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Wednesday, August 05, 2020

Qanon is winning the Narrative battle

The media is beginning to worry that it is losing control of the Narrative
Why it matters: QAnon is not just one fringe conspiracy theory — it's a sprawling network of falsehoods that's seeping into the mainstream. Its growing influence is sowing fear and confusion around some of today's most important issues, such as election integrity and the coronavirus pandemic.

Catch up quick: QAnon is a far-right conspiracy theory that alleges the "deep state" is engaged in a global fight to take down President Trump.

QAnon rose out of the 2016 Pizzagate conspiracy theory and has grown into a decentralized network that analyzes cryptic prophecies dropped in remote online forums by "Q," who claims, without ever offering evidence, to be a Trump administration official with high-level clearance.

Q maintains President Trump is secretly fighting a child-selling cabal in the U.S., though the conspiracy has spiraled to cover a vast array of claims, from JFK Jr. having faked his death to help Trump behind the scenes to the coronavirus being a hoax or a biological weapon engineered in either case by sinister elites.

By the numbers: Conspiracy theories tied to QAnon are growing more popular.

There was more than 10 times as much Google search interest in QAnon in mid-July than in mid-January, according to Google Trends data.

QAnon pages and groups on Facebook had nearly 10 times more likes at the end of last month than they did last July, according to data tracked by the Atlantic Council and shared with Axios.

There has been a 190% increase in the daily average number of tweets with popular QAnon hashtags since March as compared to the seven months prior, according to data from GroupSense provided to Axios.
Of course, the readily confirmable fact is that the Qanon narrative has proven to be vastly more reliable, and a better predictive model, than the mainstream media narrative. Which means that it would be better described as a sprawling network of uncomfortable truths that is seeping into the public consciousness.

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63 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous August 05, 2020 8:14 AM  

QAnon is not just one fringe conspiracy theory — it's a sprawling network of falsehoods that's seeping into the mainstream. Its growing influence is sowing fear and confusion around some of today's most important issues, such as election integrity and the coronavirus pandemic.

Pretty accurate self-portrait of the MainSlimeMedia.

It doesn't really bother me that a bunch of professional dissemblers invents these narratives about how dishonest other people are, because, well, they're liars - it's what they do.

What irritates the hell out of me is the otherwise quite intelligent people who believe everything the liars tell them.

Blogger Stilicho August 05, 2020 8:15 AM  

>> a sprawling network of uncomfortable truths that is seeping into the public consciousness.<<

Indeed. What the prometheans re desperate to destroy, hide, or deny are fairly accurate indicators of the good, the beautiful, and the true.

Blogger Enjcj August 05, 2020 8:27 AM  

Wow is QAnon meant to be a replacement media? The "drops" always say that (we the people) are the news now.

Blogger xevious2030 August 05, 2020 8:28 AM  

"conspiracy theory that alleges the "deep state" is engaged in a global fight to take down President Trump."

Definitely not meth.

Blogger Unknown August 05, 2020 8:40 AM  

Even if Q is completely b.s. the existence of someone(s) perpetuating b.s. in this manner still doesn't fit the normie framework and so any news about Q (for or against) has the potential to be paradigm shifting for them.

Blogger MDeBonville August 05, 2020 8:41 AM  

Every single article I have read about QAnon contains bald faced lies. This increases the legitimacy because if Q was so ridiculous then why the need to misrepresent facts to make it seem weirder? Q never suggested, to my knowledge that JFK Jr. faked his own death. Just one example.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 05, 2020 8:41 AM  

There ought to be one of those "five steps of grief" things for how the media treats stories it doesn't like.

First they ignore it.
Then they ridicule it.
Then they write serious stories about how totally false and dangerous it is.
Then...?

Interesting that Q interest on Facebook has multiplied 10 times on Facebook and only doubled on Twitter. Shows what an echo chamber of leftist Jews Twitter has become. And considering Facebook's current level of censorship, you know general interest on the Internet has to have multiplied more than 10 times.

Blogger Billy August 05, 2020 8:55 AM  

You’d think they would learn to quit pointing at things and screeching to try to discredit them.

Completely backfired when they did it to Orangeman.

Now the debate definitely isn’t going to be cancelled because the old man they have the most blackmail on has brain parasites from eating Haitian kids and Qanon definitely isn’t meth.

Blogger Azimus August 05, 2020 9:17 AM  

QAnon is a far-right conspiracy theory that alleges the "deep state" is engaged in a global fight to take down President Trump.

This strikes me as totally disingenuous. Trump is the incidental target, not the primary objective. The objective is the radical re-ordering of life in west to a socialist ideal - everybody is poor, everybody is alone, everybody is watched. That Trump happens to be the imperfect champion of those who oppose this vision is being used to smear the truth of it - we are the cattle to their rancher, and every action they take shows this truth. Whether Q is real or not doesn't matter except that it awakens people to this readily observable reality - you don't have to read many publicly available Davos or CFR speeches to know the truth. Q, and Trump, are just the rally points.

Blogger JamesB.BKK August 05, 2020 9:17 AM  

It's funny because every time I read something Q (I'm probably 1/6th Q-tarded), the sowing is not of FUD. It's hope in part and relief in part. Thanks "Q." It's nice to see the narrative jobbers getting nervous.

Blogger Kraemer August 05, 2020 9:31 AM  

Would a "narrative battle" be a kind of 4GW, considering how it affects the legitimacy of the ruling class?

Blogger ZhukovG August 05, 2020 9:48 AM  

Anything, that causes 'Globalists' to lose sleep, is a good thing in my book.

Ad Victoriam, Deo Vindice, Ave Caesar Trump!

Blogger szook August 05, 2020 9:53 AM  

"The readily confirmable fact is that the Qanon narrative has proven to be vastly more reliable, and a better predictive model,..." To be fair, so are chicken entrails.....but all the same if Q is reading this, go get'em tiger. Your efforts are appreciated.

Blogger tuberman August 05, 2020 9:59 AM  

"...it's a sprawling network of falsehoods that's seeping into the mainstream."

SJWs Always Project.

Blogger Ken Prescott August 05, 2020 10:05 AM  

Qanon isn't so much about giving out the right answers so much as persuading people to ask the right questions.

Blogger carnaby August 05, 2020 10:12 AM  

Maybe a Qanon vs Antifa street battle is forthcoming. Could make for a good comic segment, if it's not already done or in the works. Blinding lasers vs ???

Blogger Darren August 05, 2020 10:17 AM  

"a better predictive model" <<< the real reason they hate the Great Awakening.

Because it gives their former blins followers knowledge and power and skills to bw independent, no longer relying on them for troof, and even worse actually able to debunk THEM and prove them wrong time and again -- to the fence sitters and normies observing.

Mobsters don't like their victims being armed.

Blogger Silly but True August 05, 2020 10:19 AM  

The phrase "Without ever offering" is doing the heavy lifting for this piece. This phrase is the Hafthor Bjornsson of this piece.

Blogger Shane Bradman August 05, 2020 10:33 AM  

I will once again state that Pizzagate was not merely a conspiracy THEORY, it was a genuine, real, conspiracy. The conspirators were exactly who we said they were, and they were all doing exactly what we said they were doing. It is a shame that Pedosta is still a free man, but in time, he too will not kill himself.

Blogger Stilicho August 05, 2020 10:34 AM  

@Kraemer it's the moral (highest) level of war in a 4/1 paradigm

Blogger Stilicho August 05, 2020 10:35 AM  

4GW

Blogger d August 05, 2020 10:42 AM  

Clearly, the muzzles aren't working.
Next up: mandatory ear plugs.
What sayeth the Q?

Blogger Section 8A August 05, 2020 11:00 AM  

"I love watching them squirm." - A young Bobby Fischer talking about defeating scores of older opponents.

That's how I feel watching the MSM right now.

Blogger Barbarossa August 05, 2020 11:08 AM  

@7 Then...?

Then they offer Qanon an expense account and a weekly column in the Times or the Post.

Isn't it the Supreme Court model? Condemn the nominee as the Most Dangerous Man in the History of Danger. Condemn the judge for his Most Dangerous Decision in the History of Dangerous Decisions. Invite him to dinner parties with copious booze and copious (fill in blank). Praise him as he "matures" into the office.

Blogger thalios August 05, 2020 11:09 AM  

Scuzzaman wrote:What irritates the hell out of me is the otherwise quite intelligent people who believe everything the liars tell them.

Same here Scuzzaman. I can have very difficult technical conversations with people that requires they work through data on the fly in their heads in order to come to logical conclusions, but then they refuse (literally refuse as in "I will not do that") to do the same thing with what the Man on TV™ is telling them. It's infuriating!

Blogger Avalanche August 05, 2020 11:20 AM  

@16 "Maybe a Qanon vs Antifa street battle is forthcoming. Could make for a good comic segment, if it's not already done or in the works. Blinding lasers vs ???"

A10 Warthogs? Brrrrrrrttttt!

Blogger Weak August 05, 2020 11:26 AM  

If Q and Trump have done nothing else, they have shown that it's all lies. At this point, the "otherwise intelligent people" whom I'm in contact with get that it's all lies. They struggle with the question of why they choose to consume lies. But they now admit that they know it's lies.

Blogger rumpole5 August 05, 2020 11:41 AM  

Amen, and amen!

Blogger Fozzy Bear August 05, 2020 11:47 AM  

“The objective is the radical re-ordering of life in west to a socialist ideal - everybody is poor, everybody is alone, everybody is watched.”

The purpose of all revolution is theological: revolutionaries want to institute the millennium, today, by any means necessary. Ultimately it is God they desire to "attack and dethrone", they wish to punish him for allowing the fall.

Blogger J Melcher August 05, 2020 12:42 PM  

I grew up in an alternate universe where Ted Sturgeon wrote a short story entitled "The Saucers of Summer". At some point I inadvertently slipped into THIS universe where the same story was authored by Fritz Leiber under the title "Our Saucer Vacation". Well, either I've changed universes, or some sort of Big Brother-ish censor/editor is going back and changing the literature for political -- inscrutable -- reasons. Or my memory fails, maybe...

But the alien squids of the flying saucers can't prevent stories of their visit to Earth from circulating. So, they pollute the data by adding even more ridiculous claims and practices. Not just that aliens exist, fly saucer-shaped craft, and observe Earthling. The squid arrange to have human witnesses tell that aliens built the pyramids, sank Atlantis, kidnapped Ambrose Bierce, and -- whatever. Invented cancer, I suppose. The goal was that when reasonable but ignorant people heard the stories, the facts of the saucer sightings would get rejected along with the lies about pyramids.

It's one of those SF stories that shaped the way you think. How much of the valid part of any story is polluted by deliberate addition of invalid parts?

Blogger Unknown August 05, 2020 1:51 PM  

>>"How much of the valid part of any story is polluted by deliberate addition of invalid parts?"

That's the #1 tactic of glowies.

#2 is running fly trap websites.

Blogger "William Berke" August 05, 2020 2:17 PM  

Save money on coffee, just eat bean(s).

Blogger Akulkis August 05, 2020 2:20 PM  

>> "Q," who claims, without ever offering evidence, to be a Trump administration official with high-level clearance.


As if unpublished photos of the Oval Office, Donald Trumps signature on a document laying on the desk IN the Oval Office, and similarly, Donald Trump associated artifacts from within Air Force 1 are all part of "without ever offering evidence"

Blogger Servant August 05, 2020 2:30 PM  

Intelligent people who are capable of logical or intuitive leaps who seemingly believe the mainstream narrative shouldn't frustrate you. The programming has built them a fine Jenga tower in their heads. They instinctively know which blocks can't be messed with and will react violently when you go after them. CS Lewis will of this phenomenon in the last battle. The kids go into a barn to find Narnia remade and a feast laid out before them. The dwarves who ran in before are huddled together, eyes screwed shut. The kids can't get them to open their eyes. They try to wave food from the feast in their noses and the dwarves dismiss it as straw. Aslan tells the children to leave them alone, they are trapped, and nothing will enable them to see.

No matter how much it hurts, there are four lights.

Blogger tublecane August 05, 2020 2:37 PM  

Apparently invoking the "conspiracy" curse just ain't enough anymore. If ever.

Aren't folk scared of Dark Propaganda anymore?

Blogger tublecane August 05, 2020 2:38 PM  

@33- Sometimes "evidence" means incontrovertible proof believed in by everyone (who matters).

Blogger Kraemer August 05, 2020 2:46 PM  

I'm thinking of getting a mask with a big "Q" on both sides. Only to be worn when asked to, ofc. Best of all, it's a letter that could mean literally anything

Blogger Apoliteia August 05, 2020 3:55 PM  

[...] There was more than 10 times as much Google search interest [...]
[...] on Facebook had nearly 10 times more likes [...]
[...] a 190% increase in the daily average number of tweets[...]

Is it just me or doesn't that kind of journalism feel more than a little infantile?
I mean, it is indicative of page traffic and pos/neg ratio of readership, but still.. are social media websites only sphere these people live in?
An article referring to more mainstream forums where Q narrative, chains of thought or single terms would had made appearance would be more convincing and professional. This, instead, brings Pavlov's dogs to mind.

Blogger Andy'scurious August 05, 2020 4:14 PM  

Vs laser sights .

Blogger Jack Amok August 05, 2020 4:14 PM  

Is it just me or doesn't that kind of journalism feel more than a little infantile?
I mean, it is indicative of page traffic and pos/neg ratio of readership, but still.. are social media websites only sphere these people live in?
An article referring to more mainstream forums where Q narrative, chains of thought or single terms would had made appearance would be more convincing and professional.


More mainstream than Facebook? Dude, they have a daily audience of 2 Billion people. They add more new users each month than the entire combined audiences of CNN, MSNBC, FOX et all doubled. Love em or hate em, there's nothing more mainstream.

Blogger SidVic August 05, 2020 4:21 PM  

A while back i sorta concluded Q was BS. Do you guys really think that Q is authentic? Genuine question.

Blogger Newscaper312 August 05, 2020 4:59 PM  

Q itself is BS (rember Sesssions and Mueller secretly working together under the table to roll up the baddies? Hah!) but usefullypusefully to a lot of overlooked truth, or at least things for people to take a look at.
Part LARP, part crowd sourced open source Intel operation.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 05, 2020 5:16 PM  

SidVic wrote:. Do you guys really think that Q is authentic? Genuine question.
Absolutely authentic administration insider.

@33 Akulkis mentioned the photo evidence, which is pretty solid. What's even more solid is that Trump is allowing and encouraging Q to credibly present as an administration insider.

If Q were not firmly under Trump's control, Trump could not afford to allow Q to represent himself as Trump's spokesman. The fact that Trump allows and encourages us to believe that Q is an administration insider is rock-solid proof that Q is exactly that.

Q is unofficially official, the Trump spokesman who says the things Trump wants folks to hear but doesn't want folks to hear him say.

Blogger SirHamster August 05, 2020 5:35 PM  

Kraemer wrote:I'm thinking of getting a mask with a big "Q" on both sides. Only to be worn when asked to, ofc. Best of all, it's a letter that could mean literally anything

or, QA.

Quality Assurance
Question Authority
Q Anon

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 05, 2020 5:48 PM  

A while back i sorta concluded Q was BS. Do you guys really think that Q is authentic?

It depends on what you mean by "authentic." It's obviously not some guy LARPing from his basement. If it were, the media, with information provided by the social media companies he posts through, would have dug him out and put him on display over two years ago.

So he's someone (or more likely a team) who is connected in some way that allows him to stay anonymous. At that point, you have a choice: 1) He's on Trump's team. 2) He's on the Prometheans' team and all this has been intended to distract or damage Trump's side in some way.

The problem with option #2 is that it assumes the people who spend energy following Q would have been doing something else with it. The theory usually goes, "If you're sitting around 'trusting the plan,' you're not out shooting judges or whatever." But the same people wouldn't be shooting judges if Q weren't around. That's a whole different category of people. Q isn't bleeding off some revolutionary fervor that would otherwise be bursting forth.

The other problem with the "legit" question is that, even if you believe Q is legit, you still can't trust everything Q says. Any venture in the public information war has to include disinformation, or you're telling your enemies everything too. So even if you think Q is legit, you can't take each thing he says as fact or prediction. You have to look at the overall picture. It's kind of like rhetoric versus dialectic: rhetoric speaks to the truth without stating it literally.

Blogger tuberman August 05, 2020 6:27 PM  

42. Newscaper312

Sometime in the first few days of drops, Q said up front, "Disinformation is necessary."

Q did say "Trust Sessions."

Q never suggested that Mueller was in any way a White Hat, as that came from several Anons on their own, and people like Brian Cates, who pushed that hard on Twitter (he has a lot of followers)

"(rember Sesssions and Mueller secretly working together under the table to roll up the baddies? Hah!)"

Sessions, behind the scenes, did apparently set up much that is happening now with the Spy Gate unravel. He still could have been playing a role.

Some thought Mueller couldn't be a Black Hat because, "Once a marine, always a marine." Yet, he had a history of Treason, and some of the most vile prosecutions ever carried out.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 05, 2020 6:31 PM  

Damelon Brinn wrote:He's on the Prometheans' team and all this has been intended to distract or damage Trump's side in some way.

The problem with this hypothesis is that it would be trivial for Trump to discredit Q. All Trump has to do is say ``Who is this Q? I never heard of him.'' That would be the end of Q's credibility and the end of the LARP. Trump has done the opposite, making sure to subtly encourage us to take seriously the claim that Q is an insider.

The only way that Q is not a Trump psyop is if Trump is a Q psyop. One of them absolutely has to be running the other.

Blogger Robert What? August 05, 2020 6:38 PM  

How is QAnon info getting out there? It has been banned from all MSM and Social Media.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 05, 2020 7:08 PM  

JFK Jr. faked his death? Intereting that only sources I could find relating this guff to Q were Rolling Stone and the Bezos Post, two unimpeachably honest public servants every American can trust.

Blogger Pathfinderlight August 05, 2020 7:22 PM  

The media lost control of the narrative when they started openly perusing class warfare against the American people to put themselves in the Marxist nobility. Americans saw that and didn't really have the words to describe it, but we knew it was wrong. Since they made effective work of all leaders who noticed, the exodus of viewership was based on personal experience, which is always a more thorough way to solidify someone's opinion. It took a long time, but the media have taught an entire generation to hate them. That animosity won't be undone. The empire is now stuck with people who hate the narrative pushers.

Blogger Voracious Reader August 05, 2020 8:19 PM  

I work in DC. It is always amusing to read pieces like the Axios article you quoted (https://www.axios.com/, 4 Aug 20, "QAnon's 2020 resurgence") where the political media tries to set a narrative 180 degrees opposite of what Q has written or forced readers to think about.

It's like the staff writers try to barely stay on the side of accuracy when they write nonsense such as "[Q's] growing influence is sowing fear and confusion around some of today's most important issues, such as election integrity and the coronavirus pandemic."

Yes, Q is doing exactly that: making ordinary Americans question their election system, because it clearly needs answers about its security and what pressure groups are trying to manipulate it, and wondering if the COVID-19 pandemic and national economic destruction has been overblown purely for sordid Leftist partisan purposes.

(1/2)

Blogger Voracious Reader August 05, 2020 8:21 PM  

Article like this one, and the NYT 4 Aug 20 op-ed, "How QAnon creates a dangerous alternate reality" (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/opinion/qanon-conspiracy-theory-arg.html), that showed up last weekend like a backed-up toilet simply use fallacy after fallacy to hide the simple Socratic nature of Q's quatrains.

They know the majority of American public doesn't want to think because they have other things going on--namely their lives--to properly reflect on the MSM's narrative or Q's posts. But a significant minority of Americans do read Q's pieces and start to question the MSM/Left's narrative, and wonder if there really is some kind of organized conspiratorial (Cabal/Promethean) structure behind all of this irrational and destructive behavior. And is this conspiracy actually manipulating now 180,000 specific control points (nee unsealed Federal indictments) across the nation? Those are lines of thinking which are extremely dangerous to this conspiracy, because they lead to other more dangerous thoughts and exposures.

The legacy MSM also knows their media attempts aren't working, and they have to switch it up to gaslighting Antifa violence, mail-in fraud voting, Cloward-Piven style election overloading, and decision delays until 20 Jan 21 without a Presidential decision, allowing a President Pelosi to theoretically take over the federal machinery and put a halt to Trump's massive exposure of criminal fraud, deceit, and treason.

None of the Dem's ultimate aims will happen, of course--the cities will collapse first and the US Armed Forces will have to come in under Presidential orders--but the legacy MSM and Marxists have to have some kind of plan forward from June, since none of the other plans have worked worth a damn.

Unfortunately, we have to come along for the ride.

(2/2)

Blogger xevious2030 August 05, 2020 8:57 PM  

Will be looking forward to watching the debate then. Lines are being drawn, and evil will not reconcile due to its state of being.

Blogger qwsae10 August 05, 2020 10:32 PM  

Thanks guys.
Sid

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 06, 2020 7:24 AM  

JFK Jr. faked his death?

I don't know how often Q has mentioned this, if ever, but it's discussed on /pol/ regularly. Which means the NYT and their cabal have people monitoring the chans to learn what they need to build narratives against, but we knew that.

I'd say it's one of the wackier theories. You're always going to get speculation about a death when there's no body recovered. But the idea that a guy who had a great life would fake his death and go into hiding so that 20 years later he could reemerge, not to run for president, but to help a president take down a globalist cabal, would be a stretch as a movie plot. Especially when you roll pizzagate into it: it means this savior would have to stay quiet for two decades while children are abused and killed, not to mention crimes like 9/11 and entire wars started. I'm not signing onto that theory without some strong evidence.

But as a rhetorical question to ask (what if JFK Jr. didn't really die?), it's useful. It reminds people that the official story is often sketchy, including his dad's case. It ties together with the idea that Trump is on a mission to do big things, and his statements from years ago about how certain people need to be taken down.

Blogger tuberman August 06, 2020 8:25 AM  

52. Voracious Reader

Both 1&2, solid, good comments.

55. Damelon Brinn

About JFKjr's Faked Death. I think most feel as you do, as in highly unlikely. Yet it is fun to play with the rhetoric.

Blogger Peter August 06, 2020 9:24 AM  

You guys do know that most of the "Q" theories were discussed here years before Qanon. There was a time when I read every single post here, every day and I can say that without a doubt that Q is associated with someone or some people who we originally were posting here. Q is mis information and rhetoric meant to elicit change from the ground up - a little push here and there - like water - weak and formless but overtime can destroy mountains.

Blogger Boaty Bear August 06, 2020 1:43 PM  

No it hasn't, there's plenty of Q supporting/reporting channels on yt, drops originally and only posted on 8Kun are repeated on qmap.pub and other agregation sites.

They haven't enough fingers to plug the Dyke now.

Blogger Iron Spartan August 06, 2020 2:38 PM  

When you cut a man tongue out, you only prove your fear what he has to say.

Blogger MDeBonville August 07, 2020 2:01 PM  

Newscaper312 wrote:Q itself is BS (rember Sesssions and Mueller secretly working together under the table to roll up the baddies? Hah!) but usefullypusefully to a lot of overlooked truth, or at least things for people to take a look at.

Part LARP, part crowd sourced open source Intel operation.


Is Mueller working with Session that unreasonable? I don't think so. There is no way that can ever be revealed officially so there has to be misdirection. The feud between Trump and Session "Mr. Magoo" is way over the top, that's a hint.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 08, 2020 8:46 AM  

Is Mueller working with Session that unreasonable?

No. But the claims that Mueller was going to start arresting the Democrats whose crimes had been revealed by his investigation and lead some USMC-style justice against the cabal turned out to be as much wishful thinking as the leftist claims that he was about to arrest Don Jr. and the other kids and use them to force Trump to step down. Mueller may have been forced to play it straight--that may have been what his interview with Trump for the FBI job that he couldn't take was about. And he may have secretly indicted people beyond Tony Podesta and passed along evidence to Sessions that Barr and Durham are working from now. But some people claiming to be insiders took it a lot further than that. When Mueller shut down his investigation, they were proven wrong about that, whether intentionally wrong or not.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 09, 2020 9:31 AM  

Damelon Brinn wrote:Is Mueller working with Session that unreasonable?

No. But the claims that Mueller was going to start arresting the Democrats whose crimes had been revealed by his investigation and lead some USMC-style justice against the cabal turned out to be as much wishful thinking ...

Q told us he was going to lie, told us it was disinformation. That was a true statement.
Q is really real, but really not true, in general.

Blogger R Devere September 17, 2020 8:00 PM  

Q has been very specific:

"JFK Jr. is dead"

Now some Qanons---NOT Q---speculate otherwise. There is a difference!

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