ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2019 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Sunday, January 19, 2020

The horrors of dyscivilization

Of course the medical and scientific communities lied about unborn children not feeling pain:
Unborn babies may be able to feel pain before reaching 24 weeks, say scientists – meaning they could suffer as they are being aborted. Until now, the consensus of medical opinion has been that foetuses cannot feel pain before 24 weeks' gestation, after which abortion is illegal in Britain except in special cases.

But two medical researchers, including a 'pro-choice' British pain expert who used to think there was no chance foetuses could feel pain that early, say recent studies strongly suggest the assumption is incorrect.

The studies indicate unborn babies might be able to feel 'something like pain' as early as 13 weeks, they say.
Reason dictated that no abortions be permitted until it was possible to conclusively determine when life began. But there has never been anything reasonable about the Promethean agenda to destabilize Western civilization and normalize child sacrifice.

And wishing that reality were different than it has been reliably observed to be is no basis for science. For technology, yes, but science, no.

Labels: ,

61 Comments:

Blogger Robert Browning January 19, 2020 5:11 AM  

Only an animal persecutes and torments the weak and the innocent, only a goddamned animal.

Blogger Tomato bear January 19, 2020 5:13 AM  

Is ever there is a need for tags of warning. This is one. Though I could just be weak.

God forgive them, for they know now what they do.

Blogger Liverfluke January 19, 2020 5:22 AM  

Neonatology is my field. There have been published articles since the 1960's confirming and mapping the sensation of pain in the fetus. Heartbreaking.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums January 19, 2020 5:40 AM  

Seems like a bait and switch.
First they move the conversation from whether or not abortion is moral to it's immoral to kill a baby if that baby feels pain. Then they'll figure out a way of painlessly killing babies, which in turn will lead to raising the gestation threshold higher and higher.

Blogger Bernard Korzeniewicz January 19, 2020 5:51 AM  

When I first understood the "abortion" is murder I was 15.
Anyone claiming the abortion is not murder is:
- dumber than 15 yo boy;
or
- a murderous psych in dire need of retirement by any means available.

Blogger The Observer January 19, 2020 6:11 AM  

Using pain as the basis for human life is retarded anyway. If that were the case, we could just sedate and kill anyone we liked.

Blogger John Best. January 19, 2020 6:28 AM  

Oh just killed millions of babies, destroyed the demographics of the nation, my bad, the scientific consensus has changed.

Blogger Uncle John's Band January 19, 2020 7:01 AM  

Wrath may be the sin I struggle with most. This world doesn't make that easier.

Blogger Uncle John's Band January 19, 2020 7:08 AM  

"Using pain as the basis for human life is retarded anyway."

It is a symptom of a de-moralized, materialist trash society. The grasping protoplasm that self-define as "secular" lack even the basis for moral judgment. All they have is their own comfort / reward. It's low-energy narcissism of a sort.

Even ripping babies from a womb can't elicit a reaction, but "does it hurt?" is something they can wrap their morally-bankrupt little minds around.

Blogger Rek. January 19, 2020 7:14 AM  

Pain, as early as from which week? First month of life or as reported here week 13?

Blogger John January 19, 2020 7:25 AM  

Romans 12:19 - "Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord."

And how does the LORD carry out his vengeance?

Romans 13:4 - "For [the governing authority] is the minister of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [...] For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing."

Not a word about it being the ministry of governing authorities to secure the God-given 'rights' and 'civil liberties' of wrongdoers.

Blogger Shane Bradman January 19, 2020 7:46 AM  

Before the feminists start screeching, the answer is yes, we are in favour of putting women who abort their babies in jail.

Blogger Maniac January 19, 2020 8:12 AM  

@12 - If we could just put Feminists in jail, we'd end up solving a good deal of our problems.

Blogger Careless Whisper January 19, 2020 8:16 AM  

"If it feels good, do it" has summed up the parameters of modern mores for over fifty years now. Maybe this will cut through the fog.

Blogger matism January 19, 2020 8:17 AM  

The tribe is fine with abortion. And pedophilia.

Blogger English Tom January 19, 2020 8:30 AM  

@The Observer

We could just sedate and kill anyone we liked.

Check out, Justify Yourself by George Bernard Shaw on youtube. This is their plan.

Blogger English Tom January 19, 2020 8:32 AM  

@Purge 187

If we could just eliminate feminists completely would be better.

Blogger Dan in Georgia January 19, 2020 8:37 AM  

We attended the March for Life beginning in the early 1970s after Roe v Wade. I would’ve been 10 or so. The pictures I’d seen by then made it impossible for me to ever not be pro-life. There is a reason they never want photos of what they do ever made public. No one could ever claim they didn’t know what they were supporting once they had that knowledge. Supporters of abortion are the most evil people alive on this earth.

Blogger Dan in Georgia January 19, 2020 8:45 AM  

The “doctors” should get the death penalty, which should be the same “procedure” he used to murder the baby. Anyone involved in funding the abortion should get a life sentence. Anyone tangentially involved should get mandatory jail time.

That would begin to heal our nation.

Blogger Duke Norfolk January 19, 2020 9:06 AM  

@13

That would be a lot of jailing to be done, in today's world. It depends on just how you define feminism, of course, but how many people support all but the most extreme feminist positions today? Maybe 80-90%? Maybe higher? It still amazes me how many of the ostensible right think it's just peachy to have our women in the armed forces, even in combat roles. How many just can't imagine their wives not working, and "having it all", and Lord knows, suffrage rights; etc, ad nauseum.

That said, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, but I think we'd need to whittle that down a bit. It could be a bit disruptive. ;-)

Blogger Paddy J S January 19, 2020 9:15 AM  

As awful as the mass killings are in the UK and America you at least did not vote for it. Many in Ireland did. I was there the day night as vote came in. Lightning all across the south of Ireland. It however went unsaid in the reaction of our abortion supporting media. How progressive.
Now 12000 Irish children are killed in the womb every year.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 19, 2020 9:32 AM  

"possible to conclusively determine when life began."

There's no point after conception when the child isn't alive, unless it dies or is murdered. The only argument that could be raised is along the lines of "distinct genetics do not necessarily indicate a distinct human being", with your corresponding "better" indicator of what does.

Even each of those alternative indicators would raise a corresponding list of issues for determining what a human is long after birth, like chimaeraism already is for genetics. Blood type for example, what about when someone has to receive a transfusion that replaces more than half of their blood volume? Did they cease to exist temporarily then? Is everyone with the same blood type the same person?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 19, 2020 9:34 AM  

Even to say "if it doesn't hurt it's not wrong" is like a hedonist's idea of morality, with only pleasure being good and only pain being bad. What a feeble conceit.

Blogger Néstor January 19, 2020 9:39 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Néstor January 19, 2020 9:42 AM  

Every abortion destroys an unrepeteable human being, all of that potential lost.

Blogger Doktor Jeep January 19, 2020 10:11 AM  

Roe v Wade exists because "some girl might get in trouble crossing a date line to get an abortion".
Cross the wrong state line with a legal gun and see what happens. I don't recall an abortion amendment in the BoR.
Goes to show that it does not matter what the law is, but how talmudified the interpretation.
But I won't get trapped in some libertardian web on this.
I want to take the precedent and see a day when abortionists and women who had them go to prison.
If I can be turned into a criminal by stroke of a pen, well, the best answer to people who hate you and wage civil war by lawfare is to give them one back.

Blogger Calvin809 January 19, 2020 10:12 AM  

"Feel something like pain", also known as pain to the rest of us.

Blogger Zaklog the Great January 19, 2020 10:21 AM  

@1 Only an animal persecutes and torments the weak and the innocent, only a goddamned animal.

I disagree. There are a few exceptions as far as I know, but animals are not generally interested in cruelty. They will kill and maim, but they do it to fulfill basic needs of their own. I think the word you're looking for is "devils".

Blogger David Ray Milton January 19, 2020 10:37 AM  

Of course, partial birth abortion clearly demon-strates that the satan worshippers never gave a damn about the child’s feelings.

Abortion has always been about protecting freedom. And modern freedom, the more I understand it, is about being free to self-immolate.

Blogger Gastguma January 19, 2020 10:49 AM  

The reason the pain issue is dwelt upon so much is that the main argument ethicists and philosophers use in favor of abortion involves the question of when "personhood" begins. The idea is that only "persons" have rights, and that not all humans are "persons." I once had to take a rudimentary philosophy course, and on the subject of abortion the professor said that there was no need to debate when human life began, because the fetus is obviously a human. The question is whether the fetus is a "person." "Personhood" is very vague and hard to define (probably deliberately), but it supposedly involves consciousness, sensation, or even social acceptance among ones peers. Basically, it's a way of justifying maltreatment of humans by creating a made up subcategory of humans who get to have rights under the discretion of the philosopher kings who deserve to rule by their claim of superior intellect. The scientific fact that the fetus is a human being distinct from the mother (the evidence is overwhelming) means literally nothing to them. When they are shown to be wrong, they will simply redefine their terminology or make up new terminology to justify their foregone conclusions.

Blogger Robert What? January 19, 2020 11:11 AM  

Abortion may be necessary in some extremely rare cases. But it is never something to be celebrated. That is just sick.

Blogger Pathfinderlight January 19, 2020 11:43 AM  

I can hear the rationalizing gears turning now.

"Is a lie intended to keep women free still a lie, really?"

Yes, you psycho! Quit trying to murder the consequences of your whoring.

Blogger WarKicker January 19, 2020 12:36 PM  

"The scientific fact that the fetus is a human being distinct from the mother (the evidence is overwhelming) "

Agreed. Even the most commonly used embryology book used in medical schools states this, and beginning at conception. Personhood is harder to ground making it ripe for abuse.

"Abortion may be necessary in some extremely rare cases."

Rare indeed. From what I saw through my clinical rotations in medical school, the overwhelming majority of abortions were used for birth control. I distinctly remember one lady I saw at the local free clinic our medical school helped staffed asking to have her 11th abortion. It was sickening.

My wife is an OB/GYN (doesn't do abortions) and in over 20 years of private practice has not run across a case when it was deemed necessary to abort the baby to save the life of the mother. Doesn't mean it never happens, but legislating policy on rare exceptions probably isn't wise.

I was a bastard child, born when my mother was just 16. Thank God she had the courage to see through the pregnancy and didn't take the easy way out as advised.

Blogger Wazdakka January 19, 2020 12:56 PM  

Raise the issue with everyone you can. Losing friends is a worthwhile price to pay for changing public opinion; and finally ending this tragedy of our times.

Blogger Robert What? January 19, 2020 1:05 PM  

Cheap and easy abortion devalues all human life.

Blogger Warunicorn January 19, 2020 1:12 PM  

Amen.

Blogger Kat January 19, 2020 1:16 PM  

People like to be idiots and claim that if women can't abort babies up to the moment of birth then women are going to die from complications with ectopic pregnancies. The only explanation is that these people are demon possessed.

Blogger The Observer January 19, 2020 1:19 PM  

Abortion may be necessary in some extremely rare cases.

My wife is an OB/GYN (doesn't do abortions) and in over 20 years of private practice has not run across a case when it was deemed necessary to abort the baby to save the life of the mother. Doesn't mean it never happens, but legislating policy on rare exceptions probably isn't wise.

The proper thing to do is a blanket ban under all circumstances, then case-by-case quiet dispensations for true cases. Enshrining exceptions just leads to exceptions being abused -- "in the case of threats to the mother's life" practically just means a single suicide claim and it's given a pass, where these things exist. Incest and rape exceptions (assuming that this is sufficient justification in the first place) just mean that false accusations of incest and rape spike.

The usual argument against this is "but but we need these exceptions clearly enshrined on paper so that we can't be denied them by obstructionists!" which is completely silly as anyone who has actually dealt with an obstructionist bureaucrat with the backing of all relevant authorities knows they can easily deny you everything despite whatever your piece of paper might say. And if you can't get a dispensation from your local leader in a true situation of need...maybe you should've chosen better local leaders.

Blogger sammibandit January 19, 2020 1:30 PM  

When girls and women elect to abort they are supposed to give informed consent on a form in keeping with bioethics from the Nuremberg Code and guidelines from HHS. However, we saw during the Project Veritas exposé on PP and Steven Crowder's research on PP we saw that informed consent isn't strictly enforced. This means that there's a portion, perhaps significant in number, of girls and women who were deceived into abortion. PP wouldn't have the records to show they did the work on the up-and-up. There could be a class action lawsuit there.

In addition to informed consent, bioethics requires telling the participant that they can terminate their consent at any time--even after the procedure. I'd think this is a crucial piece of information given that fetal remains are harvested for sale across state lines (which I don't think is legal per HHS).

My point here is that like we do with student loan debtors and mothers of abused starlets who have chosen to fight The ManTM, we ought to give grace and forgiveness to those who had abortions. Coming down on them and condemning them won't stop the body trade in fetal remains, nor will it help their females who surely have some misgivings. We need to build a golden bridge for these women to come out of the shadows and talk about how they were manipulated.

Blogger sammibandit January 19, 2020 1:35 PM  

I distinctly remember one lady I saw at the local free clinic our medical school helped staffed asking to have her 11th abortion. It was sickening.

I am not sure if a patient like this has the cognitive capacity necessary to provide informed consent. When you have that (many) you are not thinking rationally and somewhere down the line healthcare workers failed to alert this person to humane types of birth control. This person is being exploited by the medical industrial complex.

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare January 19, 2020 1:54 PM  

Considering that the earliest recorded premature birth was "23 weeks, 3 days" and she survived, I don't understand why they are acting like this is news.

Sorry, that was a lie. It's because they're evil, and Satanic.

"Inquisition 2: the Reburning and Flaying", when? Not soon enough.

Blogger Newscaper312 January 19, 2020 3:35 PM  

The one exception I am torn by is in the case of rape, particularly of a married woman. Numbers claiming it rarely results in pregnancy are somewhat disingenuous, masked by the fact that standard post rape treatment for hygiene is also effectively a saline abortion.
The reason I lean toward an exception (obviously earlier the better) is that this, a rape pregnancy, strikes very directly at the heart of the marriage. Literally cucking the man, and carrying to term even with an intent to put up for adoption creates a wedge between the mand and woman as everything in her biology works to bond her to another man's child. Not to mention that in terms of biology, the rapist *wins*.

Blogger Uncle_Ted January 19, 2020 4:13 PM  

Pain is irrelevant, like allowing the Mohammedans to murder infidels as long as they use pain killers.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) January 19, 2020 4:52 PM  

i will note only that using "pain" as the delimiting factor on "personhood" means
...
that most of the people in coma wards should be taken off of life support.

as the demonic secular philosopher kings don't consider them to be "people".

Blogger John Rockwell January 19, 2020 9:52 PM  

The ultimate civilization is the Kingdom of God vs the Barbaric Kingdom of Satan.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 19, 2020 11:01 PM  

" The question is whether the fetus is a "person." "Personhood" is very vague and hard to define (probably deliberately), but it supposedly involves consciousness, sensation, or even social acceptance among ones peers."

What a person is isn't vague. I'm sure people try to use it as if it were, the same people who muddle and lie about the meanings of every other word that happens to cross their paths as well. It's all wanton and malicious legalistic sophistry at best.

The only reason the word "person" is even bandied about is because the same sort of people managed to deceive first about the meanings of soul and spirit. God breathed the spirit of life into man, raising mankind to living souls. Any definition of personhood apart from that is nothing more than an exercise in "we do what we want because we can", nothing sacred, nothing of any value.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 19, 2020 11:07 PM  

"The one exception I am torn by is in the case of rape, particularly of a married woman."

The baby isn't the rapist. Jail the rapist and make them run with a chain gang for the rest of their natural life if needful to provide the resources.

The rapist doesn't "win" anything with no future and one child who never knows them. If hubby and/or the woman's father and brothers don't care enough to make that happen, then they deserve to lose.

Regardless, I repeat, the baby is not the rapist.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 19, 2020 11:17 PM  

"Coming down on them and condemning them won't stop the body trade in fetal remains, nor will it help their females who surely have some misgivings."

It will help the females who have misgivings to determine that it's a poor decision.

For the rest, allowing offenders to repeat is not viable, period. There are either consequences or there's no law. Maybe a lot of them wouldn't need examples, I don't know, however there are always going to be some examples that need to be made and people for whom there is no other use.

If she's participated in the murder of her baby four times or more already, there's no way she's going to do anything other than repeat if she can, and has likely contributed to others making the same decision. That's the sort of person who needs to be made an example of. The same goes for anyone who does it even once after propriety is restored.

Blogger Valtandor Nought January 20, 2020 12:40 AM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:What a person is isn't vague. I'm sure people try to use it as if it were, the same people who muddle and lie about the meanings of every other word that happens to cross their paths as well. It's all wanton and malicious legalistic sophistry at best...Any definition of personhood apart from [God breathing the spirit of life into man, etc.] is nothing more than an exercise in "we do what we want because we can"...

The unholy combination of three principles.

1. There are such things as human beings that are not persons.

2. Moral duties are owed to, or in respect of, persons rather than human beings.

3. Lawmakers have the ability and the authority to decide which human beings are persons, and which are not. They may do so on any basis they see fit.

"Ye shall be as gods..."

Blogger The Observer January 20, 2020 1:13 AM  

My point here is that like we do with student loan debtors and mothers of abused starlets who have chosen to fight The ManTM, we ought to give grace and forgiveness to those who had abortions. Coming down on them and condemning them won't stop the body trade in fetal remains, nor will it help their females who surely have some misgivings. We need to build a golden bridge for these women to come out of the shadows and talk about how they were manipulated.

If women cannot have agency and never be held to the consequences of their actions, and likely never really will due to simple biology informing society and thirsty, weak men, then they should have the corresponding legal and social status, perhaps a little above of children. Which is pretty much how things work in the vast majority of societies that aren't in their death throes.

A man who was fooled into ordering a hit on another person doesn't get a pass. Why should anyone else?

Blogger sammibandit January 20, 2020 4:20 AM  

@Azure Amaranthine

You raise a good point here,

If she's participated in the murder of her baby four times or more already, there's no way she's going to do anything other than repeat if she can, and has likely contributed to others making the same decision.

The contributing to counsel others into abortion enhances rather than diminishes wickedness and wasn't something I considered until you brought it up. It makes me think that cognitive ability has little to no bearing on capacity for wickedness, and I can think of no Western system pagan or Abrahamic that suffers fools.

The same goes for anyone who does it even once after propriety is restored.

It's funny. In my earlier comment I implied that if it were legal to trade in body parts I would have no issue. I don't know if you intended to highlight that blindspot by pointing out that we follow the law of man rather than the Law of Our Heavenly Father.

@The Observer

You raise a good point here,

... then they should have the corresponding legal and social status, perhaps a little above of children. Which is pretty much how things work in the vast majority of societies that aren't in their death throes.

After being convinced by Azure that not punishing wickedness, even if the wicked are fools, is more in keeping with the Law of Our Lord I'm not sure that your approach is a problem. Perhaps once propiety is restored it would make sense to change the status of women.

Blogger RedJack January 20, 2020 7:19 AM  

I saw my child at age of 14 weeks (In the womb). The ultrasound showed her in some distress. Her face is the same now at age 5. We know Little Bear could hear and feel at that age. Her heart rate jumped when her sister came into the room at the NICU, and not in a "distressed" way. Little Bear felt pain, and had the hints of the same personality she has now. I suspect that is why she lived, she just wanted to keep going.

Infanticide is evil. Always. Infanticide practiced because of convenience is worst. Even the Romans hated Moloch.

Either we start treating people as individuals capable of making decisions and being held accountable, or we roll back this whole freedom thing. I suspect the elite have decided on the latter course.

Blogger RedJack January 20, 2020 7:24 AM  

@42

My neighbor's adopted daughter was the product of rape of a married woman. Go tell her you think it is ok for her to pay for a sin she did not commit. Just be warned, she is a Nebraskan, armed, and a bit if a wildcat. And her husband is too.

The kid did nothing wrong. Find the rapist, hang him.

Blogger Akulkis January 20, 2020 1:02 PM  

@54

"My neighbor's adopted daughter was the product of rape ... and a bit if a wildcat."

That literally goes without saying.

What kind of genes do you think come from a rapist?

You're damaging your argument to keep and raise children produced by rape.

Personally, I'm neutral on that subject, and against all other abortions other than in the cases of ectopic pregnancies.

Blogger Unknown January 20, 2020 3:26 PM  

@rek does it matter?

Using logical assumption, it is easy to reach the conclusion that the biomechanical hardware required to provide the human brain with the pain sensation exists at some point before birth.

Given how difficult and unethical it would be to confirm through "experimentation" on fetuses exactly when that point is, making "but when???" queries is not a rabbit hole down which I will be joining in your freefall.

Blogger WarKicker January 20, 2020 4:42 PM  

"What a person is isn't vague. I'm sure people try to use it as if it were, the same people who muddle and lie about the meanings of every other word that happens to cross their paths as well. It's all wanton and malicious legalistic sophistry at best."

Agreed. See Peter Singer.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 20, 2020 5:28 PM  

"What kind of genes do you think come from a rapist?

You're damaging your argument to keep and raise children produced by rape."


If genes cause all actions of people via strict determinism, allow me to ask, have you ever done anything wrong at all? If so you're tainted and deserving of death. An unborn child on the other hand, has not done anything wrong.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 20, 2020 6:22 PM  

"You're damaging your argument to keep and raise children produced by rape."

No, we'd be destroying the argument to murder them. Are you not familiar with Roe vs Wade? Even though it was a lie that rape had occurred, it was still the rationalization used, the narrow end of the wedge.

Blogger sammibandit January 20, 2020 9:53 PM  

I think I'll pull out story #47 for this thread.

I have an obviously Russian-type uncle born as the first child to a Germanic. Reading between the lines should tell you this wasn't a marriage-birth. Yet my grandma married an Austrian man when she was pregnant in East Germany, circa 1946. They went on to have 3 more children. That uncle has 3 kids and has 3 grandkids. The sperm donor to him? Who cares?

Since the argument was not whether it's wicked to abort this type of birth but rather it's dysgenic I've shown that my uncle is responsible for creating 6 more lives in his own line. And if every man thought that rape babies are tainted it's not far off to think their mothers are tainted. That would cut off 3 more lives for a total of 10 lives not lived because of one rape baby. I'm glad there's people who know we're more than the sum of our parts.

Blogger Yukichi Sensei January 21, 2020 12:29 AM  

Pain metric in medicine, and for abortions, as many here have said, is always a red herring.

Abortion is wrong on a metaphysical, spiritual, and philosophical level. Only truly self-deluded moderns can see it as a good.

To be fair to them, I had a period of my life where I could not see it clearly either. Find God, or Kant, or Pre-Enlightenment philosophy.

Blogger RedJack January 21, 2020 7:33 PM  

She is from the area I grew up in. "Wildcats" is about the the norm.

Her parents are a bit of the same. Nice people. Church going. Drive like they are on fire and shoot better than most.

Her adoptive brother is also from a similar situation (at least that is what his birth mom said). He is the biggest teddy bear I have ever met.

On a more personal note, I take after my grandfather. My aunt does not. Grandparents are long gone, but we are not going to open that can of worms via genetic testing. All they would say is WWII was long.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts