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Sunday, March 07, 2021

Don't defend the Devil's own

Charisma Carpenter offers suggestions concerning how she thinks people should respond to allegations of historical sexual and psychological abuse:

• Please don’t tell people to "rise above," "just move on, it was a long time ago," "get over it" and "forgive and forget" abusive experiences. This is dismissive and devoid of empathy. Justice for the abused is an integral part of the healing process. It’s hard for a traumatized person to move on when they watch the transgressors move up the ladder and gain power even as they repeat patterns of toxic behavior without answerability.

• Don’t ask others to share details of their trauma beyond what they are willing to volunteer. Questioning someone’s experience when it is not a part of a formal investigation is insensitive and signals that you, the judge, need more evidence to evaluate what you are being told is truthful. Just listen. Be empathetic. Be a safe person.

• Believe others when they tell you they are hurt or traumatized by events that occurred in their life. It’s taken serious courage for them to identify their pain and be able to speak about it aloud.

• Don’t play devil's advocate for an abuser, make excuses for them or imply that victims have somehow misunderstood their trauma. If they are speaking about it publicly, they have likely done hard work in regards to their trauma and gotten help to process their experience clearly.

• Don't expect victims of abuse to talk about their abuse at the time it happened. Often it takes years for survivors to process their trauma and even longer to realize the extent of harm it has caused.

• Ranking verbal and mental abuse as less intense or serious than acts of physical violence is also a form of abuse. It denies and dismisses a person's experience as not being "painful enough."

• Empathize with people who have experienced verbal, mental or sexual abuse. Just because you can’t see the scars doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

• Don’t blame people for staying in abusive situations. Blame the abuser or institutions still in place for making it difficult or impossible to leave. The underlying message is that the victim "asked for it" or that it's their fault they were abused. It's not. It's the abuser's fault.

• Sexist jokes, job-security threats, microaggressions and passive-aggressive behavior can no longer be accepted as “part of the game” to get ahead. Let's cultivate change away from such toxic tropes. We owe it to the next generation to leave a better legacy in the workplace.

• Rationalizing power abuse, misogyny, racism or sexism to a survivor by explaining, "It was a different time then," is unacceptable. These things were never OK. If we minimize these past behaviors, we’re bound to keep doing them in the future.

• Refrain from making comments, especially publicly, that unwittingly undermine the pain of others. Ask yourself: Do I have anything substantive to add to this conversation? Have I experienced trauma from abuse and discrimination? If the answer is no, it is not your turn to be heard.

• Believe people when they say, "This happened to me." Believe it the first time.

• When an abuser is identified, keep the focus on the culprit instead of diverting the conversation to the abuses of others. Comparisons and "whataboutism" are tactics used to obfuscate the process of holding a specific person accountable and bringing them to justice.

• Seeking accountability and consequences for patterns of workplace abuse aren't about "cancel culture." It's best to reframe it as "consequences culture."

• Don’t make a survivor responsible for how their trauma makes you feel. Rather, consider the person who has been violated. That’s where the focus belongs.

• Headlines often describe acts of rape, assault or drugging victims as "sexual misconduct." It is not "misconduct." These behaviors are predatory and criminal. They should be labeled accordingly. Call the thing, the thing.

• Hire people who have spoken out. Nothing is more isolating and scary than having your ability to feed your family taken away. This fear holds people hostage to their suffering and supports a broken system. Stop labeling victims of abuse as the ones who are problematic. The abuser is problematic — not the abused.

It's important to remember that the court of public opinion is NOT a court of law. There is no presumption of innocence in the court of public opinion, and given the historical nature of the Hellmouth, there should absolutely be a presumption of guilt if a Hellmouth power player is accused of abusive behavior. It's almost certainly true.

Too many men are fearful that they might one day be accused of their own creepy or borderline behavior, which inclines them to defend the indefensible. And the fact that some of the women who are making accusations are literal whores is irrelevant, as under even the most amoral libertarian contractual standard, a prostitute always has the right to decide with whom she will engage in business relations or not. There is no statute of limitations on history.

Good and moral men are not going to be taken down by a higher public expectations of behavior. Gammas, creeps, and pedos will be. So the higher the behavioral bar is raised, the better. And the sooner the true realities of the Hellmouth are exposed, the better. 

Labels:

125 Comments:

Blogger Redbeard March 07, 2021 12:08 PM  

Healing doesn't require any kind of external process, it only comes from within. Whoever wrote this article is a retard.

Blogger Teleport me off this rock March 07, 2021 12:08 PM  

It's unfortunate that sexual assault isn't a RICO predicate.

Blogger Maniac March 07, 2021 12:14 PM  

"Believe people when they say, 'This happened to me.' Believe it the first time."

Jackie Coakley. Tawana Brawley. Emma Sulkowicz. Souad Faress. The c*nts who accused Justin Bieber. Shall I go on?

Blogger Johnny March 07, 2021 12:22 PM  

>>Don’t play devil's advocate for an abuser... It pains me how many conservatives are given to this kind of behavior.

A valuable behavior tell because it is easy to pick up on and reliable, is that people who have been through any source of serious pain, will bring it up only with a kind of reluctance, and they won't become cheerful talking about it. If they want to talk about every little while, and get off on preaching it, they are probably somebody you don't want to know.

Blogger thechortling March 07, 2021 12:23 PM  

It makes you wonder how long it will be before twinkies like her are going to realize her Boomer parents were happy to sell her as a temple prostitute to Hollywood. Temple Prostitutes don't have the same contract as normal prostitutes.

Blogger American Spartan March 07, 2021 12:24 PM  

“ Hire people who have spoken out. Nothing is more isolating and scary than having your ability to feed your family taken away. This fear holds people hostage to their suffering and supports a broken system. Stop labeling victims of abuse as the ones who are problematic. The abuser is problematic — not the abused.”

Unless they are White and support ideas that upset the (((Hostile ruling class))) in that case they deserve to die in the street.

Blogger Jeff Weimer March 07, 2021 12:27 PM  

Take it seriously, but don't always take it automatically as the absolute truth; at least as it pertains to the rest of society. I think the Kavanaugh (and earlier Thomas) hearings and concurrent "public opinion trials" made that abundantly clear.

Blogger Harambe March 07, 2021 12:33 PM  

Yeah I truly feel bad for legit victims of the above. But the fact of the matter is that these self-appointed guardians of the downtrodden aren't here to actually help, they just want to see whitey get knocked down a couple of pegs.

Just because your neighbour beats his wife doesn't mean the HOA can mandate no one should be allowed to wear belts or drink bourbon. There are already laws for this kind of thing.

Blogger FacelessBro March 07, 2021 12:35 PM  

Yes, but there's a difference between the Gammas getting called out on their creepy antics, and the Alphas who get called out 20 years later because they moved on to someone younger and tighter.

For me, that distinction makes all the difference.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2021 12:47 PM  

"Good and moral men are not going to be taken down by a higher public expectations of behavior."

Good and moral men have already been taken down by a standard of behavior so high that it includes "don't ever be accused of anything at all", though not likely often in the Hellmouth. Every form of power is double edged, and many are the people who care not which way it swings so long as it is they who swing it.

As for libertardianism, even forms of it first question who is properly an individual prior to applying rights to them, let alone other moral hierarchies than libertardianism which sometimes have very different things to say about the rights and obligations or lack thereof of whores.

If this standard stays in the Hellmouth it stays in the Hellmouth, yet such a low bar that is. Let the Hellmouth burn, however there is no reason to let any of its denizens escape, the women are no better than the men there.

Blogger Ostar March 07, 2021 12:49 PM  

Redbeard wrote:Healing doesn't require any kind of external process, it only comes from within. Whoever wrote this article is a retard.

No. Whoever wrote this document is a female. Emotions are paramount, as well as the need for external validation of those feelings.

Blogger sstoner1866 March 07, 2021 12:52 PM  

I don't think I'm going to let some little twit tell me how to think about/speak about/react to things today. I don't give a damn what any actress thinks about anything.

Blogger Canadian Warlord March 07, 2021 1:01 PM  

I think the general predatory arrangement can be destroyed doctrinally with something like the "Comic Book Code." Competitors to hellmouth agree:
1) No child actors. Use adult voice actors and animation.
2) Actresses are to have two chaperones, could be friend plus parent or whatever. They are there to make sure the actress isn't alone with the influential types. The chaperones will be treated as crew, despite not being paid more than travel expenses - they will be fed and have access to facilities.
3) Casting should be completely separated in a double-blind fashion. Surely the gamers can djinn something up here. Or volunteer groups with public oversight online can determine who looks closer to the casting requirement. Union roll?
4) The "R" rule. No depiction of, no mention of, no suggestion of.
5) Put a salary cap in place and stick to it as an industry. Something like scale x 2 or scale x . Get rid of the star-fuckers. Gigantic salaries are ended immediately. Performers who want more top-end can take on risk by investing in or being paid through percentage of profit.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 1:06 PM  

they just want to see whitey get knocked down a couple of pegs.

The Hellmouth is not run by whitey.

Yes, but there's a difference between the Gammas getting called out on their creepy antics, and the Alphas who get called out 20 years later because they moved on to someone younger and tighter.

Look at Joss Whedon and Charisma Carpenter. Either then or now. This is most definitely not a case of the latter.

Blogger Unknown March 07, 2021 1:07 PM  

To suit his sadistic appetites,

He abused poor adolescent whites

His fatherless cult wrote off as dross,

And especially these most sadly lost

He trained as bait for the blackmail traps

To which he led his abased satraps

For decades before any pretense

Of justice was made, the evidence

With his agents evanescing as ever,

The distracted public eye glazed over.

http://forthesonsofthewest.home.blog

Blogger map March 07, 2021 1:20 PM  

The Hollywood types like Joss Whedon were the ones who created the rules like "believe all women" because they expected the rules to apply only to warehouse managers in Gary, IN. It is very important to, therefore, make them die by the standards they created.

Attacking Charisma Carpenter, doubting her and defending Whedon is not going to set some precedent such that this system will be overturned.

No, you make Whedon pay. Think of it like watching a devout Communist and his family get arrested and sent to the gulag. His loud protestations of innocence is like sweet music.

Blogger S1AL March 07, 2021 1:26 PM  

> Believe people when they say, "This happened to me." Believe it the first time.

> Nothing is more isolating and scary than having your ability to feed your family taken away.

Huh, I wonder why so many people are reluctant to believe accusations...

Yes, yes, Joss Whedon, Hollywood, etc. Fine. But nobody in his right mind is applying this standard generally.

Blogger Shimshon March 07, 2021 1:26 PM  

@3 "Jackie Coakley. Tawana Brawley. Emma Sulkowicz. Souad Faress. The c*nts who accused Justin Bieber. Shall I go on?"

I have one question. Did they work in the Hellmouth, which has an earned presumption of guilt? If not, then don't go on. The first three didn't, and I can't find anything on the last name with a lazy and perfunctory search.

Blogger FacelessBro March 07, 2021 1:28 PM  

"This is most definitely not a case of the latter."

Agreed. Only in Whedon's wildest dreams is he an Alpha. That's where people make the mistake of trying to defend him, I think.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 07, 2021 1:29 PM  

Why do so many of you think beautiful young women with talents deserve to be preyed on or treated badly?

Charisma Carpenter is a beautitul, talented actress. She's definitely pointing out that she is not an expert or a specialist. She is being humble, and decent and kind, and trying to help the next people coming up in her industry.


It is an industry. It's not just your own private dreamscape. Industries have standards. Do you think women working on an assembly line at a car plant deserve to get molested, harassed and disrespected? Do women in the textiles industry making clothes deserve to be preyed upon? Do realtors need to fear showing houses to clients?

Are there some industries that you think are uniquely virtuous and those women should not fear harm? Which ones? Tell me. Why?


Blogger sammibandit March 07, 2021 1:31 PM  

Charisma's consequence culture rules are great. I don't disagree with a one of them.

I don't think she was a whore but since some were, that doesn't mitigate their claims of abuse. I agree that they have a right of preferential transaction and add that it's necessary to contract law that all parties have a right to transact, whore or not.

Blogger Teleport me off this rock March 07, 2021 1:36 PM  

Some of this is useful information for dealing with difficult situations and traumatized people. Other parts of it are SJW 101. You can tell the difference, right?

Blogger Doktor Jeep March 07, 2021 1:37 PM  

What I wonder is, why it takes so long.
Is there no sense of duty to report abuse in the needs to keep the suspect from doing it to others? Is everybody so asiatically so self absorbed that they just cope with it but not care about the next victim?
But then when finally they do speak up, years later, its to "help the other victims". Uh, how many of those other victims were later on?
Then they claim power or fear or something. We have had a system of automatic guilt for men and most women not going to prison for making false reports going on 20 years at least.

Ironically it's the Joss Wheedons of the world who helped being it. They are like the environmentalists who think they deserve a special pass to the wildernesses that everybody else is told they are not allowed.

I'm so sick of this crowd. They have not gotten any money from me for over a decade now. Alas for every one like me, there are 10 brown immigrants at least buying that cable TV service because it's a status symbol.

Blogger Teleport me off this rock March 07, 2021 1:41 PM  

@7 - Subsequent events would indicate Kavanaugh is a scumbag, though perhaps not for the reasons presented at his confirmation hearings. Or perhaps for those reasons, too.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 1:46 PM  

Shall I go on?

No, because you're clearly too stupid to grasp the point.

Blogger Sweet, Sweet Victory March 07, 2021 1:49 PM  

After what happened to Vic Mignogna, I am going to ask full receipts on an alleged sexual crime.

Blogger Dos Voltz March 07, 2021 2:01 PM  

I'm looking forward to the day when Christopher Wray requires Charisma's List to be used by FBI agents when interviewing Christians, people of the political right, and those who maybe attended Capitol Hill Trump rallies.

Then maybe the SPLC and the ADL and BLM and Antifa will all follow suit.

Oh man, I'm gonna tune my ukelele for the upcoming kumbaya fireside sing-alongs.

Blogger IAMSpartacus0000 March 07, 2021 2:03 PM  

Yeah that is utter dreg but when dealing with amoral people don't expect sanity.

Men, don't look for these women. Don't befriend them, they are broken people that unless God has healed them they are mired in brokenness. They will bring you down as they look for surrogates for their pain.

Yes, that makes it difficult, but you need to change your mind on what you are looking for in a wife and mother.

Blogger I. Renarde March 07, 2021 2:04 PM  

"Don't play Devils Advocate. That's bad"

Yet we were expected to believe Christine Blasey Ford at every turn, and ignore Tara Reade. Her arguments don't even work for Hollywood.

Blogger I. Renarde March 07, 2021 2:06 PM  

Don't question, but believe, and take all allegations seriously, even without proof...

...or just be a Democrat like Cuomo or Jewish like Al Franken and get away with it.

Blogger DrivingDissent March 07, 2021 2:11 PM  

The establishments cycle of self consumption has begun in earnest. I doubt many of Vox's readers are invested heavily in saving the establishment from itself and the permutations of cannibalism the beast exhibits. That being said we should not invest in the values of this destruction ourselves. We can observe and acknowledge the destruction born of our fallen nature without partaking in it beyond the weight of our own transgressions a burden in itself that none of us can bare.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian March 07, 2021 2:30 PM  

I volunteer work in abuse recovery both in secular settings and christian.

I scanned through it quickly, there are some quibbles there, but she does well with many points.

And yes there are false allegations. And yes there are allegations that also go ignored.

Also likely, when in hellmouth, the abusers are not simply someone that has a few too many and gets out of line.

Many of these are antisocial personality disordered or narcissistic personality disordered people and this type of abuse goes beyond simply abuse.

Blogger Phelps March 07, 2021 2:34 PM  

Crunchy Cachalot wrote:It's unfortunate that sexual assault isn't a RICO predicate.

18 USC 2422 is a RICO predicate.

Whoever knowingly persuades, induces, entices, or coerces any individual to travel in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, to engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so,

I would say that the entire Hollywood industry is designed to induce girls from Heartland America to travel to CA to be raped or prostituted.

Blogger AbnEng March 07, 2021 2:39 PM  

I think the ones that we should be most concerned about are not the actresses that played along, but the women that said "No" and had their careers taken away. Example: Cindy Morgan from Caddyshack. Warehouse manager in Gary, Indiana -- presumed innocent pending proof of guilt. (((Hollywood))) -- presumed guilty unless evidence of innocence.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 07, 2021 2:59 PM  

Porn stars think regular film executives are creeps. There are public essays about " Do not take me to dinner and offer a possibility of a film role in a mainstream work and then expect that you'll get sex for free."

I want to hammer this point: Marti Noxon thinks Joss Whedon is a great boss. She is a writer. Do you think Marti Noxon does not deserve to get harassed? Charisma Carpenter is an actress. Do you think Charisma Carpenter does not deserve to get harassed?

This is about like supporting the female accountants that hire illegal immigrant nannies.

Do you really think beautiful, talented women deserve to be treated like they are not our own citizens, our own sisters and cousins and children?

Is being perceived as "smart" a protection spell against harassment? *except for the poor unfortunates at Interlochen that JEpstein had his way with: I'd like to point out that no one has outed him. And it took until a semi-famous writer outed Salinger for anyone else to admit anything there, either. So *smart* is not a protection, either. Are they *smart or *not interested in outing sex pests? or *complicit?

Charisma Carpenter is brave, and good, and decent, and beautiful. She has remained stunningly beautiful, too. I would even bet she's smart, even though she's not a professional writer, or professional attorney or professional accountant. The parable is a servant gets 1,3, or 5 talents and does something with them. They don't trade their talents, or beg for someone else's talents. They max their own gifts. Hers is beauty, grace and an ability to memorize, plus acting skills.

Have you ever been to a movie and then made fun of the terrible acting? So, if there is good acting, you would have to say it's a skill? They memorize buckets of information, probably as much as goes into a medical textbook, and they keep doing it, past the point of medical school. Med school ends in ten years. Acting careers go until, well, death, apparently.

Blogger Matthew Hopkins (MHN) / Sam Smith March 07, 2021 3:10 PM  

I agree with this post insofar as the point is, "don't defend your enemies". I think some people are misunderstanding it as showing sympathy to the leftist doctrine of, "listen and believe".

Obviously listen-and-believe can only become a toxic free-for-all mostly of use to the evil. If all public allegations lead to cancellation then making false allegations will simply become a logical, go-to tactic for everyone, everywhere, with a grievance and a Twitter account. The only non-players would be good persons such as sincere Christians, who will not wish to lie. We cannot abandon discernment just because it is an allegation in the court of public opinion. But, I am pretty sure that VoxDay was not in fact saying that. I think it was more along the lines of, "Don't defend your enemies. Raising public expectations of behaviour is good for us". Lots of people on our side need defending, why waste time on Joss Whedon? Let him look to his own.

The reasons not to defend Whedon about Carpenter's allegations is that firstly they are actually quite well particularised, secondly he has not denied them or offered an explanation, thirdly why prioritise defending some Hollywood leftist even if he is innocent? There are surely more agreeable victims of false allegations who deserve our finite resources.

A factor is that Carpenter is a professing Christian who has accepted at least some adversity for her faith. The correct response to lies is at least a denial, and if you can, a barrage of lawsuits. Whedon's response so far has been total silence.

At a particular time, Carpenter says she was called into a meeting and subject to very specific enumerated behaviours. Whedon could deny it. In comparison, I have far less time for Michelle Trachtenberg's allegations. There was a rule, she says, that she not be alone with him, but why? Of course, again, he has offered no explanation.

The fact that Whedon has been accused in similar terms by a number of other women is also of no help to his case. However, if it were not for Carpenter I would be far more sceptical.

Blogger English Tom March 07, 2021 3:12 PM  

@Canadian Warlord

Good points, but what does one do if it IS a parent who is pimping out their kids, which happens an awful lot in Hollywood?

Blogger Homesteader March 07, 2021 3:16 PM  

#metoo (aka, pound me too), The Duluth Model, and divorce rape.

Response? The Pence rule, and chaperones, and
men refusing to co-habitate or marry.

Result?

Sensible men will treat women as potentially dangerous, and act accordingly, in self-defense.

In very subtle ways, women will find themselves shut out of the very arenas they leveled their accusations in.

Men WANT women; women NEED men.

Big difference.











Blogger vmax71 March 07, 2021 3:18 PM  

24. Crunchy CachalotMarch 07, 2021 1:41 PM
@7 - Subsequent events would indicate Kavanaugh is a scumbag, though perhaps not for the reasons presented at his confirmation hearings. Or perhaps for those reasons, too.


For obvious reasons, I have permanently eliminated Kavanaugh when using examples of individuals unfairly treated.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2021 3:31 PM  

"It is an industry."

It isn't really. It's an artistic area, that's why the rules are fuzzy and things get pushed so far. Industries also produce useful things, which entertainment by definition is not, otherwise it would be instruction, simulation, or re-enactment instead of entertainment. It can be argued that, since the entire point of this "industry" is to portray images, it's fundamentally playing with fire.

There has been a historic and reasoned disdain for people who are effectively high-grade, serial, professional liars, and with this you can see why they were usually considered equal to prostitutes if not inferior, even apart from the close association of the two and ready movement of people between them.

"It's not just your own private dreamscape."

For a director, it's very nearly that. He has to create something that can be sold to other people, otherwise the flow of power is the same.

"Are there some industries that you think are uniquely virtuous"

Nearly anything has historically been considered more virtuous, sometimes including actual prostitution.

Special vs general instances. Is given actress deserving of this treatment? Probably not, however the general landscape didn't come to be all by itself. Burn it all down, if we're going to generally play "guilty until proven innocent" it should generally be applied both ways, otherwise it's an incentive to abuse of a different sort.

Blogger John Rockwell March 07, 2021 3:34 PM  

@Sammibandit

Many solid points with her advice. But it's still mixed in with bad like believing a person without being aware of evidence backing up their claims.

I cannot and will not believe unless there is also proof.
Of course with Hellmouth I would be more inclined and would like those snakes to fall into their own traps.

But even then there needs to be actionable proof.

Blogger Ranger March 07, 2021 3:44 PM  

"Let's apply these standards to evil powerful men. Because there's no chance they will be abused against powerless decent men" said no one ever.

Bad idea.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2021 3:46 PM  

TL;DR: You can sympathize with the person while rejecting some of what they say.

Blogger Storm Rhode March 07, 2021 3:50 PM  

Maybe charisma needs to go talk to the struggling actresses trying to scrape a living together from covid tips. I'm sure she can convince them not to bang a chubby gamma producer in exchange for a six figure acting gig and the connections that brings.

Blogger Homesteader March 07, 2021 4:57 PM  

Ariadne Umbrella wrote:

"Charisma Carpenter is brave, and good, and decent, and beautiful."

Speaking of acting...

"Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."

You're clearly emotionally invested in this, Ariadne.

You lost me when you compared actresses to physicians.

Blogger Canadian Warlord March 07, 2021 5:00 PM  

@37. English Tom
>>>"Good points, but what does one do if it IS a parent who is pimping out their kids, which happens an awful lot in Hollywood?"
_________________________________________
There's only so much that can be done from a production standpoint. I believe that the environment surrounding the problem can be sanitized to some degree. I also think that reducing the giant piles of cash as incentives should keep out a certain element. The age restriction should cut down much of the "pimp out" factor. If there's controlling parents there as chaperones, not having the (((producers))) they're hoping to meet would certainly help.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2021 5:03 PM  

"Do you really think beautiful, talented women deserve to be treated like"

I don't think they necessarily were in the first place. Some were, some were not. There's the disconnect.

Her rules, if you accept them all, require you to assume that the claimed sins occurred, all evidence, motivation, instinct, or reason aside. That is what is being argued against. Have you truly never seen #believeallwomen before?

Further, if an environment leads to so many accusations being made in the first place, true or false, that environment needs to be done away with. Clearly it promotes either the crime, or mass false accusations, or both. In this case logic indicates that it promotes both crimes and false accusations of crimes, doubly perfidious.

Blogger A.D. March 07, 2021 5:03 PM  

What "victims"?! Zero evidence means zero crime. Eff the #MeToo B's and pussies!!

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 07, 2021 5:23 PM  

Any one blockbuster in Hollywood makes more money in one year that entire other countries' industrial output.

It is an industry. The final product might be a flimsy roll of tape, or some electrons whizzing around on a disc, or whatever the tech for projections are these days, but it is an industry. It has real estate. It has distribution nodes. It has trade fairs. It has tech innovation labs. It has marketers. It has writers. It has 'faces' - marketers, if you want a category. It has blue collar workers. It has unions, plural. Powerful unions.

It's an industry that sent the boss of one of its union into the White House. The head of the AFL-CIO has to get invited to dinner to the White House, and then leave. The Hollywood union guy called the White House home for eight years.

A director is a CEO of a big production with tons of direct reports. Joss Whedon behaved very badly, when he should have known better. He is third generation: no one has rumors about his grandfather, his father, his brothers, or his cousins. If one of the later Fords had taken up with underage workers on a factory line, that Ford would be slagged, too, we hope.

So, tell me again why a beautiful, talented young woman succeeding in a competitive industry job deserves to be harmed.

Blogger stevo March 07, 2021 5:40 PM  

Every micro-aggression must be met with a swift, retributive micro-response.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother March 07, 2021 5:48 PM  

Who, whom anyone?

The autism here is over 9000.

Blogger John Rockwell March 07, 2021 6:07 PM  

Shows one of the most important reasons for sex segregation.

Blogger James Fox Higgins March 07, 2021 6:20 PM  

I would posit that whoever wrote this is a professional parasites whose instinct to keep other weak and dependent overrides any moral capacity. They’re probably quite intelligent, but almost certainly behaviourally parasitic.

Blogger Unknown March 07, 2021 6:22 PM  

Our wise and moral cultural overlords have decreed that listen and believe is the new standard when dealing with sexual assault. It's our duty to believe all women in regards to rape/abuse allegations.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 6:39 PM  

What "victims"?! Zero evidence means zero crime.

The underage girls who were sexually abused. The underage boys who were provided with illegal drugs and raped.

Go defend the Hellmouth pedos somewhere else. Also, you clearly don't even know what "evidence" is.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 6:40 PM  

You lost me when you compared actresses to physicians.

In fairness, actresses kill far fewer people in any given year than board-licensed physicians.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 6:42 PM  

I cannot and will not believe unless there is also proof.

Like supporting statements from nearly every member of the cast of Buffy? Furthermore, no one cares what you believe. The fact is that you are inclined to defend someone whose own WIFE has publicly accused him of improper behavior with multiple actresses.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 07, 2021 7:04 PM  

Actors and actresses memorize metric tons of words within hours. I know medical personnel who used their arts training to memorize medical textbooks. At least one person is a medical doctor, after a career in show business. I don't know the career path of the others.

Jurassic Park was worth more in one year than the entire South Korean car industry in one year. That's why the South Korean government gave tax waivers to the Chaebols to build the Hallyu Wave. K-pop, K-drama. They went from being in the same economic zone as all the other little Southeast Asian countries to wealthy.

And, yes, Charisma Carpenter is good, kind, beautiful and brave. Why not admire her?

Blogger SplashDaddy March 07, 2021 7:43 PM  

For the 18 or so years I’ve been reading Vox Popoli daily, I’ve never seen more asininity and jackassery from the Dread Ilk than some of the first few comments on this thread.

Sexual crimes are spiritual crimes. The victims feel profoundly ashamed, grotesque and unclean, as they are spiritually tormented by what has happened to them. Imagine the children who were groomed then abused by adults in whom they trusted. They know what has happened is profoundly wrong even at an early age – doesn’t change the fact they now broken emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. They have an open wound; they are tormented by demons. Even if they ultimately heal through reliance on Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the love of fellow Christians, they have a life long scar.

And this type of healing is never an internal process. What an idiotic and un-Christian thing to say. How many addicts, or people who never knew God and lived lives wallowing in sin and misery ever “white knuckle it” and heal themselves? It simply doesn’t work that way. Merely praying for help to sooth anxiety (Phil 4:6-7) is an external process. Did any of the people healed in the Gospels heal themselves?

Charisma Carpenter is talking about people who have been traumatized and are desperate for someone to confide in, to trust. You think they just need to say a bedtime prayer and they’ll wake up in the morning all bright and shiny?

As for “believe them,” if someone comes to you and confides in you, they are doing this because they trust you. Just listen! Just “love your neighbor” damnit. It’s not your job to seek vengeance on their behalf. It’s not even your job to determine the veracity of the victim’s story. There are authorities and professionals for all that. Start asking questions such as – “Why didn’t you…” – and you are rubbing salt in an open wound and compounding their pain and suffering. If the victim ultimately turns out to be a liar, I doubt the Lord will condemn you for being kind.

Ariadne Umbrella gets right. Just because we hate Hellmouth doesn’t mean we should support the destruction of people’s lives. We hate Hellmouth BECAUSE of this!

Lastly regarding Vox’s comment on “good and moral men…” Context damnit! We’re talking people who are in positions of power and authority over others. Good and moral men who are smart enough and successful enough to be in these positions don’t ask young girls or boys who are seeking a job, a chance at a dream, to come to their hotel room alone.

Blogger Eric Waite March 07, 2021 7:43 PM  

While I can understand the urge to reject the "Me Too" "Listen and Believe" rhetoric, any leftist who has been a public advocate for it should be held to it. Period.
For better or worse, "Who/Whom" is now the de facto law of the land. Any opportunity to see it blowback on its creators should be encouraged and celebrated.

Blogger SplashDaddy March 07, 2021 8:00 PM  

For those bleating about "proof" and "I refused to believe" blah blah blah - what we believe doesn't matter. Ms Carpenter is in this industry. Presumably these are people she knows. As for us commenting, these are accusations by people we do not know and will likely never know, against people we do not know and will likely never know, at events to which we are not invited and will likely never be invited.

But here is some food for thought for those who doubt. Think of all the child stars of the past 30-40 years, people now in middle age. Of those that actually survived past 30, most of them seem really messed up psychologically. All of them seem miserable and unhappy with frequent public displays of their rage, anger, and hatred. Despite their wealth and life of leisure, they are observably miserable. Why would that be?

Blogger Homesteader March 07, 2021 8:10 PM  

Two separate social issues in this thread.

The Hellmouth,

And,

Sexual harrassment claims.

As for the Hellmouth- I favor a Third Punic War approach, because I like that which has worked well for our ancestors, when dealing with child-sacrificing foreigners, and sowing salt on the plowed under ruins of Hollywood just seems atavistically appealing.

As for sexual harrassment claims- they run smack into the Grrl Power that the Hellmouth loves; that is-

Are women special, or equal?

Choose one.

Then order your social mores accordingly.

But don't write blank checks of credibility made out to "beautiful, talented, young women in competitive jobs" by insisting such women would NEVER stretch the truth for cash and prizes.

The standards of English common-law and Roman jurisprudence should not be corrupted any further than they already have just because Denise in accounting feels strongly that Bob in housekeeping is creepy.

Because that is exactly what this Charisma girl is saying, on a society-wide basis.

And that, is a recipe for chaos.

Blogger Homesteader March 07, 2021 8:12 PM  

"In fairness, actresses kill far fewer people in any given year than board-licensed physicians."

All those kick-ass superheroines aren't reflective of reality?

Blogger John Rockwell March 07, 2021 8:38 PM  

@VD

Of course. If it holds up in criminal court it is even better.

I am speaking in the general sense not Joss Whedon and in response to the statement that she gave in regards to believing victims the first time they tell.

Corroboration, Alibi and so forth is what I am talking about. Likewise with physical evidence.



Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2021 8:39 PM  

"So, tell me again why a beautiful, talented young woman succeeding in a competitive industry job deserves to be harmed.

First you must tell me where anyone here ever argued that, and you cannot. You're arguing with a figment of your imagination.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 07, 2021 8:41 PM  

" Zero evidence means zero crime."

No, it just means you've been unable to gather evidence, either positive or negative.

Blogger RedJack March 07, 2021 8:46 PM  

And a reason I'm very careful when building my crews. Rule of three if there is one woman in an area. No one is to be alone with a member of the opposite sex.

In 20 years in industry, I have seen some pretty horrible behavior.

Blogger NedFlinders March 07, 2021 8:54 PM  

The loudest voices caterwauling against the #metoo movement are essentially hedonists attempting to hide their concerns about jilted lovers (or women they've creeped out) behind a facade of strict legal ethics. You can tell they don't really care about the latter because they never seem to raise their voice on other issues of abuse of due process. They only become super-ethical on law when those abuses start to infringe on their ability to live like degenerates, putting their dick in anything they can or creeping women out in their failed attempts to do so.

They're basically upset that the luciferian (libertarian) society they've helped to create is now treating them as fodder rather than cattle. Boo hoo. They wanted a society with no enforceable moral standards and now they have it. So when a woman cries 'rape' and her alleged rapist is fired, digitally unpersoned and shunned by every acquaintance they should take solace in the fact that all of the people destroying their life are simply practicing freedom of association based on whatever guidelines please them.

After all. Whedon isn't in jail or before a judge, so all of this is simply people doing as they please under the freedoms afforded them. That degenerate is free to pursue slander charges if he likes. The degenerates built this machine. They can't start complaining that it's not functioning as intended to their eternal benefit.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 9:01 PM  

Corroboration, Alibi and so forth is what I am talking about. Likewise with physical evidence.

All totally irrelevant to the court of public opinion. You're not a court of law. Stop pretending you have the same standard as one.

If all of the woman's castmates, male and female, believe her, why wouldn't you? The guy's ex-wife certainly does.

Blogger sammibandit March 07, 2021 9:01 PM  

@John Rockwell

Many solid points with her advice. But it's still mixed in with bad like believing a person without being aware of evidence backing up their claims.

I cannot and will not believe unless there is also proof.
Of course with Hellmouth I would be more inclined and would like those snakes to fall into their own traps.

But even then there needs to be actionable proof.


An accusation is evidence. Maybe I'm stupid, but it's knowledge, not belief that guides that statement. Taking in the Hellmouth setting, the power imbalance with an actress and a showrunner or director, I'm looking at that accusation as a piece of info in a chain of some event, immoral or criminal. VD already mentioned corroborating statements as "supporting", which also shows that the accusation is the primary evidence.

If your daughter says she was groped by her teacher do you take that statement as evidence or do you wait for so-called proof? I hope the latter.

Blogger VD March 07, 2021 9:02 PM  

But don't write blank checks of credibility made out to "beautiful, talented, young women in competitive jobs" by insisting such women would NEVER stretch the truth for cash and prizes.

You sound more worried about your own past behavior than logical consistency. Sexual harassment isn't about women, especially with regards to the Hellmouth.

Blogger John Rockwell March 07, 2021 9:05 PM  

@VD

I am not talking about that. I am talking about the disastrous scenario of listening and believing anyone who claims to be a victim at face value.

That's what I am responding to in her statement.

Blogger John Rockwell March 07, 2021 9:13 PM  

As for the court of Public opinion. Sure. That's the reality of it.

Blogger NedFlinders March 07, 2021 9:18 PM  

62. HomesteaderMarch 07, 2021 8:10 PM
...
Are women special, or equal?
Choose one.
---
You don't understand women.
You don't understand patriarchy.
You don't understand the spiritual hierarchy.
You don't understand that your entire society is an ongoing insult to the Lord.
God help you.

Blogger John Rockwell March 07, 2021 9:21 PM  

I think I misspoken in regards to Hellmouth in my first comment.I shouldn't have included that in my statement.

And merely addressed and only addressed the listen and believe claim.

Sorry about that.

Blogger Homesteader March 07, 2021 10:21 PM  

Now that you mention it- I suppose every man needs to be concerned in that light,
given that accusations of such can be made even years later. No one is thus immune. (Thankfully, I've not faced any such accusations. )

And yes- sexual harrassment is about power.
In our society, it mostly involves females on the receiving end, so it is mostly about them.

And legal issues involving sexual harrassment must be addressed in a way that protects both parties. The court of public opinion is a poor venue for a fair trial.

Remember- no matter how much you may despise someone- they are (or should be) presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Although, with the Hellmouth, the evidence is already incontrovertable.

Blogger Other Josh March 07, 2021 10:40 PM  

This is very applicable to the recent Ravi Zacharias revelations, where the famous Christian apologist supposedly groomed and gratified himself with multiple women. The self-righteous Christian commentators who feel the need pile-on their condemnation and opinion about Ravi's behavior is becoming quite tiresome. What's extra frustrating is their loud insistence that all the affected women are "victims".

1.) The affected women accepted Ravi's gifts, compliments, and did not refute his advances.
2.) There were many women who did refuse Ravi's advances who did not suffer any consequences whatsoever for their rejection.
3.) Many of the affected women willingly sent sexual images (sexting) to Ravi's phone. No one made them do this. They willfully did this in response to Ravi's request.
4.) Several of these women received financial support from Ravi (housing, schooling, living allowance, etc.) These Christian commentators are declaring these women as victims because they reason, "They complied with Ravi's advances out of fear they would lose his financial support." In my mind, that just makes them prostitutes. They had a price, and Ravi figured out what it was.

Yes, it's a horrible situation. A "man of God" seriously fell and destroyed his ministry and his testimony. But, Christians must always be mindful of what God's word says:

"If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and sleeps with her, then you shall bring them BOTH out to the gate of that city and you shall stone THEM to death: the girl, because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. So you shall eliminate the evil from among you." - Deuteronomy 22:23-27

It doesn't look like God buys into the "victim narrative".

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 07, 2021 11:44 PM  

As for the calling out of actors as potential prostitutes. America has a fully differentiated economy because it has a prosperous economy. There are actresses. There are sex workers. There's even levels of sex workers: streetwalkers, out-calls, in-calls, escorts, cam girls, porn actresses, strippers in clubs of different calibers, staff at adult bookstores, staff at adult toy stores, writers, educators on the public dime, essayists (they shoot porn stars, don't they? She's profiting off porn as much as the stars)

There are cable actresses, advertising actresses, stage actresses. There's the modeling industry. Ring girls at fights. You don't think they don't think of what they do as a profession?

If you are going to throw down European history down as a way to judge people, go ahead and remember that factory girls were famous drunk who would lift their skirts for pay, nurses were drunks who'd lift their skirts for pay, ballerinas were famous for being expensive girlfriends. That's just women. Barmaids, orange-girls, mudlarks. I'm leaving people out.

Navy men were disease vectors. Military men were STD vectors. Men on motor-cycles were considered all sorts of anti-social. Gladiators- athletes- were slaves and gigolos. Do you want to say "Ackschually....... Tom Brady is an athlete and historically he'd be a gay boy toy for the emperor?"

That's the difference between us and them. We have had enough of a high -trust society to build enough wealth that women didn't have to prostitute themselves.

Blogger Harambe March 08, 2021 1:49 AM  

I have no trouble believing this behaviour is rampant in Hollywood. I mean, if you're a powerful man who holds the keys to a pretty young thing's entire future, it's an almost irresistible temptation to first want something in return. And that behaviour isn't just limited to the casting couch. You'd probably be expected to keep "paying" for your continued success.


Do I have proof? no. Do I find it hard to believe? also no.

E.g. I think the reason Emma Wattson isn't in any big new films is because she got Weinsteined and cut her hair like all abuse victims do. I mean, she is every bit as talented as Natalie Portman (read that any way you want) and just as pretty too. So the only explanation for her lack of A-list status is that she didn't like getting fondled. Just a random thought. Zero evidence other than that picture of her and Weinstein where she looks like he just killed her puppy.

Blogger VD March 08, 2021 5:20 AM  

You're banned from commenting for Excessive Gamma, A.D.

We shall have to do without the benefit of your Smart Boy analysis going forward.

Blogger VD March 08, 2021 5:22 AM  

The court of public opinion is a poor venue for a fair trial. Remember- no matter how much you may despise someone- they are (or should be) presumed innocent until proven guilty.

A fair trial is not the point. If you have put yourself in a position to permit accusations of sexual harassment to be credibly made, you deserve that unfair trial in the court of public opinion.

It is utterly absurd to apply the rules of a fair trial to public opinion. That has never, ever, happened and it will never, ever, happen. So stop trying to defend an indefensible position.

Blogger VD March 08, 2021 5:25 AM  

The self-righteous Christian commentators who feel the need pile-on their condemnation and opinion about Ravi's behavior is becoming quite tiresome.

I totally disagree. I always thought Ravi Zacharias was a fraud. The more people that pile on him, even retroactively, the better. And there is nothing self-righteous about holding a self-professed Christian leader to basic behavioral standards.

Every Christian pastor who commits such acts should be exposed and shamed to the point that they never dare to present themselves as leaders again.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 08, 2021 5:56 AM  

"If you are going to throw down European history"

Ha, no. You shameless naïf. There are myriad current examples of both actors and actresses gone to and come from sex work. One well known and open case is Sylvester Stallone who owns his past. It isn't history, and the "industries" are as differentiated as, to be crass, two glutes. They have a divide between them, yet they are mirror images of each other, in contact all the time, and are joined in dark places.

History reveals the right of it, my point is about historical people being less socially retarded than modern people, they knew what was and is still going on.

"girls were famous drunk who would lift their skirts for pay"

Profession makes no difference there and it's still the same way. Even beyond that, today generally all that is required is the drunk part. Women who will get drunk in the first place heavily tend toward having poor self control. This is neither here nor there, irrelevant.

"That's the difference between us and them. We have had enough of a high -trust society to build enough wealth that women didn't have to prostitute themselves."


I'll be perfectly blunt. There is no difference. Things are still the same. Women are still dependent and sell themselves for support, marriage being the optimal and legitimate form of it.

The sole difference is that people like you yourself, too sheltered to know what is going on, are much more common today than apparently they were in the past. I'm directing you to history because even the modern naïf ought to be able to see through 20/20 hindsight.

I'll repeat and clarify my first point: Actors/Actresses are the most highly trained and practiced liars, and often associated with the sex trade for good reason still today. One sells the body, the other sells the personality and opens the character to be a potential stamping ground.

This does not mean that each actor or actress either has engaged or would willingly engage in prostitution. This does not mean that prostitutes deserve abuse. This does not mean that every person who claims victimhood lies.

However, it does mean that actors and actresses are trained to fool you and aware of it. It does mean that actors and actresses are much more often of ill repute than the average person, largely due to the above. It does mean that people often lie in claiming victimhood. It does mean that people who will immediately believe accusers, regardless circumstances, are direct incentivizers of lying witnesses.

Blogger Th3 J3st3r March 08, 2021 6:00 AM  

And this is why the machiavellian maxim "real victims suffer in silence" is true.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 08, 2021 6:06 AM  

"And there is nothing self-righteous about holding a self-professed Christian leader to basic behavioral standards."

They should be punished more harshly, as an example to would-be imitators. The higher you fly, the harder the grounding when you fall.

This doesn't excuse the prison-inmate behavior of other christians, "at least I'm not like that guy!", yet people like Ravi should receive all the punishment available.

Jesus himself says that those who teach are held to a higher standard!

Blogger Homesteader March 08, 2021 6:39 AM  

Spare me your non-comprehension; can you even read?

Blogger Homesteader March 08, 2021 6:50 AM  

I don't disagree; if the evidence is piling up- you're done for. And, in this specific case; there's lots of evidence. Let the Hellmouth burn.

I was adressing the larger social issue raised by Charisma Carpenter- that we should, in all cases, take all accusers at their word. That's what I was addressing, because, in that instance, anyone, no matter how pure, is vulnerable.

So, Punish the guilty, by all means-
but don't expect blind faith.

The Innocence Project is testament to the damage blind faith can cause.

Blogger Cwyn March 08, 2021 8:15 AM  

Fact is, those who stay in the Hellmouth have no one to blame for themselves. Those with actual character will leave on principle and conviction.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 08, 2021 8:33 AM  

A.A., so now wives are sex workers?

That's mighty classic feminist of you.


Blogger NedFlinders March 08, 2021 8:53 AM  

The degenerate luciferians are reduced to clutching at straws.
"Innocent until proven guilty!!!"
But if the man down the street was accused by three different families of molesting their children would that same man spouting "innocent until proven guilty!!!" wait for charges to be laid and for a successful prosecution before he told his children not to go near the man?

Of course not. They are hypocrites of the highest order. They operate with a legion of prejudices every single day. They won't hire a man with facial tattoos despite being unable to prove he's committed a crime. They'll cross the road to avoid a group of blacks despite being unable to prove they've committed a crime.

But when a (fellow) degenerate from an industry of degenerates is accused of degeneracy they cry out "innocent until it's proven!"

Pathetic.

Blogger VD March 08, 2021 9:06 AM  

Those with actual character will leave on principle and conviction.

Brave words. We'll see if you quit your job when your industry and your company get converged. Because virtually no one does.

Blogger John Rockwell March 08, 2021 9:09 AM  

If there is any one person that I know has been unjustly defamed in Public opinion due to Media Lies.

I believe in only this person as being innocent. That is Michael Jackson.

I believe Razorfist laid out a good case for his innocence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs&list=PLmirOw7JCi826i_J_xsWhtY7jh2sqIlpX


There was even a responses to the Documentary on Michael Jackson. That's the only exoneration out of all those people who are in the Entertainment industry which all deserve to burn in hell.

Blogger Across the World March 08, 2021 9:19 AM  

I agree with 16 and 60. If you push for a standard, you should be held to that standard. Whedon pushed for ‘believe all women’. He should be held to it.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 08, 2021 10:58 AM  

Alright, there seems to be a bunch of opinions about an industry that isn't your industry. You are relying on media reports. What's the fallacy? You read the newspaper about your industry, the media makes a mistake, you call it out and then turn the page and believe the next set of lies because it's not your industry?

Hollywood/ entertainment/ show business: It's an industry. It's a big, varied industry. It's a big, varied, lucrative industry.

Joss Whedon could have done the sensible thing and called a prostitute. He didn't. He creeped on an under-age actress, rather than hiring a prostitute. Joss Whedon could have really committed to the cheap lifestyle, and gone bodysurfing on his fans at a convention. Carrie Fisher did it, and no one is mad at her for doing that.

Joss Whedon messed up career actresses and wasted time on set (expensive!!!) to satisfy his appetites. Nobody is saying he couldn't sate his appetites, he just had to have some sense about what he was doing. There's enough meth-head moms that he could have even satisfied himself with an underage prostitute if he was that picky.

There are divides, even on the sex work side. Saying actors do porn and act is like saying "Musicians rock and work at Taco Bell" as if they are the same thing. They aren't. Strippers can do prostitution, but they also choose not to: Miley Cyrus tried to get a stripper to have sex, and the girl ran off to a gossip columnist. She has a job, and it's not prostitute.

Citing ancient Greeks for morals is just lame. They also thought slavery was a reasonable thing. We have machines: again, that's a big, world-changing difference between us (NWEuro descendants w/ tech skills) and the entire rest of the world. We have enough abundance that women can earn a living on their own, without having to deal with a man if they don't want to. We have enough that we let single moms raise their children rather than scoop them up into orphanages, which are kind of like pop-in shops for pedophiles.

Blogger BeatYourHeadIn March 08, 2021 12:01 PM  

While I deny the existence of rape culture as defined by Feminism, I do not deny that our current corrupted political system actively seeks out those whose weak-minded addiction to vice in order to promote to positions of power individuals who are easily blackmailed and controllable.

My heart goes out to victims of this unholy power structure.

Blogger Jpc March 08, 2021 12:27 PM  

Good point!

Blogger L.Fairchild March 08, 2021 12:38 PM  

There's a pretty interesting divide in the comments on this one. If Vox is interested, a Darksteam on the topic would be appreciated

Blogger Joerg F. March 08, 2021 3:45 PM  

This woman is certainly not Catholic, otherwise she wouldn't have appeared in Playboy.

They may have all been abused, and this Whedon guy is without a doubt scum of the earth (even insulting the looks of teenage cancer survivors) -- but the Buffy women, this Carpenter one especially, are imbeciles and airheads, too, for sure.

This is such a horrible, vulgar world. This cannot be taken seriously. I hope they all rot and die.

Blogger Joerg F. March 08, 2021 3:48 PM  

"without having to deal with a man if they don't want to"

Are you kidding or what? Defending single motherhood is downright evil. No one needs to have sex, or even has a right to it, simply teach chastity again.

People who defend fornication and overall vulgarity like you should be met with the death penalty.

Blogger sammibandit March 08, 2021 7:55 PM  

This cannot be taken seriously.

Ah yes, just like your post.

Blogger flyingtiger March 08, 2021 8:47 PM  

I should sympathize with Joseph Whedon.(his real name) Cordelia's main complaint was the he "was mean to her." Her sudden pregnancy forced him to have to rewrite many of the season's scripts so that she could act standing behind furniture. He did this in a very gamma way. I like the thought of someone who proclaimed himself as a "male feminist" is now seeing all the women whose careers he created turn on him. I enjoy watching him suffer.

Blogger BeatYourHeadIn March 08, 2021 11:06 PM  

I noticed the same thing.

Parts of her article have the ring of logos, and other parts are clearly the work of the forked tongue trying to sneak the corrupted meme into the mind.

Blogger OvergrownHobbit March 09, 2021 1:16 AM  

Good and moral men are not going to be taken down by a higher public expectations of behavior.

True. And holding the oligarchs to #believeallwomen is priceless.

Just do not forget Potipher's wife.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 09, 2021 8:28 AM  

Can I please hammer this again? Joss Whedon was a great boss for female writers. Why? Why was he okay with being great to female writers, but not great with anyone else?

I could take the lazy approach and say it's a disordered state of personal view: he's a writer, they're a writer, he's got a somewhat female vision of his internal creative process......blah, blah, blah.

What's more interesting is that no one else is disagreeing with him. Girls who do "smart" are supposedly safe from creepers? Women who write are safe from predators? A college degree is proof they are smart?

This, to me, looks like another type of way that college educated types prey on non-college educated people. The actresses on this one show were all pros from, like, childhood. Sarah Michelle Gellar has been working since she was four years old. She had to switch out of regular high school because she was absent so much from going to auditions.

Mr. Epstein, who didn't kill himself, was apparently a great sponsor for bright, wealthy young women, introducing them to nice job prospects. Then he went and preyed on poor, poorly educated working class girls in Florida.

I don't think it is because the working girls are more slutty, and the college girls are made of finer moral material. Jeffrey Epstein had a vacation house at Interlochen, and not one person has come forward. I am suspicious that it's not because a victim isn't there. It's that a victim isn't going into the public spotlight. Everyone apparently kept big secrets about JDSalinger's appetites for decades.

"Life is an IQ Test." So, are we saying now that you need that one particular piece of paper certifying you as a smart enough person, so that you don't get identified as a possible target for a creep? You need to spend $100,00K+ to get a college degree to be seen as smart enough to be not preyed on? Is that it?

I don't follow the idea that all these women are whores, and historically, and so on. We're dealing, at least in the media, with a group that can't look at the Virgin Mary herself, and not think she's a hooker. If she's a hooker, who isn't, in their eyes?

And, again, not to be a jerk, this is a group that specialized in turning nice, normal kids into sex toys and slaves. Everyone needs a Coca-Cola, everyone is a prostitute, is not a reliable metric.

Blogger Avalanche March 09, 2021 11:34 AM  

@1 "Healing doesn't require any kind of external process, it only comes from within. Whoever wrote this article is a retard."

To the absolute 100% contrary! Recovery to whatever extent is possible REQUIRES some external process. Ever heard the term gaslighting? Certainly the lefties have used "sexual abuse" as an amorphous weapon against good men and bad, but to therefor suggest it's not real is "retarded."

One of the things that made my own childhood "real" was to "sneak up" on a more and more accurate internal picture of my and my sisters' childhoods. A better description of it.

I was the fight-back (verbally) girl, my older sister retreated from conflict; my younger sister submitted. And when trying to formulate the image and explanation of my childhood, I got to: 'yeah, daddy knocked us around a little bit' Then, later: 'well sometimes it was a little bit more than just a whack,' There was the time he cornered me on the floor in the kitchen and was kicking me, and my mom went hysterical at him... {shrug} (Note that the kicking was abnormal; not the usual sturm-und-drang, now with hitting!)

As an preteen, I began to say, half-bragging and half-defensively that 'sure daddy hit me the most -- but I provoked it the most.' (Did I EVER get any response from teachers or pastor for that glimpse? No.)

Some years later, when the county provided a psychologist for us as daddy lay dying of cancer; I was unemotionally describing this event to him, and my sisters cried: "OH! We were terrified! We were that other end of the kitchen watching." Me: !!! REALLY? I would have sworn a thousand times in court that they were not even HOME for that one! And my mom? Had not one iota of memory that it had ever occurred. They say traumatic memories either stay strong and real, or get repressed pretty much entirely...

I was in my THIRTIES before I was hit by the epiphany that: **It is NOT EVER incumbent on the 5-6-8-yr-old child to prevent the adult male from losing his temper!** NOT EVER! Whoa! There's a change in PoV! And with that came the realization that we three grew up ALWAYS careful "not to set daddy off." Wanna bet THAT had permanent effects on our views of "how safe is the world"?

But I have held for years, and will always believe: *saying it OUT LOUD makes it real*. If you cannot say it out loud, to another human: "THIS happened to me, and it has had an effect on who I am." then it's still not altogether REAL.

It was part of the same epiphany where I gained huge compassion for my dad. If I am going to forgive myself for MY trespasses against other people, intentional or other; if I give mySELF the grace to have not been perfect; do I not ALSO have to give my father that grace? I know he would not have hit his kids if he wasn't sometimes at the end of his rope. (And mostly he was a good dad, and he truly loved us kids.) But I never HAD kids because I knew I'd be a batterer too. That compassion does not diminish the damage, but it throws off the hate and hurt and anger. ("Forgiveness" I think all-y'all Christians call it! {wink})

This, in NO WAY, provides any excuses for today's snowflakes and their micro-aggression panics... Being raised too protected to ever 'grow' an active amygdala is probably MORE life-damaging then growing one that over-responds.

Blogger Avalanche March 09, 2021 11:34 AM  

Please let me maunder on a bit further with: I'm still in my 60s, learning stuff. When Vox made clear that MZB's "Mists of Avalon" was unsettlingly pedophilic in places, that quite surprised me: Vox attributed that to me being broken (hell, I KNOW I'm broken, I just didn't think that book was a place for contrast-and-compare.) I copy edited "The Last Closet" for Castalia, and unlike so many here who responded with horror and even refused to read it; I recognized it as horrific abuse but not particularly surprising or distressing.

Hearing Vox's ("normal") take(s), oh-so-different from mine, on Moira's life - and being able to discuss with sisters and a couple friends the 'contrast-and-compare' work -- i.e., saying it OUT LOUD -- moves a bit towards fixing some of the damage.

Part of the damage of abuse, and especially sexual abuse, IS the *isolation*. The inability to 'say it out loud to another human' continues the abuse. If you cannot find an 'external process' then you cannot ever succeed in untangling that healing you suggest, wrongly, "only comes from within." ("Within" is where the biggest damage IS!)

Blogger SirHamster March 09, 2021 12:24 PM  

Ariadne Umbrella wrote:This, to me, looks like another type of way that college educated types prey on non-college educated people. The actresses on this one show were all pros from, like, childhood. Sarah Michelle Gellar has been working since she was four years old. She had to switch out of regular high school because she was absent so much from going to auditions.
The types who believe in class warfare are practicing class warfare.

Against the working class people they supposedly champion. Go figure.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 09, 2021 1:00 PM  

"so now wives are sex workers?"

Try reading again.

"Alright, there seems to be a bunch of opinions about an industry that isn't your industry. You are relying on media reports."

Quite the contrary. I pay no credence to the media, nor have I since before I began puberty.

"Citing ancient Greeks for morals is just lame. They also thought slavery was a reasonable thing."

They were right. You would do well to learn more about them before you pass vain judgement on a civilization that you probably still think often wore togas.

"There are divides, even on the sex work side. Saying actors do porn and act is like saying "Musicians rock and work at Taco Bell" as if they are the same thing."

No one said they're exactly the same thing. Stop emoting and read, or prepare to be treated like the child you're behaving as. Yes dearie, your butt-cheeks are divided on the back side.

"We have enough abundance that women can earn a living on their own"

Even women of European descent are on average heavily tax-negative. They cannot and do not earn a living on their own, modern abundance simply affords many of them the conceit of what they do not merit.

"without having to deal with a man if they don't want to."

Gov-daddy is still a man. Remember when you were trying to tell me I sounded like a feminist? Wake up.

"I don't follow the idea that all these women are whores"

And no one said that either, but you'd know that if you were able to separate your intellect and emotions enough to read what is being said. The outcome is that you present as stupid on this subject whether or not you are.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 09, 2021 1:01 PM  

We're well past the point where it would be accurate to say that the more things you say on this subject the more stupid is going to come out, Ariadne. It's a good time to stop following the sunken cost.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 09, 2021 1:35 PM  

"Mr. Epstein, who didn't kill himself, was apparently a great sponsor for bright, wealthy young women, introducing them to nice job prospects. Then he went and preyed on poor, poorly educated working class girls in Florida."

....I see you've never actually talked to any prostitutes, or anyone who knew them. Well connected girls from influential families aren't going to end up in the sex trade or as prey for predators of any variety. They have options, they have protectors.

It's always the poorer and often the more provincial girls who are going to end up in sex work or as prey. They don't understand the lay of the land, they have no family or friends around to help them, and what family they do have is far away and likely unable to swing anything for them. If they're impoverished enough, their family may very well be who sold them into it in the first place, in order to be able to afford food, medical care, or illicit substances.

It's the same as smarter murderous psychopaths picking homeless people to abuse and/or kill. No one's going to stop them, no one's going to care, and if the body isn't found it's likely no one will even know they've gone missing.

It's not that being stupid, poor, or ill connected inclines you toward these things, it's that they remove your other options and minimize your potential protectors, including yourself. This is what is meant by "vulnerable".

Blogger sammibandit March 09, 2021 8:11 PM  

I should sympathize with Joseph Whedon.(his real name) Cordelia's main complaint was the he "was mean to her." Her sudden pregnancy forced him to have to rewrite many of the season's scripts so that she could act standing behind furniture. He did this in a very gamma way. I like the thought of someone who proclaimed himself as a "male feminist" is now seeing all the women whose careers he created turn on him. I enjoy watching him suffer.

The fact that you know Joss' real name but not Charisma's speaks volumes of your priorities. How dare a fertile woman fall pregnant you say? You must not appreciate this is a normal thing that happens to business operators and they make it work. Oh why bother, we know whose side you're on and it's not Charisma Carpenter or Michelle Trachtenberg's.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 09, 2021 9:32 PM  

A.A., in all sincerity, thank you. This has provided a welcome distraction from arguments I'm actually supposed to be paying attention to.

So, Ray Fisher, a black male actor in the MCU universe, makes a complaint about Joss Whedon as a director. The studio investigates, then says it's all okay. That's about what happened with Sandusky, and the people who reported him.

Charisma Carpenter escalates this: she goes out in public, and details how Whedon treated her. She gives details: there is a production assistant who sat in on that "are you going to keep it?" meeting. Her statements can be verified, cross-checked, and so on. There's a chance she will never work again because she's making waves against a high profile director.

There is no upside for her doing this, career-wise. She does it to help a younger actor. Then she gets supported by the rest of her coworkers. They didn't go out in public at first. She is, obviously, brave. She's also verifying what Joss Whedon's wife wrote about. Heartbreaking essay, the wife wrote.

She is kind and humble: she compiles what other experts say on how to treat an abuse victim. She doesn't paint herself as an all-knowing guru. She's trying to help the next generation of actors.

Entertainment- movies, television and so on, generates over 720 Billion dollars in the USA. The automobile industry brings in 690 Billion. It is an industry. It does have professional working standards. Mr. Whedon has behaved very,very badly.

She is beautiful : I mean, look at her. She's 50 with a chronic illness. She looks amazing. I want to know what moisturizer she uses.

I don't know where you get your ideas about how the movie industry runs, since you don't seem to be a part of it, and you aren't reading about it. Are you absorbing information from the air like a salamander absorbing water from damp cave walls?

There are professional prostitutes. Quite a few of them make quite a good living in Los Angeles. There is also a porn film industry. They have filming licenses. It's not a big secret. If Mr. Whedon had wanted to sate his appetites, he could have gone to professionals. He didn't. That's a big problem.

Entertainment is basically a big temp agency on the actors side. Actors have agents, and managers. The agents and managers don't get paid if the actor isn't working. Harshing up your actresses so much that they quit acting is messing with someone's rice bowl, not just having a private affair.

Actors, ideally, have long careers. There are tons of shows each year. One that captures a loyal audience is great. Those actors build up goodwill, and then go on to other projects, and bring some of that audience with them. David Boreanaz has worked steadily since Buffy. Marsters has worked steadily. Seth Green has worked steadily. The studios want actors to keep working because the ideal formula is new actors+ one established actor> think It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. It spawns new stars, they are young and cheap, and the older one gets street cred. There's even contracts structured for this, for union benefits. Over half the Buffy stars have issues- PTSD, chronic illnesses. Whedon was wasteful of others' potential shows' profits.

From what I am getting out of this, he was also abusive to the crews. They are very hardworking, talented professionals. I haven't seen an interview with a crew member, but I also haven't looked.

Whedon has the talent to be amazing. He has the personality flaws to wreck it all.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 09, 2021 9:35 PM  

And while I'm at it, the poor girls in Florida that Epstein preyed on had jobs, teenage jobs. They were in school. He chivvied them into doing things.

The women he helped get jobs? Did he really leave them alone, or did he pull out the old trouser snake, and everyone of them is just glad he's dead so they don't have to admit what they did to get an internship? We don't know.

Did some bright kid at Interlochen try to "explore their boundaries" ? We don't know. It's not not a possibility.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 09, 2021 9:43 PM  

Oh, Av, what a horrible way to grow up! Hugs, sympathy, grief! My heart to yours.

Blogger Anthony March 10, 2021 11:08 AM  

Johnny's comment, early on, is important. Also, context is important.

There's no intrinsic reason to believe Brett Kavanagh incapable of what he was accused of, but the circumstances under which the accusation came up make it a LOT more likely to be fake.

For that matter, Christine Blasey Ford meets Johnny's criterion, and I'm pretty sure that what she said happened to her really did happen to her, except that it wasn't Kavanagh who did it. I'd guess that Blasey Ford still doesn't know who did, which made it easier in her mind to blame Kavanagh -in her mind she wasn't lying.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 10, 2021 9:07 PM  

"she compiles what other experts say on how to treat an abuse victim."

"Experts", some of whom were, judging by their advice, psychopathic witches or "male feminists" rather than any sort of recognizable expert at all. There's the issue.

Yes, she's a victim and likely still mentally imbalanced and emotionally damaged because of it. She has her excuses. What are your excuses for agreeing and amplifying the likes of "Believe people when they say, "This happened to me." Believe it the first time" where you ought to know better as a five year old child would know better from immediate experience with other children?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 10, 2021 9:19 PM  

"I don't know where you get your ideas about how the movie industry runs, since you don't seem to be a part of it, and you aren't reading about it."

There's a large difference between "Not paying attention to the media" and "not reading about it". Apart from that, as I have repeatedly pointed out, history, from a thousand years ago to yesterday, from Greek comedy and tragedy to traveling shows and circuses, wagon performance theatre to early film and on into modern film, shows the same patterns in the same places. Actors are not generally nice people, and the same goes for actresses. They're people trained and practiced in professionally lying at a very high degree of skill. Some of them learn to keep that under control, most do not.

Now, answer your own question if you will. How have you come to consider yourself informed on the subject, particularly when every argument of yours somehow finds its way back to only the particulars of this specific instance? It looks rather like you're a popular media consumer yourself, and not even a longtime observer in this regard.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 10, 2021 9:39 PM  

"The agents and managers don't get paid if the actor isn't working."

I think you'd find that many of them have different definitions of "working" than you do. What is a talent scout? What do they scout for exactly? How easy is it to scout for other things at the same time? If you're a really good scout, you can make more money, fill more slots, and make more connections by scouting people for their vulnerabilities as much as for their talents....

"he could have gone to professionals. He didn't. That's a big problem."

It would still be a big problem, just a more commonly observed and ignored one. It's just as bad, but the media doesn't care about things that don't readily fit together into what they want to feed you, so you won't hear about it unless you go and see it yourself.

Here's a small window on reality: Injured things usually didn't choose the first touch of their injury, and yet over time they tend toward viciousness and wickedness because of their inability to deal with it. Man is fallen, and of himself he can't get up.

"Christine Blasey Ford meets Johnny's criterion, and I'm pretty sure that what she said happened to her really did happen to her"

Considering the person, the incentive, and the moment, there's not a chance in hell. Maybe a different person did something of the sort two or three decades earlier. She knew perfectly well that she was lying, and she had a lot of incentive and support in doing so.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 10, 2021 11:06 PM  

I think I put the emphasis wrong: Epstein definitely preyed on younger, poorer women. I want to know if he confined himself to harming poor young women. If he did, that's just mean, and nasty. We don't know if he was free-styling his passions to all income groups and education levels. That's a different question.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 11, 2021 12:28 AM  

Um......I almost don't know where to begin, and I actually have a deadline tomorrow, and paperwork, and I have been putting it off for ages. So, really, genuinely, thank you for being a great distraction, AA. I am irritated and perplexed and that's just about the right mental state to be in, for what happens this coming up week.

Can we take this up another time?

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 11, 2021 10:26 AM  

Alright, one cup of coffee, then face the music.
1. Are we agreed that entertainment-film and television is an industry?

2. Prostitute and actor are two different lines on a resume. They might be on the same resume, but they are not the same thing. We agree to disagree about this.

3. Slavery. You are a fan. I am assuming you think you would be the slave-owner? I'm, just, perplexed by everyone who thinks they'll be in the top one percent, forever, for all time, and all their descendants, too. The Greeks ended up slaves to the Romans and the Turks, and they didn't get out of that particular bind until 1800s?

The Golden Rule " Do unto others...." That's revolutionarily advanced thought for most of the rest of the world. We teach it to little kids like it's obvious. That's just a level of social capital wealth that is like the fables of the seven cities of Cibola.

4. I said we had enough civilizational wealth that women could live without resorting to prostitution. I didn't say every woman earned enough to keep her cash flow positive. We have foodstamps, and WIC. Do I need to look up the numbers for those? We are a wealthy society with an abundance of all sorts of things. I could have cited universal literacy, or widespread car ownership.

5. Using Europe as a moral metric is nonsense. They had a static economy with elites that really put some effort into harshing up everyone's life. Sumptuary laws, for crying out loud. Using the current media as a moral compass is, likewise, nonsense. These are, in general, a group of people who think the Virgin Mary was a prostitute who had sex with a Roman soldier, lied to her husband and then gave birth to a fake healer/ political insurrectionist. Since they have a thing for prostitutes, fake healers, and political insurrection, it's kind of sweet. It's an astigmatism, though. They can't see virtue.

What was Nelson's quote about his soldiers? We have family men in the US Armed Forces, even at the enlisted level. That's different. Navy guys back when were viewed as homosexual disease vectors. We have perfectly respectable Navy veterans commenting here. Are you going to dismiss them ?

6. Saying entertainment is not essential. Neither are printed tee-shirts or lace, or cupholders in cars. All of which people pay for, and countries have businesses in. I point out lace because that's how Irish people were a little able to hold it together when their ag sector failed.

7. Counsellors and psychologists are not experts. Okay, if you are the arbiter of every profession and volunteer thing, Can I have a CPA license? I didn't do the work, but I'd really like one. You could give it to me, since you are in charge of deciding what is real, what is expert.

Charisma Carpenter is not claiming she is an expert. She compiled a list from expert advice. There are experts who are commenting on this thread. You might not like it in your universe of rules, but that doesn't mean they aren't experts in their field.

8. The West is an absolute miracle: we had the Tyndale Bible and the KJV and Shakespeare and Marlowe- this amazing abundance built on the high- KJV- and low- Shakespeare and Marlowe. We let Dissenters build machines- and we got the Industrial Revolution. France hated their Protestants, and didn't get into IR for another century, far behind England and the USA. We take the low and make it amazing. No one knows how, or all the details. We literally do not need to pay attention to the rest of the world's up/down codes: everything ends up UP here. Our former slaves become billionaires, thought leaders and President. That's pretty great. Their highs become our lows- there's, like, de Bourbon descendants who are call center answer techs. We have fancy kitchens, instead of grubby backrooms for servants. We have near universal indoor plumbing. Everything we get upset about is stuff that makes us more like the rest of the world, and less like ourselves.


Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 11, 2021 3:28 PM  

"Are we agreed that entertainment-film and television is an industry?"

Depends. If we use the older definition of industry it definitely isn't. Industriousness creates tangible things, entertainment doesn't.

For your number 2, it's a matter of public face/private face. Publicly, legally, by appearance, they're entirely different. Behind closed doors they're not so distinct. Yes, yes, some people stick to one or the other, however the proclivity for blending the two is much higher than with the vast majority of other professions.

"Slavery. You are a fan."

No, I am not. You also need to realize that we are familiar with as slavery had quite a few differences from the majority of what we speak of when we speak of slavery in ancient times. Bondservants, single generation slaves, etc. were common, useful both for economy and discipline, and not at all what we mean when we speak of slavery which we assume to be particular, necessarily involving manual labor, and of a chattel variety.

I don't think that me or mine would be the top 1%. It doesn't matter. I consider both sides of it part of the same dynamic that swings back and forth over time... everyone gets a turn eventually, and if you're on the bottom right now it's partially your fault. There are always slaves, we just don't like the word slavery right now so we call them other things. I'm not a fan, nor a detractor, it simply is and therefore it's better to learn to deal with it.

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed. Different people want and need different things.

"I said we had enough civilizational wealth that women could live without resorting to prostitution."

"We have enough abundance that women can earn a living on their own"

That would be your verbatim quote. If you had instead said what you are saying now, I would have replies:
#1: Why should they be allowed to live on someone else's dime? Only if they bear children, that's the primary point.
#2: Therefore any civilization that successfully propagates has at least that much wealth.
#3: Therefore we are no different in that regard from the past civilizations, else we would already not exist.

"I could have cited universal literacy, or widespread car ownership."

No, you could not, they would not support your argument.

"Using Europe as a moral metric is nonsense."

Using the heart of Christian civilization as a moral metric is nonsense? Then you proceed to say that Europeans are all Babylonian "Jews" in thought and action. Cool story, but retarded, and also irrelevant. I'm not using them as a moral metric, I'm using them as an observational window, and no one said anything about (((fellow whites))). This dynamic exists fully formed and apart from (((them))), even though I'm sure they take pleasure in perfecting it.

"That's different. Navy guys back when were viewed as homosexual disease vectors."

You're getting into reliably wrong territory Ariadne. They still are viewed as that because some still are.

"We have perfectly respectable Navy veterans commenting here. Are you going to dismiss them ?"

I'm one of them. Would you like your foot stepped on so it swells larger and you can eat more of it? I was there, there are still homosexual sailors and from my experience at a rate higher than the general population.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 11, 2021 3:28 PM  

"Saying entertainment is not essential. Neither are printed tee-shirts or lace, or cupholders in cars. All of which people pay for"

Pay for, like prostitutes? So whatever people will do is now essential and moral? You need to refine your argument. A lot.

"Counsellors and psychologists are not experts."

Even apart from this blog, it's well known that psychology is about the most statistically bullshit profession around, and that includes weather forecasters who specialize in forecasts beyond about 4 days, who are wrong more often than not. Reliably-wrong territory.

"Can I have a CPA license?"

C-c-c-c-c-c-credentialism. Guess another profession known for sexual abuse, even more often than movie directors? That's right, psychologists.

"Charisma Carpenter is not claiming she is an expert."

Incedentally, you don't have to claim anything in order to then say stupid things.

"She compiled a list from expert advice."

Yes, only the most media reputable and well credentialed experts. /s

"There are experts who are commenting on this thread."

And you're the only person arguing with me. What fallacy is this, we need a new name, appeal to silent authority?

Basic logic isn't hard, except apparently for you. Here it is, plain and simple: People lie and claim victimhood sometimes, Ariadne. Can you agree to that? If you can't we have nothing further to discuss.

"The West is an absolute miracle"

And apparently of no moral authority, according to you.

"Everything we get upset about is stuff that makes us more like the rest of the world, and less like ourselves."

Things like being retarded and automatically believing anyone who claims they were a victim? That's something to get upset about, particularly since it violates the standard that someone is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty which is a what? Can we say, w-w-w-w-w-w-Western standard?

We can even have both our cake and eat it too here, (((they))) aren't western so what use have they for the presumptuous innocence of our standards? They can be held guilty as soon as accused, after all, that's their own standard isn't it?

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 11, 2021 7:50 PM  

The article is talking about people in private life. It's giving guidance to someone who hasn't had that sort of discussion before, thank goodness. It isn't a guide for a police forensics legal team. It's so someone in private life can have a thoughtful, careful talk with someone that they care about, without causing damage inadvertently.

AA, thank you for the distraction. Today was an absolutely horrible day, and distraction with you didn't cost me money or calories. I don't usually argue along at all. Thank you for doing this, and having it be in the realm of ideas and thoughts, rather than appeals to authority. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 12, 2021 6:57 AM  

God bless with tomorrow Ariadne.

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