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Monday, February 24, 2020

Mailvox: a suggested devotional

Our suggested devotional for Lent is by John Piper. What an absolute trainwreck. He starts by making sure that everyone knows that Jesus death was through Divine determination before creation and who killed him is irrelevant as he chose to die. But then turns around and scolds Christians for the Holocaust and the Crusades.

If it's all decreed without human choice being involved then all of it, including the aforementioned, was just as decreed as every other atom. 

What a joke. 

It's always easy to detect the inversionists. They cannot tell the truth because, knowingly or not, they serve the Father of Lies. Piper's words directly belie the words of Jesus Christ himself. That tells you everything you need to know about the man and his teachings.

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64 Comments:

Blogger Azimus February 24, 2020 7:02 PM  

I've listen to a handful of paper messages on YouTube and he strikes me as a guy who spends far too much time cloistered in his own bubble - A classically out of touch theologian far too accustomed to conversing with himself.

Blogger Shane Bradman February 24, 2020 7:07 PM  

There are hundreds of millions of people that call themselves Christian and are anything but. Perhaps that's to be expected with 2 billion Christians around the world, but we need to start purging as soon as possible.

Blogger Fargoth February 24, 2020 7:22 PM  

Capitol Hill Baptist's Jonathan Leeman, of the same neo-calvinist genre of churchianity, wrote the following in his 2012 tome, "Church Membership".

"Being Christian means being authorized by somebody"

All you need to know.

Blogger Legacy16 February 24, 2020 7:23 PM  

Actually, who killed Jesus is not irrelevant at all. God held the Jews directly responsible, in a matter of speaking. Why? In order for the law to be fulfilled, it HAD to be the priests, and it had to happen at the exact time of day that it did. And yet, Jesus Himself, asked the Father to forgive them.

Blogger LR27 February 24, 2020 7:52 PM  

I am a hard Calvinist and that man has always given me the willies. Every time I see or hear him I immediately think “effeminate, manipulative, and without manhood.”

Blogger Chris Ritchie February 24, 2020 8:12 PM  

I've been hammering on John Piper whenever his name comes up for awhile now. A career academic, what business does he have telling people how to live? He seems to have gone from one cushy assignment to the next: Wheaton College, '64 - '68. Fuller Seminary, '68 - '71. University of Munich for his PhD '71 - '74. Bethel college professor '74 - '80. Think about that for a minute. 10 years of school ('64 - '74) and then teaching for another 6 years after that. Fully 16 years in academia before becoming a pastor.

Out of touch is an understatement. I'd rather hear from Farmer Tom, truly.

Blogger Crush Limbraw February 24, 2020 8:19 PM  

WhoTF is John Piper? And who cares?

Blogger Laramie Hirsch February 24, 2020 8:42 PM  

Seeing as how God is outside of time, I'm sure He knew that He'd have to redeem the world with His Son. But I do think the Almighty did His best to give us every chance possible to prevent that outcome.

Blogger Ziggy Brown February 24, 2020 8:54 PM  

"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”

"Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!"

God's accurate, timeless observation of human nature in the general does not absolve individuals of their responsibility to His justice. to think otherwise denies that the sons of Adam need the Resurrection. A child can see this, but John Piper won't.

Blogger Uncle John's Band February 24, 2020 9:08 PM  

Appropriate that the opposite of "start up" is "shut down".

More seriously, that Forbes list is full of obvious lemons with the lack of profit potential clear in a capsule summary. Apparently a twee name carries a lot of weight. Or it did.

Good riddance.

Blogger JovianStorm February 24, 2020 9:12 PM  

Theology is truly the stronghold of those useless to society. Piper could have been a farmer and at least contributed to society.

The words of Christ and the interpretation of the Holy Spirit are our immutable connections to our Creator. Churchians can't ever seem to understand this very very simple fact.

Blogger Sargent.matrim February 24, 2020 9:28 PM  

I went off Piper years ago. I listened to him quite a bit in my younger Christian years. I wanted to see if he could convince me that Calvinism was right.

Didn't work. So I moved on.

It mattered to the people who killed Jesus that they killed Jesus. Some of them repented. So what Piper says is just dumb.

Blogger Sargent.matrim February 24, 2020 9:29 PM  

Spot on.

Blogger mike February 24, 2020 10:07 PM  

*shrugs* He's a big deal in evangelical circles. Unfortunately far too many people care.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 24, 2020 10:11 PM  

I never heard of this Piper character. And I'm going to consider myself lucky and leave it at that.

Blogger Lazarus February 24, 2020 10:16 PM  

and who killed him is irrelevant

Who killed him is NOT irrelevant, but the whole point. They were the ones who's whole purpose of existence was to provide the environment for His manifestation.

as he chose to die.

He chose to do the will of God.

John Piper is a Lost Boy.

Blogger CS February 24, 2020 10:23 PM  

"What a joke."

Does that make Lutheranism a joke?

Luther, I understand, held that everything we do is driven by the devil and we resist evil impulses only through God's grace. Thus whether, in the end, we go to Heaven or Hell in not in our hands but God's?

While that is a scary idea, it seems consistent with reality, at least the reality that free will cannot logically exist. Rather, we will what we will, whether for good or ill, and it seems to make no sense to say that we can will to will other than we will.

But what, I wonder, do others think?

Blogger Didas Kalos February 24, 2020 10:39 PM  

Mark 16:15-20, which was begun to be fulfilled in Acts 2 onward is the mandate. Anything less is dereliction of duty.
99% of Theologians are out of touch?

Blogger MaskettaMan February 24, 2020 10:54 PM  

Jews not only killed Jesus, but tried to get the apostles killed and imprisoned many times after Jesus' death. Shows you who is and isn't actually reading his Bible.

Blogger AbnEng February 24, 2020 10:54 PM  

If you are looking for a reformed theologian, check out Robert Lewis Dabney. Of course, he has been convicted of wrong-think and purged.

For fans of Sprinkle Publications that returned Dabney to publication, sad news from Harrisonburg, Virginia is that Pastor Sprinkle passed away in 2019. I strongly recommend Dabney's biography of LTG T. J. Jackson.

Blogger jeffinjapan February 24, 2020 10:57 PM  

"Theology is truly the stronghold of those useless to society."

I understand your sentiment but this is such a dumb statement.

"The words of Christ and the interpretation of the Holy Spirit are our immutable connections to our Creator."

And whatever you believe the words of Christ mean and whatever you believe the interpretation of the Holy Spirit is, is....Theology.

Blogger Lazarus February 24, 2020 11:26 PM  

Laramie Hirsch wrote:Seeing as how God is outside of time, I'm sure He knew that He'd have to redeem the world with His Son. But I do think the Almighty did His best to give us every chance possible to prevent that outcome.

The end of Acts 28. The Jews were given one last chance to get on board. They occupied the seat of Moses. They rejected it of their own free will. What if they had chosen differently?

Fascinating.

Blogger Leo Anodos February 24, 2020 11:34 PM  

I post here rarely. Prefer to lurk and listen. I've said it in the past: Piper is cucked on matters of feminism, race, marriage, democracy, etc. He LOVES Jews and believes they can do no wrong. Huge "advocate" of Israel. He is the prototypical boomer. I fume listening to about 25% of his sermons.

BUT, he's a genius the other 75% of the time. An extremely good exegete.

Blogger Yukichi Sensei February 24, 2020 11:38 PM  

Never heard of him before this, but his voice an style drives me up a wall. A bad sign.

Responding to the comments; I have nothing wrong with theology but it needs to be tied to practice and lifestyle (ascetics). IF you preach, pastor, and pray what your theology is, God will show you if it works. As a regular folk, the same applies, practice, disciple, pray, and live. Your theology comes out in your fruits.

Blogger Yukichi Sensei February 24, 2020 11:41 PM  

Oh God. Just look up his youtube channel and the recent video, "Live for your Greatest Desire: Jesus" If the stage does not turn you off, I do not know what does.

Perhaps I spent too many times going to a "festival" to see the selling tickets not saving souls type of thing.

Blogger FrankNorman February 24, 2020 11:54 PM  

So Piper on the one hand basically says don't blame the Jews for anything, then on the other hand he wants to blame all Christians everywhere for loads of things including stuff we had literally nothing to do with?
To me that's a big hint as to which team does man is playing on.

But I have seen this sort of thing before with calvinist preachers and theologians. They seem uninterested in reaching the world with the gospel but very interested in demoralizing those who are already believers.

Blogger Uncle_Ted February 25, 2020 12:07 AM  

I wonder which angel has to report on this joker.

Blogger Zaklog the Great February 25, 2020 1:06 AM  

who killed him is irrelevant as he chose to die.

I'll probably be awarded sarcastic smart-boy points for this, but oh well. I don't think he's entirely wrong about this. I suspect that Jesus could have come to any human society at any point in history, and the only variation in the outcome would have been our method of killing him.

At the same time, it is a fact of history that Jews were the ones agitating for his death. And those who are Jews today are the heirs of the ones who affirmed this by refusing to accept the Gospel, and built much of their identity and theology on this rejection, so that's a real problem.

Blogger Stilicho February 25, 2020 1:11 AM  

I mostly ignored Piper, even in the days of the calvinist debates, as just another deluded pre-destinationist (seriously, it doesn't take much cognitive ability to understand the difference between an omniscient God knowing how you will exercise free will and God simply determining whether you will be saved or not... yet calvinists cant or wont). But this nonsense is luciferian distortion of scripture.

Look, theres a fair bit of scripture I struggle with, we all do (turn the other cheek? Damned near impossible. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword? Sounds... fair. god judges a man by what is in his heart... oh crap, i'm screwed... etc) but I dont try to pretend it says the oposite of what is in it.

Blogger cyrus83 February 25, 2020 2:32 AM  

The nature of free will has twisted many minds into pretzels.

That said, a good Lenten devotion is not that hard to arrive at. Add some additional time for prayer and Scripture/devotional reading, do some fasting, give alms to those in the community (ideally with a sacrifice of time rather than just cutting a check).

Blogger Kiwi February 25, 2020 4:14 AM  

Sounds like someone has lost their marbles.

Blogger wreckage February 25, 2020 4:54 AM  

So, he doesn't appear to understand Calvin, and he doesn't read history.
What exactly did he DO as an academic all those years?

Blogger Shield up sword swinging pipes blasting February 25, 2020 5:02 AM  

Galatians Chapter 1 verse 10

do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Blogger Shane Bradman February 25, 2020 5:28 AM  

CS, free will is observably true. Continue solving this in your head from there.

Blogger Robert Browning February 25, 2020 6:46 AM  

What is the promise of the Jew religion to the Jew people? every religion offers a benefit as a way to draw people to the religion so what benefit does Judaism offer Jews?

Answer--- Christ was the son of God and Christ did chose to die but Christ chose to die rather than enslave human kind for the Jews. And Christ in choosing to die for ever destroyed the schemes and designs of the Jewish people. Forever. Do you understand why the Jews hate Christ and are waging an all out war to destroy Christ and Christianity? Christ is in the way. With Christ in this world the Jews will never be able to attain their goals. So Christianity must be destroyed. Have you ever seen such an obnoxious offensive people? Are they human?

Blogger Cataline Sergius February 25, 2020 7:25 AM  

Calvinist Tech Guy Assures Church His Mistakes Were Ordained Before The Foundation Of The World

Blogger JG February 25, 2020 7:27 AM  

The notion that Jesus of Nazareth didn't have free will is simply and stupidly wrong. He was not a mindless automaton running a predefined resurrection script. He was the manifestation of God on Earth. The Jews who put him to death had the free will to put Jesus on the cross or not.

We see through a glass darkly, but not on this matter, which is self evident in the Gospels.

Blogger ZhukovG February 25, 2020 7:46 AM  

If one claims to believe in the absolute sovereignty of God; one should take care not to try and shove God in a human made box with the word 'Sovereignty' written on it in crayon.

If God chooses to give his creatures free will; then they have free will.
If God chooses not to know a particular future; then He does not know that future.
If God chooses to mold events to a particular outcome; the outcome is assured.

As much as it may hurt human pride, I think the universe is best viewed as a game God is playing for his own amusement. He may intervene, if it pleases Him to do so.

When I play a computer game, I will generally avoid reading Walkthroughs or using Cheat Commands as it spoils my enjoyment. Likewise, I suspect God chooses not to always know what's going to happen.

As for time, I think that it is not so much that God is outside time, but rather that time is irrelevant to Him. A thing may not be true for all eternity; then God acts and the thing then becomes true for all eternity. Time, as we experience it, is just another part of God's creation.

Blogger Student in Blue February 25, 2020 7:58 AM  

@CS

Nothing I've read by Luther or by the various Lutheran pastors says anything like that. That's definitely more of a reformed type understanding. Perhaps ELCA, those Lutherans In Name Only, profess that.

Blogger PJW Gent February 25, 2020 7:59 AM  

Truth in the words of men are hard to come by and even harder to hold onto. Even when we apprehend the truth we begin immediately to twist it to adhere to our own notions and what we pass along has been leavened into something else. That is the sad state of living in a fallen world where the "old man" of our fallen nature continually seeks to usurp the truth and its demands in our lives. Not sure this is true? The read Roman chapter 7 see how even Paul had to deal with this reality.

Blogger CM February 25, 2020 8:00 AM  

Its Gentile Guilt.

He knows in his heart of hearts the inversion is here.

The first will be last, the last will be first. He came for the Jews first.

And Piper feels guilty about it.

You know, you can have compassion on a group without feeling guilty for that you should be thankful for.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums February 25, 2020 8:18 AM  

CS wrote:Luther, I understand, held that everything we do is driven by the devil and we resist evil impulses only through God's grace. Thus whether, in the end, we go to Heaven or Hell in not in our hands but God's?

The personification of Evil leads to putting God and the Devil/Satan/Lucifer on the same level which is heretical. Evil is what you get in the absence of God. Hell and Heaven are the same place, the difference being that the wicked feel God's light as torment. This is what we see in the world, where bad people consider the nuclear family evil. They're not lying, they just equate evil with pain and good is literally corrosive to their nature. Therefore free-will has to exist otherwise Evil will also have to be from God, and if Evil is from God then Heaven and Hell should not exist. Something cannot be something and the opposite of that something (or "not" that something) at the same time. If there's no free will everything becomes incoherent.

CS wrote:While that is a scary idea, it seems consistent with reality, at least the reality that free will cannot logically exist. Rather, we will what we will, whether for good or ill, and it seems to make no sense to say that we can will to will other than we will.

This is some Sam Harris bullshit where all he does is equate free will with omnipotence.

Blogger Pontificus Maximus February 25, 2020 8:45 AM  

Piper’s a leading proponent of Calvinism, so no surprise.

From Dr. Ken Wilson’s excellent, short book summarizing his unprecedented doctoral thesis “The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism”, Appendix 1 (the last line is the best):

I've always been a Calvinist: What do I do now?

If you are a Calvinist, this book should not cause you to abandon your faith. Apostasy from Calvinism does not mean you are not one of the elect. It does mean you value truth over tradition. Augustine is rightly a father of the Roman Catholic Church and respected as a philosopher in western civilization. Augustine still held firmly to the essentials of Christianity. But that does not mean everything he taught was correct. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach Augustine's determinism. One should appreciate Augustine for his contributions to Christianity while recognizing he stepped out of bounds when fighting the Pelagians.

If you understand the pagan sources of Augustine's conversion to determinism, you should consider leaving Augustinian-Calvinism. Augustine was the only Christian bishop in history known to have been heavily influenced as a young man by participating in the three most highly deterministic systems that have ever existed—Gnostic Manichaeism, Neoplatonism, and Stoicism. Augustine's deterministic ideas did not come from the apostle Paul (a Pharisee who believed in free choice). Over fifty earlier Christian authors fought against those fated philosophies by teaching free choice. This new knowledge of how and why Augustine moved back into pagan determinism should greatly concern us. When these facts are combined with the knowledge that both Luther and Calvin mistakenly believed Augustine was merely teaching what all the earliest church fathers taught, Augustinian-Calvinism is exposed as built upon an unstable foundation of pagan sand.

Beginning with "God is sovereign" is not a Christian, but a Stoic foundation of philosophical theology. All other major Christian groups outside of Calvinism hold forth as primary what I believe to be a more important element of theology: "God is love." We should choose to love the God who first loved ALL of humanity (every human equally) and we should choose to love the humanity that God loves.

Every religion and every philosophy has difficulties and problems. None are perfect. Every human, including me, makes mistakes. Keep this book handy when you read "deterministic" passages so you can see how early Christians interpreted them instead of how Gnostics and Manichaeans misinterpreted them. Their pagan god was non-relational. Instead, embrace a loving Christian God who invites you to choose, not a pagan god who hypnotizes you to change your mind.

Blogger Pontificus Maximus February 25, 2020 9:11 AM  

“Bondage of the Will” is straight from Augustine, which is straight from Manichean Stoicism. It was unanimously considered to be heresy by the early church—and by Augustine himself for the first 25 years of his bishopric. It was rightly rejected by Eastern Orthodoxy, and even official Catholicism to this day, as anti-biblical. See Dr. Ken Wilson’s excellent, short book, “The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism”

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 25, 2020 9:20 AM  

@43 yes, yes. "Invites you to choose". Except we always choose wrong, being the obstinate children we are. I'll stay in awe of the loving Christian God that chooses us despite our constant rebellion.

Then of course the next claim is this is tyrannical and you want no part of it, then my rebuttal goes...and we're off to the races again.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 25, 2020 9:29 AM  

@26. "They seem uninterested in reaching the world with the gospel".

Look cuz, there are PLENTY of charges that can be levelled at the Reformed. Will readily admit and accept that.

This one is just a tired, bored throwaway. No effort or thought to just toss out and smugly flounce away.

How did the Reformed faith spread, and why are there still Reformed missionaries and outreaches? If you want more focus on evangelism, great. I want more emphasis on theological foundations that the charismatics seem "uninterested in". Neither charge is anything but empty rhetoric and caterwauling on personal preference.

Blogger Pontificus Maximus February 25, 2020 9:31 AM  

Kevin Thompson, a former Calvinist, has a lot of good videos available on his YouTube channel, Beyond The Fundamentals. And free slide PDFs on his website. “Why You Became a Calvinist” is a great title to start with.

Blogger Pontificus Maximus February 25, 2020 9:33 AM  

Kevin Thompson, a former Calvinist, has a lot of good videos available on his YouTube channel, Beyond The Fundamentals. And free slide PDFs on his website. “Why You Became a Calvinist” is a great title to start with. The blessings of Christ be upon you, Brother. —a former Lutheran

Blogger Stilicho February 25, 2020 10:14 AM  

Luther's oroblem with free will centered on hi (scripturally correct) assertion that we do not have the power to effect our own salvation (no man is righteous, we are sved by grace through faith, etc.). In his zeal to dispute the heretical teaching of salvation through works, he probably went to far in the other direction which then led Calvin to go further still. However, Luther was adamant (and correct) on his main point: Jesus Christ effects our salvation, not us. Beyond that, we just end up debating how many Calvinists can dance on the head of an election. Through a glass darkly indeed.

Blogger jamsco February 25, 2020 10:27 AM  

I suspect, Vox, that if you actually read Piper's devotional you'd (1) agree with 85% of it, and (2) see that the above description is whole inaccurate and deceptive.

Blogger VD February 25, 2020 10:30 AM  

Every single thing of Piper's I've read to date has not only been materially wrong, but egregiously so to the point of being insulting to the intelligence.

I still haven't forgotten how tornadoes are the murderous fingers of the Jesus Christ as he slays the innocent and the wicked alike as per God's perfect plan.

Blogger jamsco February 25, 2020 10:39 AM  

I see you haven't forgotten it, nor did you learn it from him. He said nothing of the sort. Read it again.

Confirmation bias is real.

Next time you say something bad about Piper (or you know, anyone) I'd encourage you to consider using his actual words. Just like you would like people to do for you.

Blogger VD February 25, 2020 10:52 AM  

You claimed that Piper "said nothing of the sort", Jamsco. That may or may not be true. But he certainly WROTE it.

"Why would God reach down his hand and drag his fierce fingers across rural America, killing at least 38 people with 90 tornadoes in 12 states, and leaving some small towns with scarcely a building standing, including churches?

"God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows. If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.

"Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.

"But before Jesus took any life in rural America, he gave his own on the rugged cross."


Did John Piper write that Jesus killed those 38 people who died in the 90 tornadoes mentioned in "Fierce Tornadoes and the Fingers of God"?

Blogger jamsco February 25, 2020 10:59 AM  

Apologies, Vox. I didn't know he'd written this. Obviously I agree with what he says here (and I think it's biblical), but you're correct - he wrote it.

And thanks for using his actual words.

Blogger VD February 25, 2020 11:04 AM  

Apologies, Vox. I didn't know he'd written this.

NP.

Thanks for using his actual words.

I almost always do. I generally refrain from taking an opinion unless and until I read something for myself.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 25, 2020 11:29 AM  

CS wrote:Luther, I understand, held that everything we do is driven by the devil and we resist evil impulses only through God's grace. Thus whether, in the end, we go to Heaven or Hell in not in our hands but God's?
God offers His grace to all. Some accept what He offers. Some spurn God, and go off on their own. We call that hell.
Robert Browning wrote:With Christ in this world the Jews will never be able to attain their goals. So Christianity must be destroyed. Have you ever seen such an obnoxious offensive people? Are they human?
God makes them human. The god of this world undoes that as far as he can. If you don't accept Jesus of Nazareth as your messiah and lord, you're playing for the other team. Jews are just a little more open about it than the Churchians.
ZhukovG wrote:When I play a computer game, I will generally avoid reading Walkthroughs or using Cheat Commands as it spoils my enjoyment. Likewise, I suspect God chooses not to always know what's going to happen.
Mark 13:32 is an example of that:But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus, God incarnate, chose not to know the hour of His return. Another example is God choosing to put our sins far from Him, and not remember them.

Blogger Cinco February 25, 2020 11:55 AM  

"Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.


I do not doubt the Lord’s power for a moment, but have we forgotten the lesson that was learned through Job?

“ Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?“
-Job 1:10

Now why would God have to put “hedges” around his favorite sheep, if God was the one sending all of the tornados? Answer: while God had the authority/divine right to do His will, there exists an evil ruler of this world that has his own agenda. The faithful get special privileges, it’s that simple.

Blogger Akulkis February 25, 2020 12:02 PM  

"At the same time, it is a fact of history that Jews were the ones agitating for his death. And those who are Jews today are the heirs of the ones who affirmed this by refusing to accept the Gospel, and built much of their identity and theology on this rejection, so that's a real problem."

About 20 years ago, my mom (late Silent) travelled to some event by plane. After she returned home, she said that on the plane trip back to Michigan, the woman sitting next to her said that her (either goal or greatest desire, I can't remember which at the moment) is the destruction of Christianity, and that she works at it every day.
My mom was both puzzled and somewhat horrified that anybody would come out and say such a thing.

At the time, it never occurred to me to ask my mom to describe this woman, appearance-wise, because I think that would be a rather interesting data-point.

Blogger CS February 25, 2020 2:10 PM  

@ Student at the Blue

"Nothing I've read by Luther or by the various Lutheran pastors says anything like that."

Based on "Martin Luther: Renegade and Prophet" by Lyndal Roper. Surprised me, but is she wrong in her understanding?

Do Lutherans not believe that salvation is dependent on God's grace? According to Roper, that is what Luther said, although he tried not to worry about it!

Blogger CS February 25, 2020 2:13 PM  

"God offers His grace to all. Some accept what He offers. Some spurn God, and go off on their own. We call that hell."

OK, that's good. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Blogger Unknown February 25, 2020 2:40 PM  

Piper is a mixed bag. I use to listen to a lot of his sermons online. I found his exposition of Romans 3 and 4 especially helpful when considering the matter of imputed vs infused righteousness (Protestant and Roman Catholic views on Justification).

I also benefitted from some of his teaching on roles of males and females (the complementation view). I had been raised as an Evangelical egalitarian, and found the complementation view more Biblically faithful.

I now regard the complementation view as a dishonest compromise itself. The Biblical view of sex seems to be patriarchy. None of these "conservative Boomer pastors" can seem to admit that.

Piper does say a lot of wacky stuff. He seems very emotionally driven (kind of female). Much of what he believes cannot be supported Biblically. He is terrible on guns. He seems bad on Israel, bad on racial issues, and weak on sex, marriage, and gender.

I found his book on missions profoundly helpful. Paradigm shifting

Full disclosure, I lean Calvinisty, but much prefer the 5 Silas to the 5 points.

Blogger Up from the pond February 25, 2020 2:49 PM  

Yes. They are blameless for rejecting Christ every hour because there is no free will and they can't help it. On the other hand, you and I stand guilty as charged for choosing to gas a million of them eight decades years ago.

How strange the doctrine of predestination sounds in the mouth of a celebrated churchian.

Blogger Student in Blue February 25, 2020 5:55 PM  

@59. CS

Like @56. Ominous Cowherd succinctly said, "God offers His grace to all. Some accept what He offers. Some spurn God, and go off on their own. We call that hell."

The free will is there in the fact that people in their sin and free will can reject God's grace.

And who the hell is Lyndal Roper?
"Australian historian and academic. Author of a variety of groundbreaking works on witchcraft." Ah. Somewhere else it says she was raised Presbyterian. It's always a bit sketchy.

As for the book, the most helpful review of that book on Amazon is a 3 star and the guy has clearly read the book. He points out some deficiencies in her book rather convincingly.

Blogger John February 25, 2020 7:50 PM  

@17, @43

Regarding the various false and otherwise nonsensical comments regarding Lutheranism, the Lutheran Confessions directly address and absolutely reject and condemn Calvinism. The Lutheran Confessions absolutely reject and condemn the Stoics and Manichaeans. Ever since there was an official "Lutheran" confession, it has always affirmed that God wills all men to be saved, that man (once regenerated by the Holy Spirit) must cooperate with God in daily repentance, and that saving Faith can be lost.

There is an entire chapter in the Formula of Concord concerning free will. Unfortunately the online version uses archaic English. http://bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#II

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