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Monday, December 30, 2019

A tactical analysis


Watch this tactical analysis of the recent church shooting in Texas. Very insightful, very informative. And one hell of a shot from the old guy!

The key is to a) be armed, b) be aware, and c) do not hesitate to act when necessary. Both the usher and the first responder were suspicious, and both had the opportunity to put themselves at a tactical advantage by moving closer in the first instance and surreptitiously drawing in the second, but unfortunately, neither of them acted on their initial suspicions. It's completely understandable, of course, but even so, their failure to act on their suspicions cost them dearly.

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142 Comments:

Blogger RobertDWood December 30, 2019 1:02 PM  

This was less then a mile from where we do church as a family, the response time by the local White Settlement police was incredible (less then 4 minutes).

For those on church safety teams, be advised the first police to respond were 3 of the officers we have as security onsite at our campus. If there are multiple attack sites in a coordinated effort, the first site will pull off relevant officers and turn a hardened target into a soft one immediately.

Blogger peacefulposter December 30, 2019 1:03 PM  

The old dude in the blue sweater has seen some sh-t.

Blogger Hammerli 280 December 30, 2019 1:04 PM  

This is why the precision shooting disciplines are important. Once you're comfortable making the equivalent of a head shot at 25 yards or meters with one hand, doing it at 15 or 20 is pathetically easy.

Too damned many "instructors" are telling people that they don't need to even think about a gunfight beyond 10 yards. Bunk! The higher the training standards, the easier the actual fight.

Blogger Calvin809 December 30, 2019 1:19 PM  

The guy who dropped the shooter was former FBI according to one local news site. Training was definitely part of the equation.

Blogger Rough Carrigan December 30, 2019 1:28 PM  

That was a hell of a shot.
Damn.
Under extreme pressure, the bad guy moving and he pulls off a head shot from 40 feet. Good work.

Blogger ar10308 December 30, 2019 1:31 PM  

The video of this incident is a tactical textbook on what to do and what not to do. Those 10-seconds of video confirm and will provide years of tactical training and philosophy.

God rest the souls of the men who died as a result of their hesitation, inadvertently buying time for the man who acted and God bless the man who trained, acted and saved many lives that day.

Blogger Joe Smith December 30, 2019 1:40 PM  

It’s obviously true that training precision shooting a lot makes it easier, so I agree with that, but that guy did it after shots had already been fired. It’s an impressive shot under pressure. It took a while before I was comfortable enough with the adrenaline to be that accurate after shots were fired. All assuming it was an intentional head shot anyway.

Blogger Lazarus December 30, 2019 1:41 PM  

not available on youtube. Don't want anybody getting funny ideas.

Anonymous Anonymous December 30, 2019 1:42 PM  

Texas is a really bad place to pull this kind of crap. As I recall, the "terrorist" that attacked in Garland got maybe one "aloha snakbar" out before getting capped.

Sadly, the Dallas Diocese has declared their Churches gun free, posting 'thou shalt not carry' signs in the entrances. That said, I know more than a few concealed carry guys that ignore it.

Situational awareness is key. In our parish, you see the same people every Sunday. So a stranger sort of sticks out. And, I think I'm the only one that has a trench coat. They are almost never worn, since it's not nearly cold and rainy enough here.

Blogger S. Thermite December 30, 2019 1:52 PM  

The guy who dropped the shooter was former FBI according to one local news site. Training was definitely part of the equation.

As a current DSS agent told me, “Shooting is a perishable skill.” I’m reading that the hero is 71-year-old firearms instructor with his own shooting range. If he was merely a retired FBI agent resting on his laurels then I seriously doubt he would’ve been able to pull-off that first-round headshot at that distance.

Of course God’s hand is steadier than any human’s, so that may factor into the equation too.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 30, 2019 2:00 PM  

weird.

when i try to view this directly on Youtube, i get an error message declaring this video as "unavailable". however it still plays in the window so Youtube is still hosting it and serving the data.

the point about muzzle discipline CANNOT be overstated.

how damn stupid would it be for one of the parishioners to have been hit by an accidental discharge AFTER the shooter was down? you've got a half dozen mall cops running around muzzling the whole crowd.

and it's not just "quick draw" that's important. the first victim made himself the primary target by standing up and drawing in full view of the shooter. the shooter was actually threatening the usher and only the usher until that point.

it's very possible that the defenders could have had another 15-30 seconds prep time had stand up guy not set off the perp.

an ankle holster or cross draw under arm or hip holster would have been a lot less obvious and he could have gotten his gun out WHILE SEATED. that might have been a successful surreptitious draw and maybe he could have shot first.

it may well be necessary to make yourself a target in order to distract from other victims ( children, for instance ), but it's typically not a good idea in a firefight.

Blogger DJ | AMDG December 30, 2019 2:09 PM  

I think the failure to act on their suspicions can be explained by the following quote.

“We have to remember that he’s a creature of God also just like we are. And it is a sad thing that he had to come into the congregation to hurt people and it’s a sad thing that we had to hurt him. But I don’t have any hate for this person. We can’t have hate for these people. We can’t have hate for anybody that does hate for us. We have to go on. We have to live that life of Christ,” said John Richardson, a church member.”

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 30, 2019 2:14 PM  

Acting on suspicions is being judgemental! Hurf blurf! Who are you and who gave you the right to judge people? Hurf blurf!

See what damage the left has done with their century long campaign against judging people? Two men are dead, that we see here. But a mere microcosm of a civilization that got too intimidated to stop judging people.
I used to shut people down on that "who are you to judge" crap when I tell them I know exactly who I am and yes I will judge.

Meanwhile my fellow instructors are dissecting the video. Still no word on the suspect. His leftist/Satanist ties are probably getting scrubbed from the internet right now. Word is out that his name is Brainison DeWall.

Blogger Jay Will December 30, 2019 2:15 PM  

Composure under extreme pressure.

Blogger NP_see December 30, 2019 2:19 PM  

Hesitation nearly cost me life during a home invasion. I will never make that mistake again. I will not hesitate to strike first.

Blogger Unknownsailor December 30, 2019 2:30 PM  

That video has made the rounds of the gun sites I visit, and it has spurred me into modifying my dry fire practice routine. If you cannot clear cover garments and get your carry piece out and on target in 1.5 seconds, you need to work on that until you can. The man who took the first shot clearly had not, and it cost him his life.

The man who took out the perp is a retired sheriff deputy, I believe, not retired FBI, but I have seen both reported.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 30, 2019 2:30 PM  

Oh and in before: "He walked into the wrong church"

Blogger Noah B. December 30, 2019 2:31 PM  

This one hits close to home for me too. White Settlement is still a good working class area but the part of Fort Worth just south of it has turned into a crime infested hellhole in recent years, with the downward spiral rapidly accelerating after Hurricane Katrina evacuees were relocated there.

Blogger David Ray Milton December 30, 2019 2:31 PM  

I saw this earlier. Awesome how they all come out of the pews armed!

This was a Church of Christ, which is what I was raised in. They don’t claim me anymore, but I’m still proud of them, especially in moments like this. A tragedy regardless, but thank God it was prevented by godly people from becoming worse.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 2:33 PM  

its very useful to contrast this incident with footage of cops involved in shootings.

Note that this man did not panic. he didn't spaz out. he didn't spray bullets everywhere. He didn't fire 5 or 10 times.

He calmly drew, aimed, and fired. 1 time. He was in complete control the whole time. In fact he looked bored.

Blogger Al K. Annossow December 30, 2019 2:36 PM  

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

So is the ambulance. A bad thigh cut while cutting cardboard with a box cutter can cause enough blood loss in 2-3 minutes that the person will never wake up. Consider carrying a 'blowout kit.'

Here's an amateur's implementation to start you thinking:
tourniquet for arms and legs, gauze for packing into shoulder and hip wounds, plastic and tape to seal sucking chest wounds, powdered aspirin for heart attacks and strokes, benedryl for allergic reactions, NPA tube for bypassing obstructed airways, device to break car windows and cut seatbelts. Learn to use these: Skinny Medic on YouTube or take a Stop The Bleed course. (And if it isn't obvious, don't perform CPR on someone who is bleeding to death, internally or externally!) Neither the cops or ambulance can save everyone. Maybe YOU will be the first responder.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 2:39 PM  

Doktor Jeep wrote:Word is out that his name is Brainison DeWall.
Cute.

Blogger Oswald December 30, 2019 2:41 PM  

Thanks for the video! A real eye opener.

I went to church yesterday. Made the conscious decision to leave the hardware home, because the handle was just barely visible from its pocket holster to the trained eye. Glad it was not at my church. I am also reminded I sit in a bad location, because the main entrance is directly to the back of me, and I would likely go down early in the action, if someone just came in blasting away. People not into guns or military history don't ever want to talk about basic life and death scenarios like this. In fact, they look at you weird like you are a problem and you may be planning an attack yourself. So, society trains us to be sheep and to never think like the wolf.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 2:50 PM  

as a friend noted... the first guy that got shot was carrying small of the back... and he took forever to draw and he drew as slowly and obviously as he possibly could.

Do not carry in the small of your back. ever. period.

Blogger DJ | AMDG December 30, 2019 2:52 PM  

Every cop I know only 6 so obviously short of all cops) carries in the back when off duty in street clothes. Why is that?

Blogger VD December 30, 2019 2:54 PM  

Word is out that his name is Brainison DeWall.

Totally not a fake name....

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 30, 2019 2:56 PM  

If the time comes I want to be as calm as Super Boomerman. If the shot was 15 yards I can make a head shot two hand, one hand strong or support, from a draw in that time frame but Oh Lord under that kind of pressure the jury is out.

That aside I checked out the twittercons and those gents highlighted some of the worst passive-aggressive lefties they could find, and that was quite illustrating. So are you sure you really want dialectic with the Left? The passive-aggressive act lures you in and then they chew you up piece by piece.

Blogger SammyBoy December 30, 2019 3:00 PM  

@11, there's another lesson to learn from the now-deceased first-to-respond -- Tuck in yer dang shirt. Neatness counts when you're trying to pull a firearm from a holster at the back of your pants! (This is not a snipe at him, but a warning to the people ready for the next incident.) This man lost at least 2 of his 3.5 seconds to trying to clear the tail of his shirt. It helped get him killed.

Blogger Patrick Kelly December 30, 2019 3:00 PM  

The Active Self Protection channel has been in my daily viewing for a while now. Lots of lessons learned there, good, bad, ugly, and they emphasize over and over training for a 1.5 draw to first shot on target.

Blogger DJ | AMDG December 30, 2019 3:03 PM  

We have those men at our parish too. I suspect declaring gun free zones is more about reducing liability insurance premiums than SJW stuff. Little community churches have very little assets, generally speaking, and in comparison to any Catholic diocese or archdiocese. I went to a large church that for 25 years didn’t even own it’s own building.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 3:04 PM  

"Every cop I know only 6 so obviously short of all cops) carries in the back when off duty in street clothes. Why is that?"

becasue they are idiots that don't bother to keep current on tactics and training.

There are tons of problems created by carrying in the small of the back... the worst of them is the fact that it is incredibly slow to draw and as we see... seconds matter. tenths of seconds matter.

The vast majority of people who carry SOB do so because they think it is super well concealed and they mistakenly think that being super concealed is the most important thing.

It isn't the most important thing. It isn't even in the top 3.

Also... guess what happens if you fall on your back while that pistol is holster there? Lucky you! You just won... A broken back and a lifetime of paralysis!

Blogger Happy Housewife December 30, 2019 3:05 PM  

That girl crying for her daddy is heartbreaking.

Blogger Patrick Kelly December 30, 2019 3:11 PM  

"...Why is that?"

Most cops are not even close to being experts about any aspect of gun fighting, especially concealed carry and deployment.

Blogger Noah B. December 30, 2019 3:11 PM  

"Every cop I know only 6 so obviously short of all cops) carries in the back when off duty in street clothes. Why is that?"

I have no idea what they might be thinking. Carrying that way your weapon is practically inaccessible when you're seated and it's uncomfortable too. Even when standing, drawing is awkward and obvious.

If you're going to be wearing a sport coat anyway, a shoulder holster is one of the best options. And Galco Gunleather is a great place to start looking for one.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 3:15 PM  

with the political turmoil in my church... and the fact that it is ramping up in the next 3 months considerably... I will simply be shocked if we don't see an incident like this at a United Methodist Church. Can't say where.. but I would expect an urban one. Gotta be ready every second.

We are lucky enough to have several guys with a lot of drill time and training... and one honest to God US Marshall. I don't worry so much about my own specific church... but I expect it to happen in the denomination sometime after January when the Purge kicks into high gear.

Blogger DJ | AMDG December 30, 2019 3:15 PM  

I get you. But these guys aren’t idiots either. I’ll have to ask but I bet it’s a combination of the concealment you mention and something else. Maybe being situationally aware but at the same time NOT wanting to get involved. Apart from their own families, I don’t think my cop friends would quick draw their way into a gun fight for any reason. They wouldn’t shy from it either. The fact is they are required to carry while off duty, and at the same time EVERY FREAKING CHOICE they make is analyzed with a microscope because big city Feds are constantly looking for ways to put cops away. Idk. I’m going to ask them.

Heck. I was just at a Christmas party with one and he was asked to demonstrate something. This guy is one tough hombre. Built like a brick house. He took off his suit coat and sure enough his piece was in a back belt holster for everyone to see. People remembered quickly why it was there, but some took a few seconds.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 30, 2019 3:16 PM  

I must confess that it took me 5 minutes before I got it.

Blogger Noah B. December 30, 2019 3:16 PM  

"The vast majority of people who carry SOB do so because they think it is super well concealed and they mistakenly think that being super concealed is the most important thing."

And even if concealment were important -- people just do not notice. Cops don't notice. Having tried every imaginable carry method, the only one that ever resulted in people noticing was a fanny pack.

Blogger Ska_Boss December 30, 2019 3:21 PM  

An armed society is a polite society.

-Uncle Ted Nugent

Blogger Banjo December 30, 2019 3:22 PM  

Hard to watch, but necessary I think. Goes to show it’s not enough to be willing and able to put yourself in harms way for others, and for that God bless the two deceased gentlemen, but you have to be ready. “Ready” includes the necessary training and practice not just situational awareness.

Thanks for sharing this one Vox.

Banjo

Blogger The Course of Empire December 30, 2019 3:24 PM  

He's an ex-FBI agent.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 30, 2019 3:24 PM  

A note about shooting skills. I'm an instructor and match director. I even wrote a book once on how to build courses of fire for various disciplines. Never bothered to publish it. You have to be insane to be a author.
Anyway, the one thing I recommend is to at least partake in at least one shooting competition a month. IDPA preferably. USPSA is good practice. Multi-gun let's you use rifles and shotguns too.
But one competition a month will make you shoot better than 95 percent of everybody else on Earth. And that even includes most police and military.
I have done long courses of mostly draw and reload training and then when setting up a blindingly simple "two target and a barrier" course of fire most of the students go straight into brain freeze. The cops train for brain freeze and turn into killbots hence their lousy hit factor.
Doing courses of fire wherby you shoot and use your head at the same time actually gives you the ability to slow time down. I bet at least 20 things went through the defender's mind effortlessly given his training, in that 5 second engagement.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 3:28 PM  

"Having tried every imaginable carry method, the only one that ever resulted in people noticing was a fanny pack."

you carried in a fanny pack?


Fag.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 30, 2019 3:48 PM  

While Helpful Nate is calling out the fags and dreaming of steel framed .45s as JMB meant them to be let me rec carry gear packs from Hill People Gear. I use mine to carry my ultra faggy polymer framed S&W M&P 9mm with 15 rounds of love plus a spare mag, wallet, phone, car keys for my running, mountain biking and hiking.

Blogger David Ray Milton December 30, 2019 3:51 PM  

Concealment matters zero. We’re open carry in Arizona. I’ve heard people criticize this as painting a target on one’s own back, but the empirical evidence for this so far is that would be mass shooters see what they’re up against and then don’t bother.

Blogger Solemn Sentinel December 30, 2019 3:52 PM  

Fairly certain we go to the same campus, good to know but not necessarily surprising there's like minded people there.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 30, 2019 3:55 PM  

I carry a full size XD in a leather/kydex IWB. And without any jackets or vests.
The important thing is not to be fat.
Carry in a fagbag would have worked....in the mid 1990s.

Blogger KPP December 30, 2019 4:02 PM  

I love my church. More guns in a congregation of less than 100 than anyone would expect. Also a security plan that we take seriously, as the pastor says lots of "unpopular" things through the radio ministry. The video is a good one - the commentary on having a quality first aid kit is excellent and I'll be looking into what we have in that regard, as I honestly don't know at this point.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 30, 2019 4:03 PM  

28. SammyBoy December 30, 2019 3:00 PM
It helped get him killed.


eh, possibly.

i think he was dead regardless when he decided to stand up and start grabbing at his waist while in full view of the perp. whether he pulled out a cell phone or a gun, he was already going to get a chest full of shot because he was presenting as a threat.

he'd have personally been better off sprawling out towards screen left and ducking as the perp might have mistaken that for defensive crouch or an attempt to run away. even if you drew perp's attention away from the usher, he's not immediately keying on you as a threat.


you notice that the hero had no issue drawing, partly because he was further off in perp's peripheral but mostly because he was already standing in a group of men who were also already standing.

it's called "cover".

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 30, 2019 4:08 PM  

I am once won a concealed carry purse in a raffle.
After some consideration, I had to accept that it could in no way be taken for a European concealed carryall and gave the thing to one of the ladies.

Blogger tuberman December 30, 2019 4:18 PM  

Yeah, that guy intended to start a massacre right off. Good response for people not use to threats every day. This video will reach many churches at least in the South.

Blogger Al K. Annossow December 30, 2019 4:41 PM  

KPP wrote:the commentary on having a quality first aid kit is excellent and I'll be looking into what we have
Maybe keep the standard workplace first aid kit for treating boo boos in the office and keep the smaller trauma-level, keep-them-alive-until-the-ambulance-arrives kit under the podium. Or on someone's ankle. Running to the office and back and then also pawing thru the Sesame Street Bandaids to find the tourniquet or packing gauze is rather time consuming.

Blogger The Masked Menace December 30, 2019 4:59 PM  

It looked like a head shot at 25 yards. He seemed calm and cool. That was impressive.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 5:02 PM  

"eh, possibly."

no. Not possibly. He should have draw before he stood up. Neither of the first two defenders had the right mind set. Neither were addressing this as a threat that had to be put down right now. Look at how slow they both move. The bad guy's attention was fully on the guy closest to him. The dude on the bench should've drawn and fired immediately.

If he had.. there is a chance he and his friend would be alive right now.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 5:06 PM  

"While Helpful Nate is calling out the fags and dreaming of steel framed .45s as JMB meant them to be let me rec carry gear packs from Hill People Gear."

and there is no way in hell you can draw from it and get an aimed shot of in 2 seconds.

None.

Carry your purse all you want. but don't pretend its anything but a hinderance to your ability to fight effectively.

As for you boomer 45 bullshit... I carry what I've carried for the last 20 years... I carry a steyr m40 on my hip under purpose built CCW shirts that have snaps and velcro to make damn sure they do not slow my draw.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 5:08 PM  

"I am once won a concealed carry purse in a raffle."

I got an inertia driven 20 gauge for my son for Christmas... while I was waiting for the paperwork to go through I had to listen to the damn gunstore counter monkey tell a woman all about how she could carry in her purse and shoot through the purse without ever pulling the gun out.

Gun store idiots get people killed and/or maimed.

Blogger JDC December 30, 2019 5:14 PM  

Unless your church has a security plan and team, trained and alert at every service your only plan is to, if God forbid this should happen, hope he the shooter runs out of bullets.

We are lucky to have both the chief of police and two retired staties in our congregation. Three years ago I approached them about setting up a security team. Three of us went a daylong conference put on my the MSP (MI state police), and since then have a team of three (we call them safety team officers) armed, polite and most importantly, alert at every service.

Listening to those who know far more about this than I, what really sold me on the idea for a security team is the fact that 99% of people, especially during worship are in what law enforcement calls condition white. They are not paying attention to their surroundings and physiologically not prepared should a shooting incident occur. In condition white, it takes the brain anywhere from 30s to two minutes to really process what is happening. Far to much time to take action should something occur.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 5:14 PM  

Nate wrote:becasue they are idiots that don't bother to keep current on tactics and training.
Our local small-town cop won the shooting competition put on the police chiefs' association every year. His secret? He realized that misses aren't counted, and hitting a bystander only counted as -0.5. So he would just mag dump on everything. He'd get 1 hit out of 15, but it was a hit, and it counted as a good shot and not pure luck. Most officers used 25-30 rounds for the competition, he'd use 150.
This is the mentality you're dealing with.

Blogger Noah B. December 30, 2019 5:14 PM  

Apparently the perp was wearing a wig and fake beard in addition to the long coat and hood. He looked suspicious enough that he had already drawn the security team's attention long before the perp pulled the shotgun. It is essential to pay attention to warning signs like this and act quickly.

Given the glaring threat indicators it would have been appropriate for parishioners to draw weapons, keep them at low ready, and approach the perp while telling him to leave. Not to say that I would have done that had I been there at the time, but in light of this experience that's what I would do if faced with a similar situation in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcdwY5aTy7Q

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 5:17 PM  

Noah B. wrote:Apparently the perp was wearing a wig and fake beard in addition to the long coat and hood.
Wind-up toy.

Blogger Akulkis December 30, 2019 5:29 PM  

"It's called cover"

That's not cover, that's concealment.

Concealment -- anything which obscures your opponent's view of you.

Cover -- anything that will STOP a bullet before it can hit you.

Inside that room, there's LOTS of concealment, but there is absolutely NOTHING in that entire room which provides cover from any other place inside that room. A bullet can, and usually will go through everything in that room, including a person.

Even the much maligned .223 aka 5.56mm round will go COMPLETELY through concrete construction block.

The only way any person in that room would be cover is if the shooter was armed with a pistol shooting .22 LR rimfire, but that's a target pistol, and only an absolute, complete idiot (even dumber than the assailant here) would CHOOSE to use such a pistol for a potential gunfight.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 5:33 PM  

"Given the glaring threat indicators it would have been appropriate for parishioners to draw weapons, keep them at low ready, and approach the perp while telling him to leave."

yep. there were way to many red flags. there were way to may chances to end this before it got started.

Blogger RobertDWood December 30, 2019 5:39 PM  

What better way for others to note your package then padding the fanny pack?

Blogger Hammerli 280 December 30, 2019 5:41 PM  

The big issue with ANY belt-worn holster is that you just can't get to it while seated. Crossdraw is probably the best of the lot, especially if you're svelte. Small of the back? I would never consider it, it's a worst-of-all-worlds solution. This is where a shoulder holster really shines. Yes, I know that the IPSC/IDPA crowd bans them...but on the street, three-quarters of the gun game stuff is every bit as impractical as my Morini CM-84 free pistol.

What is really needed, though, is a strong-side shoulder rig. Essentially a strong-side belt holster, but on a shoulder harness that raises it up about six inches. A weak-side shoulder holster doesn't work well for large guys, this would fix the problem.

Blogger Pax_Romana December 30, 2019 5:46 PM  

Thanks for posting this. I sent it along to one of my pastors - the only one with an excess of testosterone. I'm praying we've got a security plan, but if not, this video might sway him.

Blogger Al K. Annossow December 30, 2019 5:47 PM  

A hood, wig, and beard. He thought he could get away. Might indicate he mostly wanted to target the pastor and anyone else was just collateral damage. I'll wildly guess that the shooter was refused a place of honor or financial help. Since the shooter was once confronted outside a refinery in New Jersey, only maybe a social issue was involved.

Blogger English Tom December 30, 2019 5:49 PM  

@Doktor Jeep

After getting that head shot, his brain really is on the wall!

Blogger English Tom December 30, 2019 5:51 PM  

@Patrick Kelly

I too highly recommend the Active Self Protection YouTube channel. He deals with all kinds of mayhem from all over the world, and gives lessons on the situations.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 5:53 PM  

Akulkis wrote:The only way any person in that room would be cover is if the shooter was armed with a pistol shooting .22 LR rimfire, but that's a target pistol, and only an absolute, complete idiot (even dumber than the assailant here) would CHOOSE to use such a pistol for a potential gunfight.
Shotgun, you clown.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 30, 2019 5:54 PM  

"an armed society is a polite society" should be attributed to Robert Heinlein not Ted Nugent.

Blogger Kiwi December 30, 2019 5:55 PM  

When the silent generation get loud.

Good example why you should always respect your elders.

Blogger The Cooler December 30, 2019 6:05 PM  

.223 aka 5.56mm

Wut

.223 meets SAAMI standards. SAAMI measures pressure at the center of the casing. The hotter 5.56 complies with NATO standards; pressure is measured at the leade of the chamber.

AKA Two different rounds.

Blogger teslawasframed December 30, 2019 6:14 PM  

I think people find it more comfortable while sitting, compared to appendix carry.

When I'm not in uniform, I only carry concealed in the appendix position. Draws are faster, easier to conceal there, and easier to maintain control of your weapon during a physical struggle.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 30, 2019 6:15 PM  

The big issue with ANY belt-worn holster is that you just can't get to it while seated. Crossdraw is probably the best of the lot, especially if you're svelte. Small of the back? I would never consider it, it's a worst-of-all-worlds solution. This is where a shoulder holster really shines. Yes, I know that the IPSC/IDPA crowd bans them...but on the street, three-quarters of the gun game stuff is every bit as impractical as my Morini CM-84 free pistol.

"What is really needed, though, is a strong-side shoulder rig. Essentially a strong-side belt holster, but on a shoulder harness that raises it up about six inches. A weak-side shoulder holster doesn't work well for large guys, this would fix the problem."

What the heck are you talking about? A raised strong side shoulder holster is impossible to draw from with your dominant hand. A right hander carries on the left shoulder. You will muzzle people around you but it can be drawn sitting down. Of course a strong side belt holster at about 3:00 can also be drawn sitting down.

Assuming I'm wearing a coat I'd prefer the shoulder holster if I was seated.

Blogger teslawasframed December 30, 2019 6:16 PM  

Second the Galco recommendation...great quality for the money.

Blogger HouellebecqGurl December 30, 2019 6:16 PM  

There are EXCELLENT bandages for gushing blood available on Amazon & they're not that expensive. I think you could put a very nice kit together from there.

Blogger teslawasframed December 30, 2019 6:19 PM  

Hill People Gear is the sh*t!

Blogger LAZ December 30, 2019 6:19 PM  

Local news is reporting Keith Thomas Kinnunen, 43 from River Oaks. Which borders White Settlement. Transient meth head.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 30, 2019 6:21 PM  

54. Nate December 30, 2019 5:02 PM
no. Not possibly.


calm down, that's what i said in the next paragraphs.

with a quicker draw he *might* have gotten a round off and not been totally useless but my opinion was that he's getting a chest full of buckshot no matter what else he does or doesn't accomplish.

ie - he effectively committed suicide


54. Nate December 30, 2019 5:02 PM
Look at how slow they both move.


*shrugs*

the usher is doing the normal response, ie - flinching away from the gun. you notice that as the shotgun is pulled the usher backs fully up against the wall and raises his hands. many shooting victims have wounds to their hands and forearms, this is why. they're raising their hands in a futile defensive posture.

maybe you can train yourself out of this, but you don't ever really know how you're going to respond until someone has drawn a gun on you in anger.

the usher didn't pass the test. not all do.




61. Akulkis December 30, 2019 5:29 PM
That's not cover, that's concealment.



thanks for the correction.


67. Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 5:53 PM
Shotgun, you clown.



he's not saying the perp was armed with a pistol, he's saying there's NO COVER unless the perp was attacking with a .22LR ... which he clearly was not.

which i actually somewhat disagree with. assuming shot, a lot of those wooden pews, especially on the far side of the sanctuary, might actually be useful cover.

or you might get splinters. *shrugs*

of course, slug is going to go through pretty much all of that.

Blogger HouellebecqGurl December 30, 2019 6:24 PM  

Luckily, being a woman I can get to my gun extremely fast, which is all well and good, and I am regularly fairly accurate and don't fall to pieces, that said, if Im being honest, I would've likely unloaded a whole clip due to the adrenaline rush. It's something I desperately need to work on, and this was a great reminder as to why.
The old white haired guy with the baby blue vest who barely moves a muscle thru the whole thing kinda freaked me out.
His wife immediately ducks and he just sits there calm as a cucumber. Dang.

Blogger Kiwi December 30, 2019 6:27 PM  

"In fact he looked bored."

Yeah he kinda did. I notice that people who get shit done do look like that, only the parts of their body they need to move are moving, and even those are in a very braced fashion against a strong skeletal stance. He's the only one in the room who moved like that, the regular people moved muscles in a jelly mess, but he moved in like a cat on a mouse.

Blogger Nate December 30, 2019 6:32 PM  

"The big issue with ANY belt-worn holster is that you just can't get to it while seated."

that is literally what the forward cant is for. you absolutely can draw from a seated position.

Blogger teslawasframed December 30, 2019 6:37 PM  

An FYI for those building a church security plan...one of our local churches was able to buy torniquets and chest seals in bulk at an obnoxious discount...legit CAT TQ's, 100 for $280-ish. Have your church staff email companies and see what kinds of discounts you can get.

Blogger Noah B. December 30, 2019 6:38 PM  

Ran across the Archon Type B pistol yesterday - I didn't get the opportunity to fire it but I like what I see so far. It has a non-Browning locking mechanism, so the barrel doesn't rotate upward as it feeds new rounds, and the slide movement still feels smooth as glass. Factory trigger is nice. If it had come with a threaded barrel I would have bought it. Hopefully they will be adding other calibers soon too.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/archon-firearms-type-b-9mm-pistol-video-review/
https://archonfirearms.us/type-b/

Blogger Shield up sword swinging pipes blasting December 30, 2019 6:51 PM  

It is sad that someone would do this in a church full of old ladies.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 6:57 PM  

A guy in a dusty attic wrote:It is sad that someone would do this in a church full of old ladies.
You misspelled "intentional"

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 30, 2019 7:01 PM  

Gravy for the brain.

Clear eyes and a clean heart.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 7:03 PM  

Noah B. wrote:Ran across the Archon Type B pistol yesterday
Thanks. That's worth checking out.

Blogger RobertDWood December 30, 2019 7:08 PM  

The train is fine

Blogger Boomer55 December 30, 2019 7:27 PM  

@60
This is a good sign! [They] are apparently not sending their best, when compared to the Las Vegas scandal.

Blogger Ska_Boss December 30, 2019 7:28 PM  

Dorsal SpineDecember 30, 2019 5:54 PM

"an armed society is a polite society" should be attributed to Robert Heinlein not Ted Nugent.

Fair enough. Never heard of him but that's because the very little fiction I do read is fantasy/medieval.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 30, 2019 7:36 PM  

85. A guy in a dusty attic December 30, 2019 6:51 PM
It is sad that someone would do this in a church full of old ladies.



we're lucky he didn't go after a church day school.

Blogger John Rockwell December 30, 2019 7:50 PM  

That plus high quality tactical training. Precision and the right moves and positioning is important.

Blogger Azimus December 30, 2019 7:51 PM  

An angel guided that bullet into that fucker's head. Piss on his grave may he rot in the hottest fires of hell.

Blogger Calvin809 December 30, 2019 8:01 PM  

Anyone have any experience with the Urban Carry holster?

Blogger ADS December 30, 2019 8:03 PM  

This is pure speculation on my part, but the first casualty may have simply accepted that his time was up and deliberately kept himself as the attacker's target in place of others; the painfully slow draw attempt was perhaps his only chance to get a weapon out by being the least obvious threat he could be. As the ASP channel frequently notes, drawing from concealment against an attacker who has you at gunpoint is nearly always a loss. Regardless of the man's intent, the outcome was him laying his life down so that another member of that church didn't have to. We should all be so lucky to die that well.

Blogger Wormwood December 30, 2019 8:09 PM  

why do women always scream like chimps. It must just be natural because it never fails, ever.

Blogger Balkan Yankee December 30, 2019 8:14 PM  

Fake beard. Trench coat. Agitated demeanor. Most of the congregation was unaware of the danger until the first shot.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 30, 2019 8:25 PM  

I'm not sure where you're getting your holster information from. I carry a tuned and polished Cz97b in a custom leather rig that goes either IWB or OWB. Just tested my self today, I had the weapon drawn and ready from underneath a heavy flannel shirt in a second.

The SOB carrier wasn't ready for prime time, obviously. If the church actually trained for this, they would ensure everyone on their team was carrying a decent rig with rapid deployment. That would have solved the SOB carry problem.

Next, drawing while seated gives you partial concealment from the pew. It also gives you a supported firing position, if you have a clear line of sight.

There was no teason for that guy to die.

Blogger RC December 30, 2019 8:55 PM  

For those who've not done so, the best way to understand what constitutes concealment versus cover is to stop speculating and just go set up various scenarios and then test repeatedly. This will also allow you to strengthen your home defenses as you'll learn very quickly what penetrates and how far and it's unlikely to match your assumptions.
This devil's child had a shotgun. Getting low on the far wall would have provided more than concealment. Those old benches are probably solid hardwood.

What a shame for all but such moments reveal our heros.

That pastor embarrassed himself.

Blogger Goodnight December 30, 2019 9:06 PM  

I got back from a hunting trip this weekend just in time to hear about the shooting. Found out today that I live within a mile of both the shooter and the initial victim - really close to home.

Blogger Monotonous Languor December 30, 2019 9:12 PM  

Amazing that we now live in a society where churches need armed security plans. Why not just admit it? Civil War II in the US has already started. Its intensity varies across locales, in some areas high, other areas low, but all parts of the country are involved. There are also different fronts: psychological, economic, logistical, communications, armed. If you're unable or unwilling to call a spade a spade, then you can't recognize the problem, and you'll never be able to deal with it successfully.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 30, 2019 9:21 PM  

"The SOB carrier wasn't ready for prime time, obviously."

That guy would have been tripping my bells. I think it was the general lack of awareness that left him so vulnerable. If he had prepared himself by positioning and getting his clothes properly situated he could have had a quicker concealed draw with a better angle on the attacker. Lesson of the day, don't ignore fruitcakes.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 30, 2019 9:29 PM  

97. Wormwood December 30, 2019 8:09 PM
why do women always scream like chimps. It must just be natural because it never fails, ever.



yes, she was being totally useless.

but, in fairness, her father was the usher. and he died at the hospital.

96. ADS December 30, 2019 8:03 PM
Regardless of the man's intent, the outcome was him laying his life down so that another member of that church didn't have to.



didn't work. the usher died anyways.

which means there's no reason for him to have not done it a useful way.

i have to say, i'm a bit aggravated by the interview with the hero. the ushers and deacons KNEW this guy was a probable danger ... but he not only didn't draw, he sat down on his holster and obstructed his own draw.

IF
you're going to make pretensions of being a sheep dog
THEN
you should probably make sure that you're actually hazardous to the wolf.

ie - usher is first contact his goal is to deal with the situation without escalation IF POSSIBLE, deacon was primary backup.

deacon took actions which made it impossible for him to be effective backup.

and it got both of them killed.

with a crappy holster like that AND foreknowledge that a person-of-risk was in the sanctuary, he should have drawn and been keeping his pistol concealed offhand before he even sat down.

he can always re-holster at his leisure.

Blogger State Estimation December 30, 2019 9:33 PM  

Sobering, to say the least. My church has a newly fledged security team. We have a meeting scheduled with a couple local officers who help churches with security education. My initial decision was to not CC. I am rethinking that. This video is a hell of an eye opener.

Blogger papabear December 30, 2019 9:45 PM  

@94 We will all face judgment one day. Pray for the assailant.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 30, 2019 10:02 PM  

papabear wrote:Pray for the assailant.
No.
Don't a giant pussy.

Blogger CostelloM December 30, 2019 10:34 PM  

It is rare for Vox to directly reference / recommend a video Unauthorized notwithstanding. This guy has a keen knack for detail in a tactical situation. Hopefully other church congregations will watch this and be better prepared as this is almost certainly going to be more common in the days ahead. It could have been much worse however and would have been if nobody but the assailant had been armed. Virginia? Are you listening?

Blogger Bill Quick December 30, 2019 10:58 PM  

I may be over-analyzing this, but the two murder victims were both over seventy. The hero was over seventy.

Certainly everybody who showed a firearm was well up there.

Does this mean anything?

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim December 30, 2019 11:27 PM  

Doktor Jeep wrote:Acting on suspicions is being judgemental! Hurf blurf! Who are you and who gave you the right to judge people? Hurf blurf!

See what damage the left has done with their century long campaign against judging people? Two men are dead, that we see here. But a mere microcosm of a civilization that got too intimidated to stop judging people.

I used to shut people down on that "who are you to judge" crap when I tell them I know exactly who I am and yes I will judge.

Meanwhile my fellow instructors are dissecting the video. Still no word on the suspect. His leftist/Satanist ties are probably getting scrubbed from the internet right now. Word is out that his name is Brainison DeWall.


Jude 15 "to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Blogger John Rockwell December 30, 2019 11:28 PM  

Bloody hell. Hitting a bystander should be an automatic fail.

As is not coming in with superior tactics that in many cases avoid unnecessary deaths.

The SAS should be the gold standard in my opinion.

Blogger teslawasframed December 30, 2019 11:51 PM  

A line from Louis L'Amour's westerns that always stuck with me is "a gun never did a man any good sittin' in a holster." Either have it in your hand, or be lightning fast getting it into action.

Blogger John Rockwell December 31, 2019 12:09 AM  

It takes training to make that possible.

Blogger John Rockwell December 31, 2019 12:10 AM  

Professionals act efficiently and as effortlessly as possible.

Minimizing waste and energy expenditure.

Just like how effective militaries minimize cost in achieving their objectives.

Blogger John Rockwell December 31, 2019 12:13 AM  

No one deserves redemption. Although its too late for this murderer.

We all deserve to burn in hell.

Blogger RC December 31, 2019 12:57 AM  

@Calvin - I occasionally use an Urban Carry G3 for my full-sized rigs. It's workable and very concealed so worthwhile under certain circumstances. It requires practice of course, takes time to put back in place after the draw, and being overweight will slow you down and probably make it uncomfortable to sit. You have to wear pants that are loose around your thigh. In my experience, get one size larger than recommended. It gets the firearm onto your thigh. No holster I've ever used is perfectly comfortable but it's workable.

Blogger John Rockwell December 31, 2019 1:08 AM  

@Snidely Whiplash

In addition God desires all regardless of what they done to be saved(1 Timothy 2:4) so such an attitude among his believers is definitely the work of the holy spirit.

God is a bleeding heart in this regard as much as he will not hesitate in his wrath to punish the wicked when the right time comes.

Blogger Scott December 31, 2019 1:16 AM  

Time to buy a gun and train to use it as well as this professional.

Blogger LAZ December 31, 2019 1:35 AM  

"Anyone have any experience with the Urban Carry holster?"

It actually works really well, but chances are you'll have to modify your pants because there's almost always a belt loop in the way.

Blogger LAZ December 31, 2019 1:38 AM  

"Hitting a bystander should be an automatic fail."

Unlike the police in a shootout, you are responsible for where your bullets go here in Texas.

Blogger Kiwi December 31, 2019 5:23 AM  

97. Wormwood
why do women always scream like chimps.

Same reason Chimps automatically "pant hoot" when they find a big bunch of banana. Innate response for the benefit of the group. What gets a mans attention more than a woman or child screaming? Not much.

Blogger basementhomebrewer December 31, 2019 8:08 AM  

ran across the Archon Type B pistol yesterday - I didn't get the opportunity to fire it but I like what I see so far. It has a non-Browning locking mechanism, so the barrel doesn't rotate upward as it feeds new rounds, and the slide movement still feels smooth as glass. Factory trigger is nice. If it had come with a threaded barrel I would have bought it. Hopefully they will be adding other calibers soon too.


I actually bought an Arsenal version back in 2016. It is a very smooth shooter. One problem I found with the arsenal version was the polymer between the recoil spring and trigger housing started to flaked off on mine and actually jammed it. It took a lot of work to get the slide to finally pull back. I went ahead and scraped the rest of the polymer off, not sure how that is going to effect the longevity of the pistol.

Other than that, my friends consistently shoot better with it than their own pistols when I let them try it out.

Blogger Akulkis December 31, 2019 8:54 AM  

@69

"Shotgun, you clown."

And what in that room, exactly, would stop a shotgun slug?

Look in the mirror, clown.

Blogger Akulkis December 31, 2019 9:08 AM  

".223 aka 5.56mm

Wut

.223 meets SAAMI standards. SAAMI measures pressure at the center of the casing. The hotter 5.56 complies with NATO standards; pressure is measured at the leade of the chamber.

AKA Two different rounds."

Same projectile.
Same muzzle velocity.

The pressures differ only because SAAMI and NATO use two *entirely* different methods to measure pressure.

Does the upper receiver and chamber of an AR-15 differ in any appreciable way than that of an M-16?

Nope.

Same bolt.
Same chamber lugs.
Same chamber wall thickness.

Anybody who tells you that "5.56mm is a hotter round than .223" doesn't know what they're talking about, because the two pressure measurement methods are NOT interchangeable nor even relatable TO EACH OTHER.

SAAMI pressure measurements are consistent with respect to other SAAMI measurements.

NATO pressure measurements are consistent with respect to other NATO measurements.

SAAMI measures pressure BETWEEN the case wall and the chamber wall. NATO measures pressure IN FRONT of the case mouth.

The SAAMI pressure gaage reads the pressure on the OUTSIDE of the case.

The NATO pressure guage reads the pressure on the bare chammber wall.

Now, go to engineering school, and learn how to figure out why identical things might not have identical numbers when reported by two different groups.

It's like comparing horsepower of an engine... brake horsepower measured at the crankshaft, or delivered horsepower, measured at the tired contact patch AFTER it's gone through the torque converter (losses), transmission gearing (losses) and differential (more losses) [And yes, front wheel drive vehicles have differentials, too... it's contained WITHIN the transmission housing. Otherwise, going around turns would be a real bitch.]

Blogger Akulkis December 31, 2019 9:31 AM  

@76 Hollobecquegirl

Be aware that SOME hemostat agent bandages use chitose, a sugar obtained from crab shells, and there is a LOT of iodine in the distillate. Anybody with a "seafood" allergy aka iodine allergy can be put into shock by one of those bandages.

Also, know that it's the one that works the fastest, because it causes the artery wall to constrict, AS WELL as making the blood "thicker" around the wound to promote clotting.


Another major hemostat bandage substance tends to cause alkaline burns around the wound. But again, it works


"Quick-clot" brand uses kaolin powder to sop up as much water from the blood as possible, causing the remaining parts of the blood (cells, clotting factor, lipids, dissolved solids, etc) to form a matrix that clots rather quickly, but not as fast as the other two.

When I was in Iraq, front-line medics carried all three types, and all three types were in "combat lifesaver" bags.


IN ADDITION to bandage material with rapid clotting agents, ALSO obtain the "Combat Application Tourniquet."

It works EXTREMELY well, and can be applied very rapidly*, EVEN 1-handed if half of your arm got chopped off.

* in under 30 seconds if you're wise and take it out of it's packaging when you first get it.

The C-A-T is designed to be easily sized for application to either the thigh or the arm (above the elbow), with no additional time needed for either use.

(Do NOT apply a tourniquet at any point on an arm below the elbow -- all you'll do is fracture the ulna or radius, the ends cutting into muscle and possibly the artery running between those two bones, but either way causing MORE bleeding.

Same goes for applying a tourniquet to the leg below the knee... you'll fracture the tibia and fibula before you stop the bleeding.

Blogger tuberman December 31, 2019 9:49 AM  

There are various methods of training to maintain a powerful calm under pressure or adrenal rush. The adrenaline is going to happen, then some get shaky and fall apart, some respond fairly well, yet still make mistakes, and some retain a deadly calm.

There are people that are naturally calm in a crisis, but training obviously spikes the ability. Gun training may be enough for a natural, yet some forms of MMA training would add a lot through breathing control. Sniper training, or similar for hand guns would be the best.

General training with gun and creating confidence is the first key. Breathing control is a an important add-on.

Blogger Akulkis December 31, 2019 9:51 AM  

@94

"An angel guided that bullet into that fucker's head. Piss on his grave may he rot in the hottest fires of hell."

If, as reports say, he was a firearms instructor, he's done a LOT of silhoutte reaction shooting.

Reaction shooting is what the U.S Army called "Quick Kill" during the 1960's (Unfortunately, they didn't teach soldiers how to zero their sites. Now they do, and the results are EXTREMELY impressive).

Reaction drills bring about conditioning. "Acquire sight picture RAPIDLY, and as soon as the sight picture is good, pull the trigger."

From experience, I can tell you, that once you reach a certain level of proficiency, you're not even aware of pulling the trigger.

I once was doing some practice on a civilian range. My sights were out of alignment, coming into alignment, and doing so just as they crossed the center of mass of the target, before coming out of alignment again. I thought to myself "Damn, I should have pulled the trigger."
That's when I noticed I was feeling the recoil from already having pulled the trigger.

And I don't shoot even 10% as often as a civilian firearms instructor who own his own range would.

The man trained for the day he would need to do what he did. And he did it.

That shot was no miracle. That's what I would expect from a man with his background.

When you've trained for something, over and over, and then the "something" actually happens, your mind IMMEDIATELY switches on the training, before you even realize it. I once found myself in a lopsided fight in the downtown of a suburb around bar-closing time on a weekend night. There happened to be a 2x4 nearby, so I grabbed it. Without even thinking, I immediately started carrying out the appropriate bayonet drill actions ... first making repeated blocks from my 3 assailants (millenials... none of the 3 bothered to try going around to my rear... thank God!)... and as soon as they backed off, I immediately switch from the defensive "high carry" position to the "attack" position (rifle carried horizontal, about waist high, pointy blade towards enemy). There was no blade, but as soon as they saw me switch to that position, and then advance forward one step, accompanied by the loud yelling with each movement, they suddenly scattered.

I had not done the bayonet drill in over 20 years. But when we had done it in basic training, it was to the point that we were all absolutely sick of it, and then we continued on for another 2 hours.

And that right there is one of the secrets to the martial arts. Repetitive drills until both your mind and body are numb...and then keep on going for a good chunk of time more. And then it stays with the trainee/student forever.

Blogger Akulkis December 31, 2019 9:56 AM  

@99

"There was no reason for that guy to die."

That's for damned sure.

If he had stayed seated, he very well could have got the first shot off BEFORE the shotgun guy had even escalated to that level.

And in every state of the union, "self defense" includes "defense of others" and pointing a weapon at someone constitutes a lethal threat. Would have been and open and shut "good shot" even if the shotgun was never fired.

Blogger Akulkis December 31, 2019 10:11 AM  

@111

"Bloody hell. Hitting a bystander should be an automatic fail.
...
The SAS should be the gold standard in my opinion."

The SAS only accepts those with high IQs.
Police departments REJECT anybody with a high IQ except maybe as a detective -- who generally don't leave the office until the crime has already occurred.

Different IQ standards between the police's "foot soldiers" and the footsoldiers of the SAS, not surprisingly, bring about vastly different results.

The worst part is, most who are cops these days want to do it because their father was a cop... or they want the power trip of gun + badge + uniform... or they want to play "army" against people who, for the most part, are never armed, and only a few are ever armed.

My perfect world scenario:
Being a patrolman wouldn't be a job you can sign up for. It would be by draft only, with a mandate that there be no upper cap on IQ of police force draftees.
And the State and Federal Constitutional Rights portion of their training would be taught by spectrum of dissidents.

Blogger Dr Caveman December 31, 2019 10:19 AM  

Arteries tend to retract as well, so tourniquets are best placed as close to the torso as possible

Blogger The Cooler December 31, 2019 10:31 AM  

@124

Are you Dirk Manly's sock puppet?

They are two different rounds. Which is why one can safely fire .223 ammunition in a 5.56 chambered gun but the reverse is generally not true, at least not without eventual if not immediate issue. Chambers cut to .223 specs have a shorter leade and shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 chamber specs. Because .223 and 5.56 are different rounds.

Blogger Tars Tarkas December 31, 2019 10:57 AM  

The Active Self Protection guy is a moron, a shill and a major gamma.

He has absolutely ZERO experience. His claim to fame is watching youtube videos.

Check out Rick Gore's Think Like A Cop channel. 30 years LE experience, certified trainer and recognized subject matter expert in deadly force by the courts.

Blogger Azimus December 31, 2019 1:20 PM  

127. AkulkisDecember 31, 2019 9:51 AM
That shot was no miracle. That's what I would expect from a man with his background.


All excellent points Akulkis. Perhaps then I would say "God prepared him for this day." At the time I commented, I had just seen the video for the first time. A little angry.

Or maybe we could say, its a miracle he wasn't in the can, or he wasn't in the back getting coffee, or patrolling around the parking lot.

Blogger Noah B. December 31, 2019 2:23 PM  

Because .223 and 5.56 are different rounds.

They are indeed. The difference is subtle but potentially noticeable, most often in bolt action rifles or some of the Mini-14's. If you have a barrel chambered in .223 Wylde you don't really have to worry about the difference and it's a good all-around compromise between accuracy and working with a wide variety of ammo. Lots of excellent new production barrels out there and most are very reasonably priced.

More good info here: https://americanweaponscomponents.com/clearing-the-caliber-confusion-223-wylde-vs-5-56-nato

Blogger MagnusStout December 31, 2019 4:12 PM  

Wanted to take time to digest the video....

Nothing will advance the gun rights agenda like these videos and discussions. This reminds me of the “Kitty Dukakis Rape Question 1988”:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXz4wFDAo0

These amygdala-triggering events obliterate liberal shibboleths.

Blogger John Rockwell December 31, 2019 10:28 PM  

LAZ wrote:"Hitting a bystander should be an automatic fail."

Unlike the police in a shootout, you are responsible for where your bullets go here in Texas.


If Texas let all the californian locusts in. It will no longer be true unfortunately.

Blogger John Rockwell December 31, 2019 10:31 PM  

Akulkis wrote:@111

"Bloody hell. Hitting a bystander should be an automatic fail.

...

The SAS should be the gold standard in my opinion."

The SAS only accepts those with high IQs.

Police departments REJECT anybody with a high IQ except maybe as a detective -- who generally don't leave the office until the crime has already occurred.

Different IQ standards between the police's "foot soldiers" and the footsoldiers of the SAS, not surprisingly, bring about vastly different results.

The worst part is, most who are cops these days want to do it because their father was a cop... or they want the power trip of gun + badge + uniform... or they want to play "army" against people who, for the most part, are never armed, and only a few are ever armed.

My perfect world scenario:

Being a patrolman wouldn't be a job you can sign up for. It would be by draft only, with a mandate that there be no upper cap on IQ of police force draftees.

And the State and Federal Constitutional Rights portion of their training would be taught by spectrum of dissidents.


Indeed. And the training is super-hi caliber for the SAS.

Even lower IQ cops with much better training should be able to act on said training with much better results.

Blogger Akulkis January 01, 2020 2:53 AM  

"Chambers cut to .223 specs have a shorter leade and shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 chamber specs. Because .223 and 5.56 are different rounds."

That's a case issue.

The projectiles are the same, coming out the barrel at the same muzzle velocity, and have the same in flight, transition, and terminal ballistics.

For the purposes of this discussion, they are the same. This is a gunfight discussion, and I was talking about what constitutes cover vs. concealment. Not the arcane issues of case size differences measured in thousandths of an inch.

From personal experience, 5.56mm works in an AR-15 just fine. No misfeeds, no ejection failures. Might erode the throat a bit faster. But if I were in a position of having an AR-15, and having to choose between defending myself by loading my mags with 5.56mm or nothing at all, I'll take the 5.56mm.

In fact, the only problem I've ever experienced with an AR-15, M-16, or M-4 is a .223 casing failing to extract properly because the head ripped off (and no, it wasn't reloaded brass). Next round pushed in, but of course, wouldn't seat properly, and the bolt didn't even come close to going forward far enough for the locking lugs to rotate into the locked position.

Tapped the round out with a cleaning rod.

Removed the bad brass with a case extractor -- which worked beautifully. Stuck it into the bolt, cycled the weapon, and tadaa, extractor and broken case came flying out.
Worth every cent of the $15 I paid for it.

Bought .30 cal and 9mm versions for my deployment to Iraq. Kept all three with me at all times, just in case. Thankfully, I never needed them. But just having them helped ease my mind.

Blogger The Cooler January 01, 2020 4:26 AM  

For the purposes of this discussion, they are the same.

For any discussion whatsoever they are different rounds. You should stop typing.

Scratch that. You should absolutely keep typing.

Blogger Akulkis January 01, 2020 7:22 AM  

According to Andrew Touhy who conducting all three types of tests: SAAMI, NATO, and CIP (A European firearms testing agency); on both M-16s and AR-15s, the internal pressure differences are less than 5%. Well below the 50% safety margin that proof-test rounds are fired at.

No matter whether .223 or 5.56mm rounds are shot, an M-16/M-4 chamber will show 5% lower pressures.

The big bugaboo is with extremely long rounds (like 80 and 90 grain projectiles). However, ammunition loaded with such large projectiles are too long to fit in any magazine made for an AR-15 or 5.56mm STANAG magazine well. Those rounds have to be hand fed through the ejection port, and require custom chambers anyways. The problem is that they start out with the bullet touching the lands, and so the bullet can have a slight delay leaving the cartridge mouth, causing over-pressure problems.


Do your research before just blindly lambasting someone who writes something other than what you've been lead to believe by people who looked at two different numbers and didn't understand WHY they are different.

I looked into this a long time ago, because I had a personal interest to find out WHY the SAAMI and NATO pressure numbers were so different.

CIP also says that any .223/5.56mm round which passes NATO standard tests passes their standard for civilian firearms, and need not be tested by CIP's process.

You think YOU know more about the subject than the firearms pros at the CIP?

Here's a free tip:
http://blog.westernpowders.com/2019/04/223-remington-and-the-5-56x45mm-military-nato-cartridge-and-chambers/

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New year's resolution for me is to begin tactical training. I start at the end of the month.

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