ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2020 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Thursday, January 21, 2021

Waking up from libertarianism

The Dark Herald explains his intellectual evolution out of libertarianism and into Christian Nationalism.

Atheism is the bedrock of Libertarianism.  

The iron clad belief that there is only the self and that there is no one to stand in judgement over your life but the self that you created. This is the foundation for that entire school of thought.  Atheism is not an optional extra if you are  a true capital “L” Libertarian, it’s required.

Thus we hit the fundamental flaw; if there is only the self…then why have children? The future belongs to those who show up and Libertarians breed like progressives.  One child per couple leads to extinction in four generations.

And then there is the Libertarian mindset.

Okay it was obvious even when I was a college dipshit that hardcore Libertarianism was never going to get anywhere because the Libertarians themselves were far too fractious for that.  They are fundamentally incapable of organizing themselves in any number larger than five. 

Also their notions about the efficacy of a citizens militia versus a standing military were more romantic than practical.  Even before I joined the Marines I wasn’t buying into them.  For their ideas to work you have to have a lot of people that are willing to die for Libertarian ideals and those famously are not Libertarians.

Still I chugged along for decades not really questioning my beliefs.  And still saying I was one of the faithful.  I suppose I was over-invested in a bad idea.

So what happened you ask?

I woke up.

It took me long enough.

The thing is I believe in results.  We’ve had free trade and open borders (effectively) since the mid 1990s and for twenty years we’ve been pouring wealth out this country like piss out of horse.  Free trade is clearly and obviously a failure.  If you still believe in it then you aren’t facing cold hard reality.  You are living Paul Ryan’s bubble and probably collecting a US government paycheck.  Our standard of living has gone down since it was adopted, (big exception; if you already rich.  Free trade works great for you.).  

Open Borders only work if you are completely separated from the the real world.  Paul Ryan will continue to believe in them because his world view crashes and burns if he doesn’t.  He and people like him immediately begin shaking their head, no, no, no, no, no, the moment you try and point out to them that even if Mexicans wanted to assimilate they can’t due to the vast ocean of bodies that has washed up on our shores.  I mean I’ve literally seen the man start shaking his head in rejection if even the concept is raised. 

And that was the final straw for me.  Libertarians are as reality denying as any hardcore Marxist.

While I was never a capital-L Libertarian, I was a Christian libertarian until I began to examine free trade doctrine and uncovered the many flaws in even the best arguments for it. Nationalism, and specifically, Christian Nationalism, are the only true philosophies in line with Western Civilization. All the rest, from "classical liberalism" to "conservativism" are simply hapless frauds.

Labels: , ,

138 Comments:

Blogger Eduardo January 21, 2021 7:29 AM  

Wait... You can make groups larger than 5 fedoras?

Blogger Andy January 21, 2021 7:32 AM  

The same applies to Christian Anarchists like Jacques Ellul and Leo Tolstoy, although the former was brilliant in his critique on technology and the latter knew how to write a good story.

Blogger The Last Roman January 21, 2021 7:33 AM  

Being in a community of sovereign individuals works great--until the asiatic horsemen crest the hill outside of your village.

Blogger Bernard Korzeniewicz January 21, 2021 7:39 AM  

From a Polish blog:
"Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that consecrated life is considered a phenomenon specific to Christianity. When I write _consecrated life_, I mean precisely this way of life, but also, in part, community life, which no saintly charism applies to. Why so? Because I suppose that the consecrated life was in fact Christianity's answer to pagan secret communities, which had an important function to perform in hierarchical societies. The communities living in the monasteries founded by St Benedict in the hills were not something unknown, they were the revelation and appropriation of a very old idea and practice, without which organised human life cannot exist at all. If we become acutely aware of the consequences of this kind of interpretation, our hair should stand up on end.
What have I just written? Let me repeat - organised human life is not possible without community life. Christianity, aware of this, for it was in the beginning entirely a community life, developing with God's help and inspiration, created several institutions that were, perhaps not copies, but imitations of pagan institutions of a secret character. They were revealed and consecrated precisely in the Christian world, and people who chose to live by the rule became saints and were set as examples for others. Christian communities were active in the area of contemplation, but also of production. This is important, because all of them had not only a spiritual function, but also a secular and, as it were, an earthly one. The congregations were later accused of this very function. They were accused of praying too little and devoting too much time to worldly matters. However, since these are consecrated communities, the laity should not be interested in the directions in which they develop, as long as they fulfil the functions prescribed by the rule and mission. But it was not only the laity who attacked the congregations at the time when they were proclaimed the main enemies of humanity. It was also the hierarchy. Why? Because some of them were offered to join the community life in the good old pagan style, only arranged in a more modern way. And they went for it, for a variety of reasons that are not the subject of today's reflections. And so, consecrated life immediately became their greatest enemy."

Blogger The Lab Manager January 21, 2021 7:39 AM  

I'm sympathetic to some libertarian viewpoints, but free trade and open borders are not one of them. The lol-libertarians, or libertardians over at the Economic Policy Journal are incapable of grasping that race, IQ, and culture matter.

I'm still waiting for the libertardians to show me all those brown, yellow, and black libertarians that care about any of the things that they do. It's also lost on them that anything libertarian derived from Western cultural sensibilities like high trust and not screwing your neighbor over.

The Libertarian Party really went downhill after Harry Brown died and will never recover. It to for the most part is infected with leftist stupidity like 'equality' and 'duh-versity' when they can find one to hang out with them.

Blogger Gary Hoenig January 21, 2021 7:41 AM  

Holy crap VD.... This... this is exactly what I'm feeling. I left the republican party years ago, and thought Ron Paul had the answers and began to immerse my self in Libertarianism. I devoured books and podcasts. Tom Woods reassured me that you can be a Libertarian and still believe in God. I even joined my local L party and specifically the Mises caucus of the party, but every meeting was just acrimony of maladjusted immature people. There were some logical people but it was a dumpster fire. I could never balance the ideals of the movement with reality so I just rejected all labels and found myself without a nation. Christian Nationalist is exactly what I should label myself. Thank you for posting this. This help immensely.

Blogger LoneWolf January 21, 2021 7:42 AM  

"Libertarians are as reality denying as any hardcore Marxist."
In fact, they are, at bottom, twins. Who is the author of Marxism? What is Marxism's ultimate goal? No, I'm not talking about a regime of socioeconomic analysis that relies on a materialist view of historical materialism to understand class conflict within a dialectical framework so as to bring about societal transformation. I'm talking about the ULTIMATE goal. Whence came Marxism? Cui bono?

Blogger JamesB.BKK January 21, 2021 7:45 AM  

The problem with libertarianism however labeled is : enough other people are jerks. It's up there with the calculation problem of communism / state-controlled apparatus as a - if not the - fundamental flaw IMO. Same goes for democracy.

Blogger FutureDeadWhiteButNotDeadYet Male January 21, 2021 7:45 AM  

We live in a fallen world. All utopians (be they libertarians, other flavors of anarchists, Marxists) are at best misguided. At worst, Luciferian.

Nationalism tempered with the Christian worldview (which acknowledges the fallen nature of man and this world) and the Christian morality which follows are as good as it gets.

Blogger George D. January 21, 2021 7:45 AM  

By now we have enough evidence for the absurdity of Libertarianism to conclude libertarians to be either blinded by Evil or its willing servants.

Blogger Glen Sprigg January 21, 2021 7:50 AM  

To paraphrase George Carlin: "I used to be a classical liberal. Now, I'm an Christian nationalist; you grow."

Blogger Shane Bradman January 21, 2021 7:52 AM  

Any ideology that denies the supremacy of God and the family unit is not functional. Yeah, socialism doesn't work, and neither does neo-liberalism, libertarianism, conservatism etc etc and so on and so forth. You shouldn't have ideology at all, your beliefs on governance should be an extension of the family. This leads only to Christianity and nationalism.

Blogger Doktor Jeep January 21, 2021 7:53 AM  

Some of the most horrible people I ever met were during my libertarian years.
Now I'm a Pinochetarian.

Blogger ÆtherCzar January 21, 2021 7:56 AM  

It all starts with Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand has many interesting, insightful, and useful things to say about individualism and collectivism, but one aspect of her novel, Atlas Shrugged, really brought home the weakness of her philosophy, Objectivism. Her heroine discovers the secret mountain stronghold where the creators - the best and brightest and most productive - have withdrawn from society. She meets all the famous industrialists, financiers, and business people who've mysteriously vanished, and sees how each one fits into the utopian community and economy of Galt's Gulch. The missing banker is still a banker. The missing judge runs a chicken and dairy farm. The missing musician runs an orchard. The missing aerospace mogul sets up a hog farm (and runs the community's airstrip), etc. In the entire valley, there appears to be only one mother and her couple of children, and motherhood is treated as a profession on par with all the rest.

Holy demographic crisis, John Galt!

I recall reading in one of the biographies of Ayn Rand, that the original draft of Atlas Shrugged had no discussion whatsoever of children in Galt's Gulch, and Rand only added that token mention at the prompting of an associate who found it odd.

On the one hand, Rand set out to address individualism versus collectivism and accomplished what she set out to do. On the other hand, the failure to address the synergies and benefits of collective social action in families and broader communities leaves the philosophy incomplete.

Blogger V. A. Boston January 21, 2021 8:01 AM  

I've always been doubtful about unregulated economics and Libertarianism ever since one Austrian economist claimed (don't know if it's true, but it's what he said) that the reason Italy is behind us economically is because the gov subsidizes the farms and won't let the landscape be developed as if it were a bad thing to not turn that beauty into storefronts and factories, and a Libertarian talked about how, in a voluntary society, if you don't want the neighbors you have, you can move and form a community where you do. I didn't have things as well-thought out as Vox does, but even I recognized that beautiful landscapes and farmland are good and that you can't form a stable community if everyone is always moving because they don't like their neighbors.

Blogger Sicilian switchblade January 21, 2021 8:03 AM  

What drove the nail in the coffin for my belief that libertarianism was even plausible.

By its very definition it must include anyone and everyone into it's geographical region, most of which will not share libertarian ideas or philosophy. Your little group is swallowed up before it forms into anything meaningful.

Being a Christian I tried the mental gymnastics of spiritual monarchist corporeal anarchist (no kings but Jesus,) and all.

Hierarchies form naturally. Some will give orders others will take them, whether it be called government, corporations or the Elks lodge it'll be a thing.

Blogger Terran Ghost January 21, 2021 8:05 AM  

Perhaps the label I most appreciate about you, Vox, is that of the Christian Nationalist. I've often struggled to find some succinct summary of my values and beliefs and I feel Christian Nationalism is the best representation of my views, faith, and ideals. To find someone who not only openly identifies as such but can convey those views on a variety of subject matter encourages me in my own life. Thanks for this blog and for your tireless fight.

Blogger Western Reckoning January 21, 2021 8:05 AM  

(((Atheism)))

Blogger SplashDaddy January 21, 2021 8:18 AM  

Amen Brother. I was more of a capital-L in the late 80's/early 90's but the more I associated with them I realized they were useless wannabe philosophers who cannot lead anything. (I guess they were primarily gammas who only want to point out how others are "wrong" while avoiding any real responsibility...and I guess that made me one too.)

This corresponded with my agnostic and spiritually lost phase. Fortunately God hit me with a spiritual 2X4 and I finally understood who Christ is.

American politics is a multi-billion $ industry whose purpose is to divided and distract us.

Romans 12:2

Blogger Silex January 21, 2021 8:20 AM  

The essential good sought by both Libertarians and Christian Nationalists was embodied by early American pioneers, who were devout and self-reliant, who scorned waste, immodesty, insobriety, and corruption, who hated despotism, expected courage, personal responsibility, and sacrifice for the common good. They practiced charity but not pity.

Blogger Ben January 21, 2021 8:21 AM  

I'm confused. Does the writer really think Paul Ryan is libertarian?

Blogger Harambe January 21, 2021 8:21 AM  

Don't forget the Randian rape fetish

Blogger maniacprovost January 21, 2021 8:22 AM  

It's entirely possible to believe "free trade" would be nice, but also recognize that it would be nice in a completely different libertarian reality that has no chance of existing.

"Free trade" with China, solely in terms of cheap Chinese goods, would mean
-no US Navy funded by taxpayers, protecting ships
-identical laws or lack thereof in both jurisdictions, to eliminate statist arbitrage
-no taxation or subsidies on any part of the supply chain on either end, because if price is artificially skewed, it's not "Free Trade"
-free flow of capital and no currency manipulation to cause artificially different profit rates in the jurisdictions

Come to that, true freedom means there are no jurisdictions at all, so "free trade" becomes meaningless.

To allay the negative effects of corporate feudalism there would be no corporations established with legal force, not regulations helping them outcompete small businesses.

To prevent the flow of labor from destroying nations and cultures, there would be strong nationalist ideology and widespread "legal" discrimination and nepotism.

Free Trade is entirely reasonable under those circumstances.

Contrast that with the current cabal-libertarian position: that tariffs are somehow SO MUCH worse than the debt-based inflation they would replace. Tariffs being a source of tax revenue, they would of course reduce inflation by an equal and opposite amount, reducing the invisible taxmon savers. But TARIFFS BAD.

I argue that tariffs cancel out the state's pro-trade subsidies to an extent, thus bringing the end result of the 9 billion government interventions slightly closer to what hypothetical Free Trade would look like. *Chef's kiss*

Free trade banzai

Blogger onegoal January 21, 2021 8:27 AM  

Despite any ideas or opinions you may have that I disagree with, it is posts like this that keep my coming back. Something in my cores believes you to have a sincere heart and that is enough for me. So few have even that ...

Blogger Jpc January 21, 2021 8:29 AM  

Greed finalisation and short term profits by whatever means.
Has supplanted fair trade between nations and productive investment in the future.
The Of Two Minds blog nails what you say above down with plenty of examples.
Worth a look!

Blogger dienw January 21, 2021 8:31 AM  

In my college years, science fiction provided me with the perfect icon for Libertarianism in a series of short stories called The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World by Harlan Ellison; iirc, the Beast features a statue of a standing man whose arm reaches outward extending an open hand. Given the nature of the story, that statue became for me the icon of Libertarianism: in my imagination, I renamed the statue The Man who Screamed Me! at the Universe. I have seen nothing about Libertarianism that changes my mind; but only reinforces My opinion.

Blogger dienw January 21, 2021 8:31 AM  

In my college years, science fiction provided me with the perfect icon for Libertarianism in a series of short stories called The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World by Harlan Ellison; iirc, the Beast features a statue of a standing man whose arm reaches outward extending an open hand. Given the nature of the story, that statue became for me the icon of Libertarianism: in my imagination, I renamed the statue The Man who Screamed Me! at the Universe. I have seen nothing about Libertarianism that changes my mind; but only reinforces My opinion.

Blogger T.L. Ciottoli January 21, 2021 8:34 AM  

Libertarianism can stand alone but necessarily clashes with any and all notions of love of neighbor, love of community, love of culture and language, and love of nation. It refuses to believe that open borders and 'free' markets could be manipulated to great effect by enemies domestic or foreign. It is a willful naivety.

If you must choose a 'bedrock' of Libertarianism, it would not be atheism, but rather Nihilism.

It is totally detached from reality just as Galt's Gulch could only exist in an alternate universe where the non-libertarians cannot ever find this gulch nor ever create the ability to march soldiers and drive tanks into this gulch. In other words, a completely alternative universe from this one. A 'utopia', if you will. One every bit as detached from and incompatible with reality as Communism, even if more well-intentioned.

Good riddance. It corrupts the mind and soul in ways only ex-libertarians can truly understand. Christ the King.

Blogger James January 21, 2021 8:40 AM  

Seems he is still operating in the mind, believing in thoughts. I encourage Christians to try to meet people who have qualities beyond what is explicable logically; or else how will they ever have faith in more than the false self (their logic). Libertarianism and atheism are belief systems. True Christianity is not about belief - it is about knowing something truer than the false self, as instructed by Christ. The millions of modern "influencers" playing leap frog with belief systems should just humble themselves for a while, and they are welcome to do so publicly.

Blogger Crunchy Cachalot January 21, 2021 8:40 AM  

Libertarians are as reality denying as any hardcore Marxist.

Actually, Marxists and libertarians are quite different. Libertarians are childish, Marxists are infantile.

Blogger maurice January 21, 2021 8:42 AM  

I am not gay

Blogger Werekoala January 21, 2021 8:42 AM  

I denied "big L" libertarianism thirty years ago when I was going to sign up for their party and noticed that one of the requirements was to disavow the use of force to change governments. I've since found many other reasons to do so, but that was the first stumbling block. Just sayin'.

Blogger CM January 21, 2021 8:48 AM  

++

I had a strong attraction to libertarian ideas. If anything, I find the mental exercise of thinking through their arguments interesting as thought experiments. I find arguing with them to be entertaining. But as much as I like some of the ideas, the practicality and reality of the totality of their ideas is untenable. So, libertarian-leaning Christian Nationalist it is. I'm big on subsidiarity and federalism... I may even be convinced of a federalism that gets closer to feudalism than our modern day version does.

I wish I had read you earlier than I did. I've been reading your satellites since I graduated college, and only started reading you directly in 2012. But I'm glad I did. My being a nationalist was like a dirty little secret I didn't totally understand or fully investigate before coming here. It was just based on intuition from studying the Old Testament and being disgusted with the Monroe Doctrine and FDR's "globalism" from history class.

Blogger CM January 21, 2021 8:49 AM  

I've heard the name Gary North thrown around here occasionally (very occasionally). I started reading him recently and wondered if your economics are influenced by his or at least travel in the same vicinity?

Blogger Some Guy January 21, 2021 8:57 AM  

Based on everything I have read from Dr. Michael Heiser, I think one of the founding requirements for a nation is a god. Which one is really the question.

Blogger Crew January 21, 2021 8:58 AM  

Manufactured and controlled philosophies designed to fracture any opposition.

Blogger Happy Housewife January 21, 2021 9:13 AM  

They remind me of the Dwarves from the last book in the Narnia series, taking down the talking horses running to join the fight for Narnia, all because they don't want either side to win.

I'm sure "I voted my conscience" will keep them warm at the night in the reeducation camps.

Blogger John Rockwell January 21, 2021 9:17 AM  

I want Divine Monarchy. But only one implemented by Jesus Christ himself supernaturally as laid out in the book of Revelation.

The Millennial Reign is the only perfect political system for sinful Mankind

Blogger chuckhough January 21, 2021 9:18 AM  

Any good reading outside of the Bible to better understand the Christian Nationalism?

Blogger Cowboy Bear January 21, 2021 9:19 AM  

Now drop the Nationalism and you'll be truly awake.

The only kingdom that matters is God's Kingdom.

Blogger Revan January 21, 2021 9:22 AM  

How would you define Christian nationalism?

Blogger Wild Man January 21, 2021 9:22 AM  

True westernism (the philosophy as uncontaminated by the empire-building perversion that has been visited upon it, especially strongly for the last 100 or so years), first and foremost, is about exquisite balance (both within individual's psyches as well as within the social order) ..... a balance between the deep ancient, biological impetuses towards competition and towards cooperation (or collaboration if you like).

The issue for westernism, as western-mindset-inspired technological innovations has eroded the boundaries of western-style nationalism (i.e. - western-style nationalism = a particularly exquisitely well-balanced competition/cooperation ordering of the world of human affairs) towards a more international order, ...... is that this true westernism has to win all over again (in keeping with it's long over 2,000 year history of winning ..... winning in the sense of having the capacity to provide better outcomes for more people, better, than any other large system of human organization, as such tending to ultimately usurp the other systems). But true westernism, above all, is pragmatic, and as such, I believe, ultimately will prevail, internationally (being more pragmatic and as such less brittle, than other systems).

But here is the deal (the current very large quandary facing humanity): Since all these systems of cultural organization are ultimately based on differing takes on the best balance between the deep ancient, biological impetuses towards competition and towards cooperation (or collaboration if you like), as is also the case for true westernism ..... this begs the question: ..... 'Assuming a truly western international order can someday be achieved, then .....at that organizational level (all of humanity), what is humanity in competition and collaboration with?'

True westernism presupposes that, at this highly abstract juncture, the answer to this question is 'with reality itself'. Or, to be poetic about it: 'Humanity's western impetus towards this drive towards competition/collaboration with reality itself, is about mankind's drive towards seeking God'.

Now here is one of the current cultural problems now facing the west. The so-called 'left' is quite far behind the so-called 'right', with respect to understanding this human condition (which is just an abstract extension of the biological condition we share with all of life) in these terms. So-called 'rightest' authors, collectively, seem to get it, that what I outlined above, is what is ultimately at play. Leftist authors, collectively, don't remotely seem to get it.

My shorthand trope for these ideas is as follows: What is at play now, for the impetus behind true westernism, and for how that ultimately will affect all of humanity go-forward, is ...... 'are we going to the stars (true westernism's sentiment), or shall we constrain ourselves here forevermore, which perhaps under such mindset, may not be for long (leftist sentiment)?'

Leftism doesn't understand nature. As such leftism doesn't understand the competition/collaboration polarity that is inherent to all life. As such leftism doesn't understand that, for humankind, our history always has been: Exponentially thrive, or die. And this is not human hubris to claim this. It is the reality of our species' abstract interface with the natural (or supernatural if your like) powers, that shape all of life. And leftism does not understand this special quality of humanity (how could it, when it doesn't even understand the underlying concepts, - about the polar nature of the cooperation/collaboration impetus that is the hallmark of all life).

Blogger Viisaus January 21, 2021 9:24 AM  

The intellectual roots of Libertarian atomistic individualism ultimately lie - where else? - in the ancient atomist ideology, that has always been associated with atheistic materialism.

And the great founding father of atomism (even before Epicurus), Democritus, was indifferent to the idea of continuing his own genetic line:

http://www.humanistictexts.org/democritus.htm#_Toc509721155

"42 For human beings it is one of the necessities of life to have children, arising from nature and primeval law. It is obvious in the other animals too: they all have offspring by nature, and not for the sake of any profit. And when they are born, the parents work and rear each as best they can and are anxious for them while they are small, and if anything happens to them, the parents are grieved. But for man it has now become an established belief that there should be also some advantage from the offspring.

43 But I do not think that one has to procreate. I observe in the begetting of children many great risks and many griefs, where a harvest is rare and, even when it exists, it is thin and poor. The rearing of children is full of pitfalls. Success is attended by strife and care, failure means grief beyond all others.

44 Whoever wants to have children might do well, in my opinion, to choose them from the family of one of his friends. He will thus obtain a child such as he wishes, for he can select the kind he wants. And the one that seems fittest will be most likely to continue in his natural endowment. The difference is that in this way one can take one child out of many who is according to one’s liking; but if one begets a child of one’s own, the risks are many, for one is bound to accept him as he is."

Atomistic worldview logically leads to nihilistic relativism:

https://archive.org/details/manhisgods00smit/page/144/mode/2up

"In this atomic scheme man’s ego is but a fleeting pattern. ‘All human affairs,’ Democritus is alleged to have said, ‘are worthy only of laughter.’"

The satirist Lucian of Samosata put these words in Democritus' mouth:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=gy0rDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&hl=fi&pg=PA321#v=onepage&q&f=false

"4TH BUYER. What’s that? You’re laughing at us all? You consider all our affairs meaningless?

DEMOCRITUS. They are meaningless. For there is nothing in them to be taken seriously. The whole world is merely void, infinity, and atoms in motion."

And that doctrine had indeed been the nihilistic core of Democritean materialism. The famous Roman Epicurean poet Lucretius echoed those sentiments, like in this chapter entitled "NOTHING EXISTS per se EXCEPT ATOMS AND THE VOID":

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0131%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D418

Blogger SonyAD January 21, 2021 9:25 AM  

Being a classical, traditional leftist (a nationalist leftist open to international co-operation and fair and equitable trade goods while banning foreign currencies and loans in foreign currencies inside one's own country's borders, as it is a stealth subsidization of imports and therefore unfair trade and unfair competition), I was always against libertarianism and always thought it to be dumb and very dangerous, just like classical liberalism, neoliberalism, conservatism and other kindred ideologies, which I saw as all being on the right and just different wholly owned brands of the same ideology.

There are a lot of issues with the ideology of Libertarianism. However, the most immediately apparent and glaring flaw is its axiom that people own themselves. This requires that people can be merchandise to be owned (beings made in the likeness and image of God can be merchandise to be owned) and also that people can be owned by other people, because the right of ownership subsumes several different rights, including the right to sell that which you own to someone else. It also implies that merchandise or goods can own themselves, since people can own themselves, and Libertarians probably propose that people start out owning themselves.

The other huge problem I have with libertarianism is the issue of homesteading. And that it has no problem with privatized, ex nihilo money creation through issuing interest bearing debt.

Libertarianism is morally bankrupt and always struck me as specifically designed to appeal to spoiled, insolent, impetuous, impulsive and shallow minded children who have a problem with authority and hierarchy where they aren't at the very tippy top.

The wishy washy or pro stance on abortion is another tell as to the moral bankruptcy of the ideology of libertarianism. As is its wishy washy or outright hostile stance on borders and immigration control.

I believe everyone of sound mind and good heart will eventually make their way to the nationalist, authoritarian left, as the only rational and moral ideology there is. BTW, abortion was illegal in 'communist' (I believe really state capitalist) Romania. Food for thought.

Blogger pyrrhus January 21, 2021 9:29 AM  

Most libertardians were obsessed with pot legalization...Now that's gone, so they're just liberals with a pretentious moniker....

Blogger SonyAD January 21, 2021 9:31 AM  

Forgot to mention this too. One of the other rights subsumed by the right of ownership is the right to destroy that which you own. So Libertarianism isn't just, at least theoretically and principially content with slavery being legal, it is also perfectly fine with killing your slaves or mistreating them however you like. If Libertarians pretends that their ideology isn't ok with slavery and mistreating, torturing and even killing your slaves, then they're being lying hypocrites or ignorant morons who aren't aware or do not understand the concept of the legal right of ownership subsuming several other legal rights, including the right to sell that which you own and, why not, take apart or destroy that which you own. Therefore permitting an owners of other people to kill them. Which one would think violates the ZAP or NAP.

Blogger Phelps January 21, 2021 9:34 AM  

I was a Big L libertarian until around 2003, and then a small l libertarian for a few more years. Big L exposed itself for me when it opposed the Iraq war on some sort of insane combination of NAP and Iraqi determinism. I thought, "but if America had a dictator like Saddam, I would want some other country to come in and throw him out." (FWIW, it turns out that I'm already there with Biden.) Once I realized that Big L wasn't about Human Rights but only American Rights (and then only the rights to sodomy and drugs) I was out.

Once I saw the lie with Big L, the lies of small l wouldn't go away, and it was just a matter of time. Libertarianism can be successful in a society of intelligent, conscientious homogenous people. As soon as an Outsider comes in, the whole system falls apart. It's the Prisoner's Dilemma writ large. You can't have a libertarian society AND open borders or diversity.

Blogger Unknown January 21, 2021 9:34 AM  

Libertarianism is the same logic as gun control, but applied to authority and political power. And it suffers from the same errors.

Blogger TheLoneVoiceOfReason January 21, 2021 9:34 AM  

I overcame Libertarianism by becoming a hardcore Pragmatist. You realize that it's nothing more than ANOTHER ideology. You cannot overcome its precept on argumentative grounds. To overcome it is to dismiss it as absurd.

Blogger Jay January 21, 2021 9:40 AM  

I think this is missing a major point. A book called “The Income Tax, The Root of All Evil”, gets closer to the ROOT.

Blogger Unknown January 21, 2021 9:40 AM  

Vox,
How do you define Christian Nationalism? I generally understand what you mean, but the resources I'm seeing are generally anti-CN. What would it's core principles be? Infogalactic has some info, but regarding the US it seems to be focused on the political party of CN, not the philosophy.

Blogger 1683Bear January 21, 2021 9:43 AM  

I agree with almost everything except that what if your country needs some natural resource (say Uranium) that exists in a different country (say in Africa)? Then you need enough of a Navy to secure your supply lines...

Blogger Jay January 21, 2021 9:44 AM  

I think this is missing a major point. A book called “The Income Tax, The Root of All Evil”, gets closer to the ROOT.

Blogger Haus frau January 21, 2021 9:49 AM  

Around 2012 when I got active with the Ron Paul campaign, I would have called myself a libertarian with a lot of caveats. Many, if not most, of the Ron Paul libertarians were traditional constitutionalist Christians like me. They wanted a return to constitutional limited government but also closed borders. These people are all Trump supporters now. I only met one woman in person who fit the atheist LIbertarian mould. Online atheists, on the other hand, were always of the atheist fantasy-land variety as described above. If you have society enmeshed with all kinds of overlapping contract enforment private companies cause "we don't need no stinkin' government!" then ya kinda did just make a government, albeit a very disorganized conflicted one.
The capitol L libertarians have always been every bit as idiotically Utopian as the Marxists because they devoutly believe if we all just change the rules of the game to their perfect Libertarian rules we can essentially perfect human nature.. They do not believe in the fallen nature of mankind. They attribute evil to outside forces that make men do evil. They also are incredibly myopic. When vox pointed out that different cultures define freedom and a well run society differently it was very eye opening to me. Libertarians believe in a "universal man" underneath that always responds rationally (as defined by atheists) according to self-interest. It makes sense. Atheists cannot comprehend the weight that religion, family, and culture play in human choices because they are usually completely detached from all these. That said, they aren't even as successful as the marxists. Name a country run by libertarians? Seriously, it would be overrun by laughing barbarians before they could set up shop.

Blogger Jay January 21, 2021 9:51 AM  

Has Vox read "The Income Tax, The Root of All Evil", by Frank Chodorov?

Blogger DrivingDissent January 21, 2021 9:59 AM  

I read the term "Christian Supremacists" used increasingly to pathologize faith in the Lord.. My reaction is "hell Yeah" what kind if Christian is not a Christian Supremacists.

Blogger Barbarossa January 21, 2021 10:01 AM  

My first inkling that free trade was the Chamber of Commerce's response to the strangulation of the regulatory state was on my first deployment to the Western Pacific many, many years ago when I was but a clueless ensign where I saw not a single American-flagged vessel in six months and thousands of miles of travel. I remarked upon the curiosity of it to which one of the more seasoned officers replied, "They get to avoid the union and all the safety regulations. That's why they do it."

And it's only gotten worse since then.

Blogger Lazarus January 21, 2021 10:02 AM  

The wobbling jowels of righteous indignation. It was worth getting up today.

Blogger Haus frau January 21, 2021 10:04 AM  

"For their ideas to work you have to have a lot of people that are willing to die for Libertarian ideals and those famously are not Libertarians."

To protect the rights of individuals, an organized group motivated by something far beyond a ideology based on self interest is necessary. Right and wrong are relative and the arguments about what constitutes both are very abstract. So in the end, if I'm an atheist and it doesn't effect me then why stick my neck out to change it? Rational self interest does not motivate people to sacrifice and do great things.

Blogger Manster January 21, 2021 10:05 AM  

@52 I wondered the same, as well. I went to InfoGalactic to see a more unbiased definition, but it still basically says ChristNats are anti-semitic, which seems like something Beth Moore would say.

On the basis of Nationalism = Preference for ones national sovereignty, values, and interests above other nations, and those values would be determined by Scripture, that would be the definition of ChristNat I would subscribe to.

I do wonder if Vox has specifically defined it somewhere.

Blogger d January 21, 2021 10:05 AM  

Libertarianism seems to be the simplistic First Aggressor principle trying to puff itself up into a political movement. Conversing with its primary proponency reveals its of potheads who aren't vegans, don't want to surrender their firearms, and/or otherwise lack the depravity and minimum soy content required to join any of the primary sects of progressive degeneracy.

Blogger The Lab Manager January 21, 2021 10:06 AM  

This is how stupid libertarians are at times. So Robert Wenzel, over at Target Liberty/Economic Policy journal, wants to blame Trump for the coming crackdown on libertarians and others on the right who supported Trump.

Yet, he wants open borders where we get all crappy turd world people who are totally clueless to Western concepts like human liberty and human rights that have been developed over the centuries. The cognitive dissonance is amazing at times with these people.

Blogger Azimus January 21, 2021 10:10 AM  

Paul Ryan? Why bring up that ghost?

Blogger pixiegal January 21, 2021 10:10 AM  

Elected Christian Monarchy...that would be ideal.
The Venetian Republic lasted 1100 years.

Blogger brbrophy January 21, 2021 10:16 AM  

Yes! I love when people figure out libertarianism opposes Christianity. In fact libertarianism is a product of the Enlightenment. It’s the political philosophy based on keeping people in the lowest form of thought.

Blogger FacelessBro January 21, 2021 10:16 AM  

Christian nationalism is the only way. It's such a shame people have been programmed to recoil so harshly at even the mention of nationalism. They'll get there before the end, though.

Blogger Didas Kalos January 21, 2021 10:17 AM  

@jay. If you keep asking maybe he will read it. (persistence, bro, persistence). ><)

Blogger Doktor Jeep January 21, 2021 10:18 AM  

Sometimes I think libertarianism causes autism.

Blogger d January 21, 2021 10:23 AM  

TheLoneVoiceOfReason wrote:You cannot overcome its precept on argumentative grounds.

I find "fiscal begets social" seems to work well. Now, if we can get Conservatives to connect the dots of "creed begets politics", then all they would need to do is spawn the will to live.

Blogger BeatYourHeadIn January 21, 2021 10:24 AM  

Open Borders cannot coexist on the same planet as Sun Tzu and his Art of War.

Blogger [Redacted] January 21, 2021 10:26 AM  

"So what happened you ask?

I woke up."

[Shrek Fedora Tipping Meme Declines]
[WAKE ME UP (CANT WAKE UP) Chair Meme Intensifies]

Blogger Edward Redbeard January 21, 2021 10:27 AM  

Every. Time.

But leaving that aside, if you look at a country as a family, free trade is the policy that allows the crackhead, black-sheep son to sell the minivan to buy several mopeds. This decision does not benefit the family, even if it yields a profit and the outcome is functionally equivalent in terms of transportation capability.

The real reason "big L" Libertarianism will never work is that every organism needs to be able to sacrifice its cells in order to survive. The meta-organisms called corporations ie states are no different. Any restriction on the ability of the state to sacrifice individuals for the good of the polity will lead to the quick death of that state.

In theory, if you had a community of libertarians who were homicidal to outsiders, and pathologically fearless to the point of suicidality, such a system could survive. For some reason, Switzerland comes to mind.

Blogger van helsing January 21, 2021 10:27 AM  

2. Tolstoy was a communist Menshevik. / libertarians, cuckertarians I say, think they are above it all. it's a Yiddish thing. / and the trogs are back.

Blogger Steghorn21 January 21, 2021 10:30 AM  

O/T (or maybe not). Tom Luongo says some interesting things over at ZH: "Today the collapse of the U.S. will be on the watch of the people who orchestrated it...Today is the day Trump supporters can finally grow up. He wasn’t Orange Jesus sent to save America from itself. There was never a plan. Trump was just a guy in over his head doing something no President did since Calvin Coolidge, giving a shit about what America means for Americans." Thought provoking and clears away the false hopes so we can get down to business...The Capitol knows it is under siege, not from right-wing militias and neo-Nazis but from their own fear of our not feeling anything for them anymore…except maybe pity." Worth a read and a good example of why despair is not needed. As Luongo concludes, with false hope gone we are now "strangely, free."

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 January 21, 2021 10:33 AM  

When Johnny Carson asked Ayn Rand who would manage her vision of libertarian society, she simply responded with, "the philosophers".

And with that simple answer, we can see how her entire philosophy has a huge fundamental weakness at its core.

If you want a more post-literate take down of libertarianism, look no further than the video game BioShock.

Blogger Zek January 21, 2021 10:37 AM  

Former small (l) libertarian. VD has mentioned that nations can survive even communism if they are a homogenous population. A major flaw of libertarianism is the belief in the fungibility of humans, that a heterogenous population can easily embrace libertarian ideals. The lessons of history are ignored to be replaced by feel-good moral posturing "All people yearn for Liberty! NAP! There shouldn't be borders! A state's power is illegitimate!". Read-world examples of group behavior are simply ignored.

Additionally, I recently came across this article
https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2021/01/16/did-milton-friedmans-libertarianism-seek-to-advance-jewish-interests/
which concludes that prominent Jews in the libertarian movement pushed it, not because of libertarian ideological purity, but rather because they thought it would be good for the Jews. Friedman's wife's family, the Directors, turn out to have had a major role in the Russian revolution and the murder of the Czar. Rothbard pushed sound-money principles because it would be good for the Jews. The Chicago school was run by a Jewish cohort.

White libertarians ignore the spiritual battle, and disregard the racial and religious component of western civilization.

Blogger The Greay Man January 21, 2021 10:38 AM  

Jay,

Vox is well educated in economics and knows what the issues are.

Blogger Damelon Brinn January 21, 2021 10:39 AM  

Rand only added that token mention at the prompting of an associate who found it odd.

I hadn't heard that before, but it makes sense. It feels out of place, like she'd heard of people who care about things like children and posterity, so she thought she should stick one in there.

None of her heroes even think about children or a future beyond themselves. They're all driven to do great work, but as an end in itself. Maybe some people are like that, but most men work at least partly to put a roof over the head of a family and food on the table, to contribute to their church and improve their community. That's true even if they love their work and want to excel at it.

You won't find many libertarians on factory floors or in farm fields. Socialists, maybe, but not libertarians.

Blogger Joeplanet January 21, 2021 10:39 AM  

Having kids sure clears up nihilistic tendencies, doesn't it?

Blogger Crew January 21, 2021 10:39 AM  

@7: It's pretty much the same as Sailer's Law of Female Journalism:

Come the revolution, I will be on top!

Blogger Crew January 21, 2021 10:40 AM  

@56: He reads so much he probably has. Just because he hasn't written about doesn't mean he hasn't read it!

Blogger Gr8Again January 21, 2021 10:45 AM  

V. A. Boston wrote:I've always been doubtful about unregulated economics and Libertarianism ever since one Austrian economist claimed (don't know if it's true, but it's what he said) that the reason Italy is behind us economically is because the gov subsidizes the farms and won't let the landscape be developed as if it were a bad thing to not turn that beauty into storefronts and factories, and a Libertarian talked about how, in a voluntary society, if you don't want the neighbors you have, you can move and form a community where you do. I didn't have things as well-thought out as Vox does, but even I recognized that beautiful landscapes and farmland are good and that you can't form a stable community if everyone is always moving because they don't like their neighbors.

The problem isn't just that everyone is always moving. The problem is, even if you create a perfect neighborhood, you can't keep bad neighbors from moving in. That applies both locally and nationally.

Blogger Johnny Reb January 21, 2021 10:48 AM  

Exactly, they give the Enlightenment too much credit.

Blogger Gallant January 21, 2021 10:50 AM  

I think if you were arguing this matter, different aspects around Libertarianism need different levels of understanding, or entail different levels of abstraction.

For example, the whole childless-extinction thing is pretty easy to understand, as is its consequences. A libertarian type can handwave it away; but could probably understand too that those who are not doing so have planning for a future that he's abdicated.

Free Trade may be at the other end of the spectrum. Especially that the borders could seem arbitrary... I mean there's free trade within a town, within a (US type) state, between (US Type) states . . . what difference extending that orbit to the 40M in that 'state' to the North? Or the one to the south? (I know there are differences even between the two; but it's just more complex than extinction).

Blogger Zorlig January 21, 2021 10:51 AM  

I was a libertarian until I realized just how much human diversity there was - and all my libertarian thoughts depended on everyone being just like me.

Blogger A.D. January 21, 2021 10:53 AM  

I went to high school with Paul. I don't know if he's libertarian, but I do know that he's always been a self-important asshole and schmoozing scheming kiss-up.

Blogger rumpole5 January 21, 2021 10:57 AM  

I don't see how Christian Nationalism can work in the USA unless we either break up into separate regional nations, or have a long focused period of genetic and social melting into one nation. The Anglo/Saxons and the Danes managed it in England, but it took about 500 years and quite a bit of input from the Frenchy/Normans.

Blogger Erynne January 21, 2021 11:03 AM  

I stopped listening to and reading libertarian stuff because I couldn't see how it wasn't anything more than mental masturbation. Because I have zero money, power, and influence, it doesn't matter what my political thoughts are. Nobody cares about my opinion or what books I've read, and I don't have the ability to do anything that will affect anyone (other than my kid). It seems better for me to work on building my own wealth and attractiveness. Wealth so I can support the real movers and shakers, and attractiveness because people will pay more attention to you/take you more seriously.

Blogger Darren January 21, 2021 11:04 AM  

Interesting choice of image Dark Herald used for the article, it's the memorable cover for one of Robert A Heinlein's weirdest novels (and that says something) -- https://www.heinleinsociety.org/concordance/books/job_hc.htm

Blogger FP January 21, 2021 11:13 AM  

DH said: "And that was the final straw for me. Libertarians are as reality denying as any hardcore Marxist."

They're worse because they often are and certainly claim to be smarter than Marxists. They are both utopians but at least commies don't know any better or do and are lying to you.

For me, any respect I had for small l and especially the Libertarian party types died with the passage of Obamacare. Yes, it was a horrible law they all said, but we must move on to caring about gay marriage! Uh, the government just claimed they owned your body, why do you care about the supposed 14th amendment equal right to get hitched? Its the right thing to do, they said.

Then they ran Dude Weedman twice for Prez who only cared about weed and gay marriage. Then only weed after the 2015 gay scotus orders.

L. Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach" book/graphic novel also made the point for me when I read it 10 years ago. Its an amusing sci-fi libertarian utopian novel that points out many weak spots of the philosophy without realizing it. Very pro 2A at least.

Blogger map January 21, 2021 11:16 AM  

"Thus we hit the fundamental flaw; if there is only the self…then why have children? The future belongs to those who show up and Libertarians breed like progressives. One child per couple leads to extinction in four generations."

It's worse than this. For all the talk about "individuals" (btw, Dennis Prager loves talking about individuals), the libertarians miss the essential point: we do not exist as individuals. We exist as families. That is the basic unit of society. Families impose burdens and duties on us that we cannot easily extract ourselves from with any sense of ease or justice. It is why the Promethians push drug legalization. The drug addict's dysfunction and road to ruin is designed to take out entire families.

Basically, libertarianism is the Marxism of the Right. If the Marxists believe you can run a society based on pure altruism, the Libertarians believe you can run a society based on pure selfishness. They are both doomed to failure and misery.

I'm fully convinced that most learning devoid of the pragmatic is designed to contain a strategic lie that undoes the body of learning. In economics, that is free trade. In finance, it is the random walk.

Free trade completely undoes any other benefits that may derive from economic thinking because it exposes the sovereign foolish enough to engage in it to the political machinations of another sovereign power. Economics is always downwind of politics.

A good example of this is Jude Wanniski. He was in the Reagan and Bush administration and even authored a series of memos documenting events in the White House. Reading his memos throughout the 80's it became clear that the Reagan/Bush administrations blew all of their political capital on pushing free trade, making it difficult to pursue or maintain anything else. The Democrat unions knew that free trade was a death sentence, and dug in on everything.

Wanniski, who decried the push toward austerity on both sides of the aisle, could not see that free trade was the ultimate austerity program.

Blogger Mr. Hatch January 21, 2021 11:20 AM  

I left Libertarianism when I realized it all ends in pedos. Murder park, and child rape parties being consistent with their ideology made me so mad that I ever invested so much energy into learning about it. I will forever be grateful for finding this blog.

Blogger Dorota Mosiewicz-Patalas January 21, 2021 11:28 AM  

gggg

Blogger Farwood Bear 2.0 January 21, 2021 11:29 AM  

Does anyone here named Jay have any books they recommend?

Blogger optimalrebellion January 21, 2021 11:35 AM  

Same journey here

was small L libertarian for years, then the scales fell from my eyes and I saw how fake and wrong it all was

The free Trade doesn't work book by Ian Fletcher is a great place to start

Vox's thesis of labor mobility is also rock solid

Over at PA's blog he had a post before the blogs contraction that described libertarianism amusingly

To paraphrase

"High IQ, low ambition men, thinking the rest of the world thinks like them"

He's right its foundations are built on nothing substantial

sure it all sounds good, but then your plan sounds good until you get punched in the face

Deus Vult!

Blogger Karen took the Kids January 21, 2021 11:36 AM  

"Hey maaaannn, all I care about individual rights and the NAP"

That's great until your towns are flooded with savages and you can't get off the sofa because you're too stoned.

Everyone's a libertarian until real life spits in their face.

Blogger lowercaseb January 21, 2021 11:37 AM  

There are some important truths to digest here:

-Libertarianism is something you have to give up to grow. Don't be an old Republican Hippy.
-Cataline (the Dark Herald) is an absolutely phenomenal writer. You should check out his fiction as well as his reviews and essays.
-Most importantly... Maurice is not gay.

Blogger Jehu January 21, 2021 11:39 AM  

A long long time ago I remember being called a 'Libertarian Fascist'. At the time it was kind of a head scratcher. But as I've gotten older, I've come to realize that the overwhelming majority of the population DOESN'T want what I want---which is a government that mostly just leaves me along...a night watchman state as it were. Accordingly, in order to get what I want, I'd have to have a governmental system that totally disregards what they want, and does it with an iron fist, probably disenfranchising most if not all of them. When I was younger I was under the delusion that persuasion and reason would be enough to get there, but I know better now.
There's a reason why capital L libertarianism is nearly exclusively a white male thing, and of English and occasionally German ancestry at that. It's a system favoring guys with IQs over 110 or so, not that there's anything wrong with that. The problem is that it has no way of really defending itself in a political economy.

Blogger Unknown January 21, 2021 11:48 AM  

Libertarianism caught me for a while, since libertarians are very good at pointing out the problems with big gov't, etc. And they appeal to one's innate individualism.

They also can be pretty deceptive through cloaking their lack of substance via high-sounding philosophies such as the "non-aggression" principle. But they leave no place for morality, period. And morality is the basis of all legal and social systems.

The two base philosophies of libertarianism is:

1) You are not the boss of me!

and

2) F-you! I got mine!

Libertarians refuse to recognize any authority beyond their own. It is pretty childish, but they will not recognize anybody nor anything as being "the boss of me." Not even the non-aggression principle. See how that stacks up against abortion, for instance.

Libertarians will howl about the injustices that they suffer, but they will not lift a finger to remedy the injustices suffered by others. If you are oppressed, libertarians will write long treatises denouncing the oppressor. But if you need aid, they will write long treatises about how it is not their responsibility, so tough. Here is one of their "thinkers" relieving himself of any true responsibility for the life of an innocent child, while at the same time claiming that he, himself, would not actually be so callous. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/09/butler-shaffer/of-children-and-fetuses/ "Sorry, kid. Not my monkeys, not my circus."

So, no, there is no way that libertarianism could ever possibly function as a real-world philosophy.

And, like so many of the bankrupt movements and philosophies plaguing the earth today, its founders were all (((libertarians))).

Blogger Haus frau January 21, 2021 11:57 AM  

"Now drop the Nationalism and you'll be truly awake."

God created the nations.

Blogger MichaelJMaier January 21, 2021 11:58 AM  

@Vox: I've thought for some time of emailing you about LRC.com. They don't seem as "pure" libertarians as they were even a few years ago. It's interesting to see a subtle shift there. Much less chest-beating about purity.

For me, the bloom was off the rose when I realized unfettered immigration alone destroys a country in no time. Especially a theoretical libertarian one.

I still would like county-based militias to be the norm. We do not need a damned standing army. They are too much a thing apart from the citizenry, like the police.

Blogger Andrew January 21, 2021 12:01 PM  

I'd say that Libertarianism is more satanic than atheistic, or well more satanic in act than in any kind of worship. A buddy of a friend wanted to rub shoulders with the Libertarian party in California. Within short order he had become a member of the cult of Thelema, was using taro cards and showing great anger if questioned on any of it.

Blogger Crush Limbraw January 21, 2021 12:05 PM  

This article by TDH triggered a whole series of thoughts from my own experience - especially this paragraph: "The hippy right is now in it’s twilight. Generation X believed in the Libertarian cause but the Zoomers simply can’t. They are from age six, soaked in the insane propaganda of the left. Those that finally wake up and yell, “I’ve been lied to all my life,” are not looking for a new lie to believe in. They are looking for the truth no matter how unpleasant it is."
Now match this from a post in DaLimbraw Library:"As has often been noted here, Man is a rationalizing animal. And what I have increasingly noted of late is that most people devote most of their intelligence to rationalizing what they already think to be true than they do to figuring out what they think is not true. This desire to rationalize rather than learn is, quite possibly, the intelligent individual's biggest intellectual weakness." – Vox Day
Discovering truth is a PROCESS for us mortals, not an end state!
BTW - that quote of VD is part of my Connecting Dots Summary on the subject of "Ingrained Presuppositions and Binary Thinking + Ignorance = Human Condition Lacking Knowledge, Understanding - and even of God!" - https://crushlimbraw.blogspot.com/2020/02/ingrained-presuppositions-and-binary.html?m=0
If I had to summarize my own life experience - and I'm into my 9th decade with Gen X kids and Gen Z grandkids - my first 60 years of life was mostly believing a whole collection of LIES, which has taken 15-20 years of reading and learning to UNLEARN. Yet, I still have to deal with old friends who read one freaking book 30 years ago and insist they have DaWholeTruth and refuse to look at any new evidence.
Being indoctrinated from youth is easy - unlearning old, well entrenched 'truths' is near impossible. That's called willful ignorance - and ignorance, combined with utter stupidity - RULES!
Why? Because we all want to be God!
We're dealing not only with Libertarianism, but its cousin Christian Humanism - talk about a chameleonic fraud. Don't get me started, but DLL has a ton on that subject - catch the one by Joseph Sobran - very enlightening!

Blogger 7916 January 21, 2021 12:11 PM  

@60 The 16 points are a good start to defining Christian nationalism. Also note that "anti-semitism" is now ambiguously defined as preferring your own nation, religion, economy, or rule by your own people to that of semitic peoples.

Blogger theartistformerlyknownasgeorge January 21, 2021 12:13 PM  

Libertarianism is comic-con without the hot girl doing cosplay.

I think there was a time where you could honestly believe in it, but even IF it could work on some level it certainly doesn't scale to the current world. Too many people are waiting to fill the voids that a successful libertarian movement would create.

Fortunately they have no intentions of ever winning anything. Their campaigns are just ads for books and speaking engagements.......except suckers pay them to run the ads.

I'd say that I am pretty much a Russel Kirk's Concise Guide Conservative at this point. One of the many things I like about this view is the idea that the forms of government change as the people and circumstances do. We have watched the utter joke of US and Soviet nation building and my own travels in the US and abroad leave me without any doubt that what works in Alabama will not work in NY and neither will work in India or Turkey. One's head has to be firmly planted in your own ass to not see this.

Blogger RandyB January 21, 2021 12:17 PM  

Libertarianism is "hedonism as a political philosophy".

Blogger John W. Smoke January 21, 2021 12:27 PM  

"It all starts with Ayn Rand."

This.

I remember reading that atheist jew tripe in my early 20's and being absolutely enamored with her strident atheism and love of self. It wasn't until much later that the gaping holes in her philosophy became apparent.

"Capitalism, Rand argues, is not today’s system, with its mixture of freedom and government controls, but a social system in which the government is exclusively devoted to the protection of individual rights, including property rights — one in which there exists absolutely no government intervention in the economy."

I believe Big Tech has put that chestnut to bed fairly effectively. Somehow she believed there could be a world where people would be devoted to ideals and live in a moralistic society based on the highest of ideals, the only one that mattered according to her (self).

I now see Rand for what she was, yet another enemy of Christ and Christianity. It took me a while and Vox's numerous writings against free trade to wake me up that we were living under a Libertarian Free Trade system. Yes, L's will argue that there are too many government controls and too much intervention, however the main point was that Free Trade was to bring unbridled prosperity. As if we're all merchants selling our shit on a dock just waiting for new markets to open up.

Blogger Briton January 21, 2021 12:32 PM  

For me, a key error was that the individual was the nucleus of society, but that is/was wrong. The nucleus of society is marriage/family.

Blogger Dark Herald January 21, 2021 12:49 PM  

@Vox

Thank you for the post. It is most appreciated.

And thank you all for your kind words.

Honestly, I missed my biggest clue about Libertarianism in 1987.

That was the year the Prometheus Award went to The Handmaid's Tale.

It was the only reason I picked it up.

While trudging through it I remembered thinking, 'when does this get to the Libertarian part?' This just seems like paranoid Liberal, utter bullshit to me.

I should have listened to myself at the time.

Blogger Shimshon January 21, 2021 1:00 PM  

@62 The Lab Manager, I don't get why he should complain. One of the reasons Wenzel explicitly stated for being against effective managers like Trump was that he preferred the state to collapse so as to usher in libertarian utopia he expects to follow all that much sooner, or something like that (IIRC).

The problem is, the state, while often inept, when it sets its sights on something or someone, can be surprisingly effective, for good or ill, to the point of stealing millions and millions of votes and getting away with it.

It is also clearly able to persist far longer than any of us thought possible (even Vox, who predicted the 2008 financial system collapse didn't expect such a vigorous response to stave off the collapse). The collapse that does come also likely won't be as neat as he envisions (a la the USSR).

Blogger A.D. January 21, 2021 1:03 PM  

"I do not possess the malignant psychological disorder that causes me to convince myself that I am attracted to my own sex and subsequently compels me to behave accordingly." Same sentence as yours.

Blogger JamesB.BKK January 21, 2021 1:05 PM  

They have the best helicopter related jokes.

Blogger Duke Norfolk January 21, 2021 1:10 PM  

(((Libertarianism)))

That's something I've woken up to, and yes, I was caught up in it as well. It serves (((their))) purposes. Atomizing us, deracinating us, etc.

It has created in too many of us a knee jerk reaction to any kind of cooperative community effort and organization. "Collectivism", they cry. While not making distinction between communist collectives, and Christian community.

Blogger Duke Norfolk January 21, 2021 1:19 PM  

It just occurred to me that libertarianism is closely related to white flight. I'd have a hard to explaining that well right now, but it feels right.

Blogger Black Robed Cleric January 21, 2021 1:44 PM  

And almost all of them think that Big Tech censorship will stop when enough of the extremists are silenced. I had one actually tell me the other day he wished tech would crack down on the left so only the nice, center people remained. He also loves to talk about how "muh private corporation" can do what it wants.

For me, why libertarianism did not take hold is because I realized that freedom is not the ultimate good. Their worldview comes way to close to the Wiccan rede of "an ye harm none, do as ye will."

Blogger CM January 21, 2021 1:50 PM  

On the basis of Nationalism = Preference for ones national sovereignty, values, and interests above other nations, and those values would be determined by Scripture, that would be the definition of ChristNat I would subscribe to.

I’d like to hear from VD on this, too. For me, though, CN is also a belief/recognition that God created the nations for a reason, that that reason alone should be enough to justify respecting them.

If God created the nations, it will be only He who unites them under his ruler ship on earth.

In the background of that belief that God raises and fells the nations, there’s the idea of subsidiaries. If one nation falls into decay, rot, and dysfunction, only one nation is plagued while others may thrive. Under global dominance or more people under fewer imperial rulers, more people become lost to a civilization’s dyscivic rot.

So until God has redeemed all the nations, we remain apart politically.

The calling of the individual Christian to go into the world preaching the Gospel is separate from the political and entails the Christian going out into the world, not trying to bring the world to them to make their job easier.

Blogger John W. Smoke January 21, 2021 1:57 PM  

From a moral perspective, libertarianism also falls short. Why for instance is it wrong to have sex with a corpse or two? Or why is it wrong to have fully functional children dolls? Both are reprehensible but under libertarianism perfectly okay.

Blogger Jack Amok January 21, 2021 2:07 PM  

What I realized a while back is that libertarianism and the whole Bill of Rights style individual liberty concept, is only viable within a cohesive, homogeneous society. Of course there has to be reciprocity. I cannot afford to grant you rights you will not grant me in return. People who say my words are too dangerous to be heard need to be silenced. Religions that insist my religion is dangerous need to be shut down. People who vote to steal from me can't be allowed to vote.

But there's another angle. People cannot be granted rights within a society if they do not value that society and wish to preserve it. Because they will use those rights, intentionally or even just through indifference, to destroy that society.

Blogger Canadian Warlord January 21, 2021 2:28 PM  

I believe there's room for volunteerism among a collectivist state arrangement. The ever-expanding state is the real reason people brace libertardism.

Put the brakes on the state already, this is ridiculous. After that, we can deal with libertarianism, or whatever -ism. The state is not here to wipe your ass.

Blogger The Lab Manager January 21, 2021 2:34 PM  

https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2021/01/16/did-milton-friedmans-libertarianism-seek-to-advance-jewish-interests/

Blogger The Lab Manager January 21, 2021 2:40 PM  

@62 The Lab Manager, I don't get why he should complain. One of the reasons Wenzel explicitly stated for being against effective managers like Trump was that he preferred the state to collapse so as to usher in libertarian utopia he expects to follow all that much sooner, or something like that (IIRC).

Exactly! He actually thought that some cunt like Hildebeast would be great for libertardians. RW also refused to admit that these corporations are actually implementing much of the government's agenda under the guise of 'private property' which was totally lost on him.

Blogger Unknown January 21, 2021 3:32 PM  

I'll can tell you that Reason magazine has made itself completely irrelevant. The biggest problem with libertarians is their naivety about being able to reason with other groups. They assume that leftist democrats all want to solve the same problems as everyone else and that the latter are acting in "good faith". The leftists are most certainly not acting in good faith and are using whatever social or other "problems" we have (economy, poverty, global warming, etc.) as justifications for pushing their ideology rather than as objective problems to be solved. Many libertarians, for whatever reason, seem completely naïve to this behavior. That, and as someone else pointed out here, how so many of them are flakes mostly obsessing over drug legalization.

The reality is that the left cannot be reasoned with. They can only be destroyed.

Blogger bobby January 21, 2021 3:36 PM  

Big "L" Libertarians are just NORML with different hats. A joke.

Small "l" libertarian isn't a party, or even some set place on a political continuum. It's just a trend. It's a trend towards more personal autonomy and freedom than where you are at that second.

You don't need to be in favor of no borders or free abortion or legal howitzers to be thinking in a libertarian mindset. You just need some little Gadsden-flag inkling of "everybody else just stop fucking with me."

It's not a noun. It's an adjective.

Blogger Jack Amok January 21, 2021 4:21 PM  

For me, a key error was that the individual was the nucleus of society, but that is/was wrong. The nucleus of society is marriage/family.

No. The family is the family. "Society" is the relationship between families. Families are the electrons, the nucleus is the shared values and expectations that draw them together.

Blogger Beardy Bear January 21, 2021 5:06 PM  

If you live alone in the woods, who do you serve but yourself? What souls can you bring to Christ?

Submitting to Christ inherently excludes individualism.

Blogger boogeyman January 21, 2021 6:14 PM  

Communism/socialism fails because no one will work as hard for the state as they will for themselves. Libertarianism fails because libertarians will work not at all for their nation, their community, their family, or their descendants.

Libertarianism is to a nation what a Sex in the City lifestyle is to a healthy family life. Libertarians are the quietly unhappy, quietly desperate, slutty, childless wine aunts of the Western world.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction January 21, 2021 6:56 PM  

Agree hundred percent. They are the definition of naive midwits

Blogger papabear January 21, 2021 7:03 PM  

The Straussians are coming around: https://amgreatness.com/2021/01/19/clarity-in-trumps-wake/

Blogger DourCdn January 21, 2021 7:08 PM  

Interesting

Blogger David January 21, 2021 7:09 PM  

My opinion has been that Libertarism is merely the right wing of the Humanist spectrum, with Communism on the Left. Their core tenant is Self or Man. I think another reflection of this mindset is the Scifi trope of species accession to higher states and ultimately becoming godlike, hence their obsession with benign, superior aliens, rather than a more realistic interaction such as in the movie Cowboys vs Aliens were they simply came here for our gold.

This ideologies are the Tower of Babel all over again

Blogger David January 21, 2021 7:18 PM  

I think many claim L because they want freedom without God, especially looking at the failure of the American church.

Also some hybrids like Ron and Rand Paul confuse the matter since they take their morals from Christianity and politics from Libertarianism to a degree.

I could go with your comment for leaders since they have certainly put the time in to think through the ideology, but the average joe I really think has not thought it through. This has been my experience anyway.

Blogger DourCdn January 21, 2021 7:35 PM  

Sounds like nationalist socialism.

Blogger Grombard January 21, 2021 7:39 PM  

Supporting libertarianism means supporting abortion ala Murray Rothbard. The book that spelled out to me how satanic libertarianism and liberalism is, is Nihilism by Seraphim Rose written in 1994. That book advocates Christian nationalism.

Blogger Dark Herald January 21, 2021 8:58 PM  

Theproductofafineeduction wrote:Agree hundred percent. They are the definition of naive midwits

You don't know the half of it.

Three of the comments I've spammed at The Dark Herald have started, "I'm confused, so in other words what you are saying is..."

Blogger JamesB.BKK January 21, 2021 10:21 PM  

The moral: Don’t be a slave. Caveat: If you are, be the house slave but don’t be upset when the field slaves call you on your participation in the promotion of slavery. NB: The “authoritarian left” is so moral you only have to kill off tens of millions for the rest to pretend to believe in its precepts or be in the enforcement and looting side of the operation.

Blogger T.L. Ciottoli January 22, 2021 3:43 AM  

Grombard wrote:Nihilism by Seraphim Rose

A must-read by anyone wishing to understand the spiritual and intellectual battlefield we find ourselves on.

Blogger kulicuu January 22, 2021 8:24 AM  

Reification of the "isms". One needn't be a libertarian or Libertarian to grok the significance of freedom and liberty; while the latter doesn't necessitate subscribing to an entire poisoned program.

Blogger Cobalt Wolf January 22, 2021 1:43 PM  

Question to those of you better versed in history and politics than I am.

Someone on social media of the LOLbertarian persuation, to support his thesis that there's no difference between "authoritarian left" and "authoritarian right," used as examples of authoritarian "right":

"theocracy, monarchy, and neocons were all authoritarian right. there is lots of authoritarian right, especially around. militaries and "military industrial complex"."

"there are lots of right wing authoritarian regimes. nearly every theocracy is just like that. ask iran or saudi or a dozen other middle eastern countries. i think you're ignoring a large part of the right as well as, for example, what a horrific trampling the right gave to to the idea of individual rights under bush/cheney. they eliminated privacy, court supervision, even habeas corpus and any, much less due, process. both right and left seem to think that authoritarians are all from the other team. they aren't. both sides have loads."

I thought the "far right" meant limited to no government, while the "far left" was full-on statism, where the state is mother, father, and god. He's definitely using some other definition.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts