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Friday, December 13, 2019

Corporate junk science

It's observably even worse than the coin-flip that is professional peer-reviewed science:
Three years ago, I put my faith in a 23andMe DNA test and got burned.

While most of my results initially checked out — about 50 percent South Asian and what looked like a 50 percent hodgepodge of European — there was one glaring surprise. Where roughly 25 percent Italian was supposed to be, Middle Eastern stood in its place. The results shocked me.

Over the years, I had made a lot of the Italian portion of my heritage; I had learned the language, majored in Latin in college, and lived in Rome, Italy, for my semester abroad. Still, as a rational person, I believed the science. But my grandmother, whose parents moved from Sicily to Brooklyn, where she was born and grew up speaking Italian, refused to accept the findings.

Fast forward to this summer, when I got an email about new DNA relations on 23andMe and revisited my updated genetic results, only to find out that I am, in fact, about a quarter Italian (and generally southern European). But it was too late to tell my grandma. She’s dead now and I’m a liar.
Nonna was right to reject the "science". The science, as is all too often the case, was flat-out wrong. Logic and evidence now dictates that if the science smells off, that's probably because it is.

Labels:

91 Comments:

Blogger Nathan Bruno December 13, 2019 8:42 AM  

We live in a strange time where "Borders, Language, Culture" is racist, but going back to the blood is trendy, especially when the European part is made invisible by low-level skulduggery. As with Valerie Jarrett and her 49% European, 46% African, and the rest Native American, it allowed her to declare, "Like most African Americans, there's some American Indian in my background."

Even somebody who bought into this notion that blood trumps borders, language, and culture would have to be a complete moron to have that background in the history of the Italian people and not see that "Middle Eastern" was an attempt to take the locus of Med genes and find a way to declare it to be non-white.

I bet they wish they could get a two-fer against Trump and Gabbard by declaring Asad to be white.

Blogger The Observer December 13, 2019 8:44 AM  

Remember that these people have openly admitted to inserting 1-3% african DNA into peoples' results in order to "fight racism".

Blogger MagisterLudi December 13, 2019 8:50 AM  

The Observer wrote:Remember that these people have openly admitted to inserting 1-3% african DNA into peoples' results in order to "fight racism".

We all Kangz now

Blogger Rakshasa December 13, 2019 8:55 AM  

They have admitted to adding some low percentage of 'african' decent to all native european's profiles just to mess with racists, yet it is very easy to get 100% ashkenazi result (e.g. shapiru) despite it being almost impossible for there not to have been any intermixing.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 13, 2019 8:58 AM  

If you cannot trust a Jewish owned and ran company with your DNA who in the heck can you trust?

Blogger Haus frau December 13, 2019 9:04 AM  

This guy tested his maine coon cat and got the results back as %67 European, %22 sub-Saharan African, and east Asian/native American. I've read 23 and me sells the results of their testing to law enforcement. Kind of makes ya wonder exactly what they are selling and what really happens to the samples they receive.


https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/234783989/?fbclid=IwAR1C_i_0146E8D-bfFFu_oZJ5FvvZd_V91NTIPRVbOgZExbkHvEMhJ947B8

Blogger Damelon Brinn December 13, 2019 9:05 AM  

Corporate science gave us things like "4 out of 5 dentists recommend Juicy Fruit gum!" Can't imagine why these modern tech/science companies would be any better, especially when you look at their other ties. At least the gum companies probably just wanted to sell gum.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 13, 2019 9:13 AM  

Well, what do you expect from the ex-wife of one of the co-founders of Google?

Oh, and she's the sister of the current YouTube CEO as well.

Blogger Unknown December 13, 2019 9:33 AM  

My 23andMe test said I was 0.1% native american, now its been updated so i'm 100% European (91.9% British and Irish)

Makes you wonder how they can fuck up correlating DNA between groups so easily, especially in the case which Vox described above.

I feel sorry for the writer of that article because he/she will feel guilt trusting science over his/her grandmother

Blogger kmbr December 13, 2019 9:34 AM  

Mine told me I was half British which I found to be a surprise. And like 8% Italian. Even bigger surprise.

Then I got a notice that it was revised. It showed no British. No Italian. Half Eastern Europe and Russian, 25% Germanic, the rest Baltic and France. Which sounds accurate.

My husband, who is hapa. Half Thai. His showed he actually had Vietnamese and less Thai. I doubt those are very accurate.

Interestingly, my son showed up about 28% Asian and my daughter barely 15%.

Who knows, they are fun to do even though they probably end up in nefarious hands.

None us us showed any African.

Blogger tuberman December 13, 2019 9:34 AM  

Who is the CEO of 23andMe, and with whom is she connected? That is all you need to know about this companies science.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer December 13, 2019 9:40 AM  

He accepted the "science" instead of his Grandmother's memories? That said, Sicilian. In that situation, what counts as "Italian" and what counts as "Middle Eastern?" When my wife and I took an Italian class for adults there was a student of Italian descent who was keen to clarify that her ancestors came from Northern Italy. The thing is, the grandmother's family came from Italy, they spoke Italian. Their history was Italian history.

Blogger Nation-Deprived December 13, 2019 10:02 AM  

Having seen three peoples results, the top 85% or so was consistent to what they know themselves to be. The remaining was some exotic things that they took as a badge of honor. They had NO idea they were part “X”!

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei December 13, 2019 10:06 AM  

Why would anyone willingly hand such vital information straight to the globohomo machine?

"Over the years, I had made a lot of the Italian portion of my heritage", cuz even he hated South Asians and didn't want to be one. I'll bet he was damn near suicidal when his cool "Italian" quarter got transmogrified to "Middle Eastern".

Blogger JovianStorm December 13, 2019 10:08 AM  

Fortunately, 23andme will also update the DNA data in the FBI database. Wouldn't want Big Brother thinking you were 25% arab, right?

Blogger Barbarossa December 13, 2019 10:10 AM  

Oh, just wait until the "I trusted my business strategy to Artificial Intelligence" horror stories start popping up.

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei December 13, 2019 10:12 AM  

@1 - Who's saying "language and culture" are racist? Calling someone a retard is perfectly acceptable if you're from the hood rat "culture" and using their "slang". The lust for non-white language and culture is also why "Islam is right about women" creates such a tizzy among the "I heart refugees" crowd.

Blogger CynicalMan December 13, 2019 10:13 AM  

I'll never understand why some people are always looking to be something other than American.

Blogger Aeroschmidt December 13, 2019 10:23 AM  

23andme ancestor grouping seems to be based on self reporting not science. And they are currently on their 5th generation of testing. My results used to have a little black Jew in them, particularly tiny little pyigmy black people. Laughably wrong.

It's a moving target.

The more interesting thing was helping a illigitimate child put up for adoption figure out his family tree and who his mother and grandparents are.

Blogger Akulkis December 13, 2019 10:30 AM  

Haus Frau

Just like with TV, even if you are paying for it, you're not the customer, you are the product.

Blogger Akulkis December 13, 2019 10:36 AM  

@CynicalMan

Some people never left Ellis Island. And their descendants are still there, too. The Eye-Ties seem to be the most afflicted.

Blogger tuberman December 13, 2019 10:36 AM  

CynicalMan wrote:I'll never understand why some people are always looking to be something other than American.

DUH! Simple:

1)Virtue-Signaling
2)Possible minority status uses
3)Hatred of Christianity, the West, and civilization in general

Blogger Rick December 13, 2019 10:38 AM  

My brain tells me we know next to nothing about DNA (if it even exits). Wonder if Owen believes in the helix. Anybody ever hear him mention it?

Blogger Rick December 13, 2019 10:40 AM  

Punchline: they should let OJ go.

(too soon?)

Blogger Redbeard December 13, 2019 10:41 AM  

I've been tempted to send me dog's DNA for testing, I'm glad someone beat me to the punch in exposing the fraud

Blogger Nathan Bruno December 13, 2019 10:45 AM  

@17

My observation is that people who think that civic nationalists are racists have adopted a definition of race and ethnicity that coincides with racial separatist groups. I just find it funny because they never have to be consistent.

The writer of the linked article is certainly a leftist. One can tell from the excerpt without having to read further. No well-raised, God-fearing child would be such a snotty brat as to tell his Sicilian grandmother that she was wrong about their ancestry. She should have gotten out the knife (...that we all know every Sicilian carries).

That formulation is from the Savage Nation. Leftists called Michael Savage's "borders, language, culture" racist, especially when used by Trump. Trump's civic nationalism is a formulation of "borders, language, culture".

Everyone who called Trump and Trump supporters 'racist' - those people, who are leftists, who would include the Silicon Valley crowd - said that "borders, language, culture" as a national formulation was racist, but they're happy to appeal to a blood definition that says, for example, the "Heritage Descendants of American Slaves" are always a separate nation.

Get a Darwinist talking about the definition of "species" - you'll have similar fun times.

Blogger OneWingedShark December 13, 2019 10:49 AM  

The Observer wrote:Remember that these people have openly admitted to inserting 1-3% african DNA into peoples' results in order to "fight racism".
Yes; reading Vox's post I recalled reading a story/interview somewhere where the genetic-testing guys were deliberately fabricating results. Some rationalization like "countering racism" in predominantly 'white' people. — Glad to know I wasn't misremembering.

MagisterLudi wrote:The Observer wrote:Remember that these people have openly admitted to inserting 1-3% african DNA into peoples' results in order to "fight racism".
We all Kangz now

There's a infographic about history/tech that mocks the one showing the [Christian] "dark ages" are to blame for us not being in space now… it has fun things on it like African "proto kangdoms" and the "Fino-Korean HyperWar".

Mr.MantraMan wrote:If you cannot trust a Jewish owned and ran company with your DNA who in the heck can you trust?
Certainly not your own grandparents and great-grandparents! I mean can you imagine how much they clung to their guns and bibles!

Barbarossa wrote:Oh, just wait until the "I trusted my business strategy to Artificial Intelligence" horror stories start popping up.
Oh, that is going to be some amazing fun!

Blogger Shane Bradman December 13, 2019 10:50 AM  

They made a fool of you and now they have your DNA. There's no benefit to that "service".

Blogger Thomas Howard December 13, 2019 10:51 AM  

I'll never submit a DNA sample to one of these corporations or the government. To do so would be to risk a bad faith actor having the potential capability of producing an UHIQ, 450+ BP, 700+ DL, sub 4.7 40, pure alpha super soldier clone army. Finally, something we can agree on.

Blogger Kraemer December 13, 2019 10:55 AM  

There is a war on European, Christian culturr. So white people are looking for some culture to identify with. If American culture gets demonized, you wanna be involved in another culture

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 13, 2019 10:57 AM  

Speaking of junk science I saw a piece on YouTube recently that suggested that pre-Colombian Egyptian mummies had access to cocaine and nicotine. The establishment declared "impossible!" And buried it.

Now I'm rereading Barry Fell.

Blogger yoghi.llama December 13, 2019 11:05 AM  

https://infogalactic.com/info/Fixation_index

The fixation index of Italians vs Palestinians is only 0.0064.

Much as it pains me to say it, I have a little sympathy for 23andme.

Blogger Halibetlector December 13, 2019 11:06 AM  

Unknown wrote:Makes you wonder how they can fuck up correlating DNA between groups so easily, especially in the case which Vox described above.
Easy: they don't actually identify DNA markers that are representative of race. That would be too much like science. They're a tech company. They take a subset of DNA markers[0] from thousands of people who identify as Italian and they use it to train an AI model (neural net). Neural nets are just mathematical equations designed to identify and look for patterns in a set of data. As people send in their DNA, the training set grows and the accuracy of the neural net increases. Of course, all of this depends on the training data being accurate in the first place...

A great video about neural nets can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVQUSndDllU

[0]: It's called "genotyping". Full DNA sequencing costs about $1000 per person.

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/202904600-Difference-Between-DNA-Genotyping-Sequencing.

Blogger Nate73 December 13, 2019 11:19 AM  

I wonder if science will continue to advance in China, or if this is the zenith and after this "science" will equate to engineering R&D?

Blogger Nat Philosopher December 13, 2019 11:37 AM  

23 and me plainly doesn't sample enough genes for statistical validity. I've had both me, , and my wife, and our daughters tested. based on my wife and me, their reports on my daughter's were statistically impossible. ( and they figured this out for one of them a few days after they sent it to us and retracted it, saying she hadn't produced enough saliva.) mine and my wife's make perfect sense, and there's no doubt they weren't switched in the hospital since home births, and both 23 and me's for the daughters found me 50% in my daughter's, what they were screwing up was my wife's portion.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 13, 2019 11:39 AM  

If the customer seems white by name they will lie and throw in Jew, Arab, African, etc.
That's how bad it is.
Of course, what does it matter in the end?
Unless you were trying to emigrate to Israel.

Blogger Dan in Georgia December 13, 2019 11:43 AM  

Jango Fett should’ve homesteaded.

Blogger Calvin809 December 13, 2019 12:06 PM  

When are they going to start reporting % gay?

Blogger Scuzzaman December 13, 2019 12:08 PM  

Meanwhile the Israelis are having their record third election in a year.

These (((people))) can’t even get on with each other.

Blogger Ransom Smith December 13, 2019 12:12 PM  

Who is the CEO of 23andMe, and with whom is she connected?
A Jewish woman who is the sister of YouTube's CEO.

Blogger Balam December 13, 2019 12:18 PM  

I recall the story of John Moore v. Regents of the University of California. John received cancer treatment and the doctors discovered a unique mutation and promptly patented John's cell line whose research rights sold for hundreds of thousands dollacs without sharing or even telling John. Californian courts ruled A-OK for it.

"The court found that Moore had no property rights to his discarded cells or to any profits made from them. However, the research physician had an obligation to reveal his financial interest in the materials that were harvested from Moore, who could thus bring a claim for any injury that he sustained by the physician's failure to disclose his interests."

No property rights. We are cattle to these people, even our cell lines to be harvested and listed as 'invented' by them. Why balk at lying about the cells you've harvested to people's faces?

Blogger Nathan Hornok December 13, 2019 12:33 PM  

All of this 23andMe type ancestry testing is based on speculation. It's not like they have perfect DNA samples from 1,000 year old corpses from every race and tribe to build their reference data base. Instead, they just look at how your genetic markers compare to other people's genetic markers and then use actual ancestry records of those other people to compare your results to them. The results are only as good as the reliability of the actual ancestry record of the other people they have tested. If incorrect ancestry records get put into the database it will start to skew the results for everyone with comparable genetic markers. Also, the comparability of the genetic markers is just a numbers game anyway, which is why the ancestry results are just reported as percentages of likely relation, and not hard data. Lastly, since these tests operate outside of the world of medical testing, which has the constant threat of lawsuits to motivate them to not screw up, the motivation for a 23andMe company to analyse the data correctly is very very low. It's the junkiest of the junk science. And since we already know that most of science is about as valuable as an open sewer pit, don't waste your money on ancestry testing.

Blogger Newscaper312 December 13, 2019 12:34 PM  

Apart from ineptitude and monkey business (lie about every US white being being 21% negro, etc, the problem is inherently hard and even honest results are fuzzy for multiple reasons:

1) For practical reasons they are only checking a certain number of genes, well less than 1%. Of course they are targeting the ones they think they know the role of and meaning of the common variations.

2) There is no simple 'race' gene to check, a big part of why progs lie claiming 'there is no such thing as race'. But there absolutely ARE clusters of genes passed down through time that taken as a whole actually are a solid indicator. Going finer grained is statistically more subtle, made more complicated when you throw in modern mixing.

3) Generations of mixing gets even weirder in interpreting percentage results against the real world 'identity', depending just which subsets of genes you get from each parent, grandparent, etc. Yes, each generation gets half of their genes from each parent, but the actual half you get may not be in the same proportion that they got. Example: your family is all white Anglo but you have a grandmother who was half Cherokee (her father was full blooded). But because of the randomness in *which* of her genes got. In other words, in real world terms you would say you are 1/8th Cherokee, but in reality you could easily be more or less, in pure genetic terms. Theoretically, at the extremes, you could have ended up with only her white gene half, or only her native gene half, so up to *1/4th* 'cherokee' -- or zero. Gets even weirder if you had two indians in the woodpile.

4) What does it even mean for the results to determine "French" or whatever? *When* is important. Are they comparing against what they infer the genes were back in the 18th century? What about Franks, Gauls, Normans/Vikings? There's a lot of murkiness depending when they base their snapshots for comparison.

My favorite commercial was for the testing done thru Ancestry.com, which I think is by 23andMe. Hispanic looking woman talks proudly about how she thought she was mostly Mexican, *but* her results show 35% Native American and 40% "Iberian Peninsula". WTF does she think "Mexican" is???? Yet she clearly felt it made her more special instea do fjust being a mutt. What stupid BS.

Blogger Magson December 13, 2019 12:58 PM  

According to my family tree I'm just slightly under half English, then 1 quarter Dutch, 1 eighth, and 1 sixteenth Swedish. The last little bit is a mish-mash of French, Irish, and Welsh.

According to 23andMe's report on my sister, we're 71% "British Isles" (which circle included northern France and the Netherlands), 10% Scandinavian, and 9% "western Europe" so for us it wasn't too far off, at least.

Blogger stevo December 13, 2019 1:01 PM  

Did they voluntarily send revised results?

Blogger J Van Stry December 13, 2019 1:04 PM  

That's because there were people at 23andMe who were messing with the results because of 'Social Justice'.
Back before they took away access to your actual genetic code, I went and checked all the markers I was interested in myself. Because I didn't trust them too (and in many cases those social justice types didn't want you finding certain things out).

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 13, 2019 1:09 PM  

"My brain tells me we know next to nothing about DNA (if it even exits)."

Objectively we do know next to nothing about it. If you compared what we do know to what we don't know as a pie chart, the "do" part of the chart diverges from center to edge about as much as a sewing needle does from point to eye, and that's after fudging to make it look larger.

"Certainly not your own grandparents and great-grandparents! I mean can you imagine how much they clung to their guns and bibles!"

How very many people have the ignorance and arrogance to wonder why they clung so tightly, and to look down on them for it.

All this being said, don't send your DNA to 23andme. It really is just asking for it. People are smart enough not to correctly fill out certain censuses, and yet dumb enough to send a sample of their DNA in to a (((company))), with fedgov contracts, who helps out law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

Make no mistake, one of the ends of this is going to be "genetic racism", the original sin of being able to notice, and it's going to be a nearly universal European trait with next to no spread outside of that.

Blogger cheddarman December 13, 2019 1:24 PM  

Then we are all black.

Blogger NateM December 13, 2019 1:38 PM  

I remember this old security guard talking about how the Moors conquered Sicily. Apparently they changed things a lot

Blogger Yarnwinder December 13, 2019 1:50 PM  

I'm wondering how the guy got his cat to spit...

Blogger Newscaper312 December 13, 2019 1:52 PM  

@44 Magson

See my item #3 in @43 for how that can happen -- and both be correct.

Blogger Noah B. December 13, 2019 1:53 PM  

I wonder how many people are submitting DNA samples that aren't actually their own.

Blogger Newscaper312 December 13, 2019 1:53 PM  

Hey moderators what's the hold up?
You guys got real jobs or something?
jk

Blogger Steve Samson December 13, 2019 1:53 PM  

If Ashkenazis are mostly Italian, then possibly Italian is the same as Middle Eastern?

Or, "we really are the Hebrews of the Bible and here's the science to prove it."

Blogger sammibandit December 13, 2019 1:56 PM  

That said, Sicilian. In that situation, what counts as "Italian" and what counts as "Middle Eastern?" When my wife and I took an Italian class for adults there was a student of Italian descent who was keen to clarify that her ancestors came from Northern Italy. The thing is, the grandmother's family came from Italy, they spoke Italian. Their history was Italian history.

Afaik Sicilians don't and have not liked to mix, with the exception of those Northmen who came to the island with their male DNA. One of my Nordic male descendants left some graffiti there before going to Byzantium as my aunt found out, adding concordance to the common Sicilian report that they have Nordic blood. I figure those Nordics were pretty sexy. Nor does it surprise me that Nordic males like adventure and the ladies.

Northern Italians are different. They tend to be closer related to Austrians. The culture is similar too. My Austrian Oma (compare to Nona) looks Italian, moves like an Italian, loves Nutella like one too.

The method of land use in Italy has historically tended to be split North to South. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a Northerner saying they're different.

Point being it's easier to trust the self reports of people, study their faces and body types, and surnames than to trust DNA analysis.

Blogger peacefulposter December 13, 2019 1:57 PM  

Do siblings who anonymously send their DNA to 23andMee get the same results?

Blogger Dan in Georgia December 13, 2019 2:05 PM  

OT: Owen Benjamin was just banned from Instagram. Time to sue Zuckerberg. I hear he has deep pockets...

Blogger HouellebecqGurl December 13, 2019 2:26 PM  

I was able to do a family tree on both sides of my family going back to the 1500s.
That's good enough for me.
Turns out, I'm exactly what I thought I'd be-about 70% English and about 30% German.
Okay, cool. I look it, as well as do the rest of my living relatives. No big mystery.

Blogger Oswald December 13, 2019 2:47 PM  

Ultimately, the Government will use this information to jail political opponents for crimes they didn't commit. Plus, it will probably be directly connected to the mark of the beast.

Blogger Mr X December 13, 2019 2:53 PM  

23andme results are not to be trusted. I have a fully Italian great-grandparent, so I should be at least 12.5% Italian. Yet it says I am only "4"% Italian", and from Campania and Sicily - incorrect, my great-grandmother was from Lombardy. The rest of the ancestry is even more incorrect. Basically they just want to take your data to sell health information to companies.

Blogger matism December 13, 2019 2:55 PM  

And do realize that the Only Ones can freely wade through the data of these "services" and use it for whatever purposed they desire.

Or do you STILL trust the FBI???

Blogger sammibandit December 13, 2019 3:16 PM  

Hahahaha wtf

Blogger glueballs December 13, 2019 3:17 PM  

Use an attorney. A young gun who wishes to improve his network or your current counsel will possibly assist you free of charge.

Wear gloves when contributing your physical specimen so you don’t leave prints behind, otherwise you voluntarily contribute those too arguably. Provide a code name instead of an actual personal one - I submitted baseball managers for example. No real data.

Have the attorney set up a free proton mail email account for each submission and share the details with you. Once the results arrive, use a proton mail free vpn to view them.

Your DNA and other information is disassociated with you and subject to attorney-client privilege. If the government or insurance carriers attempt to find you through family members and their DNA, it’ll be a lot more challenging and subject to legal privilege.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 13, 2019 3:31 PM  

Can Boris find his balls, his true nature, his real loyalty to England? Is it possible to reform an open borders cuck?

Blogger CM December 13, 2019 3:35 PM  

Proper genealogy is more fun, but there's a lot of branches you can take a wrong turn in.

I'm currently stuck in the midst of the Drakes where if you don't pay close attention to dates looks like it comes from Queen Elizabeth I's privy council.

It doesn't... it's a dead end well before that, but it didn't stop other members of that family tree from claiming that ancestry as their own.

Blogger Oswald December 13, 2019 3:46 PM  

Probably, the original methods they used were a bit on the shoddy side. Who could prove otherwise in a court of law. The main thing was to get the business up and running and the money flowing in. Later, corrections or improvements could be made. I am confident their methods will soon be highly reliable.
My thinking is could such a business continue to thrive long term by simply existing to tell people their DNA results. The start up costs even allowing for mistakes must have been pretty big. There must have been some long term concepts/goals that were floated to get the investors to invest. Potential matches for organs? Unique genes that could be exploited? Beautiful children to be abducted? Certain undesirables eliminated?

Blogger sd December 13, 2019 3:57 PM  

@2. The Observer.
"Remember that these people have openly admitted to inserting 1-3% african DNA into peoples' results in order to "fight racism"."

One guy finded a loophole and some advantages of having 1-3% African DNA in that video. The best part begins at 2:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibAMSDxV7dQ Uploaded that video elsewhere before Youtube pulls it because it show a inconvenient truh.

On the other hand, it's funny to see some SJW who discovered then they have white ancestry.

Blogger Attila is my bro December 13, 2019 4:16 PM  

Reminds me of this stupid commercial. Dude thinks he's German, totally invested in being German, then his DNA comes back Scottish. I wonder if he got an oops letter afterward with his African-German results.

https://youtu.be/2J5n8kzpbCs

Blogger VFM #7634 December 13, 2019 4:54 PM  

I've never been impressed with 23-and-me.

Ancestry.com was giving some sketchy "trace" percentages for a while, but it refined its results in September 2018, increasing its reference samples from 5,000 to 24,000, and now the results from there appear to match what we know about our ancestry more or less exactly -- 100% European, and in my mother's case, 100% British Isles.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf December 13, 2019 5:39 PM  

When I was finishing my undergraduate my biochemistry professor basically stated 80% of this so called science is bullshit. And maintained that mantra for our entire degree program.

It's one thing to say: think critically or be sceptical. It's another to have your Proff call paragraphs in your $120 biochemistry text complete bullshit ever other week.

I'm convinced that 12 years of test taking with correct and incorrect answers have trained people to think incorrectly as well as to accept authority. Which is probably why people over estimate the value of science while at the same time thinking science produces truth - which it doesn't.

As for 23andMe, I did this test and Ancestry.com on the same day, at the same time. The tests were 60% different. Sadly, the only real data I wanted (tests for known mutations correlated with diseases) wasn't available due to me not living in the USA.

I'd did receive a report that said I was in the top 1% carriers of Neanderthal markers. It was revised down to top 40% a few months later. I suspect over time this information will be extremely useful. The issue is, it's unbelievably powerful. We will need to have very specific regulations regarding our genetic profiles in the coming decades.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 13, 2019 5:45 PM  

"If Ashkenazis are mostly Italian, then possibly Italian is the same as Middle Eastern?

Or, "we really are the Hebrews of the Bible and here's the science to prove it.""


Baseline is self-reported. 80% Italian? Still reporting as 100% Jewish.

Blogger Johnny December 13, 2019 5:56 PM  

I wouldn't take unexpected results as proof of error. The Europeans migrated around a lot, and the race groups are commonly defined by language. Speak Italian, you are Italian, that's all. And so on for other groups.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 13, 2019 6:04 PM  

There's another possible angle here: the people working at many of these companies have an ideological bent to them, and we already know at least a few people have actively been lied to about the results.

Perhaps this wasn't a mistake.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 13, 2019 6:11 PM  

Another anecdote: my BiL did the 23 and me test. Keeping in mind that my MiL can trace her Dutch ancestory back on both sides to multiple generations in the homeland his results come back as 12% Dutch. Yeah, hahaha.

Blogger John Rockwell December 13, 2019 7:02 PM  

Transracialism for the win.

Blogger John Rockwell December 13, 2019 7:03 PM  

Adopting the Australian points system. Is quite a start.

Blogger Cloudbuster December 13, 2019 7:49 PM  

Having your DNA registered in a public database is an extremely stupid thing to do. Unfortunately, I have a couple family members I wasn't able to stop in time.

Blogger Cloudbuster December 13, 2019 7:54 PM  

Nat Philosopher wrote:and both 23 and me's for the daughters found me 50% in my daughter's, what they were screwing up was my wife's portion.

You must have been fooling around on your wife! They're not really hers! No, wait....

Blogger sammibandit December 13, 2019 7:54 PM  

It's funny we look at these tools when we know better with our own eyes. We can tell where someone is "from" if we have enough familiarity with examples of the nation(s) they match to.

When you add in those cool photo plates of people from the 1930s identifying various types and compate that to what you see now, a person really starts to see that pattern recognition is one of the best tools we have for identifying where people fit in.

For example, Prince Phillip as a lad looked stereotypically Greek and even a bit Nordic especially in the height and jaw area. A tall, thin lady with blonde hair, prominent cheek bones, and a tall cranium. He aged into a face that is still quite Nordic in shape but Dinaric in features, especially the eyes and sloped forehead.

Blogger Aeroschmidt December 13, 2019 8:59 PM  

@peacefulposter
Yes, your relatives will show up in matches and the predicted level of relationship.
The predicted relationship for the 8 relatives I know we're accurate.

Blogger Gospace December 14, 2019 2:17 AM  

How accurate is DNA testing? I had mine done by ancestrydotcom. Found out I have a half-sibling thanks to my father's fooling around. Of course, the most common surprise in DNA testing is "What do you mean he's not my father?"

On my mother's side I can trace back to my 6G-grandfather. And I have several DNA matches whose trees lead right up to him. 1650+ people on my tree with his surname. So far I've added 4 branches of the tree to that surname through DNA matches and a bunch of people, tracing right up to the common ancestor. Most of the time it's simple confirming that I've traced the tree accurately through census and marriage and birth records - and that the female ancestors weren't cheating....

This is the DNA estimates, which are just estimates based on DNA samples from all over:

Ireland & Scotland 55%
England, Wales & Northwestern Europe 43%
Sweden 2%
Additional Communities
Nova Scotia & Prince Edward Island Settlers
From your regions: England, Wales & Northwestern Europe; Ireland & Scotland
Prince Edward Island Settlers

Pretty much right in line with what I've traced through census and other data. Including the PEI/Nova Scotia parts. The Swedish? Well, my ancestry is almost all British Isles, so likely there's some Viking DNA mixed in. Once you go back 6 generations there are grandparents you're not getting any chromosomes from, provided there are no family tree collapses from cousin marriages. In my case, there aren't through 3 of my grandparents. The 4th has parents born in Ireland. And anyone who claims they can accurately trace their Irish ancestry is likely deluding themselves. I have a DNA match for one person my age who traces all his great-grandparents to Ireland. None of the surnames match any in my tree.... We each go one generation into Irealand and can't find records to counts on. Too many William Whites and Lawrence Morgans married to Bridgets and Marys.... Which is which?

The other big number of DNA matches I get is through my PEI ancestry. Again, when I match with someone I'm pretty much able to connect our trees to a common ancestor through census and marriage and birth records.

The evidence is there that DNA tracing is accurate. Now where the DNA you have originally originated from is a guesstimate. If you match a hundred people who can trace their ancestry to PEI and Nova Scotia, and some of your DNA matches people still living there, your ancestors likely passed through there. And they came from somewhere else, mostly, but not all, Scotland. Now the Scots are mostly Scot. But, where were they before that? A lot of the English came from Normandy. Populations have migrated before, and we're fairly certain the Scots aren't the "original" inhabitants of Scotland; they drove others out. And the Romans at one point had garrisons in the British Isles. If you're descended from a Roman Centurion in England does the DNA show up as Italian or English? let's be real - you have DNA from at least one of your ancestors 50 generations ago. Where did they live then? Your potential number of ancestors that far back exceeds the world's population. There are limits, but no one quite knows where those limits are at. As I've told people who've asked - DNA doesn't lie, but it doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. As mentioned before - 6 generations back, you have no DNA from at least one of your ancestors. If you have absolute verified through accurate records that your 4G grandfather was a full blooded Native American, your DNA may not show it. Or- it might. Your DNA doesn't lie, but it can't give you evidence it doesn't have.

Blogger Rock Angel December 14, 2019 5:50 AM  

Interesting. The September revision went the other way for me. From 70% French, 16% Italian (an initial shock as my father's parents came from Italy in their 20's) with the rest British and Eastern Europe to 50% French, 16% Italian, a smattering of British and Greek and...24% Germanic?

For context I grew up thinking I was 1/2 Italian and 1/2 Irish/French. Also, my half sister is nearly all Scandinavian. No French, Italian or German.

Don't know what to believe of the accuracy of the tests now.

Blogger kmbr December 14, 2019 9:08 AM  

@80

We actually had a first cousin show up recently. We can't figure out who he is or where he came from.

I actually forgot about it. I think I will log back in tonight and see if anything new has come up.

Blogger BadThinker December 14, 2019 9:44 AM  

In our case, we have found the 23andme genotyping to be accurate for our ancestry when comparing records to the genotyping. About 25 years ago, a very conservative cousin of mine did a ton of ancestry research for one side of our family, and traced roots back to exactly where we 23andMe guessed, *including* the African ancestor in the scotch-irish white southerner portion. Soon as she found it, she decided to stop bothering with her ancestry project.

It's not a conspiracy to discover some tiny bit of African in your American white ancestry, since American whites, especially if you can go back to the founding like my family, tend to heavily mixed.

One thing to keep in mind as well is that those ancestors are often 'lost' when doing genotyping due to the statistical nature of the process.

Blogger Azimus December 14, 2019 11:16 AM  

If your name is Kleinschmidt and your family has lived in Milwaukee since the 1870's do you really need a piece of paper that tells you you're a German? This is NOT geneology - geneology is the study of one's ancestors, who they were, what they did, etc. You can learn almost as much about yourself by studying the facial features of your living extended family as you can from this stupid donation of your genetic coding to google which is surely part of some Moonraker-style new world order devilry.

Blogger Azimus December 14, 2019 11:20 AM  

Didn't the Moors over-run Sicily for like 3 centuries? Thats a lot of pillage and rapine. But whether they got it wrong up front or are covering the results in a PC-haze, the story demonstrates equally the worthlessness of science.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 14, 2019 12:55 PM  

The Swedish? Well, my ancestry is almost all British Isles, so likely there's some Viking DNA mixed in.

The Danelaw. AncestryDNA doesn't have a separate Danish ancestry, but from what I've been able to tell, it's lumped in with Swedish in the same way Scottish is with Irish. (And "Ireland and Scotland" used to be simply "Ireland".) I was expecting Danes to be more Norwegian or German, but I guess they're actually less-cucked Swedes.

Blogger sammibandit December 14, 2019 6:41 PM  

The clue is in the name Swe-Den. Swedes tend to have Danish admixture. Norweigians tend to have more variety. You'll find very dark haired full blood Notweigians, while Danes tend to be red or blonde haired.

I go to a Danish church so I'm familiar with the look. They tend to be quite tall including the women. One 3-year-old there is as tall as a 5-year-old. The kids are almost all blonde and many become darker haired as they age. You don't really see the derpy-eyes of Greta Thunberg in these people, though it's not unheard of. Hans Christian Andersen is very typical of the type. Noses can sometimes look Patrician as in his example. There can be a tendency to Dinaric type looks, but much fairer and rounder at the back of the skull.

Blogger Gospace December 14, 2019 9:04 PM  

Ah, "the derpy eyes of Greta Thunberg." Well, where do they come from?

A few weeks back was talking with my son and he said she obviously suffers from fetal alcohol syndrome. I wasn't the least bit familiar with it so I did the obligatory internet search.

She's a textbook example. Her facial picture could substitute for any of the drawings or other pictures I saw to illustrate FAS.

And now that I know of it, I've noticed it in several people I know locally.... and it explains a lot about them.

Blogger sammibandit December 14, 2019 11:25 PM  

I have a hard time looking past the possibility she has FAS. She's got the funny lips and the tendency to spazz out.

Here's some examples of similar eyelids in Nordics excluding Norweigians and Icelanders. They don't otherwise look derpy. I just like to razz Sweden.

Pewds' eyes, resting.
Female example
HCA

Blogger August December 17, 2019 5:37 PM  

I had a less troubling, but similar experience. France had and may still have a ban on this sort of DNA testing, and 23&me may have some other data but they seem to rely heavily on their customer's self-reporting. So they gave me a more British background than was remotely possible.

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