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Sunday, December 01, 2019

The great papal debate

I'm pleased to be able to announce that The Kurgan and Jay Dyer will be debating, among other things, in the near future. Jay threw down the gauntlet and The Kurgan accepted on the Darkstream tonight. More to come after we set things up tomorrow. Should be very interesting!

Of course, some of Jay's gamma fans can't control themselves. This comment from a recent Jay Dyer tweet was amusing.
Vox banned me in the chat for asking if he would debate jay personally, Vox always runs away when challenged by someone more educated than him.
Yeah, so, about that. Anyhow, I would no more debate anyone about the intricacies of Roman Catholic Church law and doctrine than I would debate them about the ritually correct way to offer sacrifices to Tezcatlipoca and Xipe Totec. I simply don't possess the relevant information to even begin discussing the subject.

It's also a bit remarkable to see how many of these semi-illiterate midwits believe that I am going to watch a freaking video or listen to a talk. If someone can't bother to write a book on the subject, or at least write out their complete argument in full, I'm not going to bother to spend any time analyzing it. There is no need, because their speech, whatever it might happen to be, is fundamentally ephemeral.

UPDATE: The debate will go however it goes, of course, but these tweets don't appear to bode well.
Vox Day says if you don’t write a book on the topic in question, you’re not worth listening to - as he declares me a loser of a debate he didn’t listen to. LOL  Is this guy for real?

Vox day declined a debate but passed on the challenge to the nobody rip-off Vox day, the kurgan. Lol.

Kurgan - 0 public debates
-to directly debating live for 7-10k people on the Ralph retort LoL
While I have no dog in this particular hunt, I have to admit that I don't have a lot of confidence in anyone who believes "LOL" is a form of punctuation.

Labels: ,

141 Comments:

Blogger Unknown December 01, 2019 8:46 PM  

If you're not going to debate Jay, why are you involved?

Blogger Shadow Banisher December 01, 2019 8:49 PM  

Very much looking forward to this.

Something will come of it.

Blogger VD December 01, 2019 8:51 PM  

If you're not going to debate Jay, why are you involved?

I may not be. I'm just helping them set things up because both of them are in touch with me.

Blogger Tanjil Bren December 01, 2019 8:51 PM  

This will be great!

Blogger Unknown December 01, 2019 9:04 PM  

Jay's fans and Kurgan fans and the occasional gamma are trying to put wedges between VD and these guys. Vox can be friends with anyone he wants. He friendly to Kurgan and Jay and I don't see why Jay's gamma fans feel the need for Vox to debate Jay specifically. (yes I am Orthodox there are quite a few young zoomer fans of Jay who don't know how to control themselves). Lets drop the drama and just have a good debate :)

Blogger Attempted Dialectic December 01, 2019 9:05 PM  

Thank you for setting this into motion Vox. I have been hoping this debate would happen for a long time.

Blogger Zaklog the Great December 01, 2019 9:07 PM  

Vox always runs away when challenged by someone more educated than him.

He’s not entirely wrong. Vox freely admits that he doesn’t know much about this subject. But refusing to engage in debate on a subject you are not informed on is not cowardice, but humility & good sense.

Blogger Dad29 December 01, 2019 9:10 PM  

Saw Kurgan's vid a couple posts down. Nope.

Blogger Fred December 01, 2019 9:11 PM  

Yeah Vox especially since RC doctrine is a direct spawn of Satan. It exists thanks to the magic of Constantine combining Christianity with pageant, black magic paganism.
I wouldnt waste your time with them unless they agree that the Apocrypha in their entirety is not Scripture and therefore not a basis or object of debate. Most of RC heresies spawn from there(including purgatory, Mary worship, etc).

Blogger VD December 01, 2019 9:12 PM  

If I am wrong and Jay able to demonstrate that the Kurgan's criticisms are completely incorrect, I won't hesitate to say as much.

I wonder how many of Jay's fans will be willing to say the same if the reverse is true?

Blogger Shane Bradman December 01, 2019 9:15 PM  

Fred, stop talking about Catholicism. You have literally no idea about anything and you've been listening to very obvious lies.

Blogger VD December 01, 2019 9:15 PM  

Drop it, Fred. No one asked for your opinion.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 01, 2019 9:18 PM  

A lot of the core debate between the Catholic church and the Orthodox church comes from whether you view the Orthodox church as schismatic or not. I expect that to have a minor focus in the debate, with the majority being The Kurgan citing Canon Law and Dyer quoting Reformationists.

Blogger Kraemer December 01, 2019 9:26 PM  

The Catholic-Ortho difference is basically just the "filio que" thing right? Or is there other stuff?

Blogger Weouro December 01, 2019 9:27 PM  

Suggested title: "Tradfights: a cause for concern"

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 01, 2019 9:31 PM  

Weird - I can't comment on Blogspot using my Google account with the shields still up on Brave.

Anyhow, Trump is a better President than Lincoln because he wouldn't start a war that would kill 6% of the American population (nearly as big a proportion as the Romans lost to Carthage) to stop California from seceding. There are things one can reasonably admire Lincoln for - his conduct in office in the leadup to and during the Civil War are (for the most part) not among them.

I'm thankful for many things this year - among them is that Kurt Schlicter was forced to change the plot of his 2nd Kelly Turnbull novel (which I've only gotten to recently) because Hillary lost the 2016 election.

VD - do you think the damage the supposedly-apolitical bureaucracy we call the Deep State has done to itself trying to fight Trump is permanent? Or is it still possible for them to recapture the nominal level of public trust they had before? Because I think anyone who was still on the fence before was broken by Ep**ein's murder.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 01, 2019 9:34 PM  

@14. There was a metric tonne of political issues. The theological divide was in the background during the Great Schism. Nowadays, there has been 1000 years of difference between the churches so there are some genuine theological differences, Filioque being one of many.

Blogger Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) December 01, 2019 9:37 PM  

@14 A lot more stuff. One of the things Dyer mentions often is the Eastern view of the Essence-Energies distinction vs the Catholic view of Divine Simplicity. There's also the issue of the Papacy, which is more important that the filioque. If it was just the filioque they would have unified a long time ago.

It would be interesting to hear a historical and political rather than theological take on the East-West split. I don't think emperors and statesmen make or break political alliances because of theological agreements and disagreements.

I like all three of these guys and respect their intelligence. Vox is right, this debate could be book-worthy. I listened to a previous debate between Jay Dyer and Eric Ybarra on Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and I have to say it didn't go well for Ybarra.

Blogger Beau December 01, 2019 9:45 PM  

One of the best features of this blog is the ability to debate ideas. That the Kurgan and Jay Dyer are up next I hope is instructive to newer members of the community how to enter the lists and fight the good fight. I expect the dialectic to be illuminating.

Blogger jeffinjapan December 01, 2019 9:49 PM  

There’s other stuff but that’s a big one.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch December 01, 2019 9:50 PM  

If someone can't bother to write a book on the subject, or at least write out their complete argument in full...

I should write a book and market it to one person. That'd actually be fun in a kind of way.

Wish I had more time to follow through with that.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 01, 2019 9:52 PM  

Unknown wrote:Jay's fans and Kurgan fans and the occasional gamma are trying to put wedges between VD and these guys. Vox can be friends with anyone he wants. He friendly to Kurgan and Jay and I don't see why Jay's gamma fans feel the need for Vox to debate Jay specifically. (yes I am Orthodox there are quite a few young zoomer fans of Jay who don't know how to control themselves). Lets drop the drama and just have a good debate :)

I have noticed this in the past with Jay's fans. They went after RockingMrE after Jay Dyer spent three hours in a livestream disputing RockingMrE's views on the Holy Trinity.

The thing that really irked me was that RockingMrE is a new convert (about a year or so at the time of his video and Jay's) and new converts need guidance and grace, not trolling and lectures.

Jay Dyer strikes me as a Bible lawyer. He claims to have been raised in the Baptist Church, converted to Catholicism when the Baptists couldn't answer some fundamental questions he had, and then converted to Orthodox when Catholics couldn't answer questions he had. My take on this is that he's thinking about matters of salvation too hard and was too focused on find the one, true church.

This seems to indicate a lack of wisdom on his part. Not knowledge, just wisdom.

Still though, if he truly believes in Jesus, then he is a brother in Christ, regardless of his walk.

Blogger James Lovebirch December 01, 2019 9:52 PM  

I'll be looking forward to this.

I think a moderator and some degree of structure might be in order. Kurgan has been VERY heated in his videos on this subject, and Jay also gets pretty heated during debates.

Blogger Shadow Banisher December 01, 2019 9:55 PM  

It's true. And I could see them both doing very well in a moderated debate.

Blogger Beau December 01, 2019 10:01 PM  

Still though, if he truly believes in Jesus, then he is a brother in Christ, regardless of his walk.

Yes.

Blogger jeffinjapan December 01, 2019 10:09 PM  

I like both Vox and Jay so I would hate to see this get ugly. While Jay was live-streaming earlier some in the audience kept saying Vox called Jay out and it spiraled from there.

Blogger Chippewa December 01, 2019 10:12 PM  

I only hope that serious theological ground is broken with this debate, and that both men conduct and hold themselves to the highest standard.

Blogger The Depolrable Podunk Ken Ramsey December 01, 2019 10:15 PM  

This should be great. I hope it doesn't get bogged down in Canon Law or the like where it gets a little esoteric. It's at this point that kings would say, "Oh to hell with this! Let's have a Trial By Combat!"

Blogger Weouro December 01, 2019 10:18 PM  

I thought they were both Catholics. This seems like a strange thing to debate since neither of them recognize the authority of the pope.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 01, 2019 10:21 PM  

@29. The Kurgan does recognise the authority of the Pope, but he doesn't think Francis is a legitimate Pope. You have to remember that he is still a Catholic.

Blogger Critias December 01, 2019 10:21 PM  

I agree with the calls for a moderator, just to calm things down if they get too hot.

Blogger jeffinjapan December 01, 2019 10:35 PM  

Jay is Eastern Orthodox although he was a Roman Catholic for many years. Jay will rightly point out the retarded belief that some Catholics have in that they can determine the legitimacy of a pope.

Blogger Joe Smith December 01, 2019 10:38 PM  

I've seen Jay talk about doctrine and he's clearly extremely knowledgeable on the topic. I have not seen The Kurgan talk about RC doctrine so I don't know what his position is exactly (other than being Catholic obviously). I'm interested to see it though. Any time I've seen Jay talk to a RC in the past the guy's been a total retard that doesn't apparently know anything about the subject. I imagine this will be better.

Blogger Unknownsailor December 01, 2019 10:40 PM  

"If someone can't bother to write a book on the subject, or at least write out their complete argument in full, I'm not going to bother to spend any time analyzing it. There is no need, because their speech, whatever it might happen to be, is fundamentally ephemeral."

I agree wholeheartedly, I absorb information much faster by reading than listening. I understand the desire for some to watch a face to face debate, but not everyone does. I am one of those who do not.

Blogger RandyB December 01, 2019 10:45 PM  

The Filioque predated the Great Schism, and was cited in the recently-rescinded excommunications, as were a couple of other theological differences.

The political differences were definitely the big driver.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 01, 2019 11:05 PM  

Watching this debate could be a learning experience. For a lot of people, the perception of the problems in the Catholic church don't get far beyond "bad popes and child molesters". I will watch it.
I would suggest disabling chat so that the gammas are kept out of it.

Blogger Brick Hardslab December 01, 2019 11:17 PM  

Is this the kurgan that comments here?

Did he write a book?

Blogger weka December 01, 2019 11:19 PM  

@Shane. I think almost everyone would agree this pope is over the heretic line.

The question of if Apostolic succession is valid, and if the Roman bishop has primacy is more contentious.

Blogger Jose Miguel December 01, 2019 11:23 PM  

@Kraemer

There is a lot of other stuff, the filioque issue happens to touch many of those differences at the same time, including the role and authority of the Pope and the bishops of the local Churches, theology of the Holy Spirit, Hellenic philosophy and its role in understanding God, and the Creed itself obviously.

While the Orthodox and Trad Catholics may appear quite the same on the surface to most Protestants, when it comes to theology, views on salvation, the nature of heaven, nature of man, nature of God, etc. Catholicism and most Protestant denominations have far, far more in common with each other than either have with the Orthodox.

Blogger Wario's Mart December 01, 2019 11:23 PM  

Fr Rippeger said the Church should reenforce its prohibition on laity debating theology.

I can understand why.

There are currently two popes, not one. Start from there.

Blogger Johnny December 01, 2019 11:23 PM  

@34
>>I absorb information much faster by reading than listening.

Most of us can read considerably faster than we can hear. If you don't need the visuals, script is better.

Blogger Julian Assad December 01, 2019 11:30 PM  

If a pope is a heretic I don't think it is retarded to determine them illegitimate. But that's what Jay is claiming in order to convince dissident Catholics they should become Orthodox.

Blogger Beau December 01, 2019 11:39 PM  

While the Orthodox and Trad Catholics may appear quite the same on the surface to most Protestants, when it comes to theology, views on salvation, the nature of heaven, nature of man, nature of God, etc. Catholicism and most Protestant denominations have far, far more in common with each other than either have with the Orthodox.

Which is why this debate may be a boon to the Order of Saint Possenti, examining what we hold together and where we differ.

Blogger Thomas W. December 01, 2019 11:40 PM  

I'd buy a transcript of this debate if you published it

Blogger Shane Bradman December 01, 2019 11:41 PM  

Weka, it's not contentious if the Bishop of Rome has primacy. The Orthodox Church agreed that he has primacy.

Blogger Julian Assad December 01, 2019 11:46 PM  

Vox has said he himself only wants to do written debates now. It is clear the oral format has been chosen in this case for the added entertainment value.

Blogger NewTunesForOldLogos December 01, 2019 11:51 PM  

Jeff, if the pope is preaching heresy and practicing idolatry, then he probably isn’t Christian, and if he isn’t Christian, then he’s probably not a legitimate pope. There’s room for discussion about whethers and wherefores, but there’s enough there that it’s unwise to dismiss it as retarded.

Blogger NewTunesForOldLogos December 01, 2019 11:54 PM  

Yes, and several. Here’s the one that I’ve read: BELIEVE! REAL CHRISTIANITY... https://www.amazon.com/dp/1728690331?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

His writing style is very conversational, and the book itself is short.

Blogger James Lovebirch December 01, 2019 11:57 PM  

@45

But to the Orthodox that primacy was a kind of respect, it isn't a license to unilaterally govern the Bishops of other regions. From the Eastern perspective, Rome's doctrine had continually evolved in the preceding centuries, which includes this idea that it had authority and supremacy over the whole church: it was excommunicated because it ceased to be Orthodox.

Blogger Jose Miguel December 02, 2019 12:02 AM  

@Beau

That would be good fruit indeed that I will pray for. I have family in all three Christian traditions, it was much fun last Christmas pointing out to the two diehard Catholic and Evangelical "debaters" that they are both the same to me.

Blogger Julian Assad December 02, 2019 12:04 AM  

After this I hope Big Bear agrees to a debate on globe earth, ideally with someone experienced in astronomy/physics. He has a lot of questions that are unanswerable by laymen. One with Kurgan would be interesting, but given the only counterargument I've seen from him is a spiel about light refraction, I don't think he has enough knowledge.

Blogger Beau December 02, 2019 12:08 AM  

I think this thread will become one of the most memorable. Beside the original question we have another great question worthy of examination, that between Lazarus and Shane Bradman, the role and history of hierarchy with the Body of Christ in salvation.

Blogger Jill in StL December 02, 2019 12:16 AM  

I am not Catholic and have very little knowledge about how things work either way, Orthodox or Catholic, but I am very much interested in this debate because I enjoy The Kurgan's videos very much and how passionate he is on this subject. That said, I am NOT a fan of the current "Faux Pope", as I call him - I think he is a globalist and not even a Christian at this point.

Blogger S1AL December 02, 2019 12:22 AM  

"But to the Orthodox that primacy was a kind of respect, it isn't a license to unilaterally govern the Bishops of other regions."

My outsider perspective, after studying the issue, is that this was the fundamental issue that split East and West. Cultural differences, political differences, and the Filioque clause were more immediate, but at the heart of the issue is the question of whether ecumenical authority resides with the Bishop of Rome.

My observation is that the various Orthodox will *never* yield on this point.

Blogger Weouro December 02, 2019 12:34 AM  

I think Pope Francis is the Pope, but it wont bother me if he ultimately isnt. Catholicism is mainly about receiving the sacraments and the grace they impart, not about discursive lessons from the Vatican typewriter.

Blogger cyrus83 December 02, 2019 12:45 AM  

Filioque is an issue, although probably not really a key one, since the Latin reason for inserting the word has to do with the shades of meaning of the Latin verb "procedit" that don't exist with the original Greek verb at that spot in the Creed. The Catholic addition is only to the Latin text and vernacular translations based on it; when using the Greek text, no mention of the Son is made in that clause.

The big sticking point is the Roman Primacy and exactly what form and role it's supposed to have. Bergoglio is bound to be tied up in that because his public scandals demand an answer of how to reconcile him with previously stated doctrine. That probably descends into canon law, anti-popes, the last time the Western church had a "who is the pope?" issue, and other theological details.

The debate sounds like it should be interesting.

Blogger wreckage December 02, 2019 1:10 AM  

Kurgan's video was a pretty decent clarification of some stuff Protestant me didn't at ALL understand about the specific seat of authority within Catholicism.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 02, 2019 1:10 AM  

@57. You have the right mindset. Ultimately, we're not big enough to be involved in the top levels of the Church as an organisation. If we concern ourselves with the micro instead of the macro we will be much more fulfilled. Participate in your local church community and live a good Catholic life as best you can.

Blogger Dan in Georgia December 02, 2019 1:52 AM  

swiftfoxmark2 wrote:The thing that really irked me was that RockingMrE is a new convert (about a year or so at the time of his video and Jay's) and new converts need guidance and grace, not trolling and lectures.

MrE grew up Greek Orthodox. He spent most of his adult life away from the church and has since returned. Hope this helps.

Blogger Dan in Georgia December 02, 2019 1:59 AM  

jeffinjapan wrote:Jay is Eastern Orthodox although he was a Roman Catholic for many years. Jay will rightly point out the retarded belief that some Catholics have in that they can determine the legitimacy of a pope.

"Is the pope catholic?" used to be said to point out the obvious. Now, it's a legitimate question. The Kurgan is entirely right to question the legitimacy of the so called Pope. I tend to agree with Kurgan's point that there have been many anti-popes over the centuries and that we currently have an imposter running the Vatican. I also agree that we haven't had a legitimate pope since 1958.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 02, 2019 2:02 AM  

Shane, the fact that the hierarchy is preaching shit that sounds nice but is contrary to Christ presents some challenge to your proposition.

Blogger James Lovebirch December 02, 2019 2:12 AM  

@56

It's something that many Catholics understandably wouldn't like to consider, but the convergence, degradation and heresy at the top of the Catholic Church over the last 70 years demonstrates that the Eastern Orthodox structure with decentralized authority was the right choice, that Jesus didn't call for a church that could have an anti-pope. The Kurgan is right to reject the Pope, but I don't think the solution is to create a new schismatic sect, it's to begin to consider that the Catholic Church may have been the side that was wrong in the split between East and West. I hope the Kurgan will not be too stubborn to process the EO worldview and begin to see the merits.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums December 02, 2019 2:17 AM  

Whomever loses doesn't get to celebrate Christmas and the winner gets to celebrate twice. This includes the audience.

Unknown wrote:Jay's fans and Kurgan fans and the occasional gamma are trying to put wedges between VD and these guys.

In Jay's case he created an audience by accepting any debate challenge from literally anyone, even on topics he had no interest in. Kurgan seems to be doing the same thing so he shouldn't complain. Jay would never have accepted a debate if VD didn't get involved.

In the aftermath, no matter who wins, the gamma supporters will declare victory which in of itself would make a great segue into that gamma talk JD and VD were planning to have.

Blogger Rickaby007 December 02, 2019 2:20 AM  

>UPDATE: The debate will go however it goes, of course, but this tweet doesn't appear to bode well.

Jay is scared.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 02, 2019 2:21 AM  

"All Church hierarchies are frauds."

No. Older brothers take care of their younger siblings. That is hierarchical and certainly not fraud. The Church should work the same way.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums December 02, 2019 2:29 AM  

Rickaby007 wrote:>UPDATE: The debate will go however it goes, of course, but this tweet doesn't appear to bode well.

Jay is scared.


Pre-fight smack-talk. This is not C-SPAN, this is:
Kurgan v. Dyer - moderated by The Supreme Dark Lord

Blogger Shane Bradman December 02, 2019 3:16 AM  

@65. That's incorrect. The Catholic Church was tremendously successful for hundreds of years after the Great Schism. The current dilemma does not invalidate the hundreds of years of crushing that the Catholic Church was doing while the Orthodox Church stagnated. With any hierarchical structure, there are peaks and troughs as far as success is concerned. We are in a trough at the moment and there is reason to believe there will be a peak in the future. The Orthodox Church's flatter hierarchical structure worked against it because they could not all agree to any strategies, which meant that they were not converting anyone.
The Orthodox Church has its merits when it comes to understanding the importance of culture, but this was no different than the Catholic understanding a hundred years ago. The solution is not to run away from the Catholic Church and let the problems get worse, it is to reclaim the Catholic Church from evil infiltrators. Think in the long term. A bad 70 years is a bad 70 years, but it doesn't mean we should concede the next 70.

Blogger NRx December 02, 2019 3:19 AM  

One thing people all around get very wrong on the Papacy is that in practice Francis is NOT our enemy, Francis just exposes the true nature of the Vatican.

The Vatican has always been hostile to Westphalian nationalism, and Pope John Paul II (a far more evil man than Francis) was probably the 1st prominent individual to openly advocate for open borders (I know the national suicide 1965 immigration act passed before John Paul II but the backers of the 1965 act had to lie about it and say it wasn't open borders and wouldn't much change the ethnic composition of the United States).

Francis by being so openly a globalist shitlib has destroyed the Vatican's soft power, John Paul II would have SUCCESSFULLY sabotaged Trump's election. Nobody listens to Francis though, I hope Francis is pope forever.

Blogger wreckage December 02, 2019 3:24 AM  

Well, The Kurgan seemed to pretty thoroughly, and with clear internal consistency, rebut what I am assuming were Jay's arguments.

It's interesting to see people saying Protestantism is a branch of Catholicism. I would say there's too much cultural drift for reconciliation, but that's essentially true. I would posit that Catholicism and the western Reformed and Protestant churches are clearly an essentially internal division within a single tradition. This is why I accept the idea of the Church Invisible, although The Kurgan clearly does not.

Blogger wreckage December 02, 2019 3:27 AM  

@43 Beau, would you mind terribly reminding me of the St Possenti email? I dithered and now cannot dig it up.

Blogger Beau December 02, 2019 3:28 AM  

orderofsaintpossenti(at)gmail.com

Blogger NRx December 02, 2019 3:30 AM  

"That's incorrect. The Catholic Church was tremendously successful for hundreds of years after the Great Schism. The current dilemma does not invalidate the hundreds of years of crushing that the Catholic Church was doing while the Orthodox Church stagnated."

The Orthodox Church "stagnated" because both Byzantium and later early Russia were both on the Islamic front. Among the Catholic world only Spain was directly on the frontlines.

The modern Papacy originated with Gregory VII's claims in Dictatus Papae to be beyond all secular authority AND having supremacy over all secular authority. But this is heresy by the Catholic Church's own standards.

There was a "christian" movement during the reign of Constantine the Great that among other things had a rallying cry that said "what has the Emperor to do with the Church" it became known officially to the Catholic Church as "The Donatist Heresy". If it was heresy in Constantine's time surely it was heresy in Gregory's time.

Blogger Beau December 02, 2019 3:37 AM  

If anyone Orthodox can assist me, I'm looking for a woman acknowledged by the Orthodox and perhaps RC as a saint. A woman of purity, piety, perhaps a mom, someone obscure, just lived an exemplary, beautiful, quiet life. Any nominations?

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( the British Royals are Lizard People. don't deny the IckeFLScience! ) December 02, 2019 3:40 AM  

18. Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) December 01, 2019 9:37 PM
There's also the issue of the Papacy


that's funny.

in his video, Kurgan asserted that the Pope was "A bishop just like any other bishop" ~14 minutes.

now, i only attended a Catholic school for the 7th and 8th grades
...
but i'm pretty damn sure that there's not a single nun or priest or parishioner i've ever met who would agree with that assertion.

Kurgan likes to say that Dyer is stupid ( and hey, maybe he is, he doesn't seem to be covering himself in glory with the quoted tweets ) and a liar
BECAUSE
Dyer "fails to understand canon law" ... which Kurgan claims means that the Papacy has only been held by anti-popes since Vatican 2.

ummm.

it seems to me that pretty much every important part of the Catholic Church / Vatican disagree with the Kurgan.

doesn't the same logic necessarily apply to all of them as well? aren't they necessarily "stupid and liars" on the same basis by which you accuse Dyer, for failing to acknowledge the "obvious" apostasy of every pope for the last +50 years?

and keep in mind, we're including Crazy Eyes ( claims Benedict is licit but that Bergoglio is illicit ... even though it was Benedict's intent to "fundamentally transform" the papacy ) and the estimable Mr. John C. Wright ( who was defending Bergoglio the last time i noticed him say anything ) amongst the Dyer group here.

i would agree with 'foolish' or 'willfully blind'. and perhaps you don't see much difference with the words which Kurgan chooses. but i have a hard time considering Barnhardt and Wright "stupid".

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 02, 2019 3:42 AM  

I remind all commenters, no denominational sniping. If your comment is gone, it is because I considered it to be so, or oppositional response to same.

Blogger Gregory the Great December 02, 2019 3:42 AM  

Which stadium will the debate be in?

Blogger Monotonous Languor December 02, 2019 3:49 AM  

Kurgan's position is that all Popes since Vatican II are in a state of sedeprivation. But that doesn't really create any basis for saying that this latest Pope Francis is far more of an apostate than the prior four. Not only is that obviously true, but there has to be some kind of canonical rationale to clearly differentiate this Pope's monstrous defection from Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 02, 2019 3:59 AM  

@77. If you take the position that all Popes since V2 have been antipopes, there is not distinction between which is more of a heretic than another. Ratzinger was an architect of V2, Francis is a disciple. The groups saying that Francis is a fake Pope but that Ratzinger is the true Pope are wrong and don't know what they're talking about when it comes to V2. My position, and the position of many Catholics, is that Francis, like his post-V2 predecessors, is a legitimate Pope, but he's a very bad Pope and should be replaced as soon as possible.

Blogger Ranger December 02, 2019 4:11 AM  

If, according to the Catholic Church, the Pope is just a bishop, Thomas More died for nothing.
I trust More's knowledge of Canon Law more than the Kurgan's

Blogger Ranger December 02, 2019 4:15 AM  

To add: In the "A man for all seasons" movie there is a specific scene about the authority of the Pope, or "the Bishop of Rome".

Blogger Scuzzaman December 02, 2019 4:36 AM  

It reminds me strongly of the point that every administration since Lincoln (or whatever point in time you choose) has been constitutionally invalid.

It’s true but in practical terms irrelevant.

So you say the pope’s not a true Christian? Yeah, and? He’s still the pope. Still exercising all the authority of the office, still recognised as such by the majority of insiders and outsiders. Just like every lying thieving murdering President since Lincoln.

About the only thing a Protestant could say is, we know.

Blogger ScottC December 02, 2019 4:38 AM  

Vox, I know you don't like to watch videos, but if you or anyone else wants to see the deceptive character of Jay Dyer and his false and heretical doctrines, watch the first 10 minutes of this video by a sedevacantist group:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLOQUnw-FY&t=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLOQUnw-FY&t=

Blogger Honingbij December 02, 2019 4:55 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Rek. December 02, 2019 5:14 AM  

I hope the issue of nationalism and identity within the Catholic and Orthodox Church will be addressed. I like a good dose (too much maybe) of Ethnos with my Logos.

Blogger xavier December 02, 2019 5:15 AM  

Will this debate be available to the public or for subscribers only?

Thanks

Blogger Duke Norfolk December 02, 2019 5:20 AM  

Julian Assad wrote:Vox has said he himself only wants to do written debates now. It is clear the oral format has been chosen in this case for the added entertainment value.

Yes, and this is why I have no interest in watching/listening. Just about all (maybe all) verbal debates end up being rhetorical contests and don't do well at revealing the truth.

People who like/love drama and conflict love that. I dislike it, to put it mildly. And ultimately I think they're both wrong, and so don't care how it comes out regardless. But that's just me.

Blogger Wolfman December 02, 2019 5:47 AM  

Forget the kraken. Release the Kurgan!

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums December 02, 2019 5:49 AM  

Kurgan - 0 public debates
-to directly debating live for 7-10k people on the Ralph retort LoL


Waitminute, it's gonna be held on the Ralph Retort?
That's become a gamma hive since Vox and Jay were on. Those people will ruin it even before it starts.

Blogger Lovekraft December 02, 2019 5:51 AM  

Pope Francis' rise was during the reign of Obama. Prior Pope, Benedict, gave speeches condeming Islam's barabarism. So Obama and his cabal had to replace him with an open-borders South American radical.

Erdogan and other oil-rich nations also had a major hand in passing on Africa/Middle East's problems to us

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei December 02, 2019 6:19 AM  

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Blogger Gregory the Great December 02, 2019 6:20 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei December 02, 2019 6:20 AM  

Anyone with "comedian" near the top of their Twitter bio is extremely suspect to begin with, but to follow shortly thereafter with "academically published"? The air is rank with the pong of clusterfark.

By the way sumthin', why the "academically" qualifier to "published"? Is that like the vanity press but for intamalektshualls?

Blogger Gregory the Great December 02, 2019 6:20 AM  

The Kurgan could have called him a liar and a moron slightly less often. Certainly in the debate this will rightfully be regarded as too rethorical.

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira December 02, 2019 6:36 AM  

Ok, Gay Dyer.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 02, 2019 7:08 AM  

Jay has claimed that Vox believes the Kurgen had destroyed Jay's arguments, which is blatantly untrue.

Blogger wreckage December 02, 2019 7:13 AM  

@93 but at least he only called him a Protestant twice!

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums December 02, 2019 7:18 AM  

swiftfoxmark2 wrote:Jay has claimed that Vox believes the Kurgen had destroyed Jay's arguments, which is blatantly untrue.

"Speaking of The Kurgan's channel, his methodical destruction of Jay Dyer's criticism of the Roman Catholic Church will likely be more than a little familiar to anyone who has read one of my systematic critiques."

Blogger Michael D. December 02, 2019 7:20 AM  

Same. Dyer needs to be exposed for a fraud, and he is possibly something even worse. The channel VathicanCatholic did a video claiming that Dyer was heavily into Kabbalah and psychedelics, using only Dyer's own comments (some of which he tried to wipe off internet) for proof.

Blogger Servant December 02, 2019 7:26 AM  

Eastern orthodoxy for not slav and Greek people is larping.

The church, it's organization, and how it conducts itself is found in acts and some of the letters. The Bible itself says it is complete and anything beyond given the weight of scripture is damnable. Catholics problem is the false binary. It's Catholicism or super fun rockband church. That's ridiculous. It's the church in acts.

I can't believe I'm defending the apocrypha but it's mainly history books. The reason Luther excised them was they didn't seem to have any spiritual weight. The purgatory is an ex cathedra statement by a Pope I believe. Mary worship comes from long tradition, and the formalizing of the belief that the saints intercede on our behalf by a council. The errors compound on each other and turn into heresy. Neither is sourced in scripture or the apocrypha.

Blogger wreckage December 02, 2019 7:29 AM  

@97 The Kurgan definitely did provide a very systematic rebuttal to a number of Dyer arguments. Whether those were key arguments, I can't say; and of course it might be that someone "inside" the Catholic/Orthodox fight might not consider the rebuttals valid.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 02, 2019 7:41 AM  

"Mary worship comes from long tradition, and the formalizing of the belief that the saints intercede on our behalf by a council."
There is no Mary worship in the Catholic church. Claiming so is as ridiculous as claiming protestants worship guitars because most churches feature some degree of guitar music.

Blogger Jose Miguel December 02, 2019 7:42 AM  

@Beau

St Theosebia, who in the fourth century was what Mother Theresa purportedly was like.

Her mother, St Emilia, had ten children. Two of her sons had massive impacts on Orthodoxy as a whole, equivalent to the Wesley brothers' mother's impact on AngloSaxon history.

St Nino, a very simple girl for sure although she did not remain obscure as God used her to bring Georgia into the Church.

More obscure to me would be St Apphia. She was the wife of one of the seventy that Christ sent out. She supported her husband as he preached the gospel, and was martyred alongside him by Nero. She was very quite, playing the faithful helpmeet to her husband's public preaching of the gospel. A woman worth more than rubies for sure.

Blogger John Regan December 02, 2019 7:45 AM  

It's an interesting subject, and should make for an interesting debate. OTOH, speaking for myself, I'll truly worry about whether the pope is a heretic when someone makes me a cardinal. Short of that it seems something that I both: a) can't do anything about; and b) is pretty far removed from things I can do.

Blogger Lazarus December 02, 2019 7:51 AM  

Beau wrote:I think this thread will become one of the most memorable. Beside the original question we have another great question worthy of examination, that between Lazarus and Shane Bradman, the role and history of hierarchy with the Body of Christ in salvation.



Somehow I don't think that will happen. My comment seems to have been nuked as I cannot find it with CTL F nor any related Shane Bradman comments.

Blogger Rattlesnake_Kid December 02, 2019 8:12 AM  

I echo the preference for written rather than oral debate. Perhaps written for a round two? Video appetizer for the average man and to allow either side to hone better arguments for the decisive round.

Also, that people can't, or won't, distinguish between reverence and worship is strange to me. None of the Catholics or Orthodox I know worship Mary or the Saints, but the Protestants I know believe they do with rigid conviction. To the point that I have had exchanges that boiled down to; "I do not worship Mary." . . . "Yes you do."

Blogger The Kurgan December 02, 2019 8:25 AM  

@86 - I agree. If the debate is recorded (which I will insist on) I'll happily dissect it in writing too later. I also will ask that a moderation is put in place to ensure no emotional outbursts and interruptions. Hopefully Ralph will have the required tech to do this.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums December 02, 2019 8:29 AM  

wreckage wrote:it might be that someone "inside" the Catholic/Orthodox fight might not consider the rebuttals valid.

I'm not qualified to judge Kurgan's arguments or vice versa. A debate will show even a layman which is in the right.

Michael D. wrote:Same. Dyer needs to be exposed for a fraud

Lots of brave souls attack Jay for this and that but when they get invited to a debate they fold. You're not fooling anyone.

Blogger Andrew F December 02, 2019 8:52 AM  

Hungary, Austria, Poland, Croatia and Italy were also on the front lines. The battle of Tours was a significant battle that took place in France. The Islamic invasions certainly fall hard upon the Orthodox countries but Catholic areas were also invaded.

Blogger Stilicho December 02, 2019 9:00 AM  

As a Protestant/Reformed Christian, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I like the Kurgan and enjoy his writing howevermuch we may disagree over dogmatic issues, I know he is a committed Christian. Dyer I know nothing of, save for this blog post. Of canon law, I could care less since it is just the organizational bylaws of the Roman Church.

As for theological debate, I find it of interest if I can learn from it. If it is dialectical. If rhetorical, it may be amusing, but of little lasting value (except to expose Gammas, charlatans, poseurs, liars, etc.).

Rolf Nelson posted some links (at men of the west site) to an evangelical youtuber who has done a good job of examining different denominations of Christianity through quick but well done interviews of priests and pastors from those denominations. Look for ten minute bible hour on youtube if you are interested. Print interviews would have been better and allowed for more depth, but they are pretty good as far as they go.

Blogger xevious2030 December 02, 2019 9:08 AM  

“it was Benedict's intent to ‘fundamentally transform’ the papacy”

There were two Benedict’s (XVI), one man. There was the younger, foolish Benedict, and there is the Benedict that began to realize the pit had no bottom and tried to turn things around.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 02, 2019 9:15 AM  

Ratzinger could not have turned things around because he did not admit that V2 was wrong. Until the clergy admits that V2 was wrong and a big mistake, they will not be able to turn things around. No matter how many clergymen spin words to pretend like V2 was actually a good thing, it is very clearly one of the main factors in decreasing mass attendance, as well as causing literally thousands of contradictions with previous church doctrine. It's now in Francis' hands to call a 3rd Vatican council to undo the mistakes of the 2nd but I doubt that he will make that decision.

Blogger Br1cht December 02, 2019 9:21 AM  

I usually try to not clog up the comments with my admittedly bad Swe-english from a midwit but if that was Mr Dyers "Tweet" you quoted(banned since the great Meme war of -16) my respect for him has been gamma-torpedoed. Why anyone would interpret VD´s statements(if we´re talking about the Darkstream) so very foolishly and then imply that VD of all people would hide behind the Kurgan beggars belief.

I had nothing but respect for Mr Dyer and have no dog in the race but either he has problem understanding English or his sense of self confidence must be very fragile indeed.


Blogger xevious2030 December 02, 2019 9:29 AM  

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Blogger xevious2030 December 02, 2019 9:31 AM  

“Ratzinger could not have turned things around because he did not admit that V2 was wrong.”

It is bigger than Ratzinger. He put into place some weapons, he opened the door just a little bit. And it is up to those so inclined to use them.

Blogger Beau December 02, 2019 9:38 AM  

@Jose Miguel

Thanks

@Lazarus

A pity. Maybe some other time.

Blogger Fuzzy December 02, 2019 9:38 AM  

The gamma brigade is just trying to get a rise out of you, Vox! These guys are bottom feeders who only insult other content creators without making any worthwhile content themselves... Super weak!

Blogger Ska_Boss December 02, 2019 10:00 AM  

Oof, that Twitter thread almost gave me cancer. This is going to be one interesting debate.

Blogger Tars Tarkas December 02, 2019 10:24 AM  

Ska_Boss wrote:Oof, that Twitter thread almost gave me cancer. This is going to be one interesting debate.

What is says to me is 'avoid this like the plague' It says this is going to turn into a name calling match.
The guy probably means well. He probably thinks he is just pumping up the debate to get more views. But when you do that, it goes from a subject debate to a drama debate.
The debate should be written IMHO.

Blogger VD December 02, 2019 10:39 AM  

The gamma brigade is just trying to get a rise out of you, Vox!

Well THAT is certainly a totally new phenomenon hitherto unknown....

Blogger Jill in StL December 02, 2019 10:41 AM  

Dyer's constant use of "LOL" is 100% gamma and if Big Bear had chat moderator control, I think he would ban Dyer from a debate in less than 1 second! I have not watched a single Dyer video, but read his Twitter - what a condescending know-it-ALL gamma and I'm already tuned out to anything he says, right or wrong, because I can't get past that retarded gamma behavior. What an arse.

Blogger ace December 02, 2019 10:42 AM  

Gammas generally conduct an argument by hating someone and then using Google to tendentiously contradict their every statement. It's true that, using that method, one doesn't need to know anything about a subject.

Afterwards they attribute any success they had employing this con as the result of their personal genius. If they had any humility they'd be deltas.

Blogger tuberman December 02, 2019 10:42 AM  

Those Tweets were intentional ignorance, meant for partisan fans.

"Oof, that Twitter thread almost gave me cancer. This is going to be one interesting debate."

If...if you are interested in mud wrestling contests? What's interesting will be, can they avoid it devolving. Would be cool if it goes toward high percent dialectics.

Cut the drama debaters, please.

Blogger The Depolrable Podunk Ken Ramsey December 02, 2019 10:45 AM  

Beau wrote:If anyone Orthodox can assist me, I'm looking for a woman acknowledged by the Orthodox and perhaps RC as a saint. A woman of purity, piety, perhaps a mom, someone obscure, just lived an exemplary, beautiful, quiet life. Any nominations?

The Handmaiden To The Lord, perhaps?

Blogger Lazarus December 02, 2019 10:50 AM  

Tars Tarkas wrote:He probably thinks he is just pumping up the debate to get more views.

Probably. He ended an interview with this:

" One last note: writing on popular films is also a great way to gain a lot of readers."

Blogger tuberman December 02, 2019 11:08 AM  

Lazarus,

"Probably. He ended an interview with this:

" One last note: writing on popular films is also a great way to gain a lot of readers.""

Yes, and this is why the debate will go rhetoric, as one side's motive is to gain shot-term interest.

Blogger Poco December 02, 2019 11:48 AM  

An Orthodox Deacon explained to me that though they believe in the fall they do not believe in original sin. That's a big difference.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 02, 2019 12:05 PM  

Poco wrote:An Orthodox Deacon explained to me that though they believe in the fall they do not believe in original sin. That's a big difference.
It's not at all that simple. The actual answer is here:
https://www.oca.org/questions/teaching/original-sin
TL;DR, the Orthodox distinguish the guilt of the 1st sin from the consequences. The Roman Catholics do not. The Roman position is an outcome of dealing with the Pelagian heresy that merely human effort is sufficient to gain salvation.

Blogger DeepThought December 02, 2019 12:29 PM  

Jay Dyer got a little butt hurt and went full gamma on Vox Day and started attacking him on Twitter.

Gammas be gammaing.

Blogger DeepThought December 02, 2019 12:37 PM  

Why debates matter. Catholicism is on the decline. Westerners are fleeing it faster than the speed of light.

If you want Catholicism to survive, it must correct itself or wither away like Episcopalians

Blogger nidus of inflection December 02, 2019 1:23 PM  

Between Rod Dreher's diseased-chicken aesthetic cuckoldry and this guy's basketball-American trash talk, I wish some of my Orthodox brothers would learn the value of STFD/STFU. On the plus side, we see we have work to do.

Blogger Opiter December 02, 2019 1:37 PM  

@Servant, it is not a prayer of worship, it's a recitation of scripture and a request for her to pray to God on our behalf, with origins in Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:42. I see it as little different than one of my Protestant friends asking another to pray over them, or asking a Catholic friend or family member to pray for us in difficult times.

If the verse you refer to, correct me if I am wrong, is Revelation 8:4, I see a reference to "And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand." The incense or "fragrance" is distinct from the prayers, which originate from saints in this case. Mary is revered as a saint in the Catholic Church, so we are asking for her prayers on our behalf.

Not here to start a debate or state the superiority of one sect over another, just imparting what I have understood, I hope this helps you understand in turn.

Blogger Ranger December 02, 2019 1:51 PM  

Canon 953 of the Code of Canon Law 1917:
"The consecration of a Bishop is reserved to the Roman Pontiff so that it is not permitted to any Bishop to consecrate another as Bishop without first having gotten a Pontifical mandate"

Time is running out on the Sedeprivationist position. If there has not been a valid Roman Pontiff in the last 60 years, there probably isn't any bishop alive who fulfills that condition, which means the Roman Catholic Church no longer has apostolic succession.

Blogger Shawnesy December 02, 2019 1:58 PM  

@Servant You said: "In Revelations, prayer is described as a fragrant offering to the Lord."

Here are the sections I think you're referring to: Revelations 5:8 & 8:3-4.

Incense is used as an offering. You pray while incense is offered. Is just burning incense alone considered prayer? Can you pray without burning incense?

Your "logical steps" after your incense definition are ridiculous. Do go aspie on us. Here let me show you: I light some incense. It's heavenly aroma floats into the air. Then I pray, "Virgin Mary, Mother of God, please pray to God for me." Is asking someone holy to offer prayers in your name the same as worshiping that person as a God?

While incense can symbolize prayer, it is not prayer by itself. Saying "Virgin Mary, pray to God for me" does not make her a God. If you want to understand why people pray to Mary and other Saints you don't need to dig out passages in the bible and impose your interpretations of them on us.

Why don't you read what the early church fathers said about praying to Mary and the Saints. I'm sure they've answered this question before.

Blogger Shawnesy December 02, 2019 1:59 PM  

Sorry... I meant Do NOT go aspie on us.

Blogger Hieronymus Burgmeister December 02, 2019 2:08 PM  

In RC Church, a bishop is the highest form of ordination (consecration).

The pope (and the cardinal) are not ordinations, but rather a function within the church. Theoretically, a priest or even a deacon could become cardinal and pope.

The pope is usually a catholic bishop, elected to act as the 'primus inter pares' for the RC church.

Blogger Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi December 02, 2019 2:23 PM  

I think the biggest reason that Protestants confuse veneration of saints with worship is because for Protestants the highest form of worship that they employ is prayer. Thus all prayer seems like worship to them.

Whereas for Catholics (and Orthodox too) there is the Mass which is the highest form of worship that they can partake in. Thus there is a mental leap that Protestants need to be able to make to understand the distinction that is obvious to Catholics, but unfathomable to most Protestants.

Blogger Jose Miguel December 02, 2019 2:28 PM  

@Servant

One false statement I see in your arguement is the line "a sacrifice is an act of worship."

My wife and I have made multiple sacrifices for our newborn. Neither of us have worshipped our newborn through any of them. Ergo praying to Mary isn't provably an act of worship by this argument, as sacrifice is not necessarily an act of worship. For a biblical parallel, there is no greater love than this, a man sacrificing his life for a friend. That sacrifice is also not an act of worship. Christ himself lived that out to the fullest. He didn't worship us when He sacrificed Himself on the cross for us.

On the"Hail Mary" itself, the first two lines are are from Luke 1, statements said to Mary by the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth. Is it wrong to honor her with the same words that an angel used to honor her now that she is in heaven?

Those are the only lines in the Orthodox Hail Mary, the Catechism of the Council of Trent added the third in the sixteenth century for Roman Catholics.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 02, 2019 3:29 PM  

Ranger wrote:Time is running out on the Sedeprivationist position. If there has not been a valid Roman Pontiff in the last 60 years, there probably isn't any bishop alive who fulfills that condition, which means the Roman Catholic Church no longer has apostolic succession.
Liceity and validity are not the same thing, and under canon law, salvation of souls is the highest law.

Blogger Dan Karelian December 03, 2019 9:10 AM  

Vox the debate that Jay is offering to you is concerning your trinitarian skepticism and sola scriptura, not sedevacantism.

Is that a position you are confident enough to defend in a debate?

From Jay's Twitter:
Note: in regards to Vox day or kurgan or whoever, I’m only interested in defending Orthodox theology. I have zero concern over IQ and battle of wits - I’m sure there plenty of areas Vox would best me. The offer of debate is always ultimately defense of Orthodoxy.

Blogger luisonmcbiel December 03, 2019 2:01 PM  

It will be funny to see the boomer get rolled.

Blogger VD December 04, 2019 7:34 AM  

Is that a position you are confident enough to defend in a debate?

Yes. However, I'm a little occupied with certain other conflicts right now, so I have no time for debates.

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