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Thursday, January 16, 2020

What did I tell you?

Did I not say that Patreon was going to change its terms of use again before the end of February?
From: The Patreon team
Subject: Updates to our policies
Date: 16 January 2020

As part of our ongoing commitment to privacy and to comply with the California Consumer Privacy Act (“CCPA”), we are updating our Privacy Policy. We are also taking this opportunity to update our Terms of Use and Benefit Guidelines.
Now how could I know that? Here is another prediction. They will change them again before the end of March....

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47 Comments:

Blogger lowercaseb January 16, 2020 7:06 PM  

I work near the Patreon HQ. I better invest in a hardhat when I leave work because of all the bouncing rubble.

Blogger Ska_Boss January 16, 2020 7:24 PM  

You must be very sure of your legal team to be giving the defendant advice regarding holes in their TOS.

Blogger Crew January 16, 2020 7:33 PM  

@1: I feel sorry for you. Does the ever increasing stench of human excrement affect you?

Blogger Uncle John's Band January 16, 2020 7:36 PM  

Oh you didn't know? Your a$$ better call somebody!!!

Blogger Akulkis January 16, 2020 7:58 PM  

"You must be very sure of your legal team to be giving the defendant advice regarding holes in their TOS."

Changing the TOS now won't make one whit of difference on what the TOS was when Patreon went SJW on Vox and friends.

Blogger Player 2 January 16, 2020 8:29 PM  

If Vox gets any better at this he's soon going to pull a Lou Gerhig and tell a sick kid exactly what he'll change Paetreon's terms to for him.

"Hey Mr. Vox, can you make them say you can't use Patreon if you own a skunk."

"Sure thing kid. It'll be in the April update."

Blogger Doktor Jeep January 16, 2020 8:33 PM  

Where do I send money to fund the next book: "Best in Life: How to crush your enemies and see them driven before you" by Vox Day.
Seriously, I heard of another case of someone losing their job because of liking Trump on social(ist) media all because "one person complained" and gave the place of employment a bad review. And was the the victim doing? Ineffectively mewling on infowars about it.
If it's possible for people to complain about their candidate choice every November for a lifetime without knowing one thing about the party level nomination process, with all those talking heads, "conservative" commentators, and "educators" saying nothing about it and how anybody can get involved, then we are going to be seeing endless cases of people getting screwed and not one shadow of a rumor of a thought that they can do anything about it. This is where the real crime is. And the entire system appears to be all about lining up to maintain the walls of some kind of mental prison.
Somebody has to show the way. To prove that it can be done. And the enemy has no fight in them. Just fighting back is enough. They can't even handle simple debate over reality, a legal fight will drive them to mental breakdown.

Blogger Dave January 16, 2020 8:44 PM  

Effective immediately for users joining Patreon on or after December 20th, 2019. Effective for existing users on, and applicable to claims not yet asserted by, January 1st, 2020. You can find the old terms of use here.

Isn't this the same notice of "Updates to our Policies" they've been emailing out going back to December? I've received this email notice multiple times but the Dec. 20th date hasn't changed.

I'm leery of this statement, however, which is why I previously suggested the LL team archive Patreon's policies often, even daily: "We may sometimes make changes to these terms and policies. If we make material changes that adversely affect your rights, then we will let you know before the changes come into effect. Continuing to use Patreon after a change means you accept the new terms or policies."

Could this not be interpreted that if they don't believe changes adversely affect your rights, they will not advertise those changes? I know, hard to believe, but they appear to be giving themselves an out to make changes without documenting it.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 16, 2020 8:53 PM  

Dave wrote:Could this not be interpreted that if they don't believe changes adversely affect your rights, they will not advertise those changes? I know, hard to believe, but they appear to be giving themselves an out to make changes without documenting it.
in which case, the un-notified changes cannot be asserted against you.

Blogger VD January 16, 2020 8:58 PM  

Isn't this the same notice of "Updates to our Policies" they've been emailing out going back to December?

Pretty much. Now ask yourself why.

Blogger Dave January 16, 2020 9:00 PM  

Interestingly the following was added to the "Account deletion" topic:

You may not bring a claim against us for suspending or terminating another person’s account, and you agree you will not bring such a claim. If you try to bring such a claim, you are responsible for the damages caused, including attorneys fees and costs.

Another person's account including creator's accounts?

Blogger Dave January 16, 2020 9:13 PM  

This statement added to "All about being a patron" topic:

We are not required to allow you to be a patron of any particular creator.


Likewise this statement added to "All about being a creator" topic:

We are not required to allow any particular person or group of persons to be your patron.

Blogger pdwalker January 16, 2020 9:24 PM  

is there anything else we can do to help?

Blogger Canada78Bear January 16, 2020 9:28 PM  

Good thing I upgraded and filled in shipping information for the $20 level. As I don't plan to login again to modify anything I can't be forced to accept the new T&C's.

Blogger P Glenrothes January 16, 2020 10:16 PM  

The ELOE cheer: Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Blogger Newscaper312 January 16, 2020 10:41 PM  

@6 Player 2

FWIW I think you meant Babe Ruth calling where he was going to send a home rinto the stands. Point still stands of course.

Blogger Johnny January 16, 2020 10:48 PM  

>>You may not bring a claim against us for suspending or terminating another person’s account, and you agree you will not bring such a claim.<<

My non lawyer understanding of law is such that I can't understand this comment. Barring something like a class action, I don't think you can sue for somebody else. One way or another that other person has to sign on to the suit, or you are a guardian or something. And if it is legally allowable, I doubt Patreon can disallow it or collect damages.

Blogger lowercaseb January 16, 2020 10:57 PM  

Crew wrote:@1: I feel sorry for you. Does the ever increasing stench of human excrement affect you?

That why I subscribe to the David the Good channel. I've learned that it's free compost.

Now I just need to learn how to compost used needles for my tomatoes.

Blogger Scuzzaman January 16, 2020 11:04 PM  

If they terminate another’s account, and you’re damaged thereby, don’t you have cause to make a claim? Can you opt out of your rights?

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia January 16, 2020 11:30 PM  

Dave wrote:Interestingly the following was added to the "Account deletion" topic:

You may not bring a claim against us for suspending or terminating another person’s account, and you agree you will not bring such a claim. If you try to bring such a claim, you are responsible for the damages caused, including attorneys fees and costs.

Another person's account including creator's accounts?


I have read a LOT of legal documents in my Boomer life, and this too stuck out like the proverbial sore thumb.

An entity -- let's call it Castalia House -- can be different from a person -- let's call that person Vox Day.

Or vice versa.

VD wrote{

Now how could I know that? Here is another prediction. They will change them again before the end of March....

Cue one of the great songs of my Boomer youth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbBcL0ztBww

Blogger Jay Will January 16, 2020 11:47 PM  

I'd like to fight Berserker in the first round said no one ever.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 17, 2020 12:08 AM  

You may not bring a claim against us for suspending or terminating another person’s account, and you agree you will not bring such a claim.
This is almost certainly an attempt to end run around what hurt IGG so badly. It's also not legal.

Blogger Dan in Georgia January 17, 2020 12:17 AM  

Does the NDA apply to IGG as well? Looks like someone at IGG May have talked to Patreon.

Blogger Scott January 17, 2020 12:18 AM  

Off topic. I had the misfortune of debating a gamma today. He postured as someone who cared about truth and demanded evidence. I provided it. He moved the goalposts requiring even more evidence. I provided it. He refused to look at it and declared victory.

How Vox has dealt with people like this for years marvels me.

Blogger wreckage January 17, 2020 12:42 AM  

@22 It smells like illegal. And I wonder if it would even apply to tortious interference: the action is not for the closure of an account, it's for unlawful interference in a contract. I mean, I'm no lawyer, but this seems like pseudo-legal word games that don't even work as pseudo-legal word games.

Blogger Shane Bradman January 17, 2020 1:23 AM  

Patreon hadn't even heard of the CCPA before this week.

Blogger Paul M January 17, 2020 2:23 AM  

Dave wrote:You may not bring a claim against us for suspending or terminating another person’s account, and you agree you will not bring such a claim.
I rather thought that a citizen's right to appeal to the courts for redress of a wrong would override any mere commercial contract.

Blogger Shane Bradman January 17, 2020 2:55 AM  

Off topic:
Christopher Tolkien has passed away. God Bless the literary giant for continuing his father's legacy. Without him, Tolkien's stories would not have been nearly as successful. I cannot think of any finer example of a son doing proud his father.

Blogger Wazdakka January 17, 2020 4:16 AM  

Its like watching table tennis, but only one player is sweating.

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei January 17, 2020 4:33 AM  

Apparently the belief in the magical power of words is more widespread than suspected, as the hapless would-be sorcerers at Patreon obviously believe they can write an unbreakable spell of defense that wishes away not just individual rights and basic contract law, but the entire legal system.

Blogger Apoliteia January 17, 2020 5:28 AM  

@Shane Bradman: wholeheartedly agreed. CT's exemplary dedication shows in that he managed to finish "The Fall of Gondolin" just Last year.
Requiescat in pace.

Blogger JamesB.BKK January 17, 2020 5:40 AM  

Heed my amended terms of use, peon. Heed!

Blogger Akulkis January 17, 2020 9:37 AM  

@22

"This is almost certainly an attempt to end run around what hurt IGG so badly. It's also not legal."

Exactly. They can put whatever they want in a contract, but that doesn't mean a judge will will uphold any nonsense like that.

Blogger Balkan Yankee January 17, 2020 12:47 PM  

Patreon discovers the OODA Loop. And not in a good way.

Blogger James Dixon January 17, 2020 5:41 PM  

> I rather thought that a citizen's right to appeal to the courts for redress of a wrong would override any mere commercial contract.

If the court agrees, it does, as many folks have found out over the years. A company cannot limit a court's jurisdiction. Whether a given court agrees is always a question though.

Blogger Gregory the Tall January 17, 2020 6:06 PM  

Unconscionable is the word for a lot of stuff these companies force upon their users.

Blogger Gregory the Tall January 17, 2020 7:23 PM  

Btw Youtube is still taking my money for being a member of Owen's channel

Blogger Akulkis January 17, 2020 8:58 PM  

https://www.youtube.com/OwenBenjaminOfficial at the time of this comment.

Blogger Phelps January 17, 2020 9:36 PM  

@33 Especially in a contract that you had no negotiation input into. Courts have regularly disregarded "shrink wrap" contracts because one party had no opportunity to negotiate.

Blogger JamesB.BKK January 17, 2020 11:14 PM  

A particular abuse: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/oct/22/amazon-wipes-customers-kindle-deletes-account

And:
Amazon Erases Orwell Books From Kindle https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html

Blogger Gregory the Tall January 18, 2020 3:23 AM  

@38
Owenbenjaminlive in my case

Blogger Akulkis January 18, 2020 6:17 PM  

If Owenbenjaminlive has been shut down by youtube, and youtube is still charging your bank card for contributions to Owenbenjaminlive, then that constitutes wire fraud. And probably interstate as well.

FBI (yeah, I know) doesn't look on that very kindly. Fed prosecutors, on the other hand, love something like that. It can open up a whole can of worms (we have probably cause to look at ALL of the payments you are processing for channels, and see who you are collecting money for after having shut down the payee's access to the creator's material on that channel)

With a lucky assignment as to investigators, it could turn big.

Very big.

Gitmo-in-the-lower-48 big.

Talk to your local FBI office. Call at least 1 time per week until you get an investigator who does wire fraud who is interested in pursuing the case.

And use a burner phone which you never put the battery in except in a crowded shopping mall or the like... and likewise, when going to the mall to put the battery in your phone, you leave your regular phone at home. Put the battery in, make your call to the FBI, then remove the battery.

After all, you never know who is Cabal and who isn't. Especially with the FBI. Unfortunately, this kind of case is smack dab in the middle of their jurisdiction.

Blogger Gregory the Tall January 18, 2020 6:26 PM  

I live in Europe

Blogger Akulkis January 18, 2020 10:20 PM  

Contact your local police, and have them refer it to Interpol. You being in Europe could make it international wire fraud. ===> POPCORN & FIREWORKS!

Blogger Gregory the Tall January 19, 2020 3:36 AM  

Dear Akulkis, thanks for the advice, but I think in my country it would not work that way. Remember that at the moment they have taken just about 4 or 5 dollars through my phone bill. So this is what would most probably happen:
1. I would have to ask Youtube for a refund by email (and then if they do not answer by registered mail) asking for a refund within a certain deadline.
2. If they do not make the refund I could go to the police or the DA, and they would most probably say: This is a civil and not a penal case, get yourself a lawyer. Also they might tell me that I will have to prove fraudulent intent.
3. The lawyer would then write another registered letter asking for the money plus his fees.
4. If they refuse or still do not answer we can go to court which might be in another city (their country headquarters) which will mean more time and effort on my side.
5. There I would probably win and even get the travel costs to that other city refunded within certain limits. Assuming Youtube then pays the case would be regarded as closed, no reason for persecution by the DA.
Imho: The only way that my case would matter on a bigger scale would be if this were regularly happening to hundreds or thousands of people. So where are they (if any) and how can I contact them? Have a good Sunday!

Blogger Akulkis January 19, 2020 12:17 PM  

"Imho: The only way that my case would matter on a bigger scale would be if this were regularly happening to hundreds or thousands of people. So where are they (if any) and how can I contact them? Have a good Sunday!"

You think you're the only one?

These are automated systems. If they are doing it to you, then yes, they are doing it to others. At the very least, thousands of others. For example, everyone who was subscribing to the same Owen Benjamin channel that they wiped out for no reason.

It's a lot easier to rip of a million people for 2 dollars or 2 euros than it is to rip off one person for 2 million dollars or euros.

So they're stealing a little bit from a LOT of people, hoping that not a single one of you thinks it's worth the effort to complain and put a stop to it ("it's not worth my time to recover this paltry some of cash") But realize, they are using this method to gather a HUGE sum of cash.


As much as I hate class action lawyers, this would be a great class action suit, because, this case, even if all the money goes to the class action lawyers (after expenses), who cares... it means Youtube hasn't got away with it. And usually, as these things go in U.S. courts, Youtube will be forced to pay, at the very least, triple damages. And attornies fees are often counted among the damaged ("you wrongfully took X amount of money from, and then I had to pay Y amount to an attorney to recover it. My out-of-pocket damage is now X+Y.)

But as I said, this is international wire fraud, and undoubtedly interstate wire fraud concerning many accounts inside the U.S. (unless Youtube's bank and the victim subscriber's bank are in the same state)... and even then, that still counts as wire fraud.

These are all considered EXTREMELY serious crimes in the U.S., and the Trump Administration is looking for ways to give these overgrown internet giants a good solid punch in the nose. With a sledge hammer.

This sort of thing would make the consequent splatter of blood hit the walls and ceiling in all directions.

First of all, it triggers RICO (Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) law. RICO very quickly turns corporate officers felons sitting in federal prison for decades.

You've got the match. LIGHT THE FUSE.

Blogger Gregory the Tall January 19, 2020 2:25 PM  

Sounds good to me. Count me on board. It will not surprise you that I already informed certain persons...

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