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Saturday, February 01, 2020

Making the omega

It's interesting to see how social scientists are stumbling, slowly, toward recognizing the socio-sexual hierarchy:
There is also a dark side to the social world of middle school, as anyone who has been through it will remember. Sixth graders who do not have friends are at risk of anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem. About 12 percent of the 6,000 sixth graders in Juvonen’s study were not named as a friend by anyone else. They had no one to sit with at lunch and no one to stick up for them when bullied. Of that group, boys outnumbered girls nearly two to one, and African American and Latino students were more likely to be friendless than white kids.

Inspired by the University of Chicago social psychologists John Cacioppo and Louise Hawkley’s work on perceived social isolation and the sense of threat that comes with it, Juvonen and her student Leah Lessard investigated whether perceptions of social threat could explain the mental-health difficulties that beset friendless middle schoolers. Their hypothesis was that not having friends in sixth grade triggered a greater sense of threat in seventh grade, which led to increased internalizing difficulties, such as depression and anxiety, by eighth grade. Their research confirmed that theory: It wasn’t friendlessness alone that created problems, it was the resulting sense of threat.

Then there is bullying, which Juvonen has studied extensively. “Friendships take place in this larger context where there’s a status hierarchy,” she told me. “Kids know very well which kinds of kids are friends with one another and where they stand in that overall status hierarchy.” Most of the time, bullying is a very strategic effort to gain and maintain status, she said.
Omegas are those who retreat from the hierarchy or are rejected by it. Gammas are those who manage to stay inside the hierarchy by strategic alliances with "friends" who are not actually friends. That is the primary dividing line between the two.

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152 Comments:

Blogger Joe Smith February 01, 2020 1:38 PM  

Of course modern Science! can't recognize the SSH: they don't believe in empiricism. Social "scientists" won't get around to admitting aspects of the SSH until someone figures out a social manifold with potential minima in the Omega sector and maxima in the Alpha sector. Great discoveries, in 20 years, will be stable Bravo and Delta regions. And even then, they'll get demonstrably true things wrong because they're not allowed to look at the world and draw obvious conclusions.

Blogger Cetera February 01, 2020 1:43 PM  

Is Gamma-ness and Omega-ness a learned trait from childhood, then? Is it possible to train one's children at an earlier age how to normalize from gamma to delta, or even beyond?

Blogger Student in Blue February 01, 2020 1:49 PM  

Gamma-ness and Omega-ness is not a learned trait, per se, as there are certain types of boys that are more likely to become a Gamma or an Omega, but those who are predisposed are not automatically locked in to being a Gamma or an Omega.

It's more like alcoholism and how there's a gene that makes it more likely to run afoul of that.

Blogger Stephen February 01, 2020 1:50 PM  

I watched a few recent South Park episodes and was interested in the metamorphosis of Cartman's character from a fat bully to a fat, bullying Machiavellian, psychotic genius (he gets revenge on an older kid by feeding his parents to him). He's also had a girlfriend. In some ways, he's quite gamma; but he's become the pinnacle of the successful antihero, and almost a sigma...its quite extraordinary how much the Parkers can get away with using the Cartman character.

Blogger MATT February 01, 2020 1:55 PM  

I dont know that I'd call it "Omega-ness". Their entire being just repels others. Always on a different frequency. It isnt any one thing. Nothing congruent about their qualities. Offputting in newrly every way. Unless something changes with the onset of puberty, like displays of atheleticism, and the emergence of Flock of Seagulls hair, Omegas will remain Omegas.

Gammas have just enough social skills to pretend to be normal so they dig in before everyone realizes they should have ignored them from the beginning.

Blogger Long Live The West February 01, 2020 2:00 PM  

Odss are they won't recognize it until a younger generation makes recognizing hierarchy their 'trend of the year'.

Social scientists themselves won't change anything. Only record what they see.

Blogger CCP February 01, 2020 2:22 PM  

How can you identify a middle school Omega vs Sigma?

Blogger Lance E February 01, 2020 2:22 PM  

I see that they are still refusing to control for genetics, as usual. In fact, not a single mention of the word "control" except in the context of "controlling stress".

Surely it couldn't possibly be the case that depression, anti-social behavior, and suicidal ideation are all related at the biological level. Impossible! We just need a few more interventions and all of our public-schooling problems will be solved!

Blogger AJB February 01, 2020 2:22 PM  

Vox, you really need to write a book summarizing all of this. Betas, deltas, gammas, omegas... I've lost track of what traits belong to which group.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 01, 2020 2:23 PM  

... and African American and Latino students were more likely to be friendless than white kids.

Obviously, those Glorious People of Color kids would have friends and be happy if they weren't being forced into schools with those nasty White kids. We need special, exclusive GPoC schools for these wonderful, oppressed GPoC children, no ikky Whites allowed.

Blogger Nym Coy February 01, 2020 2:24 PM  

My 7 year old is gamma. He will stew and look to get revenge even over minor insults, he'll lie to save face and then pretend it was a joke, and he avoids things he might fail at. I assure you we didn't teach him these behaviors. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to soccer practice, but you can't make him try.

Blogger Amethyst Dominica February 01, 2020 2:35 PM  

I've noticed there's an uptick in bullying when you go from elementary school, where you share the same class on all subjects with the same group of kids for the year, to Junior/Senior High, where you have different classes by subject. It takes more effort to maintain friendships in that environment. Also, puberty kicks in and status striving begins in earnest. The quickest, laziest way to gain status is by kicking down on those below you, and the most brutal practitioners in that regard are those who are one step up from the bottom rung. Omegas are at the very bottom, while Gammas are the next to the bottom, with a few of the more talented ones worming their way into the mid-tier and upper levels. I suspect most toadies and apple-polishers (those who go running to the teacher tattling on their fellow children,) are Gammas.

Blogger Newscaper312 February 01, 2020 2:46 PM  

Evo psych has a bad reputation around here, but the parts that are heavily based on studying all of the known most primitive human groups, plus comparisons w animals that have both similar and different sexual patterns along with game theory, actually *agrees* with elements of the SSH and traditional views of morality and sex roles.
Both a bit older, but I would recommend science popularizer Matt Ridley's The Red Queen, and his Origins of Virtue.
The left social science types who claim a blank slate, everything is just culture independent of biology, or "just animals" pointing to bonobos, to promote destruction are idea hijackers.

Blogger Rek. February 01, 2020 2:48 PM  

Girls.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 01, 2020 2:54 PM  

@11

You guys got angry with him when he was growing up and parented him in general with a spirit of resentment. Watch JLP and forgive your parents, then you can hopefully begin leading him in the right direction again.

Blogger Jose Miguel February 01, 2020 2:57 PM  

@CCP

Are there middle school girls who are following him around at recess? Does he get invited to sleepovers that he turns down cause he has something else that he'd rather do? Do people sit with him at lunch?

If in a competitive sport like little league, do his teammates, except the captain, like him? If not, at recess is he one of the first kids picked in pick up basketball or soccer?

Does he do what he wants regardless of the possibility of failure? Is he getting sent to detention a lot for doing his own thing?

If the answer is yes, congratulations you have a cold-hard sigma on your hands. If the answer is no and your kid doesn't bathe, you should get him to do a sparring centered martial art to build confidence followed by a contact team sport where he can find a natural place in the hierarchy of the team. And make him use soap and brush his hair regularly. Teach him to ask girls questions about themselves so that she talks about herself instead of talking to girls about his miniature dioramas he's spent hundreds of hours on at home the entire time.

Blogger Lamarck Leland February 01, 2020 3:00 PM  

I used to be an alpha in high school but since then I've fully retreated into omega, without regrets. Women still find me atractive but I'm only focused on working and studying.

Apparently some people become more introverted with age but I've been taking it to the extreme.

I've met people witht the story opposite to mine, that is, bulied omega in high school and alpha in adulthood, and they still look insecure and unhappy.

Blogger Shakey February 01, 2020 3:06 PM  

"How can you identify a middle school Omega vs Sigma?"

The Sigma will have friends. They will participate in school life to the degree that it's required to not get attention from the system any more than is needed. They'll be outside the normal hierarchy, but the hierarchy will still attempt to include them in it, but to no avail. Put simply, the Sigma just won't care about the normal school hierarchy beyond the bare minimum required to get through the day peacefully.

Attempts may be made to bring the Sigma into the school hierarchy in some way, but they will be met with resistance and ultimately failure. This will probably lead to a detente of some sort, where the Alpha's and the Sigma more or less end up ignoring each other. This will suit the Sigma fine, as they don't want to have a damn thing to do with any of it and are quite happy with the friends and life that they currently have. Alternatively, the Sigma may unintentionally initiate a conflict (or perhaps more appropriately, prompt a reaction from the Alpha) by "stepping out of line" in some way. Perhaps trying to date above his level or something. This can play out in a number of ways, but it's an assurance that the Sigma will not back down to the Alpha, and on some occasions can supplant the Alpha via victory over him. even if the Sigma "loses" though, he will still have fought back, and probably in such a fashion that the Alpha he fought ultimately expended more energy than he thought he would, making it a Pyrrhic victory of sorts.

It also sort of depends on the situation. If you've got a healthy Alpha involved with the Sigma in say, a sports situation, then you're much more likely to see a traditional hierarchy occur. If the Sigma is objectively better at something than the Alpha, the Sigma will likely take over an Alpha role in that realm while the Alpha will adopt a Beta or Delta role without issue. You see this a lot in team sports, especially stuff that has a lot more freedom within the context of the team (i.e. basketball or soccer).

My source on this is years of experience working with kids in school. After awhile you start to pick up on the patterns and connections, and when I learned about the SSH a few years ago a lot of what I saw started to click with what Vox had observed.

Blogger Long Live The West February 01, 2020 3:12 PM  

Just like the 60's! We'll cure racism in no time!

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 01, 2020 3:16 PM  

The question that needs to be asked is, is mental health condition what makes an omega, or is being an omega a cause of the mental health condition?

Here at the factory they know the answer. The answer is "yes".

BTW they just had to throw in the black and Latino (suffer the most) routine. This has as much to do with socioeconomics and dense populations even within a race. Without getting into too much Sperg on the matter, it can simply be boiled down to "relate". When you are the son of a near broke all the time construction worker surrounded by sons of bankers, lawyers, and doctors there won't be much of any socializing beyond being the outcast and getting bullied for it.

Blogger Avalanche February 01, 2020 3:18 PM  

@9 " I've lost track of what traits belong to which group."

Hie thee posthaste to Unauthorized TV and devour therefrom the SSH Voxiversity lessons therein!

Blogger Johnny February 01, 2020 3:20 PM  

The general theory of science is that it contains a body of wisdom arrived at through observation or experimentation done by scientists. That produces a reluctance to admit to a body of knowledge that comes from other sources. That is why they end up discovering something that is already widely taken as obvious. That is why the social/sexual thing is all there already, but they don't want to admit to it unless they can credit research in their particular field. Add to that the political bias and they are useful to people who share their political bias. Psychiatry comes through some of the time. The other social sciences. Well, forget about it...

Blogger Restitutor Orbis February 01, 2020 3:22 PM  

To what rank would the collective here assign a young man who faces bullying because of e.g. ugliness but fights back with sufficient viciousness to stop the bullying, resulting in being grudgingly left alone but not being accepted into the group?

And to what rank would you assign a young man who is exiled from the primary status hierarchy because of e.g. poverty but is the ringleader of the "burnouts" or low income kids?

Blogger Avalanche February 01, 2020 3:30 PM  

@11 "My 7 year old is gamma."

Vox, would 'exposing' such a child to the Castalia Classics make a dent? That's the age range the Classics are set for, is it not? Since, with a 7-yr-old, a mom -- or better, a DAD -- still have the power to force the kid to sit and listen to, and eventually joint-read, the Classics of our people, mightn't that inculcate the more's and traditions -- and underlying human structure -- of our people into a stunted child?

Rather than feeling 'I have to wash my hands of the still-young beast and let him be,' can it not be tamed and civilized by exposure to civilization?

I would wonder, too, Nym Coy, does his lying and avoiding possible failures WORK for him? I'm reminded on a 15-yr-old (girl!) who desperately wanted to make the basketball team, practiced diligently for months before try-outs; and then didn't make it. Mom and dad let her cry her eyes out for a half-hour, then put her back into class. IF they had let her come home and lie in bed the rest of the day and did NOT force her to 'face-up' and carry on through the day and the week, would that not have further encouraged her to fall back on crying with weakness over a disappointment?

One reason children throw hysterical screaming fits in stores is cause mom (usually) gives in and gives the brat whatever it's screaming over; out of guilt or a desire to shut the kid up/embarrassment. Dad, more usually, ignores the screaming, drags the kid along through the rest of the shopping trip and goes home. It's unsuccessful, so the kid stops trying -- or only tries on mom...

Blogger Terrific February 01, 2020 3:31 PM  

But how is a boy in the 21st century supposed to make and have friends if his mother never makes playdates for him? Seriously.

Blogger God Emperor Memes February 01, 2020 3:33 PM  

I'm not sure about that. When I look at typical Gamma behaviour, it seems analogous to behaving like smartmouth, bitchy women. I strongly suspect many Gammas are the product of a single mother/uninvolved father.

Blogger sammibandit February 01, 2020 3:39 PM  

[Read: The controversy over parents who eat lunch with their children at school]

Clicked through the link in the OP... and...see this link. Not today. I haven't even had my coffee. When I went to school if your mom volunteered for the day /she/ didn't eat with you. She ate with the adults.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 01, 2020 3:48 PM  

"How can you identify a middle school Omega vs Sigma?"

The Sigma goes outside

Blogger Goodnight February 01, 2020 3:55 PM  

We had a similar problem with ours at that age. We started forcing him to do stuff with other boys and general male type stuff - camping, dodgeball, martial arts, helping work on cars and yard, etc. Just doing physical stuff changed his personality a lot. Once he wanted an expensive video game and I told him I'd buy it when he could do 100 push-ups. He eventually worked up to it but I had to keep pushing him.

We also come down on him like a ton of bricks for lying. It's a challenge sometimes, but now at 13 he's generally a pretty good kid.

Blogger Joe Smith February 01, 2020 3:58 PM  

@11 Is this for real? Your 7 year old is a gamma but it's not your fault? Hilarious, and disgusting.

Blogger David Ray Milton February 01, 2020 4:05 PM  

Makes me wonder how much the de-personalized nature of public schools contribute to these behavioral patterns.

From personal experience, while I lived in the same house from ages 4-18, the address was in a peculiar location where when I changed from Elementary to Middle to High School I was going to school with a brand new crowd every time. I always had lots of friends by the time I finished each stage, but it was rough on my social confidence every time I had to start over after a few years.

There are probably many others in similar situations, especially at large faceless & nameless schools across the country, who simply can’t adapt socially in such inhuman environments.

Children weren’t meant to be carted off for 8 hours a day for 14 years. Be a damn parent.

Homeschool or die.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 01, 2020 4:27 PM  

How can you identify a middle school Omega vs Sigma?

Sigmas are rare, so it's probably an Omega in any case. But if you spot what might be an Omega but the girls like him, he might be a Sigma, or at least may be one in future.

Another difference: Omegas are shunned by the hierarchy. Sigmas are invited into it, but stay out of it because they genuinely prefer being by themselves.

Blogger Zaklog the Great February 01, 2020 4:44 PM  

Are low-status guys who have a few genuine friends of their own definitionally gammas? It sounds as if an omega is, definitionally, quite isolated. But what you’re saying also sounds as if a gamma’s friendships are, definitionally, fake and selfish. What divides a gamma from a low-status delta? Is it his social position (external) or his own thoughts/behavior (internal)?

Blogger Argus Bacchus February 01, 2020 4:45 PM  

I agree with the SDL's conclusions. He's right, as usual.

Having said that, the researchers did supply a few laughs.

From the linked article:

"Teachers often separate friends, whose banter can be disruptive in the classroom. Yet when researchers record student conversations during class, there is evidence that while kids are problem solving or working together, students collaborate more effectively with their friends."

I have 24+ years of evidence that they often sit there with their friends and screw around, getting nothing done. It's called knowing what the hell you are doing as an experienced teacher and adjusting as the situation and the long-term best interests of the students require.


“It’s really interesting that we as adults in the society often regard friendships more as a nuisance and a distraction rather than give them the value that they really deserve.”

It's really interesting when adults who have zero experience actually teaching 20 or more 6th graders in the same classroom make absurd statements.

Good luck trying to "respect" every friendship in the classroom. The students will work you like a rented mule.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( no need to be racist, Ratchets can Karen better than anybody ) February 01, 2020 4:48 PM  

https://infogalactic.com/info/Learned_helplessness

apply and extrapolate.

Blogger Roy February 01, 2020 4:53 PM  

CCP wrote:How can you identify a middle school Omega vs Sigma?

A simple answer- look for those who are shunned by other students; that's your Omega.

Your Sigma, on the other hand, may be a loner but is still an accepted member of the herd; in fact, he probably does a good job attracting the girls, even if he pays them no attention.

Blogger God Emperor Memes February 01, 2020 4:53 PM  

That already exists:
https://www.bop.gov/mobile/

Blogger Azimus February 01, 2020 5:10 PM  

Human beings are never nastier to each other than they are in middle school, particularly the girls. If you are not one of the alphas, you are dead to them. In high school, when we sorted out into the different "factions" for lack of a better word (jocks, nerds, grease monkeys, partiers/dopers, band people, etc), the "fractal" effect of the SSH took over and I got a lot more shots. Of course in the middle school monolithic hierarchy it really depended on when puberty hit, ie the guy with a mustache in 5th grade got far more attention. By 10th/sophomore year all but the most unlucky of us were in.

Blogger VD February 01, 2020 5:15 PM  

How can you identify a middle school Omega vs Sigma?

It's too soon to tell. The Sigmas often don't begin to show themselves until the sexual aspect of the SSH is a factor. But I would say that excelling in sports or music is one possible sign, as is the occasional unexpected inclusion by the most popular people for one reason or another.

Blogger Azimus February 01, 2020 5:16 PM  

Bullying forms a VERY useful function I think we all overlook - the chance to fight for whats right. The low of being tormented by a force majeure and the high of overcoming him or the feeling of belonging when friends come to your aid (or you coming to another's aid - in the musketeer sense not white knight sense) are important experiences in learning what it means to be a stand up man. The bully himself has issues no doubt, but he creates an opportunity for the rest of us to rise up and do good.

Blogger VD February 01, 2020 5:17 PM  

Are low-status guys who have a few genuine friends of their own definitionally gammas?

Usually, yes.

But what you’re saying also sounds as if a gamma’s friendships are, definitionally, fake and selfish.

They're not fake. They're practical and mutually beneficial. They may last for years. But gammas are not loyal to each other like deltas are.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 01, 2020 5:19 PM  

Is this for real? Your 7 year old is a gamma but it's not your fault? Hilarious, and disgusting.

@30 Joe Smith
It can happen with a non-Gamma father. Often if he's the second child, for example, and feels his parents like the first child more.

Blogger VD February 01, 2020 5:19 PM  

Vox, would 'exposing' such a child to the Castalia Classics make a dent?

Probably not.

Your 7 year old is a gamma but it's not your fault? Hilarious, and disgusting.

It may well not be. There is definitely a genetic aspect to it. We are far more than the influence of our parents.

Blogger Ant_B February 01, 2020 5:23 PM  

What's an Omega?

Blogger VFM #7634 February 01, 2020 5:24 PM  

Are low-status guys who have a few genuine friends of their own definitionally gammas? It sounds as if an omega is, definitionally, quite isolated. But what you’re saying also sounds as if a gamma’s friendships are, definitionally, fake and selfish. What divides a gamma from a low-status delta? Is it his social position (external) or his own thoughts/behavior (internal)?

@33 Zaklog
Gammas appear to have the most stable friendships with other Gammas and Lambdas, even if they do get into catfights and spats with each other like women.

Blogger A rebel without a General February 01, 2020 5:39 PM  

I really do think people can see an omega just by looking at them. That's my impression I would try and be social but fail and then I got thinking why does no one approach me? I think people can sense omegas and avoid/reject them.

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei February 01, 2020 5:51 PM  

There is also a dark side to the social world of middle school

Wait, handing your children over to the local government indoctrination centers for most of their youth has a downside? How can that be, isn't public education" one of the foundational earmarks of civilization?

"All of our basic freedoms where compromised the day we walked into kindergarten.

Schools are effectively prisons. Some how they get worse and worse as the decades roll along.

I was looking at the slop that kids were tweeting on the DrudgeReport with #ThanksMichelleObama... prison commissary has better quality than what America is feeding its schoolchildren!

Gang violence, drugs, fights, bullying, all of this crap just to get a card that has letter grades on it. Totally useless for the working world. Your lender doesn't care what your GPA was, he wants your financial statement. Your interviewer doesn't care that you got a D in 8th Grade Algebra, he is interested in how much experience you have and who your references are. The public utility doesn't care that you got a C in high school physics, they want a deposit. Your clients or customers don't care that you got an F in Intro to Business class back in senior year because the teacher's lectures were beyond boring and the cute brunette (who is now your wife) took all of your attention away. All your clients or customers want is a quality product and/or service. Never once will they quiz you about your grades or demand a transcript.

The business world is 180 degrees from what teachers and counselors depict it. All of the tests and lectures and authoritarian disciplinary rules offer ZERO marketable skills to succeed out there.

All of these lefties whine about how its "child abuse" for parents to homeschool their own children and teach them the Bible. No, child abuse is putting your child in these prisons for a 12 year sentence.

They'll get exposed to gangs and drugs and bullies in the schools, but not financial education which really separates the winners from the losers."

Blogger carnaby February 01, 2020 5:59 PM  

So "give me the boy and I'll show you the man." True on a lot of different levels?

Blogger Kiwi February 01, 2020 6:08 PM  

I'm lucky enough to have the same friends I had as a child. The group bubble expands and contracts as new people come and go, but the originals don't appear to have the ability to pass through the membrane and escape to the outside.

This has to rank as one of the most valuable things I have, and was the catalyst for not moving my own family around during the school years. I have none in school now and the bubble has been successfully replicated in the generation below, except that the new gens bubble expands much more globally than mine ever did. It's hard to describe how it feels to see these adults, who I have know since they were small, arriving when there is times of challenge or times of celebration. That's success for me.

As for kids at school, the ones with no friends tended to be that way for a very credible reason, eg tell the teacher types, tell a parent types, smelly, worst at team sports (often, but not always, the fatty), bitey, have a suspicious skin condition, wreck your stuff, fake being hurt, wet their pants, ate your lunch, stole your stuff, and ANNOYING beyond belief! I'd like to say they improved through the next levels of school, but I can't.

Blogger Krymneth February 01, 2020 6:23 PM  

My younger boy is trying hard to be a gamma. I have medical reasons to believe some brain damage may be in play. (He also has more than a dollop of narcissism.) It isn't necessarily all up to the parents.

But one nice thing about understanding the SSH is it gives avenues of attack not available if you don't understand them. It is not necessarily obvious that you can address the root causes of gammadom by working hard to encourage them to take responsibility for bad things that happen, or getting them to lift (or closest available equivalent for age). He's just started doing karate, and, well, it's kinda fake karate but it's still better than nothing. (The real deal is not something open to him for medical reasons, not even when he's older.) The links may seem obvious now if you've been thinking about it for years, but they aren't.

He may still grow up to be gamma, but I'll have done my best. To be honest I'm still cautiously optimistic.

Blogger Rek. February 01, 2020 6:32 PM  

Gammas and lambdas? I had never really thaught about that. It just feels incompatible.

Gammas will do their sjw thing with the alphabet crowd but friendships?

Blogger map February 01, 2020 6:32 PM  

Basically, gammas and omegas are low status people. In grade school, this manifests in oddball things, like weird-looking clothing and other forms of abnormality. This is usually the fault of the parents, who've imbibed too much societal bs, like "being yourself" or some other nonsense. They do not see the value of strategic conformity so they imbue this in their kids...with disastrous results.

Remember, status counts for everything. Success in life depends heavily on networking, on leveraging other people's brains in exchange for leveraging yours, and successful networking depends on making sure that your level of status is equal or better to the people around you. Gammas and omegas typically fail at that and that starts in grade school.

You have only three choices in life:

1) Raise your status in the world.
2) Bring down the status of others.
3) Disengage.

Blogger Fargoth February 01, 2020 6:40 PM  

A Gamma trait I've observed is lack of gratitude for whatever place they manage to occupy within the hierarchy.

The whole "I was happy the bully hung me from the locker by my underwear" is also true, and painful to watch play out in my work environment. I find the best way to deal with any kind of gamma verbal activity is to completely ignore it; hopefully this will help starve it out.

Blogger Nym Coy February 01, 2020 6:47 PM  

Thanks for the tips @Goodnight

Blogger Akulkis February 01, 2020 6:54 PM  

@11

"My 7 year old is gamma. He will stew and look to get revenge even over minor insults, he'll lie to save face and then pretend it was a joke, and he avoids things he might fail at. I assure you we didn't teach him these behaviors. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to soccer practice, but you can't make him try."

Part of the army's leadership training is putting those future leaders in positions where they are bound to fail. Assign them 5 tasks, and only enough time to do 3. Then put them in the hot seat about why they failed to accomplish those 2 other tasks. This is in the Officer's schools, the Warrant Officer Candidate School, and the senior NCO schools.

For a kid like your son, obviously, allowing verbal defense for failure is not the way to go. So, you mention that he's given up on soccer practice. This is, for lack of better terminology, a "passive aggressive" maneuver to get back at his teammates. "You don't like me? Fine, I'll just let the man I'm supposed to cover just get by without even making an effort."

So, in that case, what he lacks, is personal accountability.

Take him out of soccer. Put him in wrestling. Or swimming. Something where there are no viable excuses -- either you're better than your opponent, or your opponent is better than you. If, say, it's wrestling, and he says, "well, sweat got in my eye, and distracted me." you just turn it around -- "you think the guy who beat you didn't have sweat getting in his eyes, too? He's no bigger than you -- you're in the same weight class -- so he had to work just as hard."

Personal accountability will either kill the gamma, or cure the gamma.

Blogger Nym Coy February 01, 2020 7:07 PM  

For everyone judging my parenting for my child's gammatude, I am certain it is genetic because a lot of those annoying traits are traits I had, that I had to learn to overcome. I'm certain he'll turn out fine eventually. The only reason I mentioned it was someone asked if it was genetic. Anyone who has had more than one child can attest to their vastly different personalities.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 01, 2020 7:20 PM  

"It may well not be. There is definitely a genetic aspect to it. We are far more than the influence of our parents."

Been pondering this since you posted that remark and find myself having to conclude that the tendencies putting men into given SSH categories are both inherited and learned. Especially where facets are concerned.
It would be easy to blame genetics, the whole "born that way" BS. Or blame parents. Either way is self exoneration.
Left to my own devices I'm a level 5 free-floating turbo omega. But on the job I learned how to be a bravo from my dad, who was never in charge but highly revered by those who ran everything. My dad was also a sigma where friends were concerned and always said you need a few good friends instead of lots of mediocre ones. Two facets I learned. But in his personal matters he was an alpha and had mistresses and I never did that. One woman was enough trouble. But for a while when in the military I had a friend who was PUA before there was an internet to bank on the term. He showed me game and wingmanship - I was the only one he could trust for that - and we chased skirts all over Western Europe in the 90s. But none of that permanently changed me nor prevented me from my lack of survival in the realm regarding SSH. I'm told I was strange even before I could walk.
Inherited? Learned? I think the answer is both. And I think the main reason for the gammapocalypse we're seeing is due to not letting boys have playground fights without getting the police and socialist workers involved. My neohews all went to a school where both the fight starter and defender would get expelled. It was real hard on those poor lads having to resist punching those who needed it. Though I fear such an environment makes gammas out of both the one who needs to be punched in the mouth and the one who has to bottle up their justified rage. A system where whoever runs to teacher and looks like a bigger victim is the winner.

Blogger Nym Coy February 01, 2020 7:27 PM  

@Akulkis Thanks for the tips. We'll definitely pursue the individual sports, but I don't want to give up yet on the team sports because of the hierarchy lessons.

Blogger Shield up sword swinging pipes blasting February 01, 2020 7:28 PM  

Dont worry too much, he is only 7. The problem with the Gamma is that he doesn't mature past about 15-16 years of age. I is normal and ok for children to be gammas, it is not ok for 30 year olds to be gammas.

Blogger RedJack February 01, 2020 7:40 PM  

I always find these threads fascinating.

It also explained something to me. Solid delta. Love being part of a team. Decent at leadership but would rather not be at the top. Got dates and girlfriends before my wife, but not the "10"s (which actually suited me in the long run just fine).

In my current role it has also helped me adjust some of my crew into at least functional workers. A whiny gamma? Make him accountable for what he is bitching about (within reason obviously) and hammer him when he fails. A delta struggling because he is teamed with two guys that are NOT deltas? Either move him to a crew with a leader, or add another delta to the mix.

And keep the number of gammas to an absolute minimum.

For the kid that wants to quit, some advice. I wasn't good at sports. Gross motor skills were (and to be honest, are) not great. But I was strong, and had to work hard on the farm. Got into shooting, were it was just me, the rifle, and an argument with physics. Between that and working out, I realized while I would probably never be the best on the team, I could step up and contribute.

Blogger tublecane February 01, 2020 8:00 PM  

What is this "perceived" crap? Psychology and sociology and all the B.S. disciplines cold so themselves a favor and stick to unjustifiably reducing things too complex for their understanding. Which would be a kid perceiving himself as isolated and becoming dangerous. But no, they have to bring the perception of everyone else in. Like "stereotype threat," or whatever.

How do they stand it in their Hall of Mirrors, pretending to get everything?

Blogger tublecane February 01, 2020 8:02 PM  

By the way, one could learn more from one Dostoyevsky novel than a lifetime of such B.S. studies. Why do they get the money?

Blogger VFM #7634 February 01, 2020 8:29 PM  

My younger boy is trying hard to be a gamma. I have medical reasons to believe some brain damage may be in play. (He also has more than a dollop of narcissism.)

@50 Krymneth
Narcissism appears to be highest among Alphas and Gammas. Except that Alpha narcissism is backed up by their high status, whereas Gamma narcissism is by their own fiat. Bravo and Sigma narcissism is more muted, but is likewise backed up like Alpha.

Gammas and lambdas? I had never really thaught about that. It just feels incompatible.

Gammas will do their sjw thing with the alphabet crowd but friendships?


@51 Rek.
I don't know, but I have noticed that the straight allies of queers that I've seen over the years tend to be Gammas. Sometimes the Gammas convert to being queer themselves.

Plus, I've noticed a lot of overlap between Gamma behavior and how most homosexuals behave, almost as if Lambda is a particularly egregious strain of Gamma. They're both really good at worming their way into organizations and taking over, not to mention causing drama, disruption, and mayhem. They're prone to using emotionally-charged language, and they both have female thought processes.

I tend to avoid both if possible, so I may have a misleading impression, but that's what I've seen.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 01, 2020 8:35 PM  

Which is why I laughed out loud at the advice above to tell an Omega son to just ask girls questions. An Omega could talk to people all day long. The problem is that people almost never talk back.

Blogger Inner Monologue February 01, 2020 8:45 PM  

Should gammas who are trying become deltas distance themselves from their gamma friends?

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 01, 2020 8:57 PM  

So you discovered that you don't have the temperament for team sports and are better suited for individual activities?

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 01, 2020 9:12 PM  

You are incorrect. There is a fourth option, which is obviously to be content with one's status as it is, so long as one is not interfering with anyone else. An omega who lives a carefree life doing what he wants might consider himself a "success" because his life is as he wishes it to be.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 01, 2020 9:34 PM  

That's been my experience. Over time, when it was I who took the initiative to meet people, introduce myself, a significant majority of the time, I determined I was fine and everyone else is shy and socially awkward.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 01, 2020 9:38 PM  

Yes.

Blogger Akulkis February 01, 2020 9:39 PM  

"@Akulkis Thanks for the tips. We'll definitely pursue the individual sports, but I don't want to give up yet on the team sports because of the hierarchy lessons."

He needs both.

Blogger OvergrownHobbit February 01, 2020 9:51 PM  

@11 You might find this book helpful:

https://www.amazon.com/Try-Make-Me-Strategies-Cooperation/dp/0451206452

Many libraries have copies so you can inter-library loan it if money is tight.

TL'DR for those who do rescue dogs is shaper training for kids.

I should add the subtitle is "simple" techniques, and they are (and the intro on "why this stuff works" is better than the specifics). But they're hard. They cost a lot of time and patience (like with a shy-sharp submissive-peeing bitch) before you can get to most of the behavioral changes.

I will pray for you now and try to remember to continue to do so when I pray for the Sunday School kids. God bless you and your family.

Blogger John Rockwell February 01, 2020 9:52 PM  

Gammas that refuse to change need to be demoted to Omega Status.

Blogger Akulkis February 01, 2020 9:53 PM  

"Which is why I laughed out loud at the advice above to tell an Omega son to just ask girls questions. An Omega could talk to people all day long. The problem is that people almost never talk back"

Foolish thing to laugh about.

That was identified early on as a fundamental skill in the PUA community, and hammered on for newbies to stop talking about themselves and learn to ask the girl to tell about herself.

Women love to talk about themselves even more than omegas love to talk about their odd projects, as long as they believe the guy has a sincere interest in hearing what she's telling him.

When I went through those exercises, I came up with a mental list of things I would work to get a woman I just met to tell me about. (Beyond the typical name? where are you from? what do you do/what's your job stuff? Normally, I wouldn't ask a question flat out, but relate something, and end it with a question... like, "Don't you hate it when someone does that?"... the question leaves space for an answer... and she'll fill it. The conversation flows very naturally, even though you can have it all pre-planned before you've even know of her existance, because you're coming up with a structure, not particular words to say.)

If he's in a place where he doesn't know anybody, then nobody knows him. That's an opportunity to experiment and try things. You can teach him to view social interactions as an experiment, and opportunity to compare different techniques. That can get him past the shyness/stage-fright stage.

Role-play/rehearse with him... then after a bit, swap yourself out with your wife or a daughter or an (adult) female who lives next door or whatever.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 01, 2020 9:53 PM  

@43

"It may well not be. There is definitely a genetic aspect to it. We are far more than the influence of our parents."

Quite possibly, but it's better for parents if they don't believe in that possibility when dealing with their kids.

He said "Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to soccer practice, but you can't make him try."

This kind of sly, backhanded remark about his son is reminiscent to me of a woman who silently resents her husband for drinking or something like that. If my intuition of the spirit behind that remark is correct, his dad passive-aggressively resents and is showing that kind of example, and that's why the son's becoming gamma

Blogger Pathfinderlight February 01, 2020 9:58 PM  

During middle school, I went to Catholic school. There was a no fighting rule that prevented fighting back against emotional bullying.

It might have been a good environment for future adults, but the people who ran the school were more concerned with minimizing their workload, rather than teaching kids how to handle other people in that environment.

Blogger John Rockwell February 01, 2020 10:06 PM  

1) Not necessarily. Being Christian reduces Status in a Satanic World.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 01, 2020 10:10 PM  

And if I'm wrong, my apologies for coming off like judging. I don't have a lot to go on obviously, but I also don't think it's natural for any boy to gravitate toward the suffering of gammatude. Far more likely a matter of nurture or the lack thereof in my experience talking with people about their lives.

Blogger lynnjynh9315 February 01, 2020 10:17 PM  

I retreated. I'll admit that.
But then again, I also showered....

I think Omegas are a broad enough category to subdivide.

Blogger lynnjynh9315 February 01, 2020 10:22 PM  

Where did you come from? Where did you go?
Oh, where did you go to, Cotton-Eye Joe?

Blogger VFM #7634 February 01, 2020 10:25 PM  

Which is why I laughed out loud at the advice above to tell an Omega son to just ask girls questions. An Omega could talk to people all day long. The problem is that people almost never talk back.

@64 Uncle Maffoo
The Omega would benefit much more by remaining quiet and observing how other people behave.

So you discovered that you don't have the temperament for team sports and are better suited for individual activities?

It can happen. I consider myself a Delta-loner. Delta without the inclination to get a peer group or friends -- I used to be an Omega until several years ago, and wasn't satisfied with being one. At work, I prefer to work on a project by myself, only getting feedback from the boss or quality control to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. Other workers appear to enjoy doing projects in small teams, but I wouldn't be able to stand doing that at all.

Blogger Beau February 01, 2020 10:36 PM  

To what rank would the collective here assign a young man who faces bullying because of e.g. ugliness but fights back with sufficient viciousness to stop the bullying, resulting in being grudgingly left alone but not being accepted into the group?

Rank? I don't know. Respect, absolutely. Sounds like a guy I'd hang out with.

And to what rank would you assign a young man who is exiled from the primary status hierarchy because of e.g. poverty but is the ringleader of the "burnouts" or low income kids?

Ringleader? That's an alpha trait. A man gets tarred with the reputation of his associates. Even Jesus was sharply criticized for his association with outcasts. He chose to associate anyway. All that is gold does not glitter.

Blogger Korbin Ransley February 01, 2020 10:53 PM  

Neat subject. Interesting thread.

More emphasis might need to be placed on looks and charisma as well as how we choose to handle stress or team sports for Pete's sake. Just for the sake of being thorough. Bathing and not bucking the system to much without the clout to do it could also help. 🙂

Three ideas/sayings that might help young folks out. Two certainly helped me.

1.) Life is unfair

2.) People are full of crap...

... and finally Paraphrasing something I remember hearing on a Darkstream. It is not my intent to misquote the Darklord or bring his baleful gaze upon me but...

3.) After a certain point guys tend to form friend groups made up of people with similar rank in the Social Sexual Hierarchy.

Having number three spelled out for me opened my eyes. So much I've seen and heard made sense looking at things through this lens. Thank you.

Blogger weka February 01, 2020 11:03 PM  

True. And lack of percussive personality corrections in the playground.

Mandatory sports were there for a reason, as were heterosexual male teachers.

Blogger weka February 01, 2020 11:06 PM  

Bullrush.

Seriously.

Blogger Noah B. February 01, 2020 11:07 PM  

"Anyone who has had more than one child can attest to their vastly different personalities."

It is absolutely possible to do the same things and get completely different results with children. No question about it.

Blogger map February 01, 2020 11:10 PM  

Uncle Maffoo wrote:You are incorrect. There is a fourth option, which is obviously to be content with one's status as it is, so long as one is not interfering with anyone else. An omega who lives a carefree life doing what he wants might consider himself a "success" because his life is as he wishes it to be.

Really? People are just going to leave you alone, huh? You think that is how life works?

How do you plan on holding down a job, or getting a family, or functioning on any level as an omega? The intent is always to push omegas out of their orbits and any inevitable social contact will result actions to get the omega out of his comfort zone...by removing the omega from the premises.

Blogger map February 01, 2020 11:16 PM  

John Rockwell wrote:1) Not necessarily. Being Christian reduces Status in a Satanic World.

There are absolute forms of status and there are relative forms. Yes, you have the fame, fortune and power, but I am talking about relative status as well.

The idea here is to raise your level of status to match or exceed the relative status of the peer group that is around you. That is what will help removing omega status from the kid.

Blogger MagnusStout February 01, 2020 11:26 PM  

QUESTIONS: since public education is a fairly new thing, how do you account for that in SSH expression versus how children were raised beforehand (ex: working on farms, factories with other adults)? Seems like the SSH would have been easier & clearer in the past? Are these SSH struggles worse due to artificially putting similar ages together (like a “Lord of the Flies” scenario? Thoughts?

Blogger Kiwi February 01, 2020 11:43 PM  

@11

"My 7 year old is gamma.

It just sounds like your kid has outsmarted you.

Blogger Norse Fan February 02, 2020 12:21 AM  

you take a stand or you don't, go along to get along, or make your own way..

Blogger ScottC February 02, 2020 12:46 AM  

Gammas are those who manage to stay inside the hierarchy by strategic alliances with "friends" who are not actually friends.

Are these friendships with other gammas who are using each other for the same purpose?

Blogger God Emperor Memes February 02, 2020 1:03 AM  

Agreed. I certainly became a much better person through contact sport. Also gained a lot of respect from my peer group, simply for being willing to put myself on the line (not that I understood that at the time).

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 1:24 AM  

I've said it before, but I think it's good to watch an incipient gamma boy for fear of failure. That's probably what's driving Nym Coy's boy to not try in sports. So the suggestion to try individual sports might work, but if the kid shows the same pattern, try getting some activity you can do together that requires competence like fixing something or building something. Figure out a way to somewhat plausibly tell the kid (or just bluff well) "I want to get this done, and I'm going to need your help to do it", that way it's not about what he wants or if he's happy doing it, because then he'd just run from it like sports.

If you can get him into a pattern of having responsibilities and feeling needed with some level of skill he has to master and then give him props when the job's done, that'll be a good foundation for overcoming some of his fear and being a little more delta.

Blogger Autarky Bear February 02, 2020 1:31 AM  

This is an insight indeed. Can't wait for your books on the Socio-Sexual Hierarchy. They will be fun to read and I am sure helpful in understanding relationships and behavior between people. Even from your videos and streams, I have been able to identify the traits you talk about in each rank. It has helped me judge what to say and how to speak to men properly.

Blogger Korbin Ransley February 02, 2020 2:25 AM  

@44 Ant_B I found an article laying it out at the Alpha Game blog. Search Social Sexual Hierarchy. Neat article from March 5th 2011.
Got some interesting results searching Omega on the Alpha Game blog site too.

Blogger Yukichi Sensei February 02, 2020 2:25 AM  

In the past, the nerdy and awkward kids tried to stick together in their strangeness. And only the most fringe would refuse to adjust to the needs of the nerd group. This was repeated in other subculture groups, you were not mainstream, but you conformed to your smaller group for the hierarchy it offered.

It seems to be happening less. I wonder how much over-parenting, small families, and technology effect this. And seeing the historical percentages would be interesting.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 02, 2020 2:35 AM  

map wrote:Uncle Maffoo wrote:You are incorrect. There is a fourth option, which is obviously to be content with one's status as it is, so long as one is not interfering with anyone else. An omega who lives a carefree life doing what he wants might consider himself a "success" because his life is as he wishes it to be.

Really? People are just going to leave you alone, huh? You think that is how life works?

How do you plan on holding down a job, or getting a family, or functioning on any level as an omega? The intent is always to push omegas out of their orbits and any inevitable social contact will result actions to get the omega out of his comfort zone...by removing the omega from the premises.


Relax, Princess. Your response shows how ignorant you are. My own life is an example of being a successful Omega. I have a wife (probably better looking than yours), a job I'm content with, and I "function" in society to the extent I choose to. I arrange and rearrange my situation constantly to avoid interaction with people I choose not to interact with. You speak of "intent" - whose intent are you talking about?

Blogger Uncle Maffoo February 02, 2020 2:52 AM  

James Lovebirch wrote:@43

"It may well not be. There is definitely a genetic aspect to it. We are far more than the influence of our parents."

Quite possibly, but it's better for parents if they don't believe in that possibility when dealing with their kids.


Genetic inheritance and predisposition isn't something you "believe in." Not that it's an excuse, but the constraints with which you work.

He said "Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to soccer practice, but you can't make him try."

This kind of sly, backhanded remark about his son is reminiscent to me of a woman who silently resents her husband for drinking or something like that. If my intuition of the spirit behind that remark is correct, his dad passive-aggressively resents and is showing that kind of example, and that's why the son's becoming gamma


NEVER underestimate the contempt and resentment parents can have for their own children.

Blogger JamesB.BKK February 02, 2020 4:32 AM  

My recollection is that not all not all but most blacks and Mexicans - and they were Mexicans - didn't try very hard to be moderately friendly. It was around sixth grade that many blacks apparently had gotten the "talk" Derbyshire got fired responding to and became insufferable assholes about then.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 5:16 AM  

@98

It reminds me of a sigma I knew in high school. Hated his playboy father with children by 3 different women and his overbearing, neurotic, controlling mother. He became just like his father and had 3 abortions with one woman who was a smoking 10/10 before they angrily broke up last I knew of him.

What's inborn is the way a child reacts to imperfect parents. What's not natural is kids being dishonest little gammas no matter what the parents do.

Blogger VD February 02, 2020 5:16 AM  

I also don't think it's natural for any boy to gravitate toward the suffering of gammatude. Far more likely a matter of nurture or the lack thereof in my experience talking with people about their lives.

You're totally wrong. As others have already pointed out, parents with more than one children understand these things much better than those who don't have children and are reliant upon theory. I would estimate that parental influence and upbringing amounts to around 15 percent influence at most.

Blogger VD February 02, 2020 5:20 AM  

This kind of sly, backhanded remark about his son

There was nothing sly or backhanded about it. A good parent will be aware of a child's weaknesses as well as his strengths. Not every parent of a lying, nasty little kid is oblivious to his behavior or believes he is a misunderstood angel. The good parent wants to help him grow out of it, not enable the behavior by ignoring it.

Blogger Username_Unavailable February 02, 2020 5:22 AM  

Got to love it when all the armchair parental experts come out of the woodwork to judge a person they don't know based on prejudiced assumptions and insinuations they think they've inferred from a three sentence blog comment.

Just ignore the anklebiters, Nym.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 5:24 AM  

I should add that guy's brother by the same mother was a delta who loved being on the football team. He also knocked up a girl as a teenager, who ended up miscarrying.

Blogger The Cooler February 02, 2020 5:26 AM  

If my intuition of the spirit behind that remark is correct, his dad passive-aggressively resents and is showing that kind of example, and that's why the son's becoming gamma

Or he's just disappointed in his son. Which can mix one up pretty good.

Luckily, God commands we make spares.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 6:02 AM  

Vox, I do wonder if you had some pretty good parents and that influences your view. Good parents allow the kids to express who they are. Certainly no kid is perfectly behaved, and all kids require discipline and guidance.

We're talking about what makes people with a dominant omega pattern, and we also ended up talking about what makes a gamma as well, two patterns that seem conspicuously dysfunctional to me.

Most people have to deal with angry parents who crushed their spirits between the ages of 0-5, parents who overreacted when the kid would do something wrong, or even not so wrong; it was just a bad time for the parent. Those children grow up hating at least one parent and either hating or unrealistically idealizing the other. They're unable to express who they are and experience inner turmoil until they find God and forgive.

Just some thoughts, I've never met a gamma or omega who didn't have very screwed up parents.

Blogger Avalanche February 02, 2020 6:06 AM  

@47 "All of the tests and lectures and authoritarian disciplinary rules offer ZERO marketable skills to succeed out there."

That's too broad a brush. People are making a darned good living teaching 'entry-level biz' folks in their 20s and 30s (!) such "marketable skills" as how to chew with their mouths closed at a biz luncheon, basic social graces, how to meet-and-greet, shake hands, and so on...

The Japanese, as I understand, don't do testing and grading for the first 4 yrs of "public school': those years are spent socializing for public behaviour, such as home schooling may or may not offer to a growing child. Japan may 'teach' more conformity and self-effacement than we gaijin would be comfortable with, but 'we' also seem to be fine with thrusting completely uncivilized little animals on the public schools, hoping the poor teachers -- in both senses of the word poor -- can DO something with them!

Blogger Nym Coy February 02, 2020 6:09 AM  

@James Lovebirch. I'm his mom, which is why you're sensing the feminine. I love him and don't resent him or his father at all. Do you have children? Because you come across as someone with more of a theoretical knowledge than a practical one.

Blogger Avalanche February 02, 2020 6:13 AM  

@53 "I was happy the bully hung me from the locker by my underwear"

Relates back a study decades ago, that found that children who have been given "nicknames" from their peers -- even Fatty or Shorty -- do BETTER in school, in social adjustment, in interactional play than kids who are never given nicknames.

There's your omegas being shunned and ignored, and perhaps your gamma who can become a Delta if he doesn't wilt under the name, but claims it and carries on?

Blogger wreckage February 02, 2020 6:30 AM  

My limited set of opinions on "my kid is a gamma": You don't want him to become an alpha, you want him to become a delta.

First up, look for some situations where he can connect to other kids one-on-one. You need to make sure he actually has a grasp of how respect and loyalty work.
Second, look for an activity where competency is the main factor, rather than status. Better to have him look for identity in competency that he CAN have, than throw him repeatedly against a hierarchy that at this stage does not want him.
Third, make it clear, over and over, that he will not be shamed or derided for failure or error, praise the attempt, praise honesty, especially honest reflection.

I mention these because they are a necessary starting point with an autistic kid, and some of the gamma, omega, and sigma traits are in common with ASD - but especially gamma and omega. Gammas already have an inflated fear of error and embarrassment, and both omegas and gammas resent or fear hierarchies. Correcting their course relies on proper incentives as well as disincentives, and also in managing the anxiety that dominates their emotional landscape.

Blogger VD February 02, 2020 7:24 AM  

I do wonder if you had some pretty good parents and that influences your view.

My parents were, on the whole, pretty good. However, you're very obviously projecting, not me. Your comments suggest that you are a) a gamma, b) had bad parents, and c) have no children and may not have had siblings.

Most people have to deal with angry parents who crushed their spirits between the ages of 0-5, parents who overreacted when the kid would do something wrong, or even not so wrong; it was just a bad time for the parent.

That's absolutely not true. Again, you are obviously projecting. MOST parents are neither angry nor inclined to crush their children's spirits. This narcissism and projection of your own experience is where your gamma is very easy to see.

I've never met a gamma or omega who didn't have very screwed up parents.

I have. Most people have. But then, most people are not as myopically focused on themselves as you appear to be.

Blogger Nym Coy February 02, 2020 7:42 AM  

All, thanks for the advice and sorry to bring the mommy wars to VP. If anyone wants to continue to discuss parenting strategies for overcoming gamma tendencies, you can hit me up on SG2. Our situation is not at all dire and I'm confident for the future. Cheers.

Blogger VD February 02, 2020 8:18 AM  

All, thanks for the advice and sorry to bring the mommy wars to VP.

No worries. You should be able to ask for advice when you need it. Just ignore the gammas and anklebiters. Everyone else does. There is a reason no one wants to be around them in real life either.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 02, 2020 8:40 AM  

#112 will do once I get my SG invite, the one bit of compassion that I can muster is for those on the DOG end of the spectrum that want to better themselves. I hold most of the A-B spectrum in contempt since the vast majority of them are nothing but script readers and the script writers these days are total scum.

Blogger MNW February 02, 2020 8:51 AM  

My wife and have talked about private school (De has bad schools state wide) we agree that we cannot easily replicate peer socialization at home.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 02, 2020 10:07 AM  

MNW wrote:My wife and have talked about private school (De has bad schools state wide) we agree that we cannot easily replicate peer socialization at home.
For the first four or five years, you absolutely want to avoid peer socialization. Later, church, extended family, sports and homeschool groups offer plenty of that.

Remember, his peers are children. If you want him to learn to be an adult and function in adult society, he's going to have to be socialized by adults, not by peers.

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 02, 2020 11:12 AM  

When I hear the word "socialization" I recoil inside. It's the last thing anybody should want for a child in this society.
Yeah I know. Only an omega could say that. Do not deny the view from the outside looking in. Socialization looks like human sacrifice.
Long ago I ran a hunter education system for a large county - because people without families don't have to wait until retirement to do volunteer work- and in my role I met large non-socialized families. The kids needed hunter ed certificates to go hunt in other states where said families had large tracts of land.
These were homeschool kids, and their "socialization" was only kids from families like theirs and/or the extended families of relatives.
They were the most intelligent, happier, and healthy looking kids you would meet. No neurosis or autism apparent. The parents would look like normal people: dressed modestly and not morbidly obese.
These were the kinds of families that get depicted on television, but with the parents having secret affairs, the kids secretly gay or on drugs or something. Or the family is depicted as wierd. Gee I wonder why Hollywood does that.
Totally not socialized, these people. Unless you are one of those people, you will never meet them, live like them, or interact with them. They practically live in another dimension. And I would bet their households do not have television.

Blogger Hammerli 280 February 02, 2020 11:27 AM  

@116: I'd argue that for teenagers, peer socialization is bad. Most teens aren't bad - IF you can cut them out of the pack and get them around adults. Preferably adults who aren't relatives. They mature quickly, often into very decent people.

Blogger SirHamster February 02, 2020 11:30 AM  

James Lovebirch wrote:What's not natural is kids being dishonest little gammas no matter what the parents do.
You are wrong. In a nutshell, Gamma is an immature man.

Boys are immature men. A boy acting Gamma is not surprising, though obviously undesirable.

Good parenting is to make sure he develops the habits and mindsets to be an adult by the time he reaches adulthood. Maybe that means unlearning learned Gamma behavior, or developing habits to overpower and eliminate his Gamma instincts.

James Lovebirch wrote:And if I'm wrong, my apologies for coming off like judging. I don't have a lot to go on obviously ...
You are wrong. Why don't you take responsibility and deliver that apology properly? Don't be Gamma.

When you don't have a lot to go on, it's better to shut up. Or start asking questions to figure out what's going on.

It's possible to make correct judgments off limited information, but that requires being quick to listen and slow to speak.

Blogger Hammerli 280 February 02, 2020 11:37 AM  

@60: "For the kid that wants to quit, some advice. I wasn't good at sports....Got into shooting, were it was just me, the rifle, and an argument with physics."

Puts me in mind of Little Lanny, who was no good at sports. Couldn't throw, couldn't catch, slow runner. He told his father, "I guess I'm no good at sports."

His father made an extraordinarily wise reply, "No, you just haven't found the right sport."

So Little Lanny found a sport. One that didn't involve a ball at all. Or running. But it would demand his complete attention, both physically and mentally.

When Lanny Bassham retired from competition, he was the World and Olympic Champion. 50m Free Rifle, IIRC. Which is not so bad for someone who is "no good at sports."

Blogger Sicilian Switchblade February 02, 2020 11:53 AM  

Homeschooling isn't for everybody. However if the Prussian model of sitting in rows with children of only your age group, responding to Pavlovian bells ringing telling you when you are allowed to eat, change classes, speak, and piss, passes for "socialization" I wonder why anybody would see not being able to properly implement this as a negative?

It's a large world out there and as a parent who has successfully raised two children into adulthood in a homeschool environment, I can say socialization is a non factor. Both of my children now in their 20's function exceptionally well socially. Substantially better than I did at their age.

Proper societal "socialization," whatever that is supposed to mean is far more constrained and limited in the Prussian model system. It's design is far more suitable for producing order followers, conformists, and cubicle-bots.

Blogger Haus frau February 02, 2020 12:49 PM  

@108 nim coy, i emphasize with you and understand where you are coming from. My family has a lot of gammas. My oldest brother is so gamma he is omega. It alarms me to see my son display thought patterns that i grew up around with my dad and brothers.
Some behavioral tendencies that both my husband and myself have noted; a tendency toward the victim mentality even when he's the instigator, self pitty, a lack of self awareness in how he comes off to other people, being pedantic and correcting adults, and a general lack of emotional control. My husband and i have had many brutally honest conversations about these tendencies and are unified on the necessity of squashing these behaviors every time they pop up. He has gradually improved over time. We are blunt with him about what we see and the consequences to him socially if he doesn't work on his behavior. He needs to know he isnt fooling anyone when he makes excuses. Whatever approach you take to dealing with your son's issues, being unified as parents and consistent in helping your boy become masculine goes a long way.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 1:30 PM  

@Nym Coy

I'm sorry for the way I acted. Good luck, and you're showing a lot of love for your son by coming here.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 1:37 PM  

I'll do a gamma double-down on my stance that JLP's radioshow is extremely entertaining and very helpful to parents though. Don't let the way I brought it up keep you from checking it out

Blogger BillHinDaytona February 02, 2020 2:17 PM  

Is it possible to be both rejected by the hierarchy and yet treated with kindness by members of it?

Many years ago, I was a lifeguard at the shore. I was never teased or bullied, but I was not accepted and for the most part ignored. Yet I was never treated unfairly or meanly. For example, I always got my turn [at whatever, the bench press, etc.] ... got invites to the parties ... was asked to fulfill certain responsibilities [get beer, drive her home safe] ... but I was never one of the guys. There was always a distance.

Are men just generous in spirit with people they know are troubled?

I would note that many of these men grew up to be CEOs, doctors, car dealership owner, pillars of community types.

Anyway, I was always grateful for their attempts.

Blogger Akulkis February 02, 2020 2:24 PM  

"Figure out a way to somewhat plausibly tell the kid (or just bluff well) "I want to get this done, and I'm going to need your help to do it", that way it's not about what he wants or if he's happy doing it, because then he'd just run from it like sports."

That's good not only on an SSH level, but just plain old teaching life skills. I learned a lot from my dad's household and minor automotive maintenance projects. To the point that anything short of an engine or transmission rebuild, I do myself if I have the tools. And I quit buying cars with automatic transmissions after having to have one rebuilt. Automatic transmissions have the lowest durability/cost-to-repair of any assembly or component in an automobile drivetrain.

Blogger Akulkis February 02, 2020 2:29 PM  

"It reminds me of a sigma I knew in high school. Hated his playboy father with children by 3 different women and his overbearing, neurotic, controlling mother. He became just like his father and had 3 abortions with one woman who was a smoking 10/10 before they angrily broke up last I knew of him."

Father is BPD -- doing the typical round-robin seduction of multiple victims. Mother is most likely NPD heavily attracted to BPD, and will do anything to keep the BPD from leaving her, including antagonizing her own children to please him.
The sigma sounds like BPD -- which is a typical result from such parenting.

Blogger Constantin February 02, 2020 2:34 PM  

"Omegas are those who retreat from the hierarchy or are rejected by it. Gammas are those who manage to stay inside the hierarchy by strategic alliances with "friends" who are not actually friends. That is the primary dividing line between the two."

This is definitely helpful. Not just for anticipating these types of behaviors in other people, but to find them in my own. And sadly I am an Omega. Discovering this site and Alpha Game has helped me put into perspective on what kind of behavior I allowed myself to degrade to. I got a lot of work to do, but that's my path to walk on.

Thanks for putting out all this information Vox. I know it must be annoying seeing as it's always attracting the undesirables, but it's much appreciated by those like me who don't always comment but silently listen.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 02, 2020 3:12 PM  

Is it possible to be both rejected by the hierarchy and yet treated with kindness by members of it?

@125 BillHinDaytona

Yes, that meshes with my experience. I suspect that happens to low-status men who are also not very Gamma -- higher-functioning Omegas who are able to operate in society well enough to not inspire revulsion, or Delta-loners.

Blogger Beau February 02, 2020 4:04 PM  

Are men just generous in spirit with people they know are troubled?

No, their generosity of spirit extends across a variety of relationships. It's just easier to see in the case of the troubled because self-oriented motivation cannot account for it. It stands apart and above, a reflection of heaven on earth.

Blogger Restitutor Orbis February 02, 2020 4:08 PM  

@118 - I couldn't agree more. The idea that we do something beneficial for our children by "socializing" them with other uncivilized peers with underdeveloped executive function is one of the worst errors of modern child-rearing. Children turn into responsible adults by being socialized by adults, not by peers.

Blogger Nym Coy February 02, 2020 4:23 PM  

Sympathy for the gamma. Gammatude can also come from being incredibly intelligent and having most things come easily without effort. Maybe you were shielded from challenge, but maybe there just weren't that many. After a while, this easy competence becomes your identity. Failure then is not just a minor setback, but an actual identity attack. A failure makes you a fraud. Who are you? This identity association happens really early and is difficult to avoid when the talent is obvious.

It also requires a heaping dose of humility to take direction from someone dumber than you, who you don't trust to have foreseen all the aspects of the problem. Some people just don't encounter people smarter than them often.

As a parent of a smart boy, it's our job to provide exposure to challenges and opportunity to practice followership. Sports will be great once we can get his buy in that it's worth it. We're getting there.

Blogger RedJack February 02, 2020 5:09 PM  

Been listening to a biography of Grant. At the point where Sen. Sumner goes full gamma rage because old US Grant didn't give one of Sumners's lackeys a job.

Sumner goes full gamma and attacks Grant so much even the southern Dems stop backing him.

Grant comes off as a high Delta, who had good skills as a general, but ended up in a role he had no real skills for.

Watching the current impeachment goofiness, and Bolton acting the same way, makes me wonder if a lot of gammas go to politics.

Blogger Akulkis February 02, 2020 5:10 PM  

"Most people have to deal with angry parents who crushed their spirits between the ages of 0-5, parents who overreacted when the kid would do something wrong, or even not so wrong; it was just a bad time for the parent. Those children grow up hating at least one parent and either hating or unrealistically idealizing the other. They're unable to express who they are and experience inner turmoil until they find God and forgive."

Sounds like my parents. But never in my life would I tell you that most parents are like that. Even in junior high school, I was aware that most of my classmates father's were far more supportive when they made a mistake.

I'm quite sure my father has resented me from before I was born, his (according to a report card I found in a desk drawer a few years ago) grades after getting my mom pregnant during the Christmas/New Year's break between semesters.

About the only thing he ever showed long-term sustained support for was developing my skills playing baseball (according to my mom, he was a good enough pitcher and batter to have made it to the minor leagues, but quit his high school because he was mad at the coach. Another player on that same team went on to play many seasons with the Detroit Tigers ... catcher Bill Freehan.) Everything else, he would withdraw support for just at the critical point between doing all the work and realizing success. After doing this same thing with regards to me college education, I finally saw the pattern, and haven't looked for his help anything, as I realize that any assistance he gives me is just setting me up for failure, and worse, without learning any of the lessons that normally come with failing at something. I'd rather fail on my own, and learn something in the process, than put in a ton of effort at something, get very close to success, and then get sabotaged by the person who is purportedly helping me.

Blogger RedJack February 02, 2020 5:12 PM  

@132.

Make sure you son is challenged in areas he feels mastery of. Make sure he fails in those areas.

Looking back, that is what helped my development. I was a National Merit Scholar, but growing up my parents kept upping the ante. Feel competent talking about dinosaurs? Hear is a real paleontologist that Grandpa knows. Feel like you know something about genetics? Go talk to your Uncle who is working on a new corn hybrid.

Every time I succeeded, my parents pushed me to fail. Learning to lose was as good as learning to win. Humility is a good thing.

Blogger Akulkis February 02, 2020 5:13 PM  

"My wife and have talked about private school (De has bad schools state wide) we agree that we cannot easily replicate peer socialization at home."

In most states, home schooled children have a right to participate in the clubs, sports and other activities of the local school district. Your tax payer dollars are supporting them -- USE THEM for that socialization purpose.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 5:13 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 5:40 PM  

What I mean is, Akulkis, I don't know what the cost-to-repair/durability ratio of automatic transmissions has to do with what I said, but you're surely this blog's granpappy. God bless you.

Blogger Nym Coy February 02, 2020 7:41 PM  

@RedJack good point

Blogger James Lovebirch February 02, 2020 11:12 PM  

This might be too off topic, so I understand if it's axed.

@134

Akulkis, you ever ask your dad why he acted the way he did when you were growing up? It sounds like he made a lot of mistakes and was far from perfect, but you might be setting up unrealistic expectations for him and not considering his side of the story.

Reading your story reminds me how JLP talks a lot about kids who start resenting their fathers with their mothers' hatred after the mother resents the father, and that's something that happened to me and my old sigma friend I mentioned. In the case of my friend (and my case as well), I don't think his father ever did anything bad to him. Everything he complained about was things his father did to his mother as if his father had done it to him. My Dad's a deadbeat, my dad doesn't help me. But he was 18, why does he need help? He was a virtuoso at guitar and was doing fine. His father didn't screw him up that bad.

He ended up with a warped idea of his father as a kind of supervillain of his life, and then he ended up addicted to sex just the same way. He had so little self-control for that he refused to wear condoms because it doesn't feel as good, so were his words

I don't know about no BPD, but I can see something was hurting within the soul of that dude.

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 1:49 AM  

"It also requires a heaping dose of humility to take direction from someone dumber than you, who you don't trust to have foreseen all the aspects of the problem. Some people just don't encounter people smarter than them often."

Try being high 140 IQ in an infantry company in Iraq, 2006. Had to bite my tongue multiple times, because in an infantry company, during an operation, the chain of command is sacrosanct. It's kind of paradoxical, but by taking the risk of losing some men to hasty decisions without a committee, the overall survival rate improves. And if a leader has a really dumb idea, it's best to approach him AFTER he's said his thing, and then bring it up with him privately. He can always countermand his own order -- "I just realized X" or "based on new info, forget everything I just said.".. and the chain of command, and his leadership is still intact.

Question his intelligence or decision-making openly, during some "2-way range" time, and it will be stomped on UNLESS the one questioning is the leader of one of the elements he commands directly (i.e. a fireteam leader can question his squad leader, but not the platoon sergeant or platoon leader; a squad leader can question the platoon sergeant or platoon leader, but not the first sergeant or company commander. At Battalion level, even that ends if it's out in the open -- i.e. anybody except the BC and the company commanders are present). As for questioning a sergeant major ... don't do it, unless the guy is absolutely, clearly incompetent (fat chance at that these days), or drunk (also an increasing rarity in the US Army, due to the army now getting serious about alcohol abuse, 82nd Airborne Division excluded).

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 2:39 AM  

@132

"As a parent of a smart boy, it's our job to provide exposure to challenges and opportunity to practice followership. Sports will be great once we can get his buy in that it's worth it. We're getting there."

The physical is just as important as the intellectual.

I'm an American soldier. Before joining the army, I became a computer engineer, studying at one of the top 25 universities in the world for this subject. I can design computer chips, and I can design computers bigger than any that he's ever seen with his own eyes. I can write an operating system in a matter of weeks, by myself.

Originally, I was in a National Guard unit that's a rather intellectual branch for combat arms ... air defense artillery. I started out in radio communications. While in that unit, I went (seperate from my unit) on a 1-year deployment to Saudi Arabia as a support unit for Desert Storm, then returned home, and back to the same National Guard unit. Before my first enlistment was finished, I had a situation which was best solved by moving back to my home state of Michigan. I transferred from the air defense unit to an infantry battalion in Michigan -- my time in Saudi Arabia had shown me that females in a unit can cause a big soap opera and a lot of needless drama that I just didn't want to be around. I planned on staying with them for a year, and then transferring to another no-females-allowed type of unit after the first year ended, and finishing up my 6 year obligation. Well, I enjoyed being with those riflemen, and the training they went through (we ALL had to go through the same training... because in an ambush, if a radio operator doesn't understand what the riflemen are doing, he's going to be an even bigger target than he already started out as)... I eventually did 18 years with them, and while I can't say I enjoyed every minute of it, I thank God for all of those moments I hated. Because the moments I hated were what I NEEDED to be a better person, a more well-rounded individual, and more importantly, more resilient to both physical and psychological stress.

I'm now in a combat service support unit... supposedly a "rear echelon" unit, but we operate from the shore all the way up to within 2 miles of the forward edge of the battle area.* Despite being a CSS unit, we are NOT, like, say, a laundry unit, or supply unit, in which an attack on our assets could be an annoyance, but not especially debilitating. To the contrary, this sort of unit is one of the highest priority targets for any sort of enemy that has a functional theater analysis team. I still do mostly communications work, but I also teach them how those very crafty, and, due to years of training in all sorts of weather without shelter beyond clothing and personal tents, or the back of a truck if they're lucky... how they think, and if they were to attack a unit like my current one, how they would do it (and the "why" is self-evident. Most understand that they are a target, they just don't understand how vigilant they must be to deliberate attack by Special-Forces quality personnel, because if I were an enemy of the U.S., I would send some of my best men to take out any and all units of this type, and the damage to nearly every other unit in the theater of operations would be anywhere from substantial to catastrophic until new personnel were brought in to reconstitute the attacked units and their assets.)

* the most forward positions occupied by a platoon of my infantry buddies or armor....and possibly cavalry (when they aren't scouting behind-the-enemy-lines).

1/2

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 2:39 AM  

2/2

My father got me playing baseball from a young age. Did fairly well at it.. not a strong hitter (although I did get a base hit about once every other game), but I had a good eye and got on base by being walked a lot... even at the high school level. Although short and thin, I became a catcher. I happened to read a story about Johnny Bench (Cincinatti Reds) and that inspired me a week later when one of the coaches on my little league team said they needed someone to learn how to play catcher. So, i jumped at the opportunity.

From my mother's input, I took tennis lessons. Never got good at it really. Tennis is one long continuous lesson in humility for years. But I enjoy playing the game whenever the opportunity comes up.

In the winters, I was on bowling leagues. That's both a team AND an individual sport at the same time.

Starting in 9th grade, I started playing soccer in the fall (I was never big enough to play organized football). Learned the basics of playing hockey (remember, Michigan... I have to drive SOUTH to get to the two nearest bridges to Canada), but we never had the money for me to play on a league (It's not just the cost of buying skates and pads and helmets. Ice time for team practice is expensive, even in a building that's already below freezing!)

Team sports made it possible for me to survive, and then thrive in various components of the US Army. I've served about 3 1/2 years of active duty as part of being what people think of as "The Army" as opposed to National Guard or Reserve Duty. The rest of the time, I've been a Guardsman or Reservist, and recently passed the 30-year mark for total service.

I don't think I ever would have been a good fit for the "regular" army (I hate military politics just as much as I hate office politics), but I'm the type they need for when an actual war comes along. And frankly, the military people I serve with, even the foreigners who have enlisted in our army, are, on the average, far superior to those I meet and work with in civilian life. (No druggies, no felons, and increasingly, if you're a leader, even being an asshole can get you bounced out UNLESS your efficiency reports -- evaluations by your superiors -- show you to be ABOVE the average set by the performance of your peers).

One thing I've noticed in the Army -- those who adapt well to it, played team sports. Those who excel also played some individual sports. Those who played no sports rarely adapt well.

It's mostly that way in the civilian world, although it's harder to discern, because a bunch of computer engineers don't have to do organization-mandated physical training, let alone pass periodic physical fitness tests.

Why have I stayed in past 20 years, and now 30 years? One -- to pass on my knowledge and experience to as many younger soldiers, and new leaders, as I can. Two -- those physical fitness tests. They inspire me to get my lazy rear end off the couch and do what it takes to pass my physical fitness test. I have no desire to be on the 1st Sergeant's physical fitness test failures list -- trying to beat a required time for a 2-mile run when the weather is 5 degrees below the freezing point of water is an exercise in futility for me... which means I have to keep taking that test, every month, until spring comes and I can finally pass. Better to just pass it the first time, so better to be in such good shape that I don't have the slightest doubt that I will pass.

End

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 3:06 AM  

"Akulkis, you ever ask your dad why he acted the way he did when you were growing up? It sounds like he made a lot of mistakes and was far from perfect, but you might be setting up unrealistic expectations for him and not considering his side of the story."

No.

The man won't even admit to obvious mistakes (like putting a camera on the roof of the car while packing up to go on vacation, then forgetting that it's there before backing the car out of the driveway).

Any such discussion would be either diverted, or turned back around on my failures that he set me up for. I have only occasional contact with my parents now, and ONLY when other family members will be present.

I know that his household growing up was worse. From little tidbits listening of conversations between my dad (the youngest of 3 brothers) and the middle brother -- very close -- worked in the same Cadillac plant, both in management, although my dad started as a clerk on midnight shift in the garage that service the company trucks that haul parts and empty part pallets between plants), my grandfather (their father) was a terrible alcoholic.

I never saw that side of him, because by the time I was 3 or so, he had been permanently layed off (From Chrysler) due to having contracted Multiple Sclerosis. My grandma sometimes lamented that had he never accepted the promotion from draftsman to supervisor, the UAW's disability insurance would have had them in a much better financial situation).

Anyways, according to my mom, when my dad was younger, and my grandpa was drunk mad about something (that more than likely, never even happened) my two uncles (the older boys) would hide in closets from him. I remember my grandma being extremely harsh on my grandpa for leaving fingerprints on the walls (I first remember him needing a cane to walk... eventually needing a walker, and then finally was unable to even get around with that by the time I was in junior high school). In retrospect, I think she was just paying him back for all of the unnecessary commotion he must have caused all the years before MS took him out.

My dad.... well, in college, I worked in plant security at that same plant. One night, a guy coming out of a department (front wheel drive) which my dad used to manage a few years previous, recognized my face for the similarity to my father's (my mom used to sometimes refer to me as my dad's clone), and made a remark of what he would like to do to my dad if he ever chanced upon him (my dad) in a dark alley. But it was less matter-of-fact or opinion tone of voice, but more of a threatening one.

I defused the situation by saying, "I understand. You're lucky you don't have to live in the same house with him."

The man's demeanor towards me changed from having a scowl on his face to what I see when I run into one of the guys in my unit from my deployment in Bagdad. The camaraderie of having endured similar hardship from the same source.

My dad easily fits the BPD criteria. He doesn't exhibit the full constellation, but exceeds the minimal amount.

There's no need to discuss WHY he does what he does. And if he were to be truly honest, I doubt he could tell you. It's an emotional disorder, and although he likes to think of himself as a very rational man, he is the most emotion-driven man I have ever known.

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 3:12 AM  

"He ended up with a warped idea of his father as a kind of supervillain of his life, and then he ended up addicted to sex just the same way. He had so little self-control for that he refused to wear condoms because it doesn't feel as good, so were his words

I don't know about no BPD, but I can see something was hurting within the soul of that dude."

1: RISKY sex is an indicator or BPD.

2: His BPD is probably a direct result of how his father treated him as a child. think of it... his father three kids by women women other than his his wife (your friend's mother). Again, risky sex (why was he getting all those women pregnant?) And why so many? These are the kinds of things that are rife among BPD's. You find it most in ghettos, which are overflowing with BPD types, but really, throughout all of society, even up to the upper echelons (Bill Clinton and Barak Obama. Both are gay, and being gay is an almost 100% comorbidity with BPD. Hillary Clinton is BPD in it's most whacked out form....I'm quite sure the long trail of dead bodies from the Clintons have more to do with Hillary than with Bill.)

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 3:57 AM  

"What I mean is, Akulkis, I don't know what the cost-to-repair/durability ratio of automatic transmissions has to do with what I said"

When I take a photograph, the details just happen, because the lens + (film or image sensor) system captured the pattern of light and dark.

When I make a drawing or painting, those details are there because I took the time and effort to put them there. I put them there, because, for whatever reason, the picture wouldn't be complete without them. Something would be missing for the viewer. This goes for EVERY drawing, painting, or sculpture you ever see that isn't abstract art or other crap like that.

Similarly, when I write a reply here... sometimes, the end of a tangent is to support, to complete an aside, which supports the main thrust of what I'm trying to convey. The end of the tangent doesn't directly relate to the main point... but it does fill out the importance of an easily glossed over aside.

In this case, my dad's household projects and minor car maintenance projects (changing brake shoes on our old Valiant, for example, or helping to change some other part -- I think it was an alternator -- I, with my small hands, could get a wire onto a bolt easier than he could... and later in high school, helping a friend do some car repairs on his car -- I had no idea what he was doing, but I helped him turn wrenches) gave me the confidence to work on my first car (73 Dodge Polara with a 360 cu. in. V-8. Sister car to the Plymouth Fury), and before 2 year, I did a timing chain and timing gear replacement on it when I was home on winter break form college my sophomore year (timing chain jumped when my brother was driving it). I had to remove everything from the radiator to the front face of the engine block. And this was in the middle of the freezing winter... AND I was working 40 hours/week at a local Burger King (to help cover tuition costs and have some spending money during the semester on top of my on-campus job).

Ok, so I got pretty accomplished at fixing cars. But doing a automatic transmission rebuild is beyond me. I can get one out, and put one in, but rebuilding one CORRECTLY is not something someone is going to do without taking a technician's course which is just as involved, if not more, than a college level chemistry course.

I don't like paying $100/hour for mechanics' time. If I do the work on my car, than I'm effectively earning $100/hour (no, most mechanics don't earn that much...because that $100/hour covers various overhead costs, like utilities, taxes, and most of all insurance (a typical garage's insurance for workplace accidents and indemnification for faulty work is over $1 Million/year).
1/2

Blogger Akulkis February 03, 2020 3:59 AM  

2/2

It's not just that automatic transmissions are expensive to rebuild... it's that in a typical car (there are exceptions), that automatic transmission is going to have to be built at least once before the engine gives out. It took me 2 times before I learned this lesson.

I don't buy new cars. You can replace the entire drive train on a used car for less than a year's worth of payments (on a 5-year loan) for a new car. I don't take out loans to buy a car. Why pay interest -- I save, and when I need a new car, I pay cash. Then I drive it until I can't fix it (I will pay for exhaust work and shock/strut replacement. Because the mechanics can do it so quickly that even at $100/hour shop time, me doing the work myself would be so much slower it's worth it to pay a garage to do it. They've got the hydraulic car lifts, and the specialized tools to do the job quickly.)

The An automatic transmission costs just as much (if not more) to repair than the engine that turns it. And has half the life time. And they are guaranteed to wear out, whereas even the most difficult to replace body sections (rear quarter on a unibody car) generally doesn't wear out.

So, cost of repair, VERY HIGH (depending on the car, not even worth paying for the repair -- have it towed to the junk yard)
Longevity... at best, 50% of the useful life of the engine (if the engine is decently maintained. Change the damned oil).

The point was about what I learned from these projects with my dad (as crazy, and utterly infuriating, as he may be). It was to underscore that I go YEARS without paying a mechanic to do anything on my cars...even though I buy cars that are typically 10 years old. And part of that is NOT buying cars with automatic transmissions. Whatever price the trans shop tells you, and whatever time frame they give you for having the rebuild complete... DOUBLE BOTH OF THEM. I have better things to do than spend $3000 keeping an otherwise perfectly good car on the road, when I can operate a clutch and gear shift, get better mileage, be able to start the car with a nearly dead battery by pushing it, by only buying cars with manual transmissions.

Giving a kid enough introductory experience in a field, so that he feels confident enough to handle bigger projects by himself, ones that he's never done before, are extremely important for your boy to develop into a man.

I know I can't rebuild a trans without investing so much time into it that I would have to rebuild 10 transmissions before I would break even.

Learning to recognize what you can tackle, and what you shouldn't tackle, is also part of that. Understanding that an automatic transmission is THE weak link in an automobile is important.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 03, 2020 1:47 PM  

That actually sounds a lot like my great grandfather on my father's side. Thanks for sharing that with me man

Blogger Scott February 03, 2020 6:52 PM  

@Lamarck Leland

Similar story. I was an Omega in Junior High School, and most of the "cool" crowd hated me almost as much as I hated them.

Come highschool, I'm the most successful football player in my year. I win MVP twice, spend three years starting on the varsity team, and the coaches make me a team Captain as a Junior.

Senior year rolls around, and the "cool kids" from junior high are now captains of the football team with me. Before the season starts they get together and decide I'm no longer a Captain, opening up a spot for their friend.

I agree, and go back to being a Delta on the team. The coaches intervene, but for the rest of my senior year I was a captain in name only.

Omegas are not leadership material. They were right to try to replace me. I didn't want to be on the team in the first place, because I had to spend so much of my time surrounded by people I didn't want to be around.

You CAN force an extreme introvert to play and excel in a sport like my father did. It won't "fix" the Omega tendency.

Why be part of the group? Most people are cunts. Omegas have better things to do than play dominance games to see who can be king shit of shit mountain.

Blogger Scott February 03, 2020 7:51 PM  

Omega here. I turned my life over to God, and he has me working as a truck driver.

Most of my time is spent watching the world drift by while listening to audiobooks.

I make good money and get weekends off to attent church. Kife is good.

Blogger Scott February 03, 2020 7:53 PM  

@map oh, and as a trucker showers are optional. But, I religiously follow bink webelfs advice to take a shower every month - whether I need it or not!

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 04, 2020 11:09 AM  

Scott wrote:Omegas are not leadership material. They were right to try to replace me. I didn't want to be on the team in the first place, because I had to spend so much of my time surrounded by people I didn't want to be around.
Omega is low functioning Sigma. Sigma is high functioning Omega. Neither is going to participate in the hierarchy without a reason.
Scott wrote:But, I religiously follow bink webelfs advice to take a shower every month - whether I need it or not!
Showering is worth it, because if the smell doesn't give you away, you can move among the masses without being attacked.

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