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Sunday, December 15, 2019

Let Scotland go

Boris Johnson and the Tories are making a massive blunder if they fail to support the Scottish National Party and embrace Scottish independence:
Already this morning the Twittersphere buzzes with talk of a renewed Scottish independence campaign, while the SNP yesterday announced its support for another referendum if a "material change in circumstances" arose between Scotland and the greater union. Surely a landslide victory by the Tories — who are widely disliked by the Scots — and a flashing green light for a deeply unpopular Brexit represent exactly such a change.

Scotland and England are not magically joined at the hip. If the Scots don't want Brexit, don't want Boris Johnson, and don't want the Tories, who says the current political makeup of the UK is forever and unchanging? Political arrangements are not something to impose on reluctant, disbelieving people. If we favor independence and political self-determination only when we like the results, the only liberty on offer is the liberty to agree. But political universalism is an abstraction, and an arrogant one at that.

If Scots choose Holyrood over Westminster, or even Brussels over Holyrood, who are we to object?
Given the way in which the Scots have been the primary engine of left-wing power in the United Kingdom, Boris Johnson can secure not only the restoration of British sovereignty, but a multi-generational defeat of the Labour Left by excising the Scottish nation from the British crown.

This will, of course, mark the penultimate stage in the end of the British empire, but the empire has been shrinking steadily since the beginning of WWII. And there is absolutely no point fighting the nationalist trend in favor of a dying and discredited imperialism.

The Scots deserve to rule themselves. Let Scotland go!

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124 Comments:

Blogger Shane Bradman December 15, 2019 11:34 AM  

Boris won't get a choice. The Scottish opinion is clear. My hope is that Boris is trying to put aside anything that is not Brexit for the meantime and will come to his senses later when he gets around to it.

Blogger Zaklog the Great December 15, 2019 11:35 AM  

As someone with some degree of Scottish heritage (going by family names, if nothing else), it saddens me that Scotland is such a negative influence on the U.K. But facts are facts and what-about-mes are just annoying whining.

Blogger Fargoth December 15, 2019 11:38 AM  

Listening to the stream the other day, it's interesting how the Scots lean left politically. Did all the right-wing Scots come to America? Or is there something in the Gaelic spirit that's left-leaning? I suspect there's truth in both.

Blogger Jab Burrwalky December 15, 2019 11:40 AM  

And give Ireland back to the Irish, while you're at it!! That'd solve that pesky backstop issue too!

Blogger SciVo December 15, 2019 11:42 AM  

Either rape the Scots or leave them alone. If there's no droit du seigneur, then what's the point? Stop pussyfooting around.

Blogger R Devere December 15, 2019 11:45 AM  

Letting Scotland go may get rid of a large number of Lefties, but it also means letting go of the "brains" of the outfit! Scots as a population group have an average IQ ten points higher than your average Brit (love of haggis not withstanding!). A large majority of notable "British" inventions were from those of Scottish origin or heritage!

Essentially, Scots are ((( ))) of the British Empire native groups.

Blogger rcocean December 15, 2019 11:50 AM  

The one way in ensure Scottish Independence is to allow the whole UK to vote. Most Englishmen are tired of the Scots, and would love to see them off. Personally, I loved the Scots when I visited - why they're such political screw-balls in a mystery.

Blogger Greg from the Piedmont December 15, 2019 11:57 AM  

I believe that the Scots who stood for liberty and individual responsibility did leave Britain and move to the Americas (which included my ancestors). That was the only way I could explain how a country that had given rise to such a strong race of independent minded people be so left leaning now.

For a time I thought the migration had pretty much depleted their fighting courage as well until I heard about the bayonet charge by Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in May 2004. Then I saw their pipe band come marching through the New Hampshire Highland Games later that year, and I thought that these were soldiers I would have loved to command in my day.

As much as it pains me to admit, England will be better off without the Scots.

Blogger Desdichado December 15, 2019 12:00 PM  

I suspect that because the Scottish culture is less capable of generating the material prosperity that the English can, the Scottish lean leftist because that way they can get more free stuff from the English. Other aspects of leftism, including the strong desire to tell everyone else what to do all of the time rub against the Scottish spirit the wrong way.

If Scotland were cut loose by the British and cut loose by Brussels and truly left to their own devices, I suspect much of their leftism would evaporate.

Blogger kurt9 December 15, 2019 12:01 PM  

I agree. If I were living in England and was a Tory (conservative) voter, I would be very keen on Scottish independence. Ending the empire would essentially gut Labour for the next 50 years.

Blogger Wazdakka December 15, 2019 12:02 PM  

Had my pikku joullu last night.
There was a Scotsman an Englishman and an Irishman present.
The barrimies asked us what drinks we wanted.
"Three beers" says the Englishman.
Three beers are served, and a fly lands on each beer and promptly drowns.

The Englishman pushes his glass away in disgust.

The Irishman pulls out the fly and drinks his beer.

The Scotsman grabs the fly and screams "Spit it out you thieving bastard!"


Do we really want a world devoid of Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman jokes? Now that would be sad.

Blogger borsabil December 15, 2019 12:03 PM  

I'm an ethnic Scot so I think I have some expertise in explaining the popularity of the SNP to my countrymen. After Thatcher destroyed heavy industry and manufacturing in Scotland the political landscape was turned on it's head. Scotland used to be a bastion of Toryism and Unionism with Labour's base confined to the Irish settlers in Glasgow and the west coast. With the gutting of the economy through the insane neo liberalism of the 1980s that changed. The priority became securing as much transfer payments from the English as possible because there was almost nothing else to prop up the economy. At first that was expressed by voting Labour but after the transformation of Labour under Blair into a neo liberal and globalist party the SNP took over.

60% of Scotland's trade goes to England, about 20% goes to the US and 18% to the EU. The idea that Scotland would throw up a border and start paying tariffs for English goods is beyond laughable. Scottish independence was only a realistic proposition if the rest of the UK remained in the EU. In the last independence referendum, a vote I was excluded from because I had the bad grace to live outside the country, the SNP were selling the idea that Scotland wouldn't suffer economic calamity because we'd keep the pound and anyway we were all in the EU so no bigee. Even then they failed as most Scots couldn't live without that English cash. The truth is that Brexit hasn't made independence more likely it's made it impossible. I'll go one further and predict that the Irish will have to leave the EU as well, England is so economically dominant in the British Isles not being a part of a customs union with it is unthinkable.

So my take away? If BoJo wants to be rid of the Scots he needs to go for a soft Brexit, stay in the EU customs union, and maybe the Scots will be brave enough to leave. I can't see that happening, the Tories would be annihilated in England if they went that route, so unfortunately for England it looks like they're stuck with us.

Blogger kurt9 December 15, 2019 12:03 PM  

No Irish, Scot, or Welsh will ever vote conservative because the Conservative party, being the heir of the Tories, is seen as the party of imperialism. Let them go and Labour is finished for all time.

Blogger SDaly December 15, 2019 12:03 PM  

Scotland was always a thorn in England’s side. The Union eliminated the threat of foreign powers using Scotland to undermine England. Separation would require also neutering Scotland, and keeping it under English defensive control.

Blogger Gallant December 15, 2019 12:05 PM  

They could split without addressing the monarchy question. They were 2 states that happened to have their crowns fall on the same king - wasn’t until 100 years later they actually United .

Blogger Gallant December 15, 2019 12:06 PM  

If you want to be technical, Northern Ireland’s (still) majority “Protestant” population are Ulster Scots, and they are very right wing on social issues etc compared to even England imho.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 15, 2019 12:10 PM  

Listening to the stream the other day, it's interesting how the Scots lean left politically. Did all the right-wing Scots come to America? Or is there something in the Gaelic spirit that's left-leaning? I suspect there's truth in both.

It's an emotional response to being dominated by the English that Marxists have exploited. A bit like how black Americans almost always vote Democrat, even if they're practicing Christians who want less immigration and hate sodomy.

Blogger Matthew T December 15, 2019 12:14 PM  

Did all the right-wing Scots come to America? Or is there something in the Gaelic spirit that's left-leaning? I suspect there's truth in both.

Dunno man, but I'll tell you this, I've heard it said that one reason Canada is relatively Left is because of how Scottish it is (i.e., really, really Scottish, more than people realize, even Montreal is littered with "Mac" this and that). I've never been able to grasp what's going on here given the conservative reputation that the Scots-Irish in the US have.

Blogger steb December 15, 2019 12:20 PM  

Instead of independence, Scotland should cozy up to Sweden. Some kind of Northern European Commonwealth makes sense, especially since both countries share pretty much the same politics.

Blogger Joseph Dooley December 15, 2019 12:20 PM  

"Political arrangements are not something to impose on reluctant, disbelieving people."

From your mouth to God's ears.

Blogger VD December 15, 2019 12:24 PM  

Letting Scotland go may get rid of a large number of Lefties, but it also means letting go of the "brains" of the outfit!

That's a feature, not a bug. Smart evil people are worse than stupid evil people.

Blogger Lazarus December 15, 2019 12:29 PM  

borsabil wrote:the SNP were selling the idea that Scotland wouldn't suffer economic calamity because we'd keep the pound and anyway we were all in the EU so no bigee. Even then they failed as most Scots couldn't live without that English cash

Sounds just like the Quebec situation in Canada.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 15, 2019 12:32 PM  

I've never been able to grasp what's going on here given the conservative reputation that the Scots-Irish in the US have.

Whether a group is left-wing or right-wing appears to correlate on how often they go to church and believe in basic Christian tenets. The northern Irish Protestants are still generally churchgoers, but the Scots aren't. Same holds true with Scotch-Irish Americans vs. Canadians. Same goes for Catholics -- if you remove Catholicism from a Catholic, you get a Marxist.

Blogger Jeremy Daw December 15, 2019 12:32 PM  

I have no objection to Scotland leaving the UK, but, the election result of the SNP notwithstanding, I'm unconvinced the nationalists would win a second referendum. If the election result is any indication, they just don't have the individual votes. A strong campaign from the Nationalists could swing it, of course, but the SNP is a bog standard 'progressive' party - inefficient, ineffective and infected with cronyism. The Scots might prefer rule by Westminster in the long run.

Still, the issue should ultimately be settled by the people of Scotland and it's hypocritical (though hardly unexpected) for the Tories, having championed the UK's leaving of the EU, to deny the Scottish people an opportunity to decide their future.

A split between Scotland and England does have serious implications for both sides, mind you - not least in regard to the UK's ability to continue to wield a nuclear deterrent. Trident submarines are based in Scotland and there aren't any alternative facilities yet in the rest of the UK.

Not that that's anything I have particularly strong feelings about either way.

Blogger Wazdakka December 15, 2019 12:40 PM  

borsabil wrote:I'm an ethnic Scot so I think I have some expertise in explaining the popularity of the SNP to my countrymen.

Lived through it in the 80s and 90s. Not a bad assessment, but I disagree. Its more simple than that.
Braveheart

Blogger John Best. December 15, 2019 12:44 PM  

@4 What about population transfers? All the Celtic Irish living in Britain move back to Ireland. So the Loyalists and Anglo-Irish moved back to Britain.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 15, 2019 12:47 PM  

Still, the issue should ultimately be settled by the people of Scotland and it's hypocritical (though hardly unexpected) for the Tories, having championed the UK's leaving of the EU, to deny the Scottish people an opportunity to decide their future.

I think it would be wise to let Scotland have another referendum after Brexit is done. If Scotland votes No Thanks again, then it would be an indication that Scottish leftism is more bark than bite.

A split between Scotland and England does have serious implications for both sides, mind you - not least in regard to the UK's ability to continue to wield a nuclear deterrent. Trident submarines are based in Scotland and there aren't any alternative facilities yet in the rest of the UK.

I don't think it would be any more difficult than the arrangements Russia had to make with Ukraine over the Black Sea Fleet or Kazakhstan over the Cosmodrome. Or for that matter, what we have with Communist Cuba over Guantanamo.

Blogger borsabil December 15, 2019 12:49 PM  

@14 I'm a lowland Scot. As far as I know my ancestors are 100% Anglo Saxon. The Scots language is closer to original middle English than the Queen's variety spoken in the south. Scotland consists of three distinct peoples, the Gaels in the north, the Irish settlers in the west and the Scots Saxons in the east and the south. There's been plenty of intermingling over the centuries but it's remarkable how these ethnic groups still persist.

The union with the English was driven by a number of things, but foreign meddling wasn't one of them. It was primarily economic, Scotland was suffering a severe economic depression at the time of union and was desperate for English money and trade (some things never change). The crown had already been united under the Stuarts. Scotland and England also had converted to Protestantism. But the primary reason that a lasting union was feasible was that the English and the bulk of the Scots population were ethnically identical.

While I agree with Vox that it would be good for the English to be rid of the Scots it also deeply saddens me that my nation, Great Britain, the home of the Anglo Saxon peoples of the British Isles, could be ripped apart by leftist cretins.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 15, 2019 12:51 PM  

The best way to get rid of Scots is to let them think that leaving is solely their idea.
Hopefully there is no civnat trap to this that we see Trump fall into. Like if California wanted to secede, we would see Trump all into "keeping our wonderful glorious union together!".
In England they would be smart to resist Scottish secession only on a "Briar patch" level.

Blogger Alexander December 15, 2019 12:51 PM  

I for one believe all independence referendums should have two parts, so as to discourage this sort of Scottish perpetual voting system:

Any independence referendum should first be a vote by Scotland to leave, but should that vote fail, then it triggers a second vote where England, Wales, and N Ireland can vote to boot them out anyway.

If the Scottish want independence I support them and wish them the best. What I do not support is a running sore of threatened referendums in exchange for gibs. Go or stay, but no more of this drawn out nonsense.

Blogger MarkN December 15, 2019 12:52 PM  

borsabil. Agreed. My grandparents would be turning in their grave and they loved Thatcher.

Blogger English Tom December 15, 2019 12:53 PM  

@SDaly

Excellent point. Do we really believe the EU would not try to leverage advantage against England via Scotland and Ireland, like France and Spain have tried in the past?

Blogger Andrew Jackson December 15, 2019 12:56 PM  

England should invade and wipe out the feminist scum who run Scotland !

Blogger bramley December 15, 2019 12:58 PM  

Just think, the exports of Buckfast to an independent Scotland would herald a new prosperity for the English economy!

Blogger Hatman December 15, 2019 1:07 PM  

The Tories are Left wing on nearly every issue and Boris has moved the party even further to the left.

Blogger Jay Will December 15, 2019 1:11 PM  

Its independence from The English Crown and the toffs of the South they want. To "cock a snook" at them. But England would vote them out tomorrow in a landslide and their snook would be far cockier.

Blogger weka December 15, 2019 1:13 PM  

Letting Scotland go may get rid of a large number of Lefties, but it also means letting go of the "brains" of the outfit!

Gammas always project.

Blogger bramley December 15, 2019 1:13 PM  

The real question of Scottish independence is the North Sea oil fields. If the Scots went their own way, and then laid claim to those in their new territorial waters, it could cause all sorts of ructions with Westminster. That's what the independence movement is premised on, that the revenue from oil would keep MacTavish in Special Brew for perpetuity.

Blogger WillBound December 15, 2019 1:14 PM  

The Scots have their own parliament, which has very considerable domestic power, plus a disproportionately large representation in the Westminster parliament. Out of the last five prime ministers three (Blair, Brown and Cameron) have Scottish backgrounds. So the Scottish choice basically is between being a big fish in a big pond, or being a small fish in a small pond.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 15, 2019 1:14 PM  

My argument is just to not oppose a referendum rather than supporting it - to avoid hypocrisy if nothing else.

Blogger Johnny December 15, 2019 1:20 PM  

For Johnson right now the focus has got to stay on Brexit. Don't let side issues screw it up.

Blogger Andrew Brown December 15, 2019 1:24 PM  

Scottish conservatives got 6 seats in Scotland.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 15, 2019 1:31 PM  

I think that the faster you break the Empire the faster the Scotts can get to setting their nation in order if they still have it in them.

Blogger Andrew Brown December 15, 2019 1:37 PM  

I'm an ethnic Scot, legit descendant from the Brown clan. From my experience there are many Unionists still around, I don't believe an IndyRef2 vote will be much different from the 1st. Pro independence party votes the election there were only around 45%. Just because the SNP took ~ 80% of seats doesn't mean the people will vote for independence.
Also, having Scottish heritage means nothing.

Blogger IAMSpartacus0000 December 15, 2019 1:47 PM  

The Scotish Left problem is the same problem American minorities have. They all fell for the slave game. If I give you free stuff then you are my kid or my woman or my slave.

Scotland does have smart people but so does Isreal and your intellect does not keep Babylon from utilizing your IQ for their gain

Blogger Gallant December 15, 2019 1:51 PM  

In a way, the issues with ScotExit that they parade around so much as huge, and they are huge, are also the least messy. The nuclear subs will keep their parking-spots, and north-sea oil work will continue, and the revenue/profit split will just be some negotiated simple numbers.

Citizenship (who holds and where) in the 2 new states, the massive number of English people living there already, where if they cut it down the line many mobile Scots may want to rush to England to get better opportunities etc (or other social consequences we couldn't predict), a large border which will be a near repeat of the "northern Ireland" issue, etc. . . .

Blogger Gallant December 15, 2019 1:55 PM  

We could quibble what makes a nationality; but different expatriate Scots in different areas are from different parts of Scotland in different eras and under different selective pressures - a southern Scot and a highlander being genocided under 'highland clearances' were from different worlds.

Speaking for the US south, the Scots around here seem to historically be the 'we just wanna be left alone, and we are out of here' - twice, once to the Americas, and again relocating to places like Texas.

Blogger Slippin JImmy December 15, 2019 2:06 PM  

Don't parade your ignorance. The Tories have plenty of support in Wales and despite losing 7 of the 13 seats that they wine there in 2017, they easily remain the second largest part in Scotland after the SNP.

Blogger cyrus83 December 15, 2019 2:07 PM  

The United Kingdom should dissolve the whole union at this point. England doesn't need the headaches of trying to pacify the Scots and the Irish, and it would do well to jettison the Scots before Labour gets a chance to regroup and make an unholy alliance with the SNP in a future parliament.

Blogger Slippin JImmy December 15, 2019 2:10 PM  

Like the Irish the Scots have a compulsive need to hate someone. Without the pimp hand of England to provide a focus for their hatred they'd on each other at some point.

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 15, 2019 2:24 PM  

A lot of Irishmen moved to Scotland in the early part of the 20th Century. They were generally Leftists, especially those involved with the trade union movement i.e. Communists.
Also, bear in mind that a huge number of Scots are dependent on welfare, thus they vote to the Left.

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 15, 2019 2:26 PM  

So Scotland can become the rape capital of the British Isles?

Blogger mike December 15, 2019 2:26 PM  

One cannot be a nationalist and also be pro support blind imperialism. Let Scotland go!

Blogger CM December 15, 2019 2:29 PM  

Given the way in which the Scots have been the primary engine of left-wing power in the United Kingdom, Boris Johnson can secure not only the restoration of British sovereignty, but a multi-generational defeat of the Labour Left by excising the Scottish nation from the British crown.

It may be that when finally their fortunes are not in service to the crown of England, they themselves might feel the stirrings of nationalism within their ranks, finally free of the English bondage that has suppressed and depressed her urgings.

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 15, 2019 2:29 PM  

Ha! But surely this trade deficit could be balanced with exports of Irnbru and haggis?

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 15, 2019 2:34 PM  

Yes, I have previously thought that the Scots were to the English as the Greeks were to the Romans.

Blogger Griffin the Grey December 15, 2019 2:37 PM  

All the technical issues: splitting the debt, assets (for instance military equipment), and working out leases on a few key military sites (HMNB Clyde and RNAD Coulport if you want to keep Trident) etcetera are manageable. If you can't get these things sorted out in a reasonable manner, whilst offering the SNP independence in exchange, then you don't belong in politics.

Do we really believe the EU would not try to leverage advantage against England via Scotland and Ireland

Currently the EU is leveraging Scotland and Northern Ireland against the English and they are able to do this because of the unions between each of these countries and England.

Ending the union of England and Scotland removes a large EU fifth column from English politics.

Blogger Seeingsights December 15, 2019 2:41 PM  

A hypothesis I have is that a state or nation is more like to secede if they are net givers. If they are net receivers, the odds of secession is less than 50 percent.
There is talk about the western provinces of Canada seceding. I think that due to their economic independence, mainly in energy, that's a real possibility.
Quebec voted against succession years ago, and I think it's no accident that Quebec has a bigger than usual welfare state.
I'd like to see Scotland secede though.

Blogger Attack helicopter December 15, 2019 2:46 PM  

If they don't let Scotland go then Michel Barnier would be right: "Brexit will not get done by 2021". There is the danger that the British will play the same game with the Scots as the Eu is playing with them.

Blogger andy December 15, 2019 2:48 PM  

Out of 59 seats in Scotland, only 6 went to the Conservatives. It is instructive to note that all of them are the Border regions and the area around Aberdeen, where the north sea oil industry is based. These are the areas that are productive and money earning. All the rest are non self sustaining areas. At the time of the original independence referendum the price of Brent crude was around $100.
There was no way an independent Scotland could have afforded to leave with oil at that price, even with an amicable division of sunk costs in the oil fields with the rest of the UK.
Today the oil price is $65.
Financially, separation with England will be ruinous for the Scots.
As for Scots being of an higher intelligence, I can testify to that ;-)
But seriously, parts of Glasgow have the lowest life expectancy of all of the UK. Yet they keep voting for the same political parties which keep them addicted to welfare (and deep fried Mars Bars ). How smart is that?

Blogger Steve December 15, 2019 2:55 PM  

Nah. There's no political mileage in it for BoJo. The forthcoming boundary changes will more than offset the loss of Scottish seats, no British PM wants his legacy to be the destruction of the United Kingdom, and in any event the establishment has learned that referenda are dangerous and chancy things. I don't expect we'll be allowed a direct vote on important issues anytime soon.

The SNP will posture and pout, but it's not in their interests to get another referendum either, because they'd probably lose again. At which point, the SNP would immediately degenerate into vicious infighting that'd make ferrets in a sack blush.

It's very much in their interests to keep their cult agitated against the perfidious English by being seen to demand another once-in-a-generation referendum, only to be denied by them eeeevil Tories. This way, both the London and Edinburgh branches of the establishment get what they really want, which is to keep their cushy jobs.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia December 15, 2019 2:58 PM  

Desdichado wrote:I suspect that because the Scottish culture is less capable of generating the material prosperity that the English can, the Scottish lean leftist because that way they can get more free stuff from the English. Other aspects of leftism, including the strong desire to tell everyone else what to do all of the time rub against the Scottish spirit the wrong way.

If Scotland were cut loose by the British and cut loose by Brussels and truly left to their own devices, I suspect much of their leftism would evaporate.


This.

Support for Scottish independence lost by 10 points in the last referendum in 2014 with -- are you ready? -- an 85% voter turnout.

Why? Sensible Scots know they are better off in the UK -- they get more government money and, even more important, economic benefits they WOULDN'T get as a smaller less robust economy that the the rest of the UK.

Moreover, the anti-Independence factions is Scotland are well organized. They will get out any future vote big time.

So, yeah, it's sugar and spice to think balkanizing is simply a great way to reinforce some ideal sort of "nationalism" but it don't always work that way, nor should it, necessarily.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 15, 2019 2:59 PM  

So how does one tell a Scot from a Brit? Does one like his ale flatter and warmer than the other?
Are all Scots soulless gingers?

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 15, 2019 3:06 PM  

That explains the Confederate flag. :-)

Blogger Hammerli 280 December 15, 2019 3:12 PM  

@3, 18: The United States' Scots are mostly Scots-Irish. Wave 2 immigration was almost all from that group. Cranky SOBs, as willing to kill a man as shake hands with him. Prime movers in the American Revolution.

Canadian Scots are Wave 3 - Scots who were driven out after the 1745 Jacobite Rising. They moved to the colonies, supported the Loyalists in the American Revolution, and refugeed to Canada after the British lost. Very different people.

Blogger Steb December 15, 2019 3:15 PM  

Rube next Independence movement should be Lonxit - set up London ad an Independent city state, like Singapore. Their votes are just as divergent from England as Scotland's are

Blogger Ransom Smith December 15, 2019 3:40 PM  

Yet they keep voting for the same political parties which keep them addicted to welfare (and deep fried Mars Bars ). How smart is that?
It's highly similar to New England, especially Vermont.
A state that is possibly the whitest in the country, but also more insane than you can imagine.
Gay marriage? Vertmont.
Forced union dues? Vermont.
High taxes across the board? Vertmont.
If we walled New England off as should be done, the probably may fix itself similar to how Scottish Independence would fix England.

Blogger sammibandit December 15, 2019 3:44 PM  

Canadian Scots are Wave 3 - Scots who were driven out after the 1745 Jacobite Rising. They moved to the colonies, supported the Loyalists in the American Revolution, and refugeed to Canada after the British lost. Very different people.

Presumably that's why our military parade traditions are so Scottified? I know the Scottish kilt and kit is the only ethnic garb permitted in ceremony or on parade.

I have a really cool book about how Alberta towns were founded. One was founded up the rail line from a French town because the French town didn't want Scots in it, just to piss off the French who would have to travel through it.

Lots of towns were founded by Scottish postmen or general store owners, and within that group lots of women in 30s era towns owned the towns proper, in case their husbands died.

Blogger upchuckmcduck December 15, 2019 3:44 PM  

Why do the Welsh seem more content under British rule then the Scots or Irish ever were?

Blogger kurt9 December 15, 2019 3:53 PM  

Another reason to let Scotland go is that 75% of Scots are on public assistance.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 15, 2019 4:16 PM  

If welfare/pension/health spending and subsidy from England is so high, it's entirely possible England could cut Scotland loose with 100% of N Sea oil revenue and be money ahead.

Steb wrote:Rube next Independence movement should be Lonxit - set up London ad an Independent city state, like Singapore
The City of London already is.

Blogger Karen took the Kids December 15, 2019 4:25 PM  

*Northern Irish, let's separate the wheat from the chaff of you don't mind.

Blogger andy December 15, 2019 4:42 PM  

I believe in the union, but my feeling is that the momentum lies with those who want to secede. Just like the situation with Britain and Europe, there would be a constant bubbling of resentment and ill feeling, especially if there was the belief that England was maliciously holding Scotland back.
In my opinion, Boris would be smart to let Scotland go on an amicable basis as possible. If it all goes to shit, then the door would be open to them to rejoin the Union on a more equitable basis. If it goes well for them, then maybe it would be a benefit to both the rest of the UK and for Scotland. Scotland gains the right to self determination with all that entails, and England rids itself of a group of Socialists with disproportionate influence on the rest of the UK at little cost to itself.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 15, 2019 4:52 PM  

8. Greg from the Piedmont December 15, 2019 11:57 AM
That was the only way I could explain how a country that had given rise to such a strong race of independent minded people be so left leaning now.



i doubt this.

if nothing else, from the examples of what has become of Germany and the Nordic countries.


as to the Scexit question, one would be hard pressed to make a valid logical argument as to why the UK deserves 'democratic representation' and ought to observe the 'will of the people'
...
and then refuse those very principles and rights to Scotland. Scotland was, after all, an independent nation for FAR longer ( nearly a thousand years ) than it's been a member of the UK.

as to the question of Northern Ireland, the bone in the craw is the Ulster Scots. Ireland proper was already granted it's independence, the UK is defending the peoples in Northern Ireland who were put there by the UK.

Irish who wish to live under Irish rule can certainly choose from the vast majority of the island to live in. heck, there are coastal Irish islands advertising for immigrants from the US, nationalist North Irish could certainly relocate if they wanted.

unless the UK has plans to resettle the North Irish unionists / protestants ( who are THE MAJORITY ) to Scotland and Wales, i don't see why the same 'right of self determination' should not also apply to them, as it applies to Brexit and Scexit. and the North Irish protestants WANT to stay in union.


14. SDaly December 15, 2019 12:03 PM
Scotland was always a thorn in England’s side.


you just had to do that, didn't ye?


33. Andrew Jackson December 15, 2019 12:56 PM
England should invade and wipe out the feminist scum who run Scotland !



the Queen's English are going to wipe out feminism?



63. Doktor Jeep December 15, 2019 2:59 PM
Are all Scots soulless gingers?



nay, some of us are soulless blonds.



73. andy December 15, 2019 4:42 PM
especially if there was the belief that England was maliciously holding Scotland back.


given that England destroyed Scotland's industrial base
...
kinda yeah?

Blogger Robert What? December 15, 2019 5:14 PM  

It's pretty funny. The Scotts want their independence from Britain only to offer it with paws in the air to Brussels.

Blogger Fozzy Bear December 15, 2019 5:17 PM  

Scotland today is the result of centuries of dysgenic pressure. The best and brightest have always left for greener pastures, leaving the dregs behind to wither, leaving the mother country spiritually, mentally, and financially bankrupt. A primary reason I migrated to the USA from Australia was to rejoin my nation - the center of gravity of both the Scottish diaspora and the body of the Church of Christ is in the Carolinas. This is where the true Scotsman is found, our land of milk and honey.

Blogger Johnny December 15, 2019 5:35 PM  

The traditional benefit of a large union was that it was a way of keeping the other predatory empires off your back. That is where our constitution came from really. We needed a more perfect union to deal with the European countries. If that is all over then lots of breakups are practical. Let things spin apart if that is what people want.

Blogger Pseudotsuga December 15, 2019 5:48 PM  

upchuckmcduck wrote:Why do the Welsh seem more content under British rule then the Scots or Irish ever were?
I'd be interested to see some thinking about this, too.

Blogger JamesB.BKK December 15, 2019 5:51 PM  

Scotsmen did give us all those inventions for repairing shoes with duct tape and wire,

Blogger Steve December 15, 2019 5:58 PM  

given that England destroyed Scotland's industrial base

If by "England", you mean "the elected government of the United Kingdom", and by "destroyed" you mean "stopped subsidising", and by "industries" you mean "the formerly successful private firms Labour nationalised with malice aforethought, which were now an unaffordable drain on the Treasury and ruled by openly Marxist trade union thugs who called strikes at the drop of a hat, deposed democratically elected prime ministers on a whim, and forced the country into an electricity-rationed, IMF begging, inflation-riddled, garbage-strewn brown corduroy hellscape that anyone with an ounce of ambition fled from"...

...then yes.

Blogger JamesB.BKK December 15, 2019 6:05 PM  

Mistakes were made. https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/The-Darien-Scheme/

Blogger JamesB.BKK December 15, 2019 6:08 PM  

Union of Scotland, Switzerland, Veneto?

Blogger andy December 15, 2019 6:26 PM  

The left in Britain blames Margaret Thatcher for many of their ills.
Mines closed, Thatcher. Fisheries shut down, Thatcher. Steelworks moved abroad, Thatcher.

Scotlands industries were infected by radical left wing unions, unwilling to budge an inch in the face of economic realities. Instead of a managed decline for industries that were no longer viable, they dug their heels in and assured the destruction of many jobs and livelyhoods.
Britain has still got a large manufacturing base, but it is now mostly a service based economy.

The left are so butthurt about Thatcher that they are still whining about getting their arses kicked by her, some 30 years later.
Don't forget she was Prime Minister for only 11 years some 3 decades ago.
For the left, that could have been last week, so raw is the feeling of being thoroughly beaten.

Scotlands ills don't stem from the English, they stem from a culture steeped in Socialism and all the negativity that brings. They have a massive chip on their shoulder with regards to the English that will only be killed off if they are given the chance to stand on their own two feet.
They have to be forced to confront their failings as a people, as an economy and as a country and made to own their failure. Only then will they have a chance to move on.

Blogger johndoe03526 December 15, 2019 6:40 PM  

IndyRef2 would fail again. Johnson should call their bluff.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) December 15, 2019 6:45 PM  

80. Steve December 15, 2019 5:58 PM
...then yes.



you forgot, "embraced the Communist principle of international free trade".

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 15, 2019 7:36 PM  

Up until now the EU has been against Scottish independence.

Brussels has stated (with one side of it's face anyway) that if Scotland left the UK it would not be grandfathered into the EU as an existing member and would have to apply for membership as an outsider.

Which would complicate matters for the Scotts since they would need among other things a currency and it would be a currency that everyone on Earth knows would be a dead note in few years.

The reason Brussels is against this is simple.

They are secretly terrified that if the Scotts leave the UK, then every ethnicity in Europe from the Basques to the Frisians will be demanding their own independent states.

It would shred the European Union overnight.

Blogger Johnny December 15, 2019 8:06 PM  

I wonder how many people have heard of Tigerton Dells. The place was a crossroads with a few houses. It declared itself independent of the United States. The residents no longer payed taxes, printed their own money, open carry for weapons, violated various laws related to housing, started carrying "constitutional" drivers licenses and so on. Unclear of the details, but they justified their stuff with the Posse Comitatius concept.

Acted out for more than a decade I think before the cops moved in with force. Some are believed to have formed a commune and some others went to jail.

I like the idea myself but I would just as soon avoid the jail time.

Blogger Boaty Bear December 15, 2019 8:52 PM  

They receive (free therefore "excess") resources from England in the form of the Barnett Formula..

Excess resources = unearned income = r selection = Libtards = Scotland today.

Blogger Fargoth December 15, 2019 9:39 PM  

Well yeah the scots are literally the original jews

Blogger JAG December 15, 2019 10:00 PM  

Johnny wrote:I wonder how many people have heard of Tigerton Dells. The place was a crossroads with a few houses. It declared itself independent of the United States. The residents no longer payed taxes, printed their own money, open carry for weapons, violated various laws related to housing, started carrying "constitutional" drivers licenses and so on. Unclear of the details, but they justified their stuff with the Posse Comitatius concept.

Acted out for more than a decade I think before the cops moved in with force. Some are believed to have formed a commune and some others went to jail.

I like the idea myself but I would just as soon avoid the jail time.


There was a similar occurrence in California with the town of Rough and Ready, though they voted to rejoin the Union in just a few months.

Blogger damaris.tighe December 15, 2019 10:23 PM  

Yes, Get their bloc of scottish communist votes out of the English parliament and let the EU be their Daddy.
Classic Tory sentiment & Boris' sense of his legacy is holding them back.

Gloomy Peter Hitchens has been correct all these years: The Tories need to be destroyed to make room for real nationalist parties on the right.

Blogger damaris.tighe December 15, 2019 10:35 PM  

I have heard the SNP say its a policy to unilaterally disarm on the nuclear/weapons and thus bringing about World Peace.

Blogger Joe December 15, 2019 11:33 PM  

@77 Is correct.
The existence of the EU calls into question some old political arrangements.
Catalonia joined Spain to protect itself from France, absent that threat, why not independence?
Ditto, Scotland...etc...

Blogger SciVo December 15, 2019 11:46 PM  

Pseudotsuga wrote:upchuckmcduck wrote:Why do the Welsh seem more content under British rule then the Scots or Irish ever were?

I'd be interested to see some thinking about this, too.


I have wondered about this too. And the best I can come up with is that they're an indigenous people that found they felt safer under English protection than not, because life is dangerous.

Blogger Johnny December 16, 2019 12:53 AM  

>>I have heard the SNP say its a policy to unilaterally disarm on the nuclear/weapons...

It is like really easy to be for disarmament if you happen to not have any nukes. Posturing really. And self important if they think they have a say about it.

Blogger mrpinks December 16, 2019 1:02 AM  

There are so many Muslims and Indians up there now, the window for Scottich Independance via voting is closing... Down here in Australia there are many Scots and Irish running away from their responsibilities and wanting to start over in a new country.

Blogger sammibandit December 16, 2019 1:15 AM  

soulless blonds.

Accurate

Blogger linesy December 16, 2019 1:55 AM  

They will get another 'once in a generation' vote. They will again reject it then go back to demanding another 'once in a generation' vote. Whining about the English is reliable ballot box material, much like guns are to the DNC. They don't really want to 'fix' the problem, just to energize the base.

That the scots continue to vote for Jimmy Krankee (image search required for non brits) means they probably do need the SNP doing unto them long and hard. It was once a centre right nationalist party. It moved leftwards and has ploughed salt into the fields of it's origins in order to get electoral success. Fortunately for the rest of the UK that has come at the expense of the Labour Party.

Blogger map December 16, 2019 1:58 AM  

Steve wrote:If by "England", you mean "the elected government of the United Kingdom", and by "destroyed" you mean "stopped subsidising", and by "industries" you mean "the formerly successful private firms Labour nationalised with malice aforethought, which were now an unaffordable drain on the Treasury

What's truly amazing about the end of the World Wars was how England completely refused to reduce the wartime tax rates. America had the "roaring 20's" because of Cooldige's "return to normalcy" policy that reduced the top income tax rate to 25%...taxes that were triggered on the equivalent of $600,000 a year. Even Germany, after WWII, reduced its taxes and regulations in 1948. The German economy boomed and its economic growth was the envy of the world.

Meanwhile, the wartime tax rates in England were maintained and Labour won...subsequently taking over the "commanding heights" of the economy. The result was England still had sugar rationing in 1955.

To be fair, Winston Churchill was a big believer in these wartime tax rates. Is it any wonder he lost after the war? If it's a choice between the guy who wants 90% tax rates to spend on fighting the Soviets, and the guy who wanys 90% tax rates to spend on the little guy, well, who is the little guy going to vote for? Hence, over time, the over-socialized British economy eventually collapsed.

That's the thing about taxes. The higher the taxes go, the more the people want to have government money spent on them. Why the hell else are they paying all of these taxes?

Blogger wreckage December 16, 2019 2:11 AM  

"I suspect that because the Scottish culture is less capable of generating the material prosperity that the English can..."

Incorrect. Scotland was central to the industrial revolution. Your causality is reversed: free money from the London banking centers has rotted Scotland out, and the "conservatives" insisting on being pro-union has seen lefties take over the political institutions.

Nationalism or GTFO. It is time to unscrew the rogered and exhausted pooch that the dear old Union has become.

Blogger Akulkis December 16, 2019 3:04 AM  

I'm 1/4 Scot via my maternal grandfather. The best way to cure Scotland of their love of socialism is to give them their independence and cut them off from English money. Socialism isn't so fun when you don't have other people's money to vote to yourselves.

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 16, 2019 3:05 AM  

Yes, and the fools still want to vote Left!!! - Every damned Paddy bricklayer in Sydney is a Marxist.

Blogger Akulkis December 16, 2019 3:16 AM  

"I believe that the Scots who stood for liberty and individual responsibility did leave Britain and move to the Americas (which included my ancestors). That was the only way I could explain how a country that had given rise to such a strong race of independent minded people be so left leaning now."

ADD/ADHD people tend to be more individualistic.
ADD/ADHD people tend to be more impulsive.
ADD/ADHD people tend to be the type who make discoveries and create new inventions.

ADD/ADHD people tend to do things like move across an ocean to a land where they know absolutely nobody, and essentially losing all contact with family and friends other than by slow, sailing-ship delivered paper mail.

Before the age of cheap international phone calls, the oceans acted as a very good deterrant from keeping out the socialist minded, because ADD/ADHD doesn't tend to correlate highly with socialism.

The oceans made the U.S. a rather individualistic nation, and made the homeland stock more socialistic-leaning than they were before our ancestors immigrated here.

Blogger Iron Knight December 16, 2019 3:21 AM  

The Iq dif could be because of immigration though right?
London for example is a legimate IQ pit.

Blogger James Jameson December 16, 2019 4:14 AM  

The problem is Tory politicians can't oppose British imperialism in Scotland/NI by default. The full name of their party is the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Blogger Salden December 16, 2019 4:20 AM  

https://twitter.com/BrianNess10/status/1205820367429918723

This twitter summed up the "independence" movement in Kiltland. Filled with Lefties and LARPers. Choice:

>Indy movement in Scotland is a mess, very limp wristed. the number of conflicting beliefs is silly. They love the nationalist imagery, boomers can list every battle against England etc. but at the same time want mass immigration and think anyone can be anything

>The modern indy stuff is a result of white people not being allowed their actual identity so they cling to things that don't matter and don't really represent them so that they can say 'i'm not your average white guy, I'm something cooler'

>People putting their 'Gaelic name' in their twitter bio and the recent weird SNP conference where these hollowed out rootless people tried to speak scots without any authenticity are a couple of examples off the top of my head.

>These people are just drones

Blogger MattHenshaw11 December 16, 2019 4:42 AM  

Truth is though Vox, the silent majority of Scots don't want an independent Scotland.

Blogger John Rockwell December 16, 2019 5:03 AM  

A war requires strong economy. And also ways to fight cost effectively.

That's one of the core tenents of the Art of War. To minimize men and resource expenditure in achieving victory.

Blogger John Rockwell December 16, 2019 5:09 AM  

Whats interesting is that steppe nomadism produces more cost effective soldiers pound for pound compared to agrarian societies.

That and pretty much every male aged from adolescence onward is a warrior.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 16, 2019 5:11 AM  

@SciVo

Wales is the Shire to modern Britain’s Middle Earth, with England’s Tories as Dunedain Rangers?

Blogger Johnny December 16, 2019 8:49 AM  

>>Whats interesting is that steppe nomadism produces more cost effective soldiers pound for pound compared to agrarian societies.

Mobility is the big deal. Way back when, put a man on a horse in an army that knows how to use the mobility and he becomes extremely dangers. In confined areas agrarian types to just fine. Out in the open steppe they never get to close on the horse warrior.

Blogger Iron Spartan December 16, 2019 10:03 AM  

Slippin JImmy wrote:Like the Irish the Scots have a compulsive need to hate someone. Without the pimp hand of England to provide a focus for their hatred they'd on each other at some point.

"It won't last. Brothers and sisters are natural enemies! Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!" Groundskeeper Willie

Blogger bramley December 16, 2019 10:27 AM  

upchuckmcduck wrote:
Why do the Welsh seem more content under British rule then the Scots or Irish ever were?


They aren't really, and there is an independence movement there represented by Plaid Cymru. Wales has quite a divide between North and South, and this shows in the fact Welsh is still a daily spoken language in the North far more than Cardiff and Swansea etc. The native Welsh speakers are much more independence minded and have a very natural distrust of 'incomers', from England especially. But they only make up something less than 30% of the population.

Blogger linesy December 16, 2019 10:51 AM  

Quite true. Virtually no one speaks Gaelic. Hence the BBC have a channel, BBC Alba. I recall the only time I ever watched it was a show about the Highland games, the presenter had to interview all the Scottish participants in English, because he was probably the only Gaelic speaker for a hundred miles.

Blogger linesy December 16, 2019 10:55 AM  

Hence why they should be given a referendum and in the legislation it should state that no more votes can happen for 20 years. It will then strip the SNP of the reliable vote winner it needs, when it is rejected again.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd December 16, 2019 11:41 AM  

Penultimate, Vox? Does that mean you think they'll give Scotland and Ireland the boot, but keep Wales?

Blogger rcocean December 16, 2019 11:44 AM  

Weird how so many of these Left-wing Scots want:

1) mass immigration
2) independence
3) EU domination.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd December 16, 2019 12:32 PM  

Johnny wrote:In confined areas agrarian types to just fine. Out in the open steppe they never get to close on the horse warrior.
Agrarian kids are likely to be bigger, better fed, and have been worked harder so they're stronger. Farm kids who grew up hunting deer and Indians are going to be more than a match for a bunch of scrawny savages.
John Rockwell wrote:That and pretty much every male aged from adolescence onward is a warrior.
Warriors aren't soldiers. The Indians got whipped regularly because they were warriors, and couldn't beat soldiers who had central command and logistics.

Blogger DonReynolds December 16, 2019 12:51 PM  

What? No mention of the 2014 Referendum?
They already had this vote, with all the planets in a straight line, all of the advantages, every concession. They even lowered the voting age from 18 to 16. Yes, even Greta Thunberg could vote. No, I am not joking. Just about anyone was permitted to vote in the 2014 Referendum on Scottish Independence....Commonwealth citizens, EU citizens, everyone was allowed to vote. Labour insisted that Scots who lived throughout the Commonwealth, should also be allowed to vote....another 800,000 voters. That proposal was refused due to the complexity and expense involved.

Well tell us, tell us. How did the vote turn out way back in 2014? The Referendum on Scottish Independence was voted down....55% to 45%.

But this is the EU, which is run by the women. NO does not mean "never". It just means "not now". You have to keep voting until you get it right. (Just keep begging and she will finally submit.) And if the voters reject Independence again, we can vote on it again in another five years.

Personally, I smell a compromise deal. Boris gave in to yet another Scottish vote on Independence (long a Leftist Labour priority) in return for no more nonsense about a Second Brexit vote. Not a bad compromise, really. Maybe my Scotish relatives will vote for Independence so they can gift the country immediately to the EU. If that is what the SNP wants, they can all be fitted for collars this afternoon, while the UK moves ahead with Brexit. The real question is not Scotland, but Northern Ireland, as always.

Blogger plishman December 16, 2019 1:58 PM  

Maybe this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavelkind#Gavelkind_in_Wales

Blogger James Jameson December 16, 2019 8:56 PM  

The majority of Scots voted for independence. They only lost because of immigrant (mostly English) votes.

Blogger DonReynolds December 16, 2019 11:54 PM  

The SNP are putting a curse on the Independence vote for Scotland, promising not Independence, but a change of Masters from London to Brussels. That may queer the vote for Independence yet again, since it is not Independence they offer at all.

Blogger A guy in a dusty attic December 17, 2019 5:11 AM  

The problem with the Scots political outlook stems from the culture, I would argue that the following explanation also pertains to the Chinese(for they are remarkably similar) as a side note before I begin...the initial success of Hong Kong was due to Scottish Leadership, why because they understood the Chinese on a deep level.

The Scots are by nature inwardly focused people. This is evident in their music. They practice nine notes repeatedly on the bagpipes with flawless precision hardly glancing around to see if there is anything else.

They worry about family, friends neighbours too much often sacrificing themselves and sanity for stupid obsessions. If someone just hit them guided them around Britain and gave them a few economics classes they would be ok.

Blogger Troushers December 18, 2019 11:34 AM  

I firmly believe (as a Scot myself) that the Scots left-wing bias are the result of not being forced to live with the consequences of left-wing governance, thanks to English and Wales votes, and English subsidy for Scots expenditure.

Boris should demand a renegotiation of the Barnett formula, a disgraceful fudge which preserves the Scottish subsidy, to force the SNP to argue for English subsidy, even as they claim not to need it through independence.

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