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Saturday, May 09, 2020

Most Italian deaths were NOT coronavirus


At least, not according to the Italian National Institute of Health.

"Non dite anche qui venticinque mille morti. Non è vero! Non usati per retorica e terrorismo. I dati di Istituto Superiore dal Sanità dicono che il novantasei virgula tre percento sono morti per altro patologie."
- Vittorio Sgarbi

Translation: Also, do not say here 25,000 deaths. It is not true! Do not use the deaths for rhetoric and terrorism. The data from the National Institute of Health says that 96.3 percent died from other diseases.

Vittorio Sgarbi is a Member of Parliament representing Emiglia-Romagna and is a member of the Forza Italia party.

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98 Comments:

Blogger liberranter May 09, 2020 11:09 AM  

This should surprise exactly no one who has been paying even cursory attention to global trends with this virus. The only surprise here is that this information has bern made public, destructive of the globalist narrative as it is.

Blogger WileyCoyote May 09, 2020 11:09 AM  

So it was all a hoax????

Blogger Crew May 09, 2020 11:25 AM  

But, but, Muh Science!

Oh, wait. Muh Science also tells us to close the borders:

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/scientific-research-finds-closing-borders-most-effective-way-combatting-covid-19

Reeeeeeeeeee. Abandon Science. It is no longer useful!

Blogger tuberman May 09, 2020 11:41 AM  

There IS going to be MUCH more of these Truths. Also the blow-back against the various Democrat, Globalist, and/or DS tyranny of these excessive lock-downs will be awesome.

Letting murders and sex offenders out of prison while locking up regular protesters. Putting Covid-19 positive patients into nursing homes with the most vulnerable aged people (even if you despise the Silent Generation, this is to stack the statistics, not to carry out your agenda). They've stacked together numerous statistical lies in every direction to get control of the worlds population, and destroy the economies.

Blogger Scuzzaman May 09, 2020 11:43 AM  

Well, plainly he has to be locked up as a dangerous heretic, his videos scrubbed from social media, his name erased from polite history.

Not exactly a hoax, Wiley. Bad treatment advice such as rushing to ventilate old people whose lungs are already weak will almost certainly (about 96.3 percent of the time) kill them.

And the deaths prove that getting the virus really is deadly.

It’s just not what kills you.

Or, more likely, your grandmother.

Blogger Bellomy May 09, 2020 11:50 AM  

No, it was not all a hoax. Just overblown. Speculate as to why, I suppose.

Blogger Basta Con La Droga May 09, 2020 11:51 AM  

Vittorio is the man, I've been following him since 1989. Also, he's hilarious in a good way.

Blogger David Quintero May 09, 2020 11:59 AM  

If a 400-pound man dies after falling into a diabetic coma, we say diabetes was the cause of death. But we know what really "killed" him.

When a patient has a range of life-threatening afflictions, we have to choose one for semantic's sake. If a 400-pound man catches COVID-19 and dies from pulmonary failure within a week, he died from COVID-19. What's the big deal? Only a buffoon would call this to question.

Blogger glueballs May 09, 2020 12:01 PM  

Commentators publicly wonder why certain territories experience greater Covid 19 death rates in comparison with other places. If truth be told, we’re going to find the discrepancies are almost strictly the result of how deaths are coded as influenced by the coding entity’s perceived self-interest.
The wife and I spent more than a dozen years visiting northern Italy one or more times each year until her health issues stopped our visits. I really hope we can resume our travels, perhaps even take those of you who live or visit there out to a group meal. Ciao.

Blogger Doktor Jeep May 09, 2020 12:14 PM  

The biggest con since ....since...
uh oh

Blogger WillBound May 09, 2020 12:17 PM  

Ann Barnhardt was saying the same weeks ago.

Blogger Iamblichus May 09, 2020 12:21 PM  

Big Bear called it the lie is much bigger than that. Zero evidence that viruses are causal to disease. None of Kochs causal postulates ever been met. See Doctor Andrew Kaufmans work amoung others

Blogger Joe Smith May 09, 2020 12:22 PM  

If the media whipped everyone up into a frenzy over nothing, then that would be essentially par for the course. The one true thing the mainstream has learned is that the more afraid they can make us, the more garbage we'll take.

Blogger Nathan Hornok May 09, 2020 12:24 PM  

The same story is happening here, particularly in NY, and you can see for yourself. Search google for "Weekly Counts of Deaths by State and Select Causes, 2019-2020." In that page select the blue "view data" box. Then type in "new york city" in the 'find in this dataset' search box. This will bring up total deaths for each week, along with columns that separate the cause of death into various categories. You will see that starting around week 12 of this year, overall deaths started going up. There are increases in the "respiratory illness" columns. But most striking is the "heart disease" category where deaths are usually around 300 per week, and they jumped up to 1,300 during the covid panic. Even categories like alzheimers and diabetes had increased numbers starting at week 12 (about the time the covid panic began).

Just in the last few days, they added two "coronavirus" columns. This is obviously to cover their tracks since these columns were NOT there 2 days ago when I last looked at this page. But notice how in the two coronavirus columns, the deaths from these columns adds up to more than the total deaths. So they are definitely trying to double count things and add coronavirus as the cause of death to as many other diseases as they can.

I would agree that covid is killing more than the usual amount of viral pneumonia deaths that we normally see in the elderly and co-morbid populations. However, it is clear that they are doing everything they can to exaggerate the covid death numbers. Furthermore, after weeks of loneliness and neglect, I have no doubt that the elderly are dying from all sorts of diseases in higher numbers than they otherwise would be. Tragically, the hospitals can attribute these deaths of neglect to covid, and get extra medicare payments as their reward for their accidental, or purposeful mistreatment of the lonely old. This is a catastrophic tragedy of our own making. Produced from our own delusional arrogance about our ability to conquer death.

Blogger Iamblichus May 09, 2020 12:28 PM  

Whole field of virology appears to be built on a false assumption


https://www.facebook.com/notes/dr-andrew-moulden/the-deception-of-virology-vaccines-why-coronavirus-is-not-contagious/3005945509462155/

Blogger buwaya May 09, 2020 12:42 PM  

The Spanish use their civil registry (that records residence, births, deaths, etc) to track excess deaths as a check on medical reporting. They can do that because it is a remarkably efficient system that updates in near real time. I dont know if Italy does something like that. It is a useful reality check on medical reporting.

A sample of the Spanish daily updates-
https://www.isciii.es/QueHacemos/Servicios/VigilanciaSaludPublicaRENAVE/EnfermedadesTransmisibles/MoMo/Paginas/Informes-MoMo-2020.aspx

In the Spanish case there was indeed a great increase in overall mortality over the period.

The US system is in comparison opaque and has great lags in data. Someone will have to eventually check overall mortality to figure if all the current reporting is accurate.

Blogger awildgoose May 09, 2020 12:45 PM  

David Quintero wrote:What's the big deal? Only a buffoon would call this to question.

BREAKING: Funeral Directors in COVID-19 Epicenter Doubt Legitimacy of Deaths Attributed to Pandemic, Fear Numbers are 'Padded'

https://www.projectveritas.com/news/breaking-funeral-directors-in-covid-19-epicenter-doubt-legitimacy-of-deaths/

In addition, Birx publicly stated they were being, 'liberal,' about counting CV-19 deaths at one of the task force presentations. CDC has also issued guidelines to count, 'deaths with' as 'deaths from.'

There are also financial incentives from the Federal Gov't to log CV-19 patients and ventilate them.

Meanwhile, Cuomo has the NY State Police running around mining care homes for bodies while the NYC hospital system is trying to ventilate as many patients as possible to death.

The death numbers are far too high and the infection numbers are far too low because of our laugable testing regime.

Then, there is Professor Pantsdown Ferguson:

I have Reviewed Ferguson’s Code – It’s a Joke

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/corruption/i-have-reviewed-fergusons-code/

LOCKED OUT Prof Neil Ferguson resigns as government coronavirus scientist after ‘breaking lockdown rules to meet his married lover’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11556697/professor-neil-ferguson-resigns-breaks-uk-coronavirus-lockdown-rules/

In exchange for the tens, possibly hundreds of millions of lives that have been made worse by his lunatic UFO-cult predictions he and his team should go decorate the inside of a woodchipper.

Blogger buwaya May 09, 2020 12:48 PM  

The Spanish data shows a great increase in mortality as recorded in civil records over the coronavirus period. This also indicates that the plague is effectively over, as of last week more or less, as overall mortality has returned to the normal range. I suspect the same has happened in Italy.

As for whether all those people died of coronavirus - it would be difficult to explain, otherwise, why so many more people than usual died during this period.

Blogger borsabil May 09, 2020 12:49 PM  

The UK government is only now demanding that foreigners go into a 14 day quarantine on arrival. Even then it will be voluntary self isolation. We know the main originators of infection clusters are travelers (just like with every other infectious bug).

The main vectors of infection are nursing homes and hospitals. The Governor of New York forced nursing homes to accept patients with Coronavirus into their facilities and then refused to provide them with PPE. Similar stories abound in every other country with bad outbreaks and high mortality. Regulators refusing to evacuate nursing homes when infection takes hold and not allowing them to lock down or provide cheap test kits to screen their staff.

In hospitals treatment protocols for this bug involve intubation and full sedation on a ventilator for patients requiring more than 6L of oxygen, even though we know patients put on ventilators show a 90% mortality rate and high flow oxygen with a re-breather and/or non invasive CPAP have shown far better outcomes. Similarly Corticosteroids were immediately ruled out from the beginning of this outbreak even though they were THE go to drug of choice to treat SARS.

No testing for months and then an avalanche of positive cases when they started screening, artificially pump up the death rate. Panic the Karens who thought this was a legit plague and have the public not just accept suspension of their rights but outright demand it.

Blogger buwaya May 09, 2020 12:51 PM  

Another bit of interest in the Spanish data is that it confirms that overall mortality changed very little in the nations south, Andalucia etc., versus Madrid and Barcelona. And Spains south has big cities full of tourists and expats.

This is analogous to Italy's case, where there has been next to no effect in Naples, say, vs Lombardy.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 09, 2020 12:58 PM  

The joke on the medical forums is that Covid-19 has cured cancer and heart disease because no one has died of those things in months.

Blogger Ledford Ledford May 09, 2020 1:06 PM  

A whole lot of Italians died. Far more than any actuarial table would predict. Chances of that absent a catastrophe are near zero. Something killed them.

If it wasn't the Wuhan Plague, what was it? Cosmic rays?

Blogger Jay Will May 09, 2020 1:08 PM  

Deep state/China move confirmed. Nativists getting it the worst all enemies of deep state - Trump, Brexit and Italy. Super gimps of Sweden, lovers of the mask, get the soft treatment.

Blogger Dan in Georgia May 09, 2020 1:14 PM  

If you want more of something, subsidize it.

In the US, the cry for ventilators began with a $39,000 subsidy for each use which pays for each ventilator 3-4 times. They get $13,000 (or I've heard $17,000) per corona "diagnosis" without any proof. This turned into a money grab impressively fast.

Billie Jean Gates will be wanting her African genocide money back.

Blogger Maniac May 09, 2020 1:16 PM  

A former co-worker of mine recently passed away because of it, but he also had major COPD.

You want to hear a Coronavirus joke? You probably won't get it.

Blogger Wormwood May 09, 2020 1:26 PM  

If it were staged, then that would explain why only certain locations are being "decimated" by the virus. They simply don't have the resources to stage that kind of show in every town across the world. They are having to pick high profile areas and make examples out of them. It would also explain why the virus has been almost completely absent in places that are too unstable for such a production to be staged.

Blogger Yossarian May 09, 2020 1:30 PM  

Diseases and medical conditions are standardized world-wide. Each illness has a code. There is no code for "Covid-19". The only mention of "coronavirus" is under "Other infections". Hospitals are incentivized to place as many of these codes on their patient sheets as they can because of funding. Basically the more grave the illness the greater the cost they can claim either as a subsidy or direct billing. The order in which these codes are placed is very important: first code = primary diagnosis, second code = secondary diagnosis, 3rd, 4th, etc. If a patient goes into a clinic for diabetes but they also have an unrelated heart disease, because heart disease are the most costly they usually get primacy either placed as first or second. It doesn't matter whether the heart condition is minor, under control, or asymptomatic, this is about financing and not the medical act per se. Whether you're healthy or not if you get hospitalized for one day you will come out of the hospital with at least 2 diagnoses. It's the law. If the hospital sends home a healthy person they're gonna lose money.

All of this data is placed into one massive giant world-wide data-base. If you search in the database for "other infections" you're gonna find millions of hits. This is all useless data because you have to control for where these diagnoses were placed in the order of importance in the patient charts.

Furthermore there's no such thing as "death by Covid-19" or death by "other infections". Causes of death much like illnesses are also standardized world-wide. And much like illnesses, hospitals are also incentivized to place as many causes of death as possible. When they get a 2000$ subsidy from the government for disposing of Covid-19 deaths it's not as if anyone's gonna check if they spent that money on the proper procedures of disposing of the body or they just did what they've always done then just pocketed the extra cash. I know of cases where coroners talk with the family beforehand and both agree on the lie and splitting the money.

I don't trust the Sick Map data in the slightest. Funny how they switched from 3 data sets (Active cases, Cured cases, and Deaths) to 2 sets: Confirmed and Deaths.

Blogger Rocklea Marina May 09, 2020 1:30 PM  

One can quibble about comorbidities but the real toll will come from comparing total death rates for all causes over the same time period historically, adjusting for population changes. Do this for NYC and from March 15th to May 2nd you get 323% above normal with 23000 excess deaths, 18706 reported as covid-19, leaving a 4300 person gap which would indicate under reporting. Are they real figures? What do I know? I am just a brain in a tank.

Blogger glueballs May 09, 2020 1:31 PM  

@ 22. Ledford Ledford

A whole lot of Italians died. Far more than any actuarial table would predict. Chances of that absent a catastrophe are near zero. Something killed them.

If it wasn't the Wuhan Plague, what was it? Cosmic rays?


Link to the data which supports your claim a “whole lot” died beyond the mortality tables for a peak flu season. The fact is, many of those who perished regrettably did suffer weakening by Corona-chan but they were already in regular communication with St. Peter and had taken their number.

This event was by no means a catastrophe unless somebody close to you died, in which instance your emotions are understandable but that’s not data.

Oh, and “cosmic rays” kill Corona-chan in her tracks before she can do harm. We should welcome the cosmic rays onto our streets and buildings.

Blogger Mario S May 09, 2020 1:43 PM  

I agree with Sgarbi. Lots of media dramatization. And we want to know what really went on. Did vaccines play a part? And the countries with most deaths in relation to population are in order Belgium, Spain, Italy, UK and France. And Italy, not including Lombardy, has a death rate equal to that of Sweden. Something unusual happened in Lombardy.

Blogger John Bradley May 09, 2020 1:54 PM  

The PA Speaker of the House recently posted a report to the effect that nearly everyone who's died 'from' the disease has been an old sick person in a nursing home. No threat to the general population, not even close to overwhelming the hospitals. Yet we remain shutdown.

link

Sadly, most of the replies are of the "you Republicans just want to kill old people" variety. But Twitter, y'know... place is a cesspool.

Blogger Lazarus May 09, 2020 2:29 PM  

Re-branding works.

Blogger Ledford Ledford May 09, 2020 2:30 PM  

Link to the data which supports your claim a “whole lot” died beyond the mortality tables for a peak flu season.
Many, many, many links but here's the first one that popped up:
https://towardsdatascience.com/covid-19-excess-mortality-figures-in-italy-d9640f411691

In Bergamo, deaths were up almost 300%. Ask a life insurance company how often that happens, flu or not. Maybe people in Bergamo live constantly at death's door, and this year it opened. Just bad luck, I guess.

Blogger VFM #7634 May 09, 2020 2:48 PM  

The Spanish data shows a great increase in mortality as recorded in civil records over the coronavirus period. This also indicates that the plague is effectively over, as of last week more or less, as overall mortality has returned to the normal range. I suspect the same has happened in Italy.

@18 buwaya

The closest thing I could find for the U.S. is data for % of deaths due to pneumonia, influenza, and covid, which can be found here:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/05082020/nchs-mortality-report.html

Basically it's very similar to what we see in Spain, taking into account that the U.S. is a couple of weeks behind Spain.

Blogger James Lovebirch May 09, 2020 2:51 PM  

I believe it's true Koch's postulates have not been satisfied for this coronavirus or any other virus. All attempts that I'm aware of to experimentally verify that the usual diseases are viral have shown they are not transmitted via touch, breath or mucus to healthy people.

If anyone is aware of a book that goes through the scientific case for the virus theory, I'd like to read it.

To the people who are talking about an overall increase in mortality, we'll see if that's true, but I also wonder if it would be due to some combination of isolation, fear and death by ventilator or other causes we're not thinking of right now.

Blogger Azimus May 09, 2020 2:52 PM  

A senator from Minnesota pointed out that part of the coronavirus relief package included a provision to A) pay an additional 20% for coronavirus victims and more importantly B) allow a "probable" coronavirus death to be sufficient threshhold for such payment. The latter is completely unprecedented, and even usa today and snopes had to begrudgingly admit that this was the truth.

Blogger Azimus May 09, 2020 2:53 PM  

@ John Bradley re: twitter

Twitter! It says "twit" right in the name!

Blogger Unknown May 09, 2020 3:01 PM  

The hypocrisy was monumental. The games these uber schooled elites played on the masses while gloating deserves retribution. The "do as I say, not as I do" because I'm a scientist and thus an Elite, should have be a red flag to everyone. The media and elites gave scared the population to such an extent, my parents are afraid to see their grandchildren, sone of my friends that I admired as "hard-asses" have been reduced to "think of the children"
apologists for totalitarianism.

Blogger urthshu May 09, 2020 3:06 PM  

>> that nearly everyone who's died 'from' the disease has been an old sick person in a nursing home

Mostly true from what I've seen. Obviously if it gets out of hand the health care system can get overwhelmed, but more than anything this event should trigger review of our nursing homes and their policies. I don't suspect it will.

Blogger Wormwood May 09, 2020 3:09 PM  

Rocklea Marina wrote:One can quibble about comorbidities but the real toll will come from comparing total death rates for all causes over the same time period historically, adjusting for population changes. Do this for NYC and from March 15th to May 2nd you get 323% above normal with 23000 excess deaths, 18706 reported as covid-19, leaving a 4300 person gap which would indicate under reporting. Are they real figures? What do I know? I am just a brain in a tank.

Not many people have said that there isn't a nasty bug going around. However, to shutdown the world requires more than just a nasty bug. It has to be much worse than anything since the Spanish Flu, and this isn't. What its lacked in intensity they've made up for with drama, where they had the trusted manpower to pull it off. Anti-body testing is proving that most people who have contracted it haven't even sought medical attention.

Blogger Unknown May 09, 2020 3:10 PM  

Even economic data is revised months and even years after the period in question and thats during normal times. I wouldn't be surprised if we over-reacted and double counted whether intentionally or not.

Blogger Tetro May 09, 2020 3:10 PM  

Corona Holohoax

Blogger urthshu May 09, 2020 3:13 PM  

BTW from the calls I'm making what I see in regards to the nursing homes is absolutely predictable for anyone here.

Absentee owners, administration more interested in cost cutting for the absentee owners than in the employees or residents, bureaucratic fuckups, and foreign or ghetto class workers. The foreigners are usually pretty decent about obeying rules but the others are out partying constantly despite having positive COVID tests and under isolation orders. Side note: STD numbers are climbing steadily.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 09, 2020 3:13 PM  

"No, it was not all a hoax. Just overblown."

I have to disagree. It's one thing for something to barely trip the low threshold of a high-alarm system. It's another thing for people looking right at it to not propagate that information immediately. It's been known for months and is being suppressed. Is there a disease? Yes, but this magnitude of overreaction can't "just happen" for this long without people who know better ensuring it.

Or alternatively, our systems of virologists, epidemiologists, and so on known nothing at all, but this is self-falsifying because if they know nothing, why did they scream so loud and long?

Blogger Unknown May 09, 2020 3:20 PM  

As if progressives care about anything old and of the past.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 09, 2020 3:22 PM  

What does it tell you when the average age of death due to corona-chan in the USA is >80 years?

Blogger Revelation Means Hope May 09, 2020 3:29 PM  

Oh come on. Flu doesn't kill anyone either. It's the pneumonia and other organ failures that kill. What a tool.

Might as well say their lifetime of poor eating choices and smoking and drinking weakened their cardiovascular systems and that killed them, not Corona virus.

Blogger tuberman May 09, 2020 3:30 PM  

"If a 400-pound man catches COVID-19 and dies from pulmonary failure within a week, he died from COVID-19."

Give it a break, it's far worse then that.

1) In some hospitals and areas ALL deaths have been attributed to Covid-19, without even any tests, because politics and money incentives. Got it -- they do not even test in these hospitals and areas. Many died at home and there were NO TESTS. This has been reported by funeral homes.

2) In NY, the USA Northwest, and in parts of Italy Nursing Homes have been targeted to make sure Covid-19 patients were placed there among the most vulnerable people who take pain meds blood pressure meds, and heart meds that increase the intensity of Covid-19 by multiple times to kill people -- both to 'catch' the virus and to kill them after. ACE Inhibitors, are the enhancers for Covid-19, some a little bit, and some by a huge margin. Who takes these drugs?

This was not an accident, the people that placed the Covid-19 positives in that environment knew exactly the effect
This was intentional murder to get the numbers up for Fear to control population.

Blogger Rick May 09, 2020 3:33 PM  

Not one person do I know, personally, who has tested positive + serious hospitalization, never mind died from it.

But I heard a guy who heard of a guy who did test positive.

I know a couple people who have had symptoms. Nothing bad enough to visit a hospital, and did not even get a test. Coulda been anything.

How can that be, according to the published numbers? In a town of 20,000, shouldn’t I know someone personally by now? We begin to open some businesses on 20 May, which is to say, we are still in lock-down.

Best thing about this lock-down economic experiment:

We ain’t ever going through it again.

Blogger thethirdcoast May 09, 2020 3:46 PM  

glueballs wrote:Oh, and “cosmic rays” kill Corona-chan in her tracks before she can do harm. We should welcome the cosmic rays onto our streets and buildings.

We laugh, but you've pointed out something that has really bothered me during this situation - the "expert" denial that the WuFlu has special, UV-resistant powers.

UV's ability to destroy viruses IS something that can and has been proven repeatedly.

This same argument applies to the "expert" insistence that the ONLY possible solution to CV-19 is a vaccine. Why? Many extremely smart, well-funded people have spent years trying to develop coronavirus vaccines and have always failed.

Again, what is so special about the WuFlu that the "expert" technocrats certain a vaccine is the only way.

These two points really bother me because you know who speaks in absolutes? Children. Real adults living in the adult world understand that life is an endless series of compromises and tradeoffs.

Blogger thethirdcoast May 09, 2020 3:49 PM  

John Bradley wrote:Sadly, most of the replies are of the "you Republicans just want to kill old people" variety. But Twitter, y'know... place is a cesspool.

Sounds like the reddit hivemind is leaking.

Speaking of the hivemind, I was lurking there earlier and they are drowning in a tsunami of their own ejaculate after learning that Ventilator Cuomo has pushed NY State reopening back to June 7th.

Blogger Akulkis May 09, 2020 4:01 PM  

"Big Bear called it the lie is much bigger than that. Zero evidence that viruses are causal to disease. None of Kochs causal postulates ever been met. See Doctor Andrew Kaufmans work amoung others"

The success of the smallpox vaccine disproves your opinion.

Blogger Bearable Pain May 09, 2020 4:13 PM  

Just like with HIV there appears to be no 'purity standard' for the alleged virus. That's why the Sick-Team66 are the same military HIV doctors/researchers from the 1980s running the same drill under a new world-wide paradigm.

Blogger z May 09, 2020 4:33 PM  

Anti-coronavirus supplements one can take:

Zinc
Vitamin C
Vitamin D *(get it from sunlight)

Echinacea, a source of potent antivirals for respiratory virus infectuoins-NCBI https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4058675/

Ginger (natural anti-viral)
Garlic (natural anti-viral)
Elderberry (natural anti-viral)
Black pepper (natural anti-viral, and you have it now.....as in salt & pepper)


I wager all these things would help, but big pharma is in no hurry to let you know that and big media wants as many dead bodies as possible (anything to beat Trump).

Blogger Sam Gem May 09, 2020 5:13 PM  

World Hoax Organization

Blogger VFM #7634 May 09, 2020 5:30 PM  

Big Bear called it the lie is much bigger than that. Zero evidence that viruses are causal to disease. None of Kochs causal postulates ever been met. See Doctor Andrew Kaufmans work amoung others

@12 lamblichus

That's horse hockey. If viruses don't cause disease, then what does, smart boy?

Blogger JG May 09, 2020 5:44 PM  

If the CCPVirus was designed, the designer was an evil genius, as the virus only kills those with a chronic condition such as obesity, diabetes, heart disease, geriatric disease, etc., and leaves healthy people alone.

Blogger Storm Rhode May 09, 2020 6:19 PM  

It's anecdotal but devastating. Nurse Nicole Sirotek made a video meltdown about incompetence in New York hospitals killing covid patients and blaming it on covid. It's on YouTube.

Blogger Yossarian May 09, 2020 6:22 PM  

Another peculiarity is how only those afraid of the virus seem to be the ones most affected. It's as if the most studied phenomenon in all of medicine, the placebo effect, works both ways.

Blogger Sicilian Switchblade May 09, 2020 6:32 PM  

I remember the stats coming out from Italy 5 weeks ago had over half of the deaths over the age of 70 and the corona-chan "victims" had 3 other life threatening illnesses at time of death.

So if a guy gets shot, stabbed, hit in the head with a club, then falls down the stairs and dies, we can say in all fairness he died from a fall dow the stairs.

Just last week a neighboring state released stats that 39% of all deaths in that state were from nursing home residents.

If these numbers are even to be taken seriously coming from mainstream media outlets...

I'm still calling this a scam-demic every chance I get.

The real virus is fear.

Blogger braq May 09, 2020 6:59 PM  

A few questions for the "viruses aren't real" crowd:

1: What are scientists reporting when they sequence the genomes of various viruses, and scientists elsewhere report the same sequences? Is this all some kind of disinformation or plot shared by gel-running co-conspirators/clueless idiots worldwide?

2: If viruses don't cause illness (and/or don't exist), what causes genital herpes and cold-sores? (And the flu, chickenpox, hep-c, HPV, common cold - a very long list)

I haven't watched Owen in some time and have no idea what "Koch's postulates" are but will google those. I did watch one of those Kaufman videos and while it was interesting, it was a single physician's opinion. You can find physicians or PhD "doctors" who will attest to the curative (or harmful) effects of literally anything you could think of, from drinking your own piss, to smoking cigarettes, to chanting Tibetan mantras, to staring at the sun. Their pedigrees are meaningless with regard to their ownership or knowledge of "the truth".

I'm willing to be convinced though, since I also used to think we were on a spinning globe before following OB down that rabbit hole.

Blogger Kiwi May 09, 2020 7:09 PM  

My understanding is that Italy has had higher flu related deaths, compared to similar countries, in the last ten or so years. I mused that this may have been why they were hit so hard, it's their normal.

However, it may be the way they've been reporting the deaths for the last ten years.

Flu or covid strike a the final blow, but what was the underlying weakness that allowed it to stomp the body to death so easily.

What are they hiding, what really is dangerous to our people? It's more likely obesity. It's our food. It's obvious if you look around, we're fat!

There is a more than ample supply of misleading info on weight for us to consume. For example, I'm the average weight of an American, that's how they sell it, you're average, you're okay. What they leave out is that I am not the average height. Squash me down to the average height of an American and I would be a fattie fattie boom boom heading for diabetes, stroke, heart attack, and finally easily blown to the ground by a a soft gust of flu.


Blogger eclecticmn May 09, 2020 7:11 PM  


@16. buwayaMay 09, 2020 12:42 PM
The Spanish use their civil registry (that records residence, births, deaths, etc) to track excess deaths as a check on medical reporting. They can do that because it is a remarkably efficient system that updates in near real time. I dont know if Italy does something like that. It is a useful reality check on medical reporting.

A sample of the Spanish daily updates-
https://www.isciii.es/QueHacemos/Servicios/VigilanciaSaludPublicaRENAVE/EnfermedadesTransmisibles/MoMo/Paginas/Informes-MoMo-2020.aspx

In the Spanish case there was indeed a great increase in overall mortality over the period.

The US system is in comparison opaque and has great lags in data. Someone will have to eventually check overall mortality to figure if all the current reporting is accurate.


The US has a site reporting excess deaths from all causes.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
Select "Excess Deaths Data Visualization"
At the bottom is a "dashboard" that offers 5 options and can view different states or the US. The data is from death certificates and lags by weeks. One dashboard option shows excess deaths (from all causes) with and without 'weighting'. You can eyeball the lag by looking at the far right and noticing the difference between light blue (weighted) and dark blue (reported). The CDC knows from historical data how much a state lags and adjusts the reported numbers upward by the historical incompleteness "weighting'. Deaths are said to be 'excess' by the amount they exceed a "threshold" which is based on a confidence interval and appears to be about 5% above the historical deaths. I believe the word "predicted' means weighted and predicts the past, already reported data, not the future.

The US is said to have 66,081 predicted excess deaths since New Years. My state of MN is said to have 76 predicted excess deaths since New Years.

The CDC notes says they manually enter many death certificates, especially flu related deaths. This in the year 2020! People outside the US say we should have govt run health care! That might work if it was the Norwegian or South Korean govt running US health care. Better yet have US states the size of some countries run their own health care.

Blogger Stephen May 09, 2020 7:16 PM  

I come from a tiny place, very few deaths (as in, 7, all very old people). Owen B, E Michael Jones, Peter Hitchens - all folks I've trusted in the past on everything from immigration to climate change hoax, saying it's overblown. Even friends in Italy saying they've heard rumours of deaths but haven't lost loved ones, or heard men ringing bells calling 'Bring out yer dead!'. I'd be inclined to take the Owen line that it's a hoax but for one annoying, anomalous piece of anecdotal evidence: I've got a male friend, 38 years old, supposedly no underlying conditions, lives in London, was sick for a week, ends up in hospital, on a ventilator for 42 days and in a coma for 48! His wife got sick for about a week, said it was the worst she's ever felt, but got over it. He's finally awake and docs say his lungs have healed, no lasting damage. The only wrinkle in this 'evidence' is that he does freelance tech work for NASA and his wife is the only person I've ever met who openly advocates in favour of a technocracy because she imagines a world run by the Star Trek federation. That's the only thing that makes my tinfoil hat spin and wonder if I've been getting near-daily updates on FB from friends who are actually Deep State agents who are now sipping mojitos in the Village where Patrick McGewan made The Prisoner.

Blogger buwaya May 09, 2020 7:18 PM  

It seems there is a European mortality reporting consortium, using civil records, in which Spain participates. I got the link from the Instituto Carlos III, which is the Spanish equivalent of the CDC. It is meant to track events just like this coronavirus outbreak. It does not cover all countries, and some only partially, and in some cases there are significant reporting lags, but the data is interesting.

https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

Italy participates too, and the excess mortality there is obvious. Signor Scarbi may want to have a look into this.

Also evident is the very close timing of all the outbreaks, in those countries that have it. Also interesting are the countries that have not had an outbreak at all. There is a great deal in all this that will have to be explained. There will be many years of investigation of this episode by a generation of academics. Have a look.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( according to the 13th Amendment, Slavery is neither Cruel nor Unusual: MSAGA ) May 09, 2020 7:29 PM  

2. WileyCoyote May 09, 2020 11:09 AM
So it was all a hoax????



not *entirely*.

it would not surprise me in the slightest if China has 6 figures of dead in which this disease is the primary cause.

of course, health care workers need to take extra precautions because they can easily be exposed to a large Viral Load ( large dose ) before their immune systems have had a chance to ramp up to deal with the problem.

also any elderly / emphysema / immuno-compromised ( all of Gay Bays bath houses say 'hello' ) / etc do not want to play with this at all.

as things stand today, the 'official' numbers in Indiana have been flat since April 22.

48.5% of the fatalities were over age 80 and 26% are between 70-79 with a further 16.6% between 60-69 which means 91.1% of all deaths are +60. in fact, the Age / Death curve is very nearly a geometric regression. we look to have 1 fatality under 20 and 2 from 20-29. we'll lose more <30s on a holiday weekend due to drunk driving.

https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/

Clay county ( pop ~26,000 ), the outbreak at the Tyson pork processing plant, has 2 deaths and +1500 cases. now, i realize that most of the serious cases in Clay county are probably being transferred to Indy or Ft Wayne or South Bend as there's no way Logansport hospital is prepared to handle that.
...
but we've had reports of improving health and then sudden collapse + death. shouldn't several such cases have landed in Clay? 2 deaths out of 1500 cases is a rounding error.



22. Ledford Ledford May 09, 2020 1:06 PM
If it wasn't the Wuhan Plague, what was it? Cosmic rays?



the Po valley has the worst air quality in Europe.

take decades of chronic lung damage and then expose them to a disease which attacks the lungs. what do you expect to happen?

once again, i'll point you to Hong Kong Flu. +100,000 dead in the US, 1-2 million world wide.

Corona is still under 280,000 according to official numbers ( 400,000 if we throw in expected actual Chinese rates ) and world pop is much greater today than it was in 1968.


somebody asked a while back why we don't all know someone who has died ... i may actually have gone to a funeral for one.

a friend of mine had her mother die in February, she was complaining of weakness and lethargy in addition to the cold she had.

lethargy is going to be a common side effect of lack of oxygen. and they live in Durham NC, cheek-by-jowl with a whole bunch of college students. many of whom are from China.

i suggested she ask her mother's physician if he has any tissue samples from just before her mother's death.
*shrugs*
it's a long shot, but we'll see.

Blogger eclecticmn May 09, 2020 7:31 PM  

@34. VFM #7634May 09, 2020 2:48 PM

The closest thing I could find for the U.S. is data for % of deaths due to pneumonia, influenza, and covid, which can be found here:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/05082020/nchs-mortality-report.html

Basically it's very similar to what we see in Spain, taking into account that the U.S. is a couple of weeks behind Spain.


The US data is clear as mud. The CDC knows that their normal reporting method lags too much to be useful in tracking flue outbreaks. So they have a second method which feeds into FLUView and FLUEView Interactive. I believe each Tuesday they collect flue related data from hospitals and labs. The CDC reports this reporting is 100% complete within 1 or 2 weeks? They do not say exactly what data they collect.

Reading the entrails of the CDC and taking a WAG (Wild Ass Guess) the flue deaths from FLUView might be based on the reported current number of hospital beads with flu patients multiplied by the fraction of such patients who die based on historical data. I am guess that such flu deaths are not based on counting dead people because the data is said to not be based on death certificates.

In short, the P&I mortality might be based on totally different data than normal mortality data. Yes, the US is that screwed up. E.g. the Obama care sign up software cost 1000x a reasonable amount. See cronyism, incompetence, and affirmative action.

Blogger bramley May 09, 2020 7:31 PM  

Emiglia-Romana: good cheese

Blogger Rough Carrigan May 09, 2020 8:08 PM  

#61, you seem to be afflicted with the Straw Man virus.
I'm not aware of anyone saying that viruses as a class "aren't real".
There are many types of viruses of varying concern for human beings. Covid-19 has been portrayed as something akin to the black plague by the U.S. media. It seems to be more like a souped up flu.

Blogger awildgoose May 09, 2020 9:50 PM  

Rick wrote:Not one person do I know, personally, who has tested positive + serious hospitalization, never mind died from it.

But I heard a guy who heard of a guy who did test positive.

I know a couple people who have had symptoms. Nothing bad enough to visit a hospital, and did not even get a test. Coulda been anything.


Rick-

I have had the exact same experience at the plant I work in. For reference of scale, the plant is a few hundred people in a 200k city, 1m metro area.

In three instances I know a guy who knows a guy who supposedly had WuFlu, but their symptoms were not severe enough to require any CV-19 testing at all.

The symptoms were described as a fever, difficult to shake dry cough, and minor aches.

Pretty much the same symptoms you'd just get from the flu, bro.

Blogger Gen. Kong May 09, 2020 10:05 PM  

One of the more interesting things to emerge this week were the positive results of COVID-19 tests done on samples sent from a Tanzanian goat and paw-paw fruit. Dr. Fauci's creation has a most impressive ability to cross species barriers - even that between the plant and animal kingdoms.

The video which has been banned from YouTube and other platforms of the Axis of Kindness is entitled Plandemic featuring Dr. Judy Mikowitz who exposes the Mockingbird Media's Holy Healer Fauci as quite the medicine man - especially in terms of selling the snake oil.

Blogger Grooveware May 09, 2020 10:12 PM  

Looking forward to the next big scam interesting days.

Blogger VFM #7634 May 09, 2020 10:59 PM  

Covid-19 has been portrayed as something akin to the black plague by the U.S. media. It seems to be more like a souped up flu.

More or less... regular flu has a 0.1% mortality rate, Spanish Flu was 2.5%, and this is now known to be exactly halfway in between the two magnitude-wise, about 0.5%.

Blogger Didas Kalos May 09, 2020 11:04 PM  

Has anyone seen data for the percentage of the deceased due to CoronaChan that had recently had the souped up flu shot, or pneumonia vaccine? Could there be a correlation?

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( according to the 13th Amendment, Slavery is neither Cruel nor Unusual: MSAGA ) May 09, 2020 11:36 PM  

52. Akulkis May 09, 2020 4:01 PM
The success of the smallpox vaccine disproves your opinion.



not to mention Polio, which is still in use.


64. Stephen May 09, 2020 7:16 PM
in the Village where Patrick McGewan


McGoohan, you heathen.

Patrick has defenestrated people for less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S7QARslq74




67. eclecticmn May 09, 2020 7:31 PM
...in tracking flue outbreaks.
...and FLUEView Interactive.
...each Tuesday they collect flue
...(Wild Ass Guess) the flue


chimneys are transmissible now?

that sounds like a serious problem.

Blogger Wm Jas Tychonievich May 10, 2020 2:09 AM  

A contact I trust in India tells me that birdemic deaths are being *vastly* overreported there in order to get more foreign aid.

Blogger James Lovebirch May 10, 2020 2:21 AM  

@61

I think you're taking the wrong approach to this. We do not need an alternative explanation for what causes disease before we can discern that the mainstream explanation is unproved, flawed or even totally wrong. To the first question, I would not dispute that scientists are looking at something in their microscopes, but I also leave open the possibility that they do not fully understand or correctly interpret what they're looking at.

When I talk about this I'm not making a positive claim, only expressing skepticism over others' claim that viruses cause disease. As far as I'm aware, the only evidence for this theory is correlations, which we know can't prove causation. All attempts I'm aware of to demonstrate the truth of the theory by isolating viruses and exposing healthy organisms to them have not only failed to prove the theory, they have demonstrated that healthy organisms are not susceptible to the supposedly contagious materials. Not only did they fail to prove the theory, a prima-facie reading of the results would cause a reasonable person to doubt the theory.

Kaufmann is one example of a guy discussing that scientific evidence, but the truth is there are at least a dozen people over the last century who have written books attempting to analyze the germ/virus theory of disease who came to the same conclusion. This goes all the way back to Antoine Bechamp, who was the leader on this question during the 19th century and who rejected the theory himself.

If the theory was true there should be at least one book out there documenting the common-sense, rigorous approach that was used to prove the theory, but I haven't found that yet.

Since you mentioned the spinning globe rabbit hole, I was watching this fascinating talk where Jonathan Pageau analyzes the last 500 years of science. The creation of the telescope and the microscope pushed western intellectuals to create imaginary, virtual models of things that are not accessible directly via human senses and experience. I think these mental models of inaccessible scales of reality have clearly been good enough for the development of many technologies. But I'm also wondering if we are wrong enough to lead us astray in a lot of ways we aren't aware of. You might find this as interesting as I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v92aB64jio4

Blogger nswhorse May 10, 2020 6:03 AM  

Why are these experts not listening to the experts?

Blogger mickthequick1976 May 10, 2020 9:54 AM  

https://youtu.be/1Z5VYqJqrtI

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 10, 2020 12:54 PM  

"If viruses don't cause disease, then what does, smart boy?"

I think I agree with your point, but you stepped onto bad ground here. Lots of things cause and contribute to disease and there are at least three entire categories I am aware of that need nothing to do with viruses, these being bacterial infections, congenital conditions, and malnutrition syndromes. There are certainly things other than viruses that cause disease.

"What are scientists reporting when they sequence the genomes of various viruses"

I am inclined that at least some viruses are real and primarily causative, however I can answer this. They could be potentially reporting uncommon symbiotes or organisms that propagate because the disease in question causes favorable conditions for that organism in the body, while they normally would not be able to survive.

"If viruses don't cause illness (and/or don't exist), what causes genital herpes and cold-sores?"

See above. Other causes of disease exist. I think these particulars are caused by viruses, but it is possible that they aren't. This being said, there's a lot of ground in between "this is the virus that caused X" and "viruses aren't real".

"it would not surprise me in the slightest if China has 6 figures of dead in which this disease is the primary cause."

Yeah... but that would be expected in China even if the disease had a measly 0.08% mortality rate in China, assuming everyone was exposed to it. 1.5 billion people makes six figures incredibly close to invisible. You need to assume that China both had six figures and that it had them WHILE succeeding it suppressing it to a relatively insignificant area for those figures to matter much, the two of which in conjunction sound unlikely.

"regular flu has a 0.1% mortality rate, Spanish Flu was 2.5%, and this is now known to be exactly halfway in between the two magnitude-wise, about 0.5%."

Halfway in an exponent of five, which is to say four times closer to regular flu.

"Has anyone seen data for the percentage of the deceased due to CoronaChan that had recently had the souped up flu shot, or pneumonia vaccine? Could there be a correlation?"

Didas asking the big questions. Good job my man.

"chimneys are transmissible now?

that sounds like a serious problem."


I hear that men in black with large... brushes... are involved in propagating this plague upon architectural decency.

Blogger Crew May 10, 2020 1:12 PM  

@77: If you are going to reject the germ theory of some diseases, you might as well reject the view that we are made up of a large collection of cells because you also cannot see individual cells in our bodies without a microscope.

Blogger Akulkis May 10, 2020 2:52 PM  

Anti-body testing is proving that most people who have contracted some sort of coronavirus, not necessarily this one, haven't even sought medical attention.

There, fixed it for you.

There is no test specific for THIS coronavirus yet.

Thus, we have no idea if there are many of asymptomatic cases, or zero asymptomatic cases.

Blogger Akulkis May 10, 2020 2:54 PM  

"BTW from the calls I'm making what I see in regards to the nursing homes is absolutely predictable for anyone here.

...Side note: STD numbers are climbing steadily."

That's because the percentage of residents who are Boomers is rising steadily.

Blogger Akulkis May 10, 2020 3:03 PM  

"
Best thing about this lock-down economic experiment:

We ain’t ever going through it again."

Next time they'll release a population of rats infected with Bubonic Plague (The Black Death), or accidentally release a sample of Smallpox virus.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 10, 2020 5:01 PM  

"If you are going to reject the germ theory of some diseases, you might as well reject the view that we are made up of a large collection of cells because you also cannot see individual cells in our bodies without a microscope."

So what? First, there are, probabilistically speaking, almost certainly several diseases around now that are mistakenly attributed to pathogens. Second, you can't see individual viruses under a normal microscope at all so far as I am aware.

Blogger Boaty Bear May 10, 2020 7:27 PM  

It was probably when they moved COVID carriers INTO cate homes!

Blogger Crew May 10, 2020 7:32 PM  

And now Birx is alleged to have claimed the CDC is inflating their numbers by 25%:

https://www.salon.com/2020/05/09/deborah-birx-reportedly-tells-task-force-she-can-trust-nothing-from-the-cdc_partner/

Blogger spacehabitats May 10, 2020 7:37 PM  

Although declaring a "cause of death" might seem to be a rather straight forward task, it actually is not. If someone with terminal cancer dies of a blood clot to the lungs, did they die of the cancer or with the cancer? What about when you consider that cancer makes a person hypercoaguable and probably caused the blood clot?
This is especially relevant to COVID-19 which also makes a patient hypercoaguable, causing premature heart attacks and strokes.

Blogger Boaty Bear May 10, 2020 7:52 PM  

Is that the smallpox vaccine that's responsible for the resurgence of Smallpox? (vaccine strain tm)

Blogger Boaty Bear May 10, 2020 7:53 PM  

Lack of ease?

Blogger Boaty Bear May 10, 2020 8:06 PM  

Was thinking of Polio, but we probably just have to wait a little longer for the Smallpox vaccine strain of Smallpox.

Blogger Crew May 10, 2020 9:17 PM  

Second, you can't see individual viruses under a normal microscope at all so far as I am aware.

So what. You can't see radio waves with your eye? Do you reject them as well?

Blogger buwaya May 10, 2020 9:32 PM  

There are actually diseases that have been very recently found to be caused by pathogens, such as peptic ulcers, making treatment more effective. As I can attest, my last bout with it was cured with antibiotics.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 10, 2020 11:58 PM  

"So what. You can't see radio waves with your eye? Do you reject them as well?"

I don't reject viruses, full stop.

That you have to binarily strawman me as rejecting all viruses indicates that you are infirm in your own position. To be clear, I am of the opinion that viruses are real things, but statistically and probabilistically speaking, at least some of the things people think are caused by viruses almost certainly are not.

You also missed my point. You can see human cells with a normal microscope, yet not viruses. This is an example of the limitations of knowledge within your own chosen framework.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( according to the 13th Amendment, Slavery is neither Cruel nor Unusual: MSAGA ) May 11, 2020 12:01 AM  

85. Azure Amaranthine May 10, 2020 5:01 PM
Second, you can't see individual viruses under a normal microscope at all so far as I am aware.



wut?

now you're going to deny the existence of anything you can't see with a glorified magnifying glass?

Blogger Yossarian May 11, 2020 6:47 AM  

Are viruses real? Yes. What they can or can't do is another question.

The Covid-19 is almost certainly a hoax because it goes against everything we've learned so far in medicine. Ironically those who deny its existence are the ones who fall in line with modern medicine literature. The correlation between having the virus and having the disease is statistically irrelevant. There are cases of healthy young people on life support with Covid-19 and cases of people who are asymptomatic or cured and who have a life expectancy of less than a decade given all their other illnesses.

The measure of wearing a surgical mask to stop its spread is retarded. Like beyond retarded. Viruses can live up to hours on certain surfaces including medical masks. Human skin and the respiratory airwaves have their own means of dealing with pathogens. Given the case where a sick person sneezes in your face the chances of you getting the disease while wearing a mask are far greater. No mask = 1 contamination exposure. Wearing a mask => mask gets contaminated = you get a constant exposure to the virus for the whole duration of wear. Surgical masks were created to protect the patient and not the doctor.

The virus affects the airways so an indication is intubation. This carries its own risks one of which is predisposing the patient to pneumonia and nosocomial pneumonia carries a very high mortality rate. All Covid patients who are ill get intubated and all intubated patients get dead. Suddenly the concept of a control group is a foreign concept in medicine.

Blogger rumpole5 May 11, 2020 7:04 AM  

I hate to be cruel, but has anyone calculated the long term effect on our medicare, medicaid, and social security outlays? The quick removal of so many elderly with expensive to manage co-mobidity issues has got to save quite a bit of money over the long run. I managed the care for my mother, who suffered from Alzheimer's. It was probably more expensive for her because I kept her in her home, with 24/7 aides, but that cost around $70,000.00+ a year.
This is probably the real reason for New York's decision to seed its nursing homes with the China virus.

Blogger TruthsGotMyBack May 11, 2020 10:35 AM  

There never was a novel virus, only a novel test. The global scamdemic works better for the globalists if there is no virus to contend with. A physical virus can be thwarted, whereas a fear-virus can be transferred, maintained, restoked.

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