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Monday, August 03, 2020

Patreon makes a statement

A concerned YouTuber emailed Patreon and was so encouraged by the response that she recorded a video entitled Patreon Is Not Going Away:
We’ve heard there are some concerns about the recent decision in the lawsuit we filed and wanted to clarify some things. First of all, there’s nothing to worry about overall. Litigation is an unfortunate fact of doing business and Patreon deals with a lot of it, the same as any other platform. Specifically in this situation, we filed a lawsuit to bring some frivolous arbitrations into court because these claims should be decided in court under our terms of use. Unfortunately the judge denied our preliminary injunction against those claims preceding in arbitrations so we’ll now deal with these in arbitrations while we proceed with the next stage of the lawsuit. It seems that some of the people who are involved in organizing these arbitrations are reporting that we are going bankrupt as a result of these claims. I can assure you, that this is not true and it appears that they are making those claims to try to keep up morale on their side and convince more people to bring claims against Patreon.
- Patreon PR
Allow me to observe that even the CEO of Patreon knows its business model is not sustainable. Back in January 2019, he observed that they would need to add revenue streams and reduce the percentage of payouts to creators to make it sustainable, but they obviously have not done so.

Far from being frivolous, at least 72 of the arbitrations are now certain winners thanks to Patreon's inexplicable decision to violate its own Terms of Use and bring the very sort of group action in court that it waived its right to bring. The next stage of the lawsuit is going to be the 72 Bears bringing a demurrer which is very likely to be approved; even if the case is not immediately dismissed with prejudice, Patreon has no chance of winning a lawsuit that it has absolutely no right to have brought in the first place under its own contract.

It's true that Patreon is very unlikely to go bankrupt right away as a result of the current claims. They received 60 million in investment last July, so even if they have been losing the estimated $1.5 million per month thanks to their expensive offices and 200+ employees since then, it should be sufficient to allow them to limp along for another two years or so. However, that presumes that the investors are going to sit by idly as the executives blow all their investment money on lawyers, arbitration fees, and awards, which strikes me as unlikely. Sooner or later, and the longer this dispute goes on, the sooner it will be, the investors are going to pull the remainder of their money out and put it in gold or the stock market, at which point it's game over and all the creators move to whatever the next model happens to be.

And finally, what need do we have to keep up morale? Patreon is winless in JAMS administration, 0-for-4 in Owen's arbitration, 0-for-2 in court, and counting. This statement strikes me as pure projection, especially given that it was made in an attempt to reassure a worried Patreon creator. We have absolutely no need to convince more people to bring claims against Patreon. We haven't even made an arbitration template available to the hundreds of thousands of potentially interested parties; Patreon very foolishly did that when they included the full text of a demand for arbitration in their lawsuit filings.

(I genuinely could not believe that when I saw it. I've seen lawyers do some stupid and crazy things over the years, but that almost certainly takes the cake.)

Anyhow, the most important thing about this statement is the fact that Patreon felt the need to make it in the first place. Also, it's not meth. Definitely not meth.

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68 Comments:

Blogger turk187 August 03, 2020 5:09 PM  

It seems to me Patreon could be run by a dozen coders in a small office in the suburbs somewhere and make a good amount of money.

What the hell are 200+ employees doing for them?

And, "reduce the percentage of payouts to creators" ?? You mean the creators who are the reason the company exists? Shouldn't that be "Charge the creators more for the service?"

Blogger Dole August 03, 2020 5:16 PM  

"we filed a lawsuit to bring some frivolous arbitrations into court because these claims should be decided in court under our terms of use."

Is it possible to sue the liars again for deceptive practices? Did the judge not make it clear enough where the matter should be decided - according to their own TOS? Lies, lies lies!

Burn it down. I am at loss of words if it is still unclear to anyone from whom they are taking the orders from.

Blogger bramley bramley bramley August 03, 2020 5:45 PM  

'Frivolous arbitrations' that they forced people to make because contrary to their statement under the TOS you cannot take them to court. The lies never end. And they think they are winning by losing. How typical.

Blogger Critias August 03, 2020 5:46 PM  

Don't forget they have presumably inflated the numbers of creators/consumers etc. As bad as things look on the surface for them - it'll be much worse on the inside.

"We’ve heard there are some concerns ..." He nervously says from the open window of his burning building.

Blogger Section 8A August 03, 2020 5:48 PM  

Looks like chapter 1 of the 3rd book in the SJW series just wrote itself.

Blogger Gregory the Tall August 03, 2020 5:49 PM  

What if their insurers do not prolong their contracts with Patreon? Someone should certainly inform them of the abysmal risks they are facing.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 August 03, 2020 5:54 PM  

Wow.

I wish I was capable of lying that much.

Blogger Lance E August 03, 2020 5:58 PM  

They are still trying to make it sound like whatever ToS they invent on the spot apply retroactively. Do they think that if they just keep repeating that, it will eventually become true?

Blogger Jason the Gentleman August 03, 2020 6:06 PM  

"We haven't even made an arbitration template available to the hundreds of thousands of potentially interested parties; Patreon very foolishly did that when they included the full text of a demand for arbitration in their lawsuit filings."
Can someone direct me to this? I know at least one or two who would like to at least be aware of this if not make use of it to put the screws to Patreon as well. I joined 'the noticing' a while back, so I don't think there is anything more I can do yet, but I'd love to help more people get involved in teaching Silicon Valley a lesson

Blogger Canadian Warlord August 03, 2020 6:08 PM  

@1. turk187

>>>"It seems to me Patreon could be run by a dozen coders in a small office in the suburbs somewhere and make a good amount of money.

What the hell are 200+ employees doing for them?"
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Policing content. That's why these platforms exist, so that people smarter than us can show us the way.

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"And, "reduce the percentage of payouts to creators" ?? You mean the creators who are the reason the company exists? Shouldn't that be "Charge the creators more for the service?" "
--------------------------------------------------------

They think they've got us cornered - they really do. They can't create so they'll get ahead and corral everyone's ideas. This is "Hollyweird" on fast-forward. Fewer unions for animal trainers and set painters, but the same principle. Control the field of play and control which voices get to the public.

Anonymous Anonymous August 03, 2020 6:09 PM  

Poor Fran seems like a nice lady. Not nearly skeptical enough though.

One wonders what her reaction to Patreon's sudden collapse is going to be.

Blogger ZhukovG August 03, 2020 6:09 PM  

Was it the movie, Eric the Viking, where some island is sinking and the people are saying, "This is not happening", even as water rises?

Blogger eclecticme August 03, 2020 6:09 PM  

All they had to do to avoid this litigation/arbitration mess was be content neutral. All they had to do was do nothing. How hard is that?

I am amazed at the business stupidity.

Blogger Karen took the Kids August 03, 2020 6:13 PM  

SJWs always project.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 03, 2020 6:13 PM  

turk187 wrote:What the hell are 200+ employees doing for them?
Remember: The purpose of any and all activities, policies, actions and statements by Patreon executives is to line up the next round of investors.
In the Venture Capital world, there is an expected growth curve that makes a company a good investment prospect. Profitability is almost completely disregarded, but hiring the right number of employees at the right time is critically important, whether those employees serve any purpose or not. If Patreon were a company of 20 employees operating out of a strip mall in San Jose, it would be a "bad investment" even if they were turning in 200% profits, because the purpose of Venture Capital is to get the giant payday at an IPO or buyout, not long-term sustainable profits or organic growth.

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira August 03, 2020 6:17 PM  

They are squirming.

Blogger Dole August 03, 2020 6:24 PM  

@12

Or maybe this movie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuSdU8tbcHY

Blogger The Greay Man August 03, 2020 6:34 PM  

But Vox, the gamma armchair lawyers said you're misleading the public and that you're the REAL gamma armchair lawyer!

How will you win against such accusations?!

I love reading their whiny nonsense and driven. They never stop believing they're right.

Blogger Barbarossa August 03, 2020 6:38 PM  

"There are no accounting issues, no trading issues, no reserve issues, no previously unknown problem issues. I think I can honestly say that the company is probably in the strongest and best shape that it has probably ever been in."
--statement made by Kenneth Lay, CEO Enron on 8/14/01 (Enron declared bankruptcy four months later on 12/1/01)

Corporate declarations like these are worthless. What is Patreon supposed to say? "Yeah. Thanks to non-existent risk management practices, dodgy legal advice and the fact that we confused working for Big Tech with being granted demigod status, we let a cancelled $2K account turn into a potential multi-million dollar legal bill that has called into question both our integrity and competence. However, since we haven't learned a damned thing from the experience, please continue using our service and investing in us."

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 03, 2020 6:38 PM  

"We're not sinking, we're just stopping to take on a little water."

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 03, 2020 6:47 PM  

Don't forget they have presumably inflated the numbers of creators/consumers etc.

Everything these companies "produce" is fake, right down to the non-GAAP accounting they use to sucker in the "smartest people in the room". It's the same sort of three-card monte that Hollywood has been operating for decades now. It's like what cynics say about the finances of Italian football teams, there are three figures: one for the press and shareholders ("We're so rich!"), one for the taxman ("We're so broke!"), and the true number somewhere in between ("Well, at least I can still get my mistress a new fur coat!").

Blogger Balam August 03, 2020 7:04 PM  

The concept of inversion, where the enemy tries to asert the opposite of truth on as many levels as they can manage, shows again. A company that is truly sticking around wouldn't need to declare that they're not going anywhere. That statement usually means ''we have stuck our head under the ground and refuse to listen to reality''. I take it to mean that Patreon has refused to change their ways, actively fights against changing, and will more certainly go away than if they were just stupid. Bravo Bears, Owen has a lot of balls to maintain an emotionless course of action is the face of so many emoting haters.

Blogger Cetera August 03, 2020 7:30 PM  

Jason the Gentleman wrote:"We haven't even made an arbitration template available to the hundreds of thousands of potentially interested parties; Patreon very foolishly did that when they included the full text of a demand for arbitration in their lawsuit filings."

Can someone direct me to this? I know at least one or two who would like to at least be aware of this if not make use of it to put the screws to Patreon as well. I joined 'the noticing' a while back, so I don't think there is anything more I can do yet, but I'd love to help more people get involved in teaching Silicon Valley a lesson



All court documents are available here:
https://webapps.sftc.org/ci/CaseInfo.dll?CaseNum=CGC20584586

I believe you are looking for the one from 6/2, "NOTICE OF MOTION AND APPLICATION FOR ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE RE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION, POINTS AND AUTHORITIES, DECLARATION FILED BY PLAINTIFF PATREON, INC. HEARING SET FOR JUN-30-2020 AT 09:30 AM IN DEPT 302."

Blogger A trite re-white August 03, 2020 7:43 PM  

This case is a classic example of how Vox was right about everything. ...My God don't these people have any shame?

Blogger Crew August 03, 2020 7:47 PM  

Maybe they are on fentanyl!

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 03, 2020 8:08 PM  

I worked for an Internet startup where about 3 people did the actual work, 7 people got paid, and the owner told people we had about 20 employees. I don't think those ratios get any better as the companies get bigger.

Blogger SirHamster August 03, 2020 8:19 PM  

Jason the Gentleman wrote:Can someone direct me to this? I know at least one or two who would like to at least be aware of this if not make use of it to put the screws to Patreon as well.

SF Superior Court case file, look for the first filing on June 2, Exhibit C. Photocopied, so can't be copy and pasted, but there's always OCR.

Blogger bramley bramley bramley August 03, 2020 8:33 PM  

@11 "Poor Fran seems like a nice lady."

That's a man, baby!

Blogger Troy Lee Messer August 03, 2020 9:08 PM  

My eyes. the physiognomy.
can we get a pool started how many cats this chick has in residence?

5 permanent. 3 in-n-out or

Blogger Attila is my bro August 03, 2020 9:29 PM  

>>...it appears that they are making those claims to try to keep up morale on their side...<<

Whatever. It's working!

Blogger Shane Bradman August 03, 2020 9:31 PM  

It's never the first heart attack that kills you, but the follow up.

Blogger Canada78Bear August 03, 2020 9:35 PM  

Patreon is playing the confidence game. They know the 72 won't sink them and it is the ?# sharpening their pencils that will come after. (Like Lewis and Clark)
The perception they are trying to weave is they are still the land of milk and honey.

The SJWs they tout and push oddly don't have the revenue streams to survive on, not that they want others to know.

Blogger Avalanche August 03, 2020 9:37 PM  

@8 "Do they think that if they just keep repeating that, it will eventually become true?"

They're liberals: OF COURSE they believe that!! Not "think" it, feel it and believe it!

Blogger Glaivester August 03, 2020 9:38 PM  

I remember a year or so back when Patreon was changing its structure (I'm not on Patreon, I just was listening to people who were at the time). That they had to change their fee structure did not bother me, but the dishonesty with which they explained what they were doing and the level to which it seemed they misunderstood what their telos was amazed me.

First of all, they claimed "more of your pledge will now go to the creators you patronize." What they meant was "we are now charging your fee on top of your pledge rather than including it as part of your pledge." So instead of pledging $20 and the creator getting $18, you pledge $20 and the creator gets $19 but you actually pay $21.50.

Secondly, putting the transaction fee for each transaction through PayPal instead of doing one transaction from PayPal each month for the entire balance takes away one of the reasons people used Patreon, which was to be able to do large numbers of microtransactions (e.g. fund 20 artists for, say, about $2 a month each).

Honestly, I've never understood exactly what the benefit of using Patreon instead of some other payment processor is, particularly if you are using both Patreon and the processor to pay Patreon (other than being able to do microtransactions).

Blogger Seeingsights August 03, 2020 10:38 PM  

Patreon's reputation took a hit, and that also hits Patreon's income.

There are current users of Patreon who are saying they will ditch it.

Future content creators will likely avoid Patreon, and go with one of their competitors.

Blogger DonJuanBear August 03, 2020 10:57 PM  

Hey, dude. Just lettin' you know I got this fucker parked for 10 years.

verbrannt.com

Us Minnesota boys roll.

https://youtu.be/UePtoxDhJSw

Blogger Dole August 03, 2020 11:03 PM  

Patreon to judge: "The arbitration will cause us irrecoverable harm."

Patreon to customers: "The arbitration is no big deal, business as usual."

Blogger Shimshon August 03, 2020 11:44 PM  

Is this Kevin Bacon's moment in Animal House as he is overrun by a panicked crowd he is urging not to panic?

Blogger Shimshon August 04, 2020 12:01 AM  

@34 Glaivester, Vox described the Replatforming on Patreon as a Book of the Month club, for which you give up a 10% cut, including merchant fees. A great bargain for the book publisher. It is, I think by far, the cheapest publishing platform around, if you take advantage of its features.

What will happen to the Replatforming if the platform is no longer?

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 04, 2020 12:30 AM  

@19 - Exactly like the dreaded "vote of confidence": once you hear it, better start packin'.

Blogger Troushers August 04, 2020 12:46 AM  

Well, they decided to police Sargon for saying the n word in a stream from a year back. That must take a fair amount of staff and time - watching / listening through the countless hours of media that each of their creators has ever produced, looking for violations.

Blogger IAMSpartacus0000 August 04, 2020 2:29 AM  

Somewhat related: unwoke.hr

Selling point is anti-wokeness.
Wonder if they read your book?

Blogger SpellsOfTruth August 04, 2020 3:20 AM  

Who said anything about meth?

Blogger Brian of London August 04, 2020 3:28 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Shimshon August 04, 2020 4:56 AM  

"(I genuinely could not believe that when I saw it. I've seen lawyers do some stupid and crazy things over the years, but that almost certainly takes the cake.)"

You know it's serious when Vox goes parenthetical. Two sentences worth.

Blogger SciVo August 04, 2020 4:56 AM  

Of course not meth! Someone should've warned them against the apple cider. It's a notoriously performance-diminishing drug. So sad.

Blogger MNW August 04, 2020 6:48 AM  

Jack is a true believer. I dont think he can.

Blogger Doktor Jeep August 04, 2020 7:13 AM  

That statement from Patreon strikes me as a little gamma. The wording and such.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 04, 2020 7:25 AM  

I've never understood exactly what the benefit of using Patreon instead of some other payment processor is,

Basically convenience. Once you have an account, it's easier to donate to the next thing you decide to support, and you get charged once a month for the total. If each creator has his own Paypal (or whatever) button, you have to go through each one separately, and you'll get a charge for each one.

It also gives creators a built-in place to distribute subscriber-only content, and on multiple tiers. If you wanted to do that yourself, you'd have to set up a subscription website tied to Paypal or something. That's easier to do today than it used to be, and I'm sure there are sites that automate much of it, but again, at Patreon it's just there for you.

It was really a pretty useful service. It's just a shame it's run by idiot SJWs.

Blogger szook August 04, 2020 8:33 AM  

In the case of Patreon it would have been better for them to have just contracted out out to be Islamo-terrorists....at least those guys are promised 72 you know whats as opposed to bears. yeesh.

Blogger Gettimothy August 04, 2020 9:22 AM  

"Patreon is pining for the fjords" coming to a press release soon!

Blogger Jason the Gentleman August 04, 2020 9:51 AM  

Thank you @23 and @27, appreciate the direction!

Blogger Die Fledermaus August 04, 2020 10:26 AM  

Wouldn't it be advisable for the bears' lawyer to simply save this video and subpoena this woman in the upcoming proceedings? She basically says Patreon lied to the court about the irreparable harm issue. If she's on the stand, one of two things will happen - Either she repeats what she said, and will likely have to reveal her contact in Patreon, or - and that would be even more hilarious - Patreon would coach her to perjure herself, in which case the video shall be further proof for the unclean hands argument.

Blogger Tars Tarkas August 04, 2020 10:35 AM  

Fran's channel is gamma white-knight city. Nerds are some of the most converged hobbydom around. Her channel is total cancer. They just absolutely love the fact that there's a woman doing something they like.

Blogger Azimus August 04, 2020 11:21 AM  

VD this is way more entertaining than the Rabid Puppies, BTW (which was also entertaining).

I AM entertained, this IS why I am here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-l6tHeseDY

Blogger Akulkis August 04, 2020 11:48 AM  

>> That statement from Patreon strikes me as a little gamma. The wording and such.

Well, of course it does. It's chock full of evasion and misrepresentation.

Blogger tublecane August 04, 2020 12:16 PM  

"keep up morale on their side"

The winning side is the one that has to try hard to keep up morale. Also, we may have sprung a leak, but there is still more water outside the boat.

Blogger Krymneth August 04, 2020 1:44 PM  

Die Fledermaus wrote:She basically says Patreon lied to the court about the irreparable harm issue.

They didn't lie. They gave the best argument they could. It was a bad argument, because "monetary damages" are basically the canonical example of non-irreparable harm, but on its own terms there was nothing wrong or immoral about that particular claim. (The error or immoral act occurred when they filed a lawsuit standing on a pillar that they should have known was too weak to support it.) Most lawsuits are less open and shut than this Patreon case (generally, only contentious cases go to court; things this lopsided would normally be settled), so most lawsuits are going to have some weakness somewhere. It's not lying to give the best argument you have, even if "the best" is quite weak.

Blogger John Bradley August 04, 2020 3:37 PM  

Fran's channel is gamma white-knight city. Nerds are some of the most converged hobbydom around. Her channel is total cancer. They just absolutely love the fact that there's a woman doing something they like.

Don't know or care about her fans. Youtube comments have been garbage since day 1, and if she has fans elsewhere (a Reddit thing?), no need to ever come in contact with them. She does interesting work tearing apart and documenting cool old hardware, which is good enough for me, especially considering the nothing it costs.

Also, she's a dude, or as she'd say "a professional transperson", but at least she does a reasonable job of passing, unlike PA's official Health Tranny.

I'm not certain that there's that many (straight) gamma men that are willing to white-knight for an MtoF transexual.

Blogger Pathfinderlight August 04, 2020 5:16 PM  

Patreon acted on a tip from an SJW. Ever since gamergate, they've been gunning for his income. Kind of like how Vox and Owen B. have the occasional ankle biter to deal with.

That's part of what got Patreon in trouble. Leftists report misbehavior = hate speech, while leftists' own misbehavior = not our problem.

Blogger Gregory the Tall August 04, 2020 5:30 PM  

@58 and @53 I still think Die Fledermaus has a point and this might be useful if Patreon files an appeal.

Blogger RadixMalorum August 04, 2020 8:04 PM  

Remember folks, it's DEFINITELY NOT Meth...

Blogger Tars Tarkas August 04, 2020 9:17 PM  

John Bradley wrote:Also, she's a dude, or as she'd say "a professional transperson", but at least she does a reasonable job of passing, unlike PA's official Health Tranny.

OH. WOW. Did not know that. Yes, she passes well.

After I went and watched the video I remembered one of the reasons I don't like her (it). Once it stops reading the Patreon response, everything that next comes out of its mouth is pure guessing. It amounts to "patreon is not going bankrupt because it's a corporation and corporations don't get sued out of business because they foresee all of the litigation and have enough insurance"

Blogger Akulkis August 06, 2020 4:12 AM  

>> They didn't lie. They gave the best argument they could. It was a bad argument, because "monetary damages" are basically the canonical example of non-irreparable harm, but on its own terms there was nothing wrong or immoral about that particular claim.

TL;DR: They lied.

A good argument is based on truth.

An argument based on lies is a bad argument, no matter how internally consistent it may be.

Blogger Akulkis August 06, 2020 12:44 PM  

>> OH. WOW. Did not know that. Yes, she passes well.

Dude, the nose is obviously male.

The other big red flag -- wrapped throat.

Blogger Valar Addemmis August 06, 2020 3:21 PM  

>> Dude, the nose is obviously male.

>> The other big red flag -- wrapped throat

Once you know what to look for, it becomes basically impossible not to notice that something like half of the really loud/prolific finger pointers on SJW twitter are "trans women". You can tell even just with tiny avatar images, generally. I imagine that's a large part of why they get so angry about misgendering. They know it's obvious to most casual observers. So they can't be at peace until people are frightened into pretending otherwise.

Blogger Die Fledermaus August 08, 2020 3:40 AM  

That video is now unlisted - which probably mean whoever needs it for..whichever legal purposes..better save a copy before it's gone altogether.

Blogger Cherie D August 08, 2020 8:28 PM  

Fentanyl, meth and they have the rona?

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