downrange as a doorkicker.

Blogger Dan in Georgia June 21, 2019 12:53 PM  

Once we build enough refineries for all the oil we produce, importing oil is unnecessary. Then there’s no reason to bother with the ME. Let them eat each other. We don’t need their oil. Russia and China can fight over it.

Blogger Brett baker June 21, 2019 12:55 PM  

But what if the door kicks back?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 21, 2019 12:57 PM  

Call of the Chickenhawk

War for thee
Not for me

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 21, 2019 12:58 PM  

There was another way that folks would try to start wars back in the day.

John Brown
Cecil Rhodes

Time for all the neocons to form a "Freedom Corps" to liberate the poor Iranians who can't enjoy cheese pizzas and Captain Marvel.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 21, 2019 12:58 PM  

Even better.

Blogger Jay in DC June 21, 2019 1:02 PM  

Say what you want about Tucker Carlson but he is /ourguy/ at the end of the day and the most real talk n1gga on broadcast news. So much so, that I'm shocked he still has a show.

Listening to him on a conservative station like Fox is almost jarring because he speaks from the 'real right' perspective. He embarrassed a swamp critter last night. A career deep state shill one of Bolton's old 'advisors' and lackeys. The kind of guy who should be swinging from a lamp post in a more just world.

The Deep State shill was droning (pun intended) on about how we need to retaliate harshly for the drone takedown. Iran is building nukes, blah blah. The same old horseshit talking points they've been using for over a decade that are straight up LIES.

Tucker hit him with the real talk- "Sir, can you tell me which of the terror attacks around the world in the past few years Iran has conducted?" ---crickets---

"Well Tucker, they SUPPORT terror". Just the tired old samey garbage they spew out over & over. There is a whole city right outside my front door of useless cretins just like this. If every single one of them was strung up tomorrow nothing of value would be lost.

I'll say it again like yesterday, it is gross what a parody of the 'shining city on the hill' this out of control anarcho-tyranny we live in has become.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 21, 2019 1:03 PM  

Kristol also seething. They thought they had it. They thought they had him.

Blogger Balam June 21, 2019 1:05 PM  

Reeee a draft dodger clamoring for war REEEEEE

I could comment on
-Turn the other cheek
-Building up the US internally would do more for our global position than bombing outsiders
-Israeli lobby controlling the US congress
but no, midget would-be Napoleons don't require any dialectic.

Blogger OneWingedShark June 21, 2019 1:06 PM  

VD wrote:But the Littlest Chickenhawk is lying. Again. He wants war and he wants LOTS of war. He just isn't willing to enlist and fight them himself.
I just saw a meme from /pol/ covering this topic: Here.

Blogger Raker_T June 21, 2019 1:07 PM  

On a bizarre and somewhat related note, about an hour ago at Gab I saw a C & P of a tweet that looked to be calling for an attack on Iran for the sake of eliminating "Iran's Deep State". Either an insulting form of ra-ra, or parody. Looked serious though.

Blogger Steve Canyon June 21, 2019 1:10 PM  

We'd do far more damage to Iran and far more good to the US if we sent all the ones here back there.

Blogger Kordl June 21, 2019 1:10 PM  

Ben Shaqueero is at it again with the war drum, somethings never change.

Blogger Dan in Georgia June 21, 2019 1:12 PM  

Waiting for Shapiro to write a column making the case for making Israel the 51st state. With the capitol in Jerusalem of course.

Blogger Nostromo June 21, 2019 1:21 PM  

Oooh, I like that idea! Let's send 'em all back. Dress'em up in uni's, parachutes, and kick 'em out the door! "Oh, sorry. Remember how you wanted to take our guns? But don't you feel culturally enriched now? Bu-bye! And Mazel Tov!"

Blogger Mark Stoval June 21, 2019 1:22 PM  

I guess the USA has been at war most of its existence. I suppose it will be at war (hot or cold) until it falls apart.

I have never understood why so many people from the far left to the far right seem to always support wars or just killing people on the other side of the globe. The wife claims the main difference in liberals and conservatives is who they want to go to war with.

Why are we in the middle east? Who cares who kills who over there? Did we really need to kill people in Iraq?

I understand the concept of deterrence and all, but I also understand the concept of 4th gen warfare. We are losing. Losing big time.

Blogger Dan in Georgia June 21, 2019 1:25 PM  

We make more oil than we use yet we continue to import it from the ME. Why?

Blogger SouthRon June 21, 2019 1:27 PM  

The idea of Benji mashing anyone is laughable. Him calling for America to be his proxy is not.

I’m shocked he openly called the US an Empire. Most of his neocon friends would never be stupid enough to say it out loud in front of their democracy-loving supporters.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 21, 2019 1:35 PM  

Say what you want about Tucker Carlson but he is /ourguy/

That's good, because apparently other Fox News heads are asking things like whether Trump has the "stomach" to attack Iran. I guess if we don't bomb a new country every year or two, we're not a manly nation anymore.

Blogger pyrrhus June 21, 2019 1:39 PM  

It's long past time for every neocon who hasn't enlisted, every Israeli spy, every Israel lobbyist, and every politician or official who has supported these wars to be dangling from lampposts...though some lampposts might have to be used more than once...

Blogger Clay June 21, 2019 1:41 PM  

The trolls are in prime form today.

Blogger Stilicho June 21, 2019 1:47 PM  

With apologies to Richard Sharpe and the 95th rifles...


40 shekels on the drum
For those who'll volunteer to come
To 'list and fight the foe today
For Israel and far away.

O'er the hills and o'er the main
Through Kuwait and the Basra plain,
Secret kings command and we obey
For Israel and far away...

Blogger Mark Stoval June 21, 2019 1:50 PM  

Pundits Speculate that President Trump Called Off Iranian Strike After Watching Tucker Carlson on FOX News

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/hacks-and-pundits-speculate-that-president-trump-called-off-iranian-strike-after-watching-tucker-carlson-on-fox-news/

Blogger Jim the Curmudgeon June 21, 2019 2:09 PM  

The 5th column constituted by the neoconservatives has been spared any sort of criticism or accountability. It's shocking that idiots like Max Boot and Bill Kristol still have jobs after the disaster that was the Iraq war. I mean, a disaster for Americans, of course.

Speaking of empires lashing out and demonstrating their power, I don't think many empires would tolerate attacks on their warships. Iran attacks a drone, and it means war. Israel cripples an entire US warship, and... well, it was just an accident.

Blogger BastionHarm June 21, 2019 2:13 PM  

Iran attacks a drone, and it means war. Israel cripples an entire US warship, and... well, it was just an accident.

And Israel did more than just cripple a warship. Many American sailors died that day.

I got off Twitter and Facebook a while back, but I really hope that some fine folks out there are bombarding (((Shapiro))) and his ilk by pointing this out.

Blogger Nate73 June 21, 2019 2:20 PM  

Their goal was to sink The Liberty and kill all hands wasn't it?

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 21, 2019 2:27 PM  

Ben Shapiro is the boomer sycophant. There are two big things that boomers hate, mostly because they didn't have it when they were kids: video games and rap music.

And Shapiro wrote a book about how bad rap music is. I had the unfortunate honor of reading that book and it was garbage.

I am kind of shocked, though, that his fellow Jews didn't immediately exile him for his opposition to gangsta rap.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia June 21, 2019 2:27 PM  

The other story floating around is that Trump asked how many people would be killed in air strikes -- the targets being some missile launchers. The answer was around 150, and that was the proverbial straw the led to the order to call the thing off.

If it turns out our drone was in international waters, we should simply take $180 million of funds out of Iranian banks. If in their airspace, well, it's on us.

Blogger Tars Tarkas June 21, 2019 2:53 PM  

Dan in Georgia wrote:Once we build enough refineries for all the oil we produce, importing oil is unnecessary

I would not count on a lot of refinery capacity being built. It costs a fortune and the future of oil is uncertain. Given the proliferation of electric cars, we could see a 50% decrease of oil consumption in 20-30 years. If EVs do take off, it is going to reek havoc on the oil system.

We haven't had significant refinery capacity built since the 70s. Up until the very late 00s, US oil production had been on secular decline since about 1970. It was only in the last few years that we took out the 1970 high of 10.2Mb/d. It is unlikely that the boom in shale is going to last long enough to justify building new refineries. Not to mention most of it is extremely light. I know heavy oils can broken down into lighter oils, but I don't think light oils can be used to make heavier oils.

Blogger Dr Caveman June 21, 2019 2:58 PM  

I love the lamentations of all the blue-balled neocons. Trump backed out, just as they thought they had him

Blogger anorganicbear June 21, 2019 3:00 PM  

@19: You evil mastermind, brilliant!

Blogger Quilp June 21, 2019 3:02 PM  

@6 great summation.

Blogger Geir Balderson June 21, 2019 3:06 PM  

Iran will eventually fall under the weight of oppressive Islam. And yes, Saudi Arabia needs to go as well. They are no friends of the US. Self-serving goat herders. When the oil runs out, so will the power of Islam. What a lame political philosophy.

Americans desire no more wasted wars and treasure in the Middle Waste. Place our troops on the southern border. As for Benny....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inA2-iEs1-8

Blogger Stilicho June 21, 2019 3:24 PM  

Boomer love? Nah, Shapiro is a Boomer trapped in a (very small) Millenial body (with a small hat to boot).

Blogger OCG June 21, 2019 3:43 PM  

Neocon adventurism has killed considerably more Americans - the high quality heritage Americans, not the paper Americans - than Iran ever has.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 21, 2019 3:47 PM  

Whew, the Israel loyalists on all sides are really pissed. It seems like they just realized Trump wasn't only dragging his feet on Iran or trying to use it to negotiate other things, but is serious about not giving them their war. Less than 24 hours after he left them hanging, they've already gone back to the sexual harassment angle they pretty much dropped a year or so ago. That's not obvious or anything.

Blogger The Lab Manager June 21, 2019 3:54 PM  

(((Ben))) apparently has a show in the evenings that is carried by some AM stations. I heard one of his advertisements and find his nasal voice quiet annoying and irritating. But hey, no surprise he wants another ME war.

I stumbled upon an interview of the dope Hannity and Pat Buchanan about Iran. Pat had won the argument though I'm not sure if Pat has really apologized about Vietnam.

Blogger teslawasframed June 21, 2019 4:10 PM  

That's hilarious.


And now I've got the urge to re-watch the series...

Blogger xevious2030 June 21, 2019 4:14 PM  

@35 KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia

Not a story, a Trump Tweet.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/tweets

Blogger Garuna June 21, 2019 4:27 PM  

Make Israel Palestine Again

Blogger tublecane June 21, 2019 5:15 PM  

@30- Who knew all this time we just needed 42 minutes of cable t.v. airtime to control the president's brain?

Take that, Harvard education and decades of Beltway training!

Blogger Avalanche June 21, 2019 6:37 PM  

@19 "We'd do far more damage to Iran and far more good to the US if we sent all the ones here back there."


You meant THIS, right? FIFY:

We'd do far more damage to Iran and far more good to the US if we sent (((all the ones here))) back there.

Blogger Avalanche June 21, 2019 6:40 PM  

@27 "who has supported these wars to be dangling from lampposts...though some lampposts might have to be used more than once..."

Any reason it has to be only lampposts? There are those really nice TALL cell towers, with multiple 'arms,' each needing decoration?

Blogger MidnightSun June 21, 2019 7:03 PM  

Most government agencies, Hollywood, academia, courts, and politicians have been compromised and outwardly hate this country and the peoples who made it great. Why does Justice, Homeland Security and Intelligence allow millions of third world aliens to enter this country illegally without the blink of an eyelash. This could be halted tomorrow if they wanted! It is obvious that the recent coup attempt of Trump was concocted in the State Dept; while Justice and 4 foreign countries aided in the attack that is still going on to this day! And nobody has been called to answer! Along with the radical left we have become so infested with foreigners in government who truly are the enemy of America . Whether Black, Jew, Indian, Chinese, Latino, all have their country of origin and tribe at heart. All are enemies of the Christian right and care not for this great nation or the blood spilled keeping it 'free.' Try pulling this crap in their nations and see how far you get. The Land of The Free has become The Suicidal Nation.

Blogger Unknownsailor June 21, 2019 7:12 PM  

It should be noted that Little Benny can still enlist in the Army. He is not older than 35 (yet.) If he is so dead set in favor of war with Iran, let him sign on the line that is dotted, like I did 25 years ago.

We won't, of course, but he should be asked about this anyway, repeatedly.
-Unknownsailor-

Blogger Doktor Jeep June 21, 2019 7:17 PM  

Does Little Benny have these opinions on how own or is this scripted for him?

Or maybe it's just a tribal "line of thinking"?

Blogger JAG June 21, 2019 7:48 PM  

Dan in Georgia wrote:Waiting for Shapiro to write a column making the case for making Israel the 51st state. With the capitol in Jerusalem of course.

Benji doesn't want that. He wants to exploit America, and use her up to Israel's benefit. Remember, he doesn't give a damn about the browning of America, while at the same time he most certainly does give a damn about the browning of Israel.

Blogger DonReynolds June 21, 2019 7:51 PM  

I made this comment on Breitbart and it was immediately deleted. I thought it was humor....because only the truth is funny...but they did not have my sense of humor.

"NeoCons...Mr President, Iran has shot down one of our drones.

Trump...This is serious. Plan a retaliatory strike.

(Later)
NeoCons...We are ready, Mr President.

Trump...That was quick. Go ahead!

(Later)
Trump...What is the target?

NeoCons..We are going to blanket the country with airstrikes and kill hundreds.

Trump...Wait!"

Blogger JAG June 21, 2019 7:54 PM  

Unknown wrote:It should be noted that Little Benny can still enlist in the Army. He is not older than 35 (yet.) If he is so dead set in favor of war with Iran, let him sign on the line that is dotted, like I did 25 years ago.

We won't, of course, but he should be asked about this anyway, repeatedly.

-Unknownsailor-


The Army will let you in at 42 as long as you pass the physical. A buddy of mind did just that, and served in Afghanistan.

Blogger Hunsdon June 21, 2019 7:58 PM  

Personally, I was thinking of the windmills, kind of moving collage thing.

Blogger Unknownsailor June 21, 2019 8:04 PM  

@56

That was during OEF/OIF, the maximum enlistment age has gone back down to 35.
http://www.militaryspot.com/news/army-lowers-age-limit-for-enlisting
Age is waiverable, I think, but that is not that common.
-Unknownsailor-

Blogger dienw June 21, 2019 8:12 PM  

Dan in Georgia wrote:Waiting for Shapiro to write a column making the case for making Israel the 51st state. With the capitol in Jerusalem of course.
I assume you mean that once Israel becomes the 51st state, the new capitol for the United States would become Jerusalem; but isn't the US Capitol already Jerusalem?

Blogger Brett baker June 21, 2019 8:20 PM  

Because our refineries are set up for foreign oil, not the stuff we've been getting from fracking.

Blogger Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) June 21, 2019 8:29 PM  

I'm curious to know what connections the neocons have with the defense industry. Because it can't just be about Israel uber alles. That would imply a kind of principled position which I don't believe they're capable of. There's money to be made from war. Lots and lots of money.

Blogger nswhorse June 21, 2019 8:57 PM  

@Jim the Curmudgeon

The likes of Max Boot and Bill Kristol still have jobs because the neocon industry has tonnes of money and influence with which to keep their clown show echo chamber going. Correspondence with reality is incidental. They all believe Iraq and Afghanistan were a success, or at least say they do to keep the gravy train rolling.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel June 22, 2019 12:03 AM  

@7

Yeah, but below minimum height and weight.

Blogger Dirk Manly June 22, 2019 2:27 AM  

@36

"Given the proliferation of electric cars, we could see a 50% decrease of oil consumption in 20-30 years."

You're joking, right?

What do you think spins the turbines which spin the generators of all the above-baseline electrical poser plants?

1: It ain't Solar
2: It ain't water falling through a hydro-electric dam
3: It ain't coal -- those plants take an entire day to bring up or shut down.
3: It a fuel -- one of the same ones that the electric-car drivers complain about...and pride themselves on not needing in their plug-in, glorified golf-carts.

Blogger Dirk Manly June 22, 2019 2:30 AM  

@19

"We'd do far more damage to Iran and far more good to the US if we sent all the ones here back there."

But then, who would shoot up YouTube offices for demonitizing channels?

Blogger Steve Samson June 22, 2019 3:44 AM  

Shoot up your own YouTube offices, or you will lose your country. Every single time.

Blogger tublecane June 22, 2019 4:40 AM  

This "disproportionate" guff is part of one of the many fake doctrinal disputes the Benjis of the world cook up to argue amongst themselves. Leave us out of it, please. I'd much prefer to hear you threaten to "mash" people.

"if war occurs"

By which you mean if your clique gets its way. Which would be by doing things like "escalating" "disproportionately." Why even add the part about the U.S. not wanting war?

Blogger Gregory the Tall June 22, 2019 7:45 AM  

Beware of tiny men with small hats and squeaky voices.

Blogger binks webelf June 22, 2019 9:41 AM  

Shapiro is getting heat from Tucker & Paul Joseph Watson. No one deserves it more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPW5HGppsTU
Red Elephants-- Paul Joseph Watson CALLS OUT Ben Shapiro for His Warmongering, Tucker Piles On Too

Blogger jla June 22, 2019 9:42 AM  

The Lab Manager wrote:(((Ben))) apparently has a show in the evenings that is carried by some AM stations. I heard one of his advertisements and find his nasal voice quiet annoying and irritating. But hey, no surprise he wants another ME war.

I stumbled upon an interview of the dope Hannity and Pat Buchanan about Iran. Pat had won the argument though I'm not sure if Pat has really apologized about Vietnam.


Hannity use to have Buchanan on fairly regularly but Pat kept calling him out on his BS Russian aggression narrative. People like him and Andrew McCarthy are either deep state fake opposition or their Cold War mentality prevents them from rational thought regarding anything Russian. Hannity has been calling the dossier 'dirty Russian lies' ten times a day for nearly two years with no evidence whatsoever and all these rubes were quick to take the bait on 'Russian disinformation' the minute the swamp started suggesting they might have been fooled. Mission accomplished. Republicans can score points claiming the Democrats are the real colluders and then punish Russia for the crimes of the swamp.

Blogger Tars Tarkas June 22, 2019 10:49 AM  

Dirk Manly wrote:

"Given the proliferation of electric cars, we could see a 50% decrease of oil consumption in 20-30 years."

You're joking, right?

What do you think spins the turbines which spin the generators of all the above-baseline electrical poser plants?

1: It ain't Solar

2: It ain't water falling through a hydro-electric dam

3: It ain't coal -- those plants take an entire day to bring up or shut down.

3: It a fuel -- one of the same ones that the electric-car drivers complain about...and pride themselves on not needing in their plug-in, glorified golf-carts.


It ain't oil. In the US and Europe, virtually no oil is burned for electricity. Outside of the Middle East, it is pretty rare to burn oil for electricity. That could change if EVs can come down in price enough and diesel demand remains high. Though that seems unlikely to me. If the cost of EVs drops enough, it will likely lower the cost of electric trucks as well.

The US uses 385 million gallons of gasoline per day, about 3/4 to 4/5 of it is completely wasted in thermal inefficiency alone. Whether or not we can displace this is yet to be seen.

California regulators and the Pacific power company have decided to decommission CA's last nuclear power plant. They are going to try to replace that plant with solar and wind and battery backup. IIRC, the plant is scheduled to be taken offline for good in 2024 or 2025.

I have been skeptical about solar, wind and EVs along with the scale of the "problem" for quite a while. The yearly utilization rate of solar farms is 5%, which is abysmal (50kwh for every Mw installed), but so far, they have been doing well. Not every state is California. They are not going to be so stupid to decommission their baseload nuclear power plants.

Where I live, hardly anyone has a garage. The lack of garages in these old cities will likely put an upper limit on the number of EVs that make sense. But if the price of batteries comes down enough, EVs are just a much better option because 3/4 to 4/5 of your money isn't going out the tail pipe and there is no idling in stop and go traffic.

In the worst case scenario, we burn the oil in much more efficient electricity plants. I think they can achieve over 50% thermal efficiency.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 22, 2019 12:30 PM  

Tars, electric cars are proliferating because of subsidies, only. As I recall, of the energy you put into a battery to charge it, you get about 60% back out as useful work. The rest goes to heat, mostly. However efficient your power plant is, you aren't likely to make up for that 40% haircut.

There are two reasons EVs are impractical on a large scale: batteries suck, and inadequate power transmission/distribution. Our current grid is not capable of carrying the power needed to replace liquid fuels, even if we took the current loads off it.

Super capacitors might someday overcome the first, but batteries almost surely won't.

A few new, enormous copper mines and a trillion dollar construction program could overcome the second.

Dirk Manly wrote:What do you think spins the turbines which spin the generators of all the above-baseline electrical poser plants?

In the US, most baseline generation is coal, most peaking generation is natural gas. Gas is cheap, and it's everywhere.

There are better options for liquid fuel, and for electric power, than natural oils, Middle East or not.

Blogger Dox Day Teddy Spagetthhi June 22, 2019 12:36 PM  

70 Ben usurped Savage Nation air time.

NeoClownBen still owes a host of apologies to others including the host.

There will be no present wars, no more exchanging American blood for these war dollars over a damn drone.

NeoClowns to the Halloween party media unhappy with America's foreign policy should live elsewhere.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 22, 2019 12:55 PM  

Tars Tarkas wrote:But if the price of batteries comes down enough, EVs are just a much better option because 3/4 to 4/5 of your money isn't going out the tail pipe and there is no idling in stop and go traffic.

In the worst case scenario, we burn the oil in much more efficient electricity plants. I think they can achieve over 50% thermal efficiency.
1
And then be transmitted long distance (efficiency loss) to go though an inverter (efficiency loss) to charge a battery (efficiency loss), to drive a wheel (efficiency loss) to move a car (efficiency loss) against drag (efficiency loss).

Cars, of any type, lose about 65% of their energy in efficiency losses, whatever the power source. Hybrids make most of their gain in the fact that they're extremely light, and both hybrids and electric don't waste (as much) energy idling. When on the highway, hybrids are actually less efficient at moving load per pound than a conventional powertrain.



Electric cars are cheaper to drive because electricity is cheaper than gasoline. That's all.

And no, the price of batteries is not going to come down significantly, barring a revolutionary new battery tech.

Blogger Tars Tarkas June 22, 2019 3:56 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:And then be transmitted long distance (efficiency loss) to go though an inverter (efficiency loss) to charge a battery (efficiency loss), to drive a wheel (efficiency loss) to move a car (efficiency loss) against drag (efficiency loss).

Cars, of any type, lose about 65% of their energy in efficiency losses, whatever the power source. Hybrids make most of their gain in the fact that they're extremely light, and both hybrids and electric don't waste (as much) energy idling. When on the highway, hybrids are actually less efficient at moving load per pound than a conventional powertrain.

Electric cars are cheaper to drive because electricity is cheaper than gasoline. That's all.

And no, the price of batteries is not going to come down significantly, barring a revolutionary new battery tech.


I had the same concerns about the various electric losses you brought up, but in practice these do not add up to the losses of gasoline engines. Not even that close.

EVs don't have a complex drivetrain. Drivetrain losses are anywhere between 10 and 20% on standard vehicles. ICE vehicles are nowhere near 35% efficient. Thermal efficiency alone is worse than that. Then you have the belts and the drive train. Hydraulic pumps (power steering) and the alternator are pretty inefficient. Engines are rarely at the BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) maximum efficiency. If you go from Mj in gasoline to power out at the wheels, cars are extremely inefficient.

Battery prices are actually going up right now, at least the component chemicals are, but in the longer term, I don't see why they couldn't come down. They say the magic number is 100 bucks per kwh.

I don't think electric prices are going to stay low if EVs make a large dent in vehicle sales. The grid is going to have to expand massively and be able to handle hundreds of thousands of vehicles all being plugged in to charge at the same time in the same area.

Fast charging trucks is just a fantasy. Charging a 1Mw battery in 5 minutes requires a 12Mw charger (assuming a 100% efficient system). To keep the conductor to a reasonable size is going to require very high voltages (in the 10s or 100s of thousands). I certainly don't want to be the one handling it. Battery efficiency is very high when they have a low state of charge, but can be very inefficient when near their capacity. My guess is that Tesla is under-specing their battery capacity to keep life long (which would mean they are never fully charged and maintain high efficiency). You can double or more the life of a lithium ion battery by never going above 4v per cell. Most of the wear of a cell is at 4v to 4.2v.

Hybrids are too expensive and the battery alone range is as low as a couple of miles in the lowest end Prius. It is just too inefficient to have to include a full gasoline drive train and an EV drive train.

Blogger Tars Tarkas June 22, 2019 4:10 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Tars, electric cars are proliferating because of subsidies, only. As I recall, of the energy you put into a battery to charge it, you get about 60% back out as useful work. The rest goes to heat, mostly. However efficient your power plant is, you aren't likely to make up for that 40% haircut.

The subsidies are insane. The still rather expensive 35k Tesla is still not here and a realistic Tesla is way over 50k, more like 70k. Supposedly GM and Ford are working on low-cost EVs.

From everything I have read and even from my own experiments, lithium ion batteries are very efficient at charging and discharging. I have read that high quality cells are around 98-99% efficient. I assume most of the 1-2% is when the battery is almost completely charged. This can be avoiding by under-specing the battery.

Ominous Cowherd wrote:There are better options for liquid fuel, and for electric power, than natural oils, Middle East or not.

What would you say they are? I have heard ammonia and algae based oils, but both have major problems.

Blogger Dox Day Teddy Spagetthhi June 22, 2019 7:31 PM  

Batteries...If a person own the real estate who then sets the law? Meant as a rhetorical statement.

OT: Due to youtube drama(s) I strongly suggest hard modding.

Blogger Engineer-Poet June 22, 2019 9:36 PM  

@Dirk Manly:

""Given the proliferation of electric cars, we could see a 50% decrease of oil consumption in 20-30 years."

You're joking, right?

What do you think spins the turbines which spin the generators of all the above-baseline electrical poser plants?
"

If you head on over to the Energy Information Administration, you will find all the information you could want on this subject.  For instance, in 2018 oil provided only 242.5 trillion BTU out of the 23228 trillion BTU of fossil fuels consumed by the electric power sector.

Yes, it's a whole lot of natural gas these days but it's all N. American; none of it is OPEC.  Further, we could replace at least 2/3 of liquid motor fuel consumption with electricity in 10 years, not 20 or 30.

US petroleum consumption in the electric sector peaked in 1978 and then went down steeply after the 2nd OPEC oil price shock.  It was replaced by nuclear, and then some.  Right now the oilco's (which are now gasco's) want that business back.

Blogger Engineer-Poet June 22, 2019 9:37 PM  

@Tars Tarkas:  it's a whole lot easier than you think.

"Where I live, hardly anyone has a garage. The lack of garages in these old cities will likely put an upper limit on the number of EVs that make sense."

Free electric outlets were a fact of life in Canada decades ago, for block heaters.  Do you think that we, in this age of precision drilling and blockchain, can't wire up on-street parking in a few years and manage to get the billing right?

Blogger Dirk Manly June 22, 2019 11:57 PM  

@71

"In the worst case scenario, we burn the oil in much more efficient electricity plants. I think they can achieve over 50% thermal efficiency."

But after conversion losses are taken into account

chemical -> heat -> electricity -> chemical -> electricity -> mechanical, the thermal efficiency of most electric cars is far below the 30% efficiency of gasoline-engine automobiles.

EVERY time you do an energy conversion, there are losses (i.e. no energy conversion is 100% between forms).

Blogger Dirk Manly June 23, 2019 12:07 AM  

@74

"And no, the price of batteries is not going to come down significantly, barring a revolutionary new battery tech."

And to expound on this

Watt's original steam engine was 0.5% efficient. Today's internal combustion engines are about 30-35% efficient, although, theoretically, they could get to be about 65% efficient operating with air at typical ambient temperatures. Howeveer, I doubt we will ever see that.

That's a 60x improvement.

Battery technology has paled by comparison -- the original voltaic pile (invented by Volta), is just below 0.7 Volts/cell. A 60x improvement would be 42V/cell. Instead, we have only one cell type that goes beyond 3V/cell, just a bit over 4x improvement, and it's not suitable for high current applications like driving a vehicle down the highway, because the internal resistance is high, and the materials are ridiculously expensive. Internal resistance in a battery causes heat losses both while discharging AND while charging.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 24, 2019 9:16 AM  

Tars Tarkas wrote:

What would you say they are? I have heard ammonia and algae based oils, but both have major problems.


Fischer-Tropf coal-to-oil, powered by the thorium in the coal. Cheap electricity and cheap oil with technology from the '30s and '60s.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 24, 2019 9:17 AM  

Engineer-Poet wrote:Free electric outlets were a fact of life in Canada decades ago, for block heaters.

You are more poet than engineer.

Blogger Engineer-Poet June 24, 2019 1:43 PM  

@Dirk Manly:

"But after conversion losses are taken into account

chemical -> heat -> electricity -> chemical -> electricity -> mechanical, the thermal efficiency of most electric cars is far below the 30% efficiency of gasoline-engine automobiles.
"

That depends where you start from.  The best CCGT plants hit 62% LHV efficiency (about 56% HHV).  Transmission losses average about 7%.  The vehicle itself is 75% to 85% efficient.  This gives a net efficiency of 39-44%.

But the real advantages are (1) the "long tailpipe" and the far greater ease of pollution control on a few large plants vs. 250 million mobile sources, and (2) the ability to operate on things that vehicles can't use as fuel.  Even natural gas is troublesome due to its low flame speed (forget coal, you have to liquefy it), and you can't run a combustion engine on solar, hydro, wind or nuclear at all.  Neither can you cogenerate with a vehicle-borne engine.

"Watt's original steam engine was 0.5% efficient."

You're thinking of the original Newcomen engine; Watt's was considerably better.  Historical refresher here.

"Battery technology has paled by comparison -- the original voltaic pile (invented by Volta), is just below 0.7 Volts/cell. A 60x improvement would be 42V/cell."

There's no chemical reaction that can give 42 eV of energy to a single electron.  Put another way, Volta started much closer to 100% energy efficiency than Newcomen did.

Blogger Engineer-Poet June 24, 2019 1:45 PM  

@Ominous Cowherd:

"Fischer-Tropf coal-to-oil, powered by the thorium in the coal. Cheap electricity and cheap oil with technology from the '30s and '60s"

We can power the entire USA literally for centuries using uranium we've already mined.  No point whatsoever in mining coal, though thorium is a byproduct of rare-earth refining and it makes a lot of sense to use it.  We'd have to mine or buy some more uranium to get the startup fissiles to do a timely switchover, but once a fast-spectrum system is running it needs no more U-235.

"You are more poet than engineer."

Do you think so, pal?
I invite you to check out
My recent reading.

http://ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/low-dose-Cobalt-taiw-06.pdf
https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-power-plant/nuclear-fuel/spent-fuel/composition-of-spent-nuclear-fuel/

The first will shock you
Want to know how deep the lies?
You'll be blown away.

Blogger bdoran June 27, 2019 1:06 PM  

Step back from Empire before actual Empire steps up Benny.

No you’re not.
I’m on deployment 5.
No Benny, no you’re not.
None of them are- and we don’t need it.

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