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Monday, August 03, 2020

Ruh-roh

More and more people are reaching the conclusion that Patreon has landed itself in some very deep doo-doo and are taking steps accordingly:
PATREON AS A PLATFORM IS IN TROUBLE ! (IMPORTANT)

Everyone Patreon is facing a situation that has come to our attention. We’re not really sure what the future holds for our orange logo’d subscription based platform, and honestly it has us worried. We do feel that our current steady income is at risk, so….here’s our statement. XD

With the future being so uncertain, we talked about it through out the following days to come up with an alternative that could help us and YOU to keep your monthly rewards

Since there’s a lot to unpack here, we decided to make a QnA to inform you all of the decisions we have taken as a preventive measure.
What's interesting is that many, if not most, of these people are not exactly the sort of folks you'd expect to find in the Big Bear fan club, but they can clearly see that the ship is not only infected with Covid-19 and a nasty stomach bug, but is taking on water fast. So, they're abandoning ship.
I've been teeter-totting on whether or not I should stay on Patreon for a while, and this for me is the  kick of the bucket. You're dead to me. First of all, I'm recognizing all of the red flags here. You're losing money, you're in a lawsuit that you're going to lose. Patreon has always been kind of shady with their creators and it goes to show that they don't think their creators have rights.

People are getting sick of it. Guys, there's only so much you can take, at some point you have to jump ship, especially when the ship is sinking into a volcano and everyone on the ship has diarrhea. I don't want to be covered in hot... to those of you who are giving to my Patreon account, thank you and I'm sorry. I am closing it.

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72 Comments:

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer August 03, 2020 9:16 AM  

This is unpossible! The Z-Man assured me that attempts to fight back were useless and sure to be squashed. That the only viable option was to try to find a cell to join and attend secret meetings.

Blogger Stilicho August 03, 2020 9:25 AM  

Will Patreon be replaced by a company that actually does the job rather than act as self-appointed badthink police? Or will it be replaced by a direct subscription model? From a consumer standpoint, I don't care if I enter my credit card info on Patreon or on creator website as long as it is reasonably secure (plus I use a card with intentionally low limits for any online purchases to limit potential exposure).

I expect any creators who derive significant income from patreon to move to direct subscription. Those who don't will move to an alternative or abandon the income altogether (see OP).

Blogger Section 8A August 03, 2020 9:28 AM  

You know it's bad when fishbelly white anime gurl with the glasses sees the writing on the wall so clearly.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 03, 2020 9:37 AM  

The comments on that second link are full of the "but dere NOT-SEES!!!!" squealers and armchair legal experts, and the funniest bit is they're both vomiting out the same wrong arguments that sank Patreon in the first place.

Blogger VD August 03, 2020 9:52 AM  

The crazy thing is that neither the lawyers nor the Trust & Safety people even read the Terms and Community Guidelines. I mean, one can excuse the gammas and the armchair lawyers for not knowing what the relevant rules and laws are, they're mostly reacting to what they've seen floating around the Internet.

But it's downright bizarre to me how the freaking lawyers don't even know what they're talking about. They'll write dozens of filings all based on the same false premise.

WE KICKED OWEN OFF BECAUSE HE POSTED HATE SPEECH ON OUR PLATFORM!

No, he didn't.

OKAY, WE KICKED HIM OFF BECAUSE HE POSTED HATE SPEECH ON INSTAGRAM AND WE POLICE OFF-PLATFORM SPEECH TOO!

Instagram is free.

WHAT? SO WHAT?

So Owen's Patreon account didn't fund his Instagram posts. Instagram is free.

WELL, UM, WE DID IT BECAUSE HE POSTED SOMETHING ON FACEBOOK!

Facebook is free too.

TWITTER?

That's free too.

WELL, HE MADE VIDEOS! ON YOUTUBE. HE FUNDED THOSE ON PATREON!

No, he didn't. He was monetized directly on YouTube and he never created a Patreon video project.

WE CAN KICK OFF ANYONE WE WANT FOR NO REASON AT ALL!

Allow me to introduce you to the Unruh Civil Rights Act of 1959....

Blogger RadixMalorum August 03, 2020 9:53 AM  

Stilicho wrote:Will Patreon be replaced by a company that actually does the job rather than act as self-appointed badthink police? Or will it be replaced by a direct subscription model? From a consumer standpoint, I don't care if I enter my credit card info on Patreon or on creator website as long as it is reasonably secure (plus I use a card with intentionally low limits for any online purchases to limit potential exposure).

I expect any creators who derive significant income from patreon to move to direct subscription. Those who don't will move to an alternative or abandon the income altogether (see OP).


It won't matter if it's replaced by a company that actually does its job. Unless companies explicitly gatekeep against SJWs they will be eventually be infected and converged by SJWs. The people at the trust and safety council of Patreon will simply migrate to places like SubscribeStar and try to repeat their subversion there. At some point companies will have to realize this and immunize them against convergence. If not Vox Day can always eventually create his own payment processor.

Blogger tweell August 03, 2020 9:54 AM  

SubscribeStar is a good alternative to Patreon.

Blogger Daniel August 03, 2020 10:01 AM  

What's next? WE NEVER EVER KICKED HIM OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE WE JUST PROVIDED HIM WITH OUR NEW DARK WEB SERVICES AS A COURTESY. WE GOOD NOW?

Blogger Shane Bradman August 03, 2020 10:11 AM  

Patreon's legal argument was literally, "They shouldn't be allowed to take the legal action against us that we required them to take because it's going to cost us a lot of money." Well, excuuuuuse me, Princess. Maybe you shouldn't have broken the fucking law!

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 03, 2020 10:16 AM  

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:That the only viable option was to try to find a cell to join and attend secret meetings.
Call it a prayer group. Pray. Plan, too.
Think of that option as your plan C or plan D insurance policy, to be implemented and maintained as we march from victory to victory.

Blogger quandry247 August 03, 2020 10:23 AM  

Next scene: Property developer unmasking! Time for a quick snack. This predictable formula remains entertaining.

Blogger Crew August 03, 2020 10:25 AM  

Is this what you call a real deplatforming?

Blogger basementhomebrewer August 03, 2020 10:26 AM  

What does JAMS do if Patreon doesn't ever actually pay them? I would like to see a precedent for how they will treat these cases in the future, but I am guessing they will issue no opinions on the merits of the case if they never get paid. I am assuming they will just issue an award to the bears for Patreon's failure to comply with the process.

Blogger Critias August 03, 2020 10:32 AM  

This is all awesome, thank you Vox for being the outspoken consumer activist that we need and following this great story!

Blogger Barbarossa August 03, 2020 10:52 AM  

@1 Those insisting resistance is futile are merely providing rationalization for their own cowardice. After all, no risk of the war not being over by Christmas if you surrender by Thanksgiving. As for folks like him and their "secret" groups, it's yet another cover for craven inaction. "What are you doing to further our goals?" "Can't tell you. It's a secret."

There are...prayer groups standing up in counties all across the country ("Consult the Book of Armaments."). Time to stand up. Time to pick a side.

Blogger van helsing August 03, 2020 10:55 AM  

reading is a lost art.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 03, 2020 10:55 AM  

Who would have ever thought turning business operations over to immature emotionally/mentally unstable girls primarily white with a savior complex could backfire? Not Z-man, the practioner of the Dark Arts of the Essays, sure to explain what the Left has done yesterday, and you damn well better agree or you will be booted out of the secret club of well informed future gulag internees.

Blogger Maniac August 03, 2020 10:56 AM  

Burn, baby, burn.

Blogger Krymneth August 03, 2020 11:07 AM  

Stilicho wrote:From a consumer standpoint, I don't care if I enter my credit card info on Patreon or on creator website as long as it is reasonably secure.

There will have to be a site like SubscribeStar or something. It is not practical to expect creators to set their own thing up. Taking money online is sufficiently complicated that you can't ask people to set it up themselves and take on the risk of getting it wrong.

My 1 millionth internet profile wrote:the funniest bit is they're both vomiting out the same wrong arguments that sank Patreon in the first place.

To my mind, the biggest condemnation of the Patreon lawyers is the surprising lack of daylight between the arguments they are offering and Internet Lawyers. Patreon does have top-tier Internet Lawyers, because most Internet Lawyers don't even cite cases. But when they do, they don't support the claim they are in support of, and may even actively contradict it. Patreon's got that covered. "Top tier Internet Lawyer" is still not someone I'd want to stand next to in court.

Blogger Ozborn August 03, 2020 11:12 AM  

Locals is an interesting alternative to Patreon.

Blogger Gregory the Tall August 03, 2020 11:15 AM  

What are the chances of someone at Patreon's keeping everybody's contributions for the last one or two months and run away with the money?

Blogger Krymneth August 03, 2020 11:22 AM  

Another dimension in all of this... observe how little goodwill Patreon has managed to engender even with the people it isn't accusing of crimethink. Nobody cares that it's "not-sees" taking Patreon down, they're just glad someone is.

If Patreon had treated its (nominal) customers better, they'd have some goodwill reserves to draw on here, and the anklebiters might be making some good PR headway with their accusations and making people think twice about jumping from Patreon. Instead, it's turning into a precipitating event for something that was already going to happen anyhow, because Patreon has no goodwill.

Consider... how hard do you have to work as a business like Patreon to have such lack of goodwill amongst your creators, when your business model is literally handing them money to do what they love. How do you screw that up?

Patreon's investors take note.

I wonder if they have any clauses that allow them to claw back their investment. If so, I wouldn't be surprised to see that executed sometime this month. Nobody invests in something so your investment can be dissipated in completely avoidable mass litigation. If these clauses exist, Patreon's collapse could be even faster than anticipated. There's a low-but non-zero chance Patreon won't last this week as a going business concern.

(BTW, I think this is a point we should try to put out more. Patreon has an easy out, early on, to avoid this. It has been their choice to dig in and double down. They have had many opportunities to cut losses, they could still minimize losses even now though "no losses" is no longer on the table, and they are still comprehensively failing to take them. This is all on Patreon, not the people finally fed up with them.)

Blogger Leahn Novash August 03, 2020 11:34 AM  

> Will Patreon be replaced by a company that actually does the job rather than act as self-appointed badthink police?

No. Margareth Thatcher stated that Socialism last until someone else's money runs dry. They will do what they always do. They will buy Patreon with a bigger SJW company who can withstand the costs. Microsoft has already offered to buy it. It will very likely plug the legal leak so users post purchase will no longer be a problem and brunt the cost of all current and future lawsuits until either it ends, or Microsoft runs dry of money.

Blogger J Van Stry August 03, 2020 11:35 AM  

I set up a subscribestar last year. I've always found Patreon to be dodgy (and as I've said before, the 'rights' they make you sign away to be there is unheard of in the industry - I even paid my IP attorney to do a legal analysis).

It's kind of funny that this low rent musician, who was barely getting by, creates this wonderful idea, and what does he immediately do?

Fucks everybody over. The money he was making (a hundred times more than he made before founding patreon) wasn't enough. Nope, like most leftists the power went completely to his head. In a few years when he's back to subsistence living, I wonder if he'll realize his mistakes? Or just sit there cursing everyone for the way THEY treated HIM.

Blogger J Van Stry August 03, 2020 11:37 AM  

Gregory the Tall wrote:What are the chances of someone at Patreon's keeping everybody's contributions for the last one or two months and run away with the money?

It's guaranteed. It's an old staple of how they do business in the Bay Area / Website world.

Blogger Leahn Novash August 03, 2020 11:43 AM  

They don't have to realize anything. I mean, they should but MPAI. If they would Anita Sarkeesian would be outta jobs 3 years ago but she's still out there with very high prestige and destroying everything she touches. SJWs will just keep going around wrecking everything they touch and moving to the next company until they are all collected in some big giant company that can afford all of their incompetence like Apple, Microsoft, or Google. Or maybe some gov department.

Blogger Leahn Novash August 03, 2020 11:46 AM  

Low. Microsoft already offered to purchase Patreon. They would honor the contracts.

Blogger Leahn Novash August 03, 2020 11:48 AM  

The investors will be happy. Microsoft already offered to buy it, and it will skyrocket the price if it does. I don't think anyone will jump ship unless Microsoft gives up.

Blogger Barbarossa August 03, 2020 11:52 AM  

It has been their choice to dig in and double down.

Hmmm. I wonder if anyone else has ever had that observation....

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 03, 2020 12:13 PM  

BTW, the whole "You agree to pay our legal costs" provision of the TOS is completely contrary to law and policy and would never be upheld by any court in the US. It's also directly contrary to JAMS policy and California arbitration rules. It is only there to scare you into not asserting your rights.

Blogger Troushers August 03, 2020 12:13 PM  

Of note, Ryan Dawson was kicked off on July the 1st, and his patrons had money taken for July when Patreon knew there was no prospect of providing the service they paid for.

Blogger Uncle John's Band August 03, 2020 12:16 PM  

One of the more obnoxious big tech branding lies is that commercial service providers are “communities”. The louder SJWs seem to believe it though – if you define community as sociopathic projection.

Most people just want the service. Interesting that the linked users don’t care about the fighting of the badthink, or even what Owen and the Bears said. Just happily leaving Patreon – despite whatever inconvenience that entails. And comments are manipulatable and statistically unrepresentative but the pingbacks, votes, etc. skew almost entirely positive. Beneath the bubbly presentation, the girl in the second link just scorched them. When someone that removed from the 72 feels that way, it indicates the magnitude of the opportunity.

Blogger Dole August 03, 2020 12:16 PM  

It is gorgeous. Patreon's legal trouble causes people to leave the platform, which means even more people leave the platform as Patreon is even more trouble. And so the cycle continues. It is rather like the burst of a debt bubble from the speculator's view.

Thank you again to the Bears for putting in motion the events of Patreon's undoing. Turns out all it took is the courage of a bear.

Blogger The Observer August 03, 2020 12:22 PM  

The investors will be happy. Microsoft already offered to buy it, and it will skyrocket the price if it does. I don't think anyone will jump ship unless Microsoft gives up.

Is there a source on this?

Blogger Sean August 03, 2020 12:22 PM  

It's funny when normies can see the writing on the wall, quote: "whilst they're losing money, they're banning people from the platform".

Blogger Yossarian August 03, 2020 12:28 PM  

The best thing about that girl's video is that YouTube recommended it. Don't know who she is, what she does, but it was right there in my recommended videos a few days back. I haven't even searched for Patreon updates on YT, just watched Mike's and Nick's videos. This thing blew up so hard that even YT's algorithms are pushing it.

As Patreon burns it appears all its SJW comrades will just sit idly by and watch.

Blogger Crew August 03, 2020 12:32 PM  

How many internet companies are going to remove arbitration from their ToS now that this has happened?

Will it make any difference?

Blogger Gregory the Tall August 03, 2020 12:35 PM  

Troushers wrote:Of note, Ryan Dawson was kicked off on July the 1st, and his patrons had money taken for July when Patreon knew there was no prospect of providing the service they paid for.
Question: Has anybody suggested to them to consider filing for individual arbitration?

Blogger Krymneth August 03, 2020 12:42 PM  

I have not seen a source on Microsoft's offer to buy it. However, offers are not written in stone. Microsoft is free to change its offer based on Patreon's state. SV is still a business environment. If Patreon is in legal trouble, that drops their price. A lot. Despite what you may hear on the news, it is very common for a SV start up to be bought out at firesale prices when they run out of money. Simply starting up a start up is not the path to wealth and riches.

It also depends on the level of due diligence Microsoft has put in, and how concrete the offer is. Microsoft has good lawyers. Once they see what Patreon is involved in, they're going to come to more sensible conclusions than Patreon's lawyers are.

It's possible in the process of sorting out the legal issues, Microsoft buying Patreon would also be forced to address all our issues with it.

However, given the lack of difficulty in creating another Patreon, if Patreon becomes a distressed asset, I bet Microsoft wouldn't decide to simply buy it at any price... eventually the value of Patreon drops low enough for them that they're just going to create their own instead. It's not hard for the costs of integrating Patreon into their business, even if they pick it up for a literal $1, that it exceeds the cost of creating a new one. The hardest part of a Patreon clone is just getting everything lined up to take money, and obviously Microsoft is long past that point.

Blogger Leahn Novash August 03, 2020 12:44 PM  

No, sorry. I read a lot of blogs and not always pay attention to where I read it. I will gladly retract this, if necessary.

Blogger Krymneth August 03, 2020 12:47 PM  

Crew wrote:How many internet companies are going to remove arbitration from their ToS now that this has happened?

The original reason they forced arbitration on us is still in play. They're still terrified of class action.

If I were these companies, I'd currently be looking at this situation, and saying that Patreon is an unusual situation where large bunches of consumers are nicely prepackaged in a way to become very pissed off and motivated all at once, and that probably doesn't apply to my business, so I'd keep the arbitration clauses.

I'd also start lobbying the California legislature to provide a new "heads we win, tails you lose" option to consumers, but even if that went as fast as possible it won't be fast enough to save Patreon. And I wouldn't care to bet that it'll go anywhere near that fast. This is what the law was designed to do, essentially, not an unanticipated consequence. There's going to be some resistance to overcome. Money may solve that problem, but it's going to take time.

Most of the really big guys aren't facing social structures custom built for these sort of mass-individual acts like Patreon is and won't feel the urgency anywhere near as much.

Blogger Rattlesnake_Kid August 03, 2020 12:53 PM  

Vox, this will be a lovely skull for the collection. God speed.

Blessed are those who thirst and hunger for justice, for they shall be filled.

Blogger Ingot9455 August 03, 2020 1:11 PM  

If they remove arbitration from Terms of Service, then we're right back to class-action lawsuits.

Blogger Doktor Jeep August 03, 2020 1:17 PM  

Why do we even need a patreon? Whatever happened to having a PO Box? Are people so autistic and apt to be triggered that they literally can't even take a walk to a post office?

Blogger Ingot9455 August 03, 2020 1:19 PM  

@13 Like any other court, they issue a default judgement and you try to collect.

If they refuse to pay, you take your judgement to a court, attach their assets, get it confiscated from their bank accounts, etc.

Patreon will obviously attempt to argue in that court that the default judgement from arbitration wasn't fair, wah-wah-wah, and they will get laughed at just as hard as the current judge. It's possible to argue that an arbitration was wrongly decided, but highly unlikely, uphill work, you'd want evidence of malfeasance on the part of the arbitrator or arbitrator/other party collusion or something truly egregious. 'Failure to participate in the arbitration' cuts out all those possibilities.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 03, 2020 1:22 PM  

WE CAN KICK OFF ANYONE WE WANT FOR NO REASON AT ALL!

It's simply astounding how many commie filthbags are suddenly huge, HUGE supports of freedom of association, especially for private companies. Related to this sudden inversion of CLownworld public policy

How many internet companies are going to remove arbitration from their ToS now that this has happened?

Most of the same idiots are under the impression that this is a solution (not meaning you, Crew), that there is some magical collection of words, in the proper mystical order, that can allow someone to waive all their rights to any form of legal recourse. As I've said before, this delusion's only real world outcome is to really piss off judges.

Blogger Ray - SoCal August 03, 2020 1:24 PM  

Unruh Act is terrifying. It’s an automatic $5,000 for those found to be discriminating per member. And the definition of discrimination in California keeps on expanding.

Wow if that can be included against Patreon. That is making the rubble bounce.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 03, 2020 1:54 PM  

This thing blew up so hard that even YT's algorithms are pushing it.

A lot of Youtubers shifted their primary income stream to Patreon when YT kept cutting ad revenues. YT probably figures if Patreon dies, some of them will come back, and they'll have more control over them. No honor among thieves.

Blogger Krymneth August 03, 2020 2:15 PM  

Doktor Jeep wrote:Why do we even need a patreon? Whatever happened to having a PO Box?

Nothing "happened"... it never worked. You can get a one-off donation, but basically nobody remembers to send you a little something every month. You need a subscription site to manage the difference. And "when someone out there remembers to send you something" isn't an income; it's a gift. You can't build a living from gifts. The variability is way too high.

It's the difference between 5$/month from 1,000 people and $50 two or three times a year from a couple of people. If anything, I'm underselling; the level of popularity it takes to get to anyone to do one-off donations is probably higher than it takes to get 1,000 5$/month patrons. It is a huge activation energy barrier. This is not speculation; this is a report from the field. I've seen it in action. It simply doesn't work.

Now, there's no reason the company doing this collection needs to be called "Patreon"....

Blogger Yossarian August 03, 2020 2:15 PM  

Damelon Brinn wrote:A lot of Youtubers shifted their primary income stream to Patreon when YT kept cutting ad revenues. YT probably figures if Patreon dies, some of them will come back, and they'll have more control over them. No honor among thieves.

The presupposition here is that YT cares about money. They run at 1 billion $ loss each year. Whatever game they're playing, it's clearly not capitalism.

Blogger Servant August 03, 2020 2:39 PM  

Patreon throws a fit which to all the world looks like "but we want to!" While abusing its customers for years not just the cancel thing. Their actions created the perception they were in trouble which led to frustrated people having the cover they need with their donors to move, which could spark the stampede. Hilarious, very well done.

Patreon was incredibly vulnerable. Treating people like you are youtube when you are a website with a payment processor account doesn't make a lot of sense. There's a hundred of them now. They don't even host the content. It's their creators giving them free advertising that gets them revenue.

Blogger Vaughan Williams August 03, 2020 2:42 PM  

YouTube keeps demonetizing Life of Boris. If Patreon goes away, we might not get more Boris videos. What alternatives to Patreon can I recommend to everyone's favorite Slav gopnick.

Blogger lowercaseb August 03, 2020 2:44 PM  

On an unrelated note, it's nice to see traditional beauty norms coming back in vogue for the younger YouTubers without becoming TradTHOTs.

Blogger J Van Stry August 03, 2020 2:45 PM  

Doktor Jeep wrote:Why do we even need a patreon? Whatever happened to having a PO Box? Are people so autistic and apt to be triggered that they literally can't even take a walk to a post office?

Because what you're suggesting has never worked and will never work. How much effort and money would it cost to send an individual a dollar a month? Or even five?

More than a buck, I can assure you.

And then there is the whole 'rewards thing'. Most creators send out -several- updates a -week-. If you have to package individual rewards, well using the mail is cost prohibitive. Using a mailing list is easier, but it's still a great deal -more- work than Patreon.

Patreon made it easy to become a patron to an artist. It made it simple for you to do it for as little as a dollar. SIMPLE is what counts here. You make it hard and NO ONE will do it.

I have several methods set up for people to just 'give' me money. To date, after 6 years I don't think I've gotten even a hundred dollars total. However, the people on patreon who give me money with no return expected? That number is in the thousands.

And then there's the money from people who expected a reward. That's even more.

Patreon is an idea so simple, no one ever thought of it. That's why so many use it and so much money goes through it. There are many people I know personally who make four to five grand a -month- off of Patreon.

I did it for reasons other than making money, and I've never focused on making it my primary income. Something about rugs and having them pulled out had a lot to do with that. Still, it's brought me in a great deal of money over the years.

But again, no, your idea can't work and has never worked. It's 100 percent against human nature. Patreon WORKED until SJW nature took over. But any company in the bay always becomes quickly converged.

Blogger boogeyman August 03, 2020 3:02 PM  

44. Doktor Jeep
You would be stunned to find out just how many younger people don't know how to fill out the front of an envelope.

Blogger boogeyman August 03, 2020 3:04 PM  

With apologies to Yakov Smirnoff:
In California arbitration, users deplatform YOU!

Blogger Lucas Darr August 03, 2020 3:05 PM  

What I find amusing that with $400 USD a year, $150 of that hosting fees, anybody can recreate Patreon, or have their own Patreon-like website, using WordPress. Complete with streaming video, tiered subscriptions, slick interface, CC processing, PayPal, AmazonPay, and even comments.

There is nothing unique about Patreon's technology at all. All they have is a network of backers and creators.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 03, 2020 3:29 PM  

Nothing "happened"... it never worked.

Right. In the 90s, lots of software was shareware: you downloaded it and then sent off some money if you liked it and wanted to keep using it. Almost no one ever paid. I'd bet that fewer than one in a thousand of the people who used Netscape 1.0 or Trumpet Winsock ever put money in an envelope for it.

So yes, when people can pay online, they're a lot more likely to do so than if they have to write a check or get a money order and put a stamp on an envelope. And they're even more likely to do so if they can do it in a click or two. If anything's autistic, it's not recognizing this basic fact of human nature.

Blogger jkmack August 03, 2020 3:39 PM  

Individual arbitration is still the best option for these companies, just not how Patreon executed. Which highlights just how egregious Patreons abuses have been. Clear rules, evenly applied, responses in initial 30 day period, to at least attempt to come to an agreement, and all this arbitration business would be avoided. Even just settling with Owen after he made it clear that his fans would file claims. Even addressing their claims in the first 30 days.

Individual arbitrations is no golden key to breaking a company. Just a company as arrogant and idiotic/evil as Patreon has been.

Blogger artensoll August 03, 2020 4:07 PM  

@38 Q" Has anybody suggested to them to consider filing for individual arbitration?"

They've already started. Ryan says he's trying to set up a livestream with the Big Bear this week to talk about it.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 03, 2020 4:22 PM  

Damelon Brinn wrote:Almost no one ever paid. I'd bet that fewer than one in a thousand of the people who used Netscape 1.0 or Trumpet Winsock ever put money in an envelope for it.
Netscape was never shareware. It was always commercial software.
With the zero-marginal-cost of internet distribution, many shareware authors became quite wealthy. John McAfee as a spectacular example. Lots of other individuals made a decent living from it.
A large part of profitability in shareware was perceived value. Something like Wolfenstein 3D or Commander Keen seemed more valuable than say Trumpet Winsock, so people were more likely to pay for it.

In my experience, Millennials are more than happy to pay for things they find enjoyable or useful. Boomers, of course completely unwilling to pay for anything they can get away with taking.

Blogger Sillon August 03, 2020 5:10 PM  

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:This is unpossible! The Z-Man assured me that attempts to fight back were useless and sure to be squashed. That the only viable option was to try to find a cell to join and attend secret meetings.

The Z-Man was worried you see, he was only joking, protecting us all from hustlers.

The Z-Man is a good comedian at times though.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 03, 2020 5:30 PM  

Netscape was never shareware.

You're right. It's funny, I could swear we were handing out Netscape Navigator on disks in 1995, but that must have been its predecessor, NCSA Mosaic, which had free and paid versions.

Good point about Millennials having a different attitude on giving than Boomers. I continue to be amazed by how much streamers and other content creators get in donations. People are generous, if it's not a hassle.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 03, 2020 5:59 PM  

Netscpae was freely available at no cost, because it was provided to ISPs network equipment manufacturers and content providers at a nominal licensing fee. It was also available for free download from the Netscape website.
The business plan was to capture the market and leverage that monopoly to capture enterprise intranet and directory server markets. Microoft killed that with first Windows NT 4.0, IIS, Explorer and especially Active Directory, which blew the Netscape Directory Server out of the water.

I worked for Netscape Enterprise Server support back in the day.

Blogger 7916 August 03, 2020 8:12 PM  

@59

The Three Laws of the SJW exist for a reason.

If a company did as you said, they would not be converged, nor would they expel wrongthink. SJW's are incapable of acting in such a way.

Blogger Jack Amok August 03, 2020 8:43 PM  

The business plan was to capture the market and leverage that monopoly to capture enterprise intranet and directory server markets. Microoft killed that with first Windows NT 4.0, IIS, Explorer and especially Active Directory, which blew the Netscape Directory Server out of the water.

Can confirm. I worked for MSFT on IE back in the day, and we knew the ABM (Anyone But Microsoft) coalition wanted to get to where enough Internet traffic was Netscape servers rendering on Navigator browsers that they could migrate the Windows PC market to their Oracle/Sun NCs.

IEs job was to make sure IE retained enough market share that large websites would not think they could safely ignore IE users, so Windows users would never be second-class citizens.

Microsoft won that war, then squandered it all on stupid Ballmer tricks.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 03, 2020 9:41 PM  

I worked for Netscape Enterprise Server support back in the day.

Very cool. As long as you weren't responsible for the <blink> tag.

Blogger Akulkis August 04, 2020 1:26 AM  

>>
Can confirm. I worked for MSFT on IE back in the day,

How cretinous. Have you repented for that sin?

Blogger SciVo August 04, 2020 3:43 AM  

Krymneth wrote:Another dimension in all of this... observe how little goodwill Patreon has managed to engender even with the people it isn't accusing of crimethink. Nobody cares that it's "not-sees" taking Patreon down, they're just glad someone is.

If Patreon had treated its (nominal) customers better, they'd have some goodwill reserves to draw on here, and the anklebiters might be making some good PR headway with their accusations and making people think twice about jumping from Patreon. Instead, it's turning into a precipitating event for something that was already going to happen anyhow, because Patreon has no goodwill.

Consider... how hard do you have to work as a business like Patreon to have such lack of goodwill amongst your creators, when your business model is literally handing them money to do what they love. How do you screw that up?


Please note that this isn't just bad business sense, it's also a liar's tell. "Goodwill" is a balance-sheet asset with a monetary value. A businessman who keeps it on the books while burning it IRL is just a common conman.

Blogger SciVo August 04, 2020 4:37 AM  

Yossarian wrote:The presupposition here is that YT cares about money. They run at 1 billion $ loss each year. Whatever game they're playing, it's clearly not capitalism.

Audit John Brennan.

Blogger Jack Amok August 04, 2020 12:10 PM  

How cretinous. Have you repented for that sin?

Yes. I bought a nice beach house with my stock options.

Blogger Choroby i dieta August 09, 2020 8:27 AM  

Great info. Thank You

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