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Friday, May 07, 2021

Bill Gates didn't kill himself

One of the things that becomes clear about the success of Bill Gates with Microsoft is that it was by no means assured at many steps along the way. This is well-chronicled in In Search of Stupidity. The number of sheer coincidences and terrible decisions by competitors that were required for Bill Gates to become so massively successful with someone else's software on someone else's hardware platform were astonishing.

And remember, this is the guy who didn't even mention the Internet in his book The Road Ahead. So we're not talking about a supergenius with great foresight here. Now there are a growing number of signs that his success, like that of so many other ticket-takers, was entirely manufactured for him.

Melinda Gates warned her husband Bill against any further contact with Jeffrey Epstein after the couple had an uncomfortable meeting with the convicted sex offender, according to a new report.

Melinda was 'furious' at Bill's relationship with Epstein after the couple visited the predator's Upper East Side townhouse in September 2013, people familiar with the matter told the Daily Beast.  

The meeting proved a turning point in Bill's relationship with Epstein, after Melinda expressed how uncomfortable she was with the sex offender and said she wanted nothing to do with him, the sources said....

In March 2013, Gates flew on Epstein's private plane - the aircraft that has been dubbed the 'Lolita Express' because it was allegedly used to traffic young girls. Bridgitt Arnold, a spokesperson for Gates, told the Times that Gates was not aware that the plane belonged to Epstein.

In September of that year, Gates and Epstein met for dinner in New York to discuss philanthropy, according to Arnold -- possibly the same meeting attended by Melinda, triggering her fury. 

Just a few more of those inexplicable coincidences, right? It was just two fake billionaires who happened to be billionairing together. But if there is one thing we learned from The X-Files, it's that there are no coincidences.

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73 Comments:

Blogger Harambe May 07, 2021 5:13 AM  

Ever since I became a father, I get filled with rage each time I hear about child abuse. I was never in favor of it or anything, but now that it's a real thing I have to worry about, my instinct to rip and tear is triggered just thinking about it.

Blogger Dan in Georgia May 07, 2021 5:16 AM  

Read an interesting story about the only company officer not jailed after the Enron debacle. Near Enron's peak value, he divorced his wife and was ordered by the judge to liquidate his assets--100% Enron holdings--just before it collapsed.

There's a school of thought that Bezos and Gates (neither having prenuptial agreements) engineered their divorces in order to legally dump all their stock without being prosecuted for insider trading.

Might be a good time to get out of Big Tech...

Blogger Eugenius BEar May 07, 2021 5:25 AM  

This whole thing has the feel of "we need to remind Mr. Gates who is in charge in case he gets cold feet."

Blogger The Last Roman May 07, 2021 5:56 AM  

I wonder if Vegas is placing bets on how long Gates has left before he shoots himself three times in the back of the head.

Blogger Balkan Yankee May 07, 2021 6:46 AM  

This might be a case of the wife saving the billionaire from his stupid self.

Blogger Scientific Manager May 07, 2021 6:47 AM  

She was angry at Jeff? Maybe she's the problem and is now getting kicked out of the club.

Blogger RedJack May 07, 2021 6:52 AM  

If true, what next?

Blogger xavier May 07, 2021 6:55 AM  

Yeah it's always bothered me how coincidental IBM reps showed up at the CP/m programmer's house at the very day he incommunicado on a flight and then turned to Billy boy for their operating system for the PC. Or the demise of Wordperfect's dominance due to so many 'boneheaded decisions like not foreseeing Win's ascension over OS/2 and so on.

Blogger Shimshon May 07, 2021 7:11 AM  

@8 "Yeah it's always bothered me how coincidental IBM reps showed up at the CP/m programmer's house at the very day he incommunicado on a flight..."

That is the story that has been going around for decades but is not really true.

However, given Gates' extraordinarily privileged and highly connected background, whose parents were obvious ticket-takers, the official story of the rise of Microsoft from a merely prominent software house to one of the most preeminent (and for a time the most valuable) companies on earth does in hindsight seem highly improbable.

The Gates/Allen partnership has interesting parallels to the Jobs/Wozniak one.

Except...

Jobs had style and Allen had panache.

Blogger Shane Bradman May 07, 2021 7:26 AM  

I'm not surprised about the connection, but I'm surprised that it was revealed so easily by Melinda.

Blogger MarkyMark May 07, 2021 7:54 AM  

The X Files wasn't the first to say that there are no coincidences; FDR was. FDR said that there were no coincidences in politics. If something happens in politics, you can bet it was planned that way.

Blogger jkmack May 07, 2021 8:08 AM  

@redjack corn is in the 700's per contract, soy beans and lumber are going syraight up as well. Think arab spring, but in the west.

Blogger Doktor Jeep May 07, 2021 8:12 AM  

The only way we are going to break the reign of the ticket takers is for a generation of creators, publishers, writers, and other vocations to rise without dollar signs and fame in their eyes.
The "yacht with bikini girls on it" is a lame trope. Notably Gates, Zuck The Cuck, and Bezos never end up with that anyway.

This is not to say that everybody has to be an impoverished monk giving it all away -and in such case that which is given freely is worth nothing- but simply a recognition that if you really want to change the world with ideas and get rich at the same time under a system by and for the beast, the beast will not allow anything that actually improves the human condition, as a start. But beyond that, if you are not buggering kids alongside the cabal's judges, lawyers, politicians, and CEOs, they will crush you. They will use anything from Talmudic interpretation of the law to outright murder.

You dont get to be Bill Gates if you are not Bill Gates.

I'm wondering if the coming divorce experience might give old Bill his "road to Damascus" moment. Given the existing pattern, I wont hold my breath. Still, God has a glorious sense of humor such that I'm convinced He is a comedian. So you never know.

Blogger vmax71 May 07, 2021 8:16 AM  

@10. I'm not surprised about the connection, but I'm surprised that it was revealed so easily by Melinda

LOLOL. you are surprised that a pissed of leftist chick would be willing to destroy you immediately ( even if you are the father of her kids) without a second thought?

Blogger Damelon Brinn May 07, 2021 8:18 AM  

That is the story that has been going around for decades but is not really true.

It's indicative that a myth was created to attribute Gates's incredible good fortune on the IBM deal to dumb luck and someone else's mistake, rather than any special business acumen of his own.

Another sign that Gates was no great businessman: when Commodore licensed Microsoft BASIC 2.0 for its 8-bit machines, Gates asked for $3 per unit, but Tramiel negotiated him into a $25,000 flat fee. Considering the C64 sold around 20 million units, the difference ended up costing Gates $60M. And despite that massive setback, he still sailed right on to success. So very lucky.

Blogger Daniel May 07, 2021 8:19 AM  

If you think Melinda was upset by Epstein himself, you are crazy. She was upset to discover that her billions were not without strings...

Blogger SaltHarvest May 07, 2021 9:19 AM  

Henchmen are ultimately replaceable.

Blogger The Lab Manager May 07, 2021 9:33 AM  

Success indeed. How we did not end up with OS/2 instead of this monstrosity or some other third party OS's?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 07, 2021 9:41 AM  

Wasn't Melinda wearing an upside down cross necklace?

If so, she wouldn't get mad about Epstein.

Blogger RadixMalorum May 07, 2021 9:46 AM  

"In March 2013, Gates flew on Epstein's private plane - the aircraft that has been dubbed the 'Lolita Express' because it was allegedly used to traffic young girls. Bridgitt Arnold, a spokesperson for Gates, told the Times that Gates was not aware that the plane belonged to Epstein."

How do you fly on a private plane while not knowing who it belonged to? It's like they aren't even trying with this one.

Blogger Just So May 07, 2021 9:56 AM  

Look in your pantry and count how many of your cans and boxes are past their Gates Date...

Blogger Dark Herald May 07, 2021 10:07 AM  

"It's going to be bigger than the Personal Computer."

- Bill Gates on the introduction of the Segway

I think that says it all.

Blogger Jeroth May 07, 2021 10:08 AM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Wasn't Melinda wearing an upside down cross necklace?

If so, she wouldn't get mad about Epstein.


We know very little about their internecine conflicts, so I wouldn't be so sure.

Blogger Matamoros May 07, 2021 10:11 AM  

I've seen in various places that Gates is a Promethean - would explain a lot.

Blogger Ken Prescott May 07, 2021 10:14 AM  

Microsoft pulled out of the OS/2 project and IBM tried to go it alone, but it was about a decade too late for that.

Blogger Pytor May 07, 2021 10:16 AM  

So jobs should have poached Allen?

Blogger CarpeOro May 07, 2021 10:19 AM  

I really need to consider building a Linux variant pc for home use. The only draw back being the games I enjoy aren't particularly Linux friendly. At work presently and looked at a support link for Outlook. The picture at the top of the page is all Indians and I'm not talking Vox's tribe. I use to pride myself on being able to translate Indian tech support English, but lately I have to hold my breath for a few seconds to not lash out at them for how poor their command of the language is.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 07, 2021 10:28 AM  

RadixMalorum wrote:How do you fly on a private plane while not knowing who it belonged to?
He was probably wandering about the ramp at the airport, and thought to himself ``That's a nice plane, I think I'll get on and go for a ride.''

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 07, 2021 10:29 AM  

CarpeOro wrote:I really need to consider building a Linux variant pc for home use.
For a start, set up your current PC to be dual boot.

Blogger Azimus May 07, 2021 10:40 AM  

The problem here is that this particular hydra now has two more heads - I doubt that Melinda Gates will use her divorce-jackpot for any kind of meaningful good - so this is nothing more than a stock split for the forces of evil, like reorganizing a centralized division into two independent RCT's.

Blogger kmbr May 07, 2021 10:51 AM  

I think it's pretty clear Melinda wanted to get away from him now that she realizes most of us do not think he's this philanthropic, do gooding genius but a sociopathic, generational genocidal egomaniac.

Blogger Azimus May 07, 2021 10:58 AM  

13. Doktor JeepMay 07, 2021 8:12 AM
I'm wondering if the coming divorce experience might give old Bill his "road to Damascus" moment.


Anything is possible, but even cut in half he's still part of the chosen brahmin caste, and the losses will be made up in short order. I won't pretend to understand the marriage partnerships of billionaires, particularly promethian billionaires (but I repeat myself), but Melinda did not strike me as the "intelligent, pretty companion and distraction from the cares of this world" type of wife that one would mourn the loss of. She seemed more like the "scheming, confrontational, why-the-hell-is-there-no-money-in-the-checkbook" type of wife who is more along the lines of a Soviet Politburo spy-wife that one would be relieved is gone. So I have my reservations about this shaking Bill Gates to his core, but we shall see.

Blogger Black Robed Cleric May 07, 2021 11:00 AM  

I was doing a com sci degree in the mid 90s. I recall several instances in the industry news where I was stunned by MS's brazenly bad deals (in MS's favor), favorable court rulings, and winning via marketing.

The professor of operating systems told us the first day, "Unofficially, I call this course Bad Decisions Made by Microsoft. Related to that, you may code your assignments on anything in any language, as long as there is a compiler for it that will run on the Sun Sparc in my office."

Most of us turned in code in Java, C++, or Pascal. One guy wrote in COBOL. The professor was true to his word, and called in a favor from the College of Business Administration to get someone who could read COBOL to grade it.

Blogger PolitiCrump May 07, 2021 11:07 AM  

AC has pointed out a number of times that doesn't become a billionaire without being compromised. Just consider the propaganda about how these tech oligarchs just started from nothing in their parent's garage, created an amazing product, and were skyrocketed into fabulous fame and wealth. Stories like that are meant to vindicate the supposed "free market". But once you understand it's al fake, that they've been propped up to serve evil, you realize the sham of the economy for what it is

Blogger Barbarossa May 07, 2021 11:10 AM  

So, a guy worth $130 billion needs to go glad-handing fellow billionaires for "global health initiatives". Is that so? It's reported that the entire smallpox eradication campaign of the 1960s-70s cost $300 million. Even adjusted for inflation, that's less than $5 billion.

Interesting that the robber barons of the 19th century left behind very tangible items like railroads, churches and the schools that bear their names. Gates is going to leave behind a "global health initiative" and his name on a flight manifest. Makes one wonder exactly how much of that $130 billion is real. Oh, and what truly wealthy person just hops on an airplane without knowing the who/what/where? And that's not to accuse Gates of sharing Epstein's predilections. Doesn't seem the type, but it does go to show that he definitely isn't the sharp-eyed operator or visionary he tries to pretend he is.

Blogger Bigger Bunyip May 07, 2021 11:24 AM  

Apparently Bill was too busy cavorting with children to notice whose private jet he was on. That probably needed play well with Mel.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 07, 2021 11:40 AM  

"This might be a case of the wife saving the billionaire from his stupid self."

Doubt. Reads between the lines more like a case of her suddenly discovering yesterday that she always vociferously disapproved of Epstein... and Bill "somehow" didn't -- meaning they're getting ready to throw Bill under the Epstein bus.

Blogger Eugenius BEar May 07, 2021 12:36 PM  

@37 To your point, it also provides an opportunity to rescue and reframe the "Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation" as the "Melinda Gates Foundation"....so that most holy of all secular institutions can continue on its mission to save the continent of Africa and the rest of mankind.

Blogger Christina May 07, 2021 12:44 PM  

Dan in Georgia wrote:Read an interesting story about the only company officer not jailed after the Enron debacle. Near Enron's peak value, he divorced his wife and was ordered by the judge to liquidate his assets--100% Enron holdings--just before it collapsed.

There's a school of thought that Bezos and Gates (neither having prenuptial agreements) engineered their divorces in order to legally dump all their stock without being prosecuted for insider trading.

Might be a good time to get out of Big Tech...


This is what I think. These people are not innocents. Mel could give a shit about Epstein -- as long as his situation doesn't botch her investments. I think this is all damage control and a move to hide assets. The fact that both Bezos and Gates are going down this path in a relative short time, means there is a bend in the road ahead where they're going to face legal issues. Things we plebs can't see yet.

I trust Mel Gates about as far as I can throw him.

Blogger RonG May 07, 2021 12:50 PM  

It didn't need to be manufactured for him. The competition just made so many mistakes, all he had to do was persevere. IBM just treated the PC like a stepchild that was trying to murder their core business, Apple after Apple II decided that it was not for the masses or for business, Tramiel made mistakes at Commodore and then Atari, DR DOS was just too far behind and overpriced, GEM was afraid of Apple, Radio Shack was out of their depth, Coleco produced crap. Gates just had to stick to it and improve the product through iterations. It wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.
The winner may in hindsight seem predestined, but but in a series of fifty-fifty competitions there will still be a winner.
I speak as someone who worked in computer retail for a few years and tried many alternatives (Atari ST, Unix, Linux, BSD) as well.

Blogger VD May 07, 2021 1:09 PM  

It didn't need to be manufactured for him. The competition just made so many mistakes, all he had to do was persevere.

OK, Boomer. The secret is that he looked them in the eye and gave them a good, firm handshake, right?

Blogger Eugenius BEar May 07, 2021 1:09 PM  

@39 Don't you also find it slightly suspicious that the man now tapped to be the head of Amazon is any Ivy League graduate whose only prior work experience was in government intelligence and prior to that the internet knows absolutely nothing about him? And that Amazon's meteoric rise coincides with him joining the firm?

I think we all suspect Bezos is and always was a clown.....we just haven't found the photos of him wearing the red shoes....yet. You don't get to be the richest man in the world without taking a few "plane trips."

Blogger RedJack May 07, 2021 1:32 PM  

Yeah. Back home folks are positioning for high commodity prices. Gates own a lot of farm land too.

Blogger RedJack May 07, 2021 1:37 PM  

We has libraries all over from a robber barron giving back.

It seems all the wealthy dump their lucre into foundations that never seem to do much.

Blogger Angantyr May 07, 2021 1:47 PM  

Barbarossa wrote:Makes one wonder exactly how much of that $130 billion is real.

Indeed. How much of the "money" on the entire planet is "real"? One of the important tools of the Prometheans is the ability to create "money" ex nihilo which they can then use to wield power and influence all out of proportion to their actual numbers. And they don't really create much risk of hyper-inflation simply because that "money" largely stays in their hands and doesn't get out too much into general circulation. But it does allow them to throw millions of FRNs around to influence elections at all levels in the country. Think where we would be if we stuck with gold and silver as money - with the much more limited amount of money in circulation that couldn't be made out of thin air, the Promethean's influence would be much more sharply limited.

Seems to me that there is something or another about "honest weights & measures" in the Bible... perhaps God was trying to tell us something?

Blogger Akulkis May 07, 2021 1:50 PM  

(((Melinda Gates)))

Jewish women are very socially liberal.... With OTHER people's families, not their own.

Blogger Akulkis May 07, 2021 1:53 PM  

Jobs was a perfectionist. Gates has always been a thief and a grifter selling shoddy software.

Blogger The Observer May 07, 2021 1:55 PM  

It seems all the wealthy dump their lucre into foundations that never seem to do much.

It's a way of getting around the death taxes, amongst other things.

Blogger Akulkis May 07, 2021 2:07 PM  

DR DOS wasn't overpriced.

DR DOS cost LESS than MS-DOS, But Gates issued contracts to the OEMs if charging for a copy of MS-DOS on every machinе, regardless of whether it was installed or not. So, even if the end user wanted DR-DOS installed, and nothing else, they were still charged for MS-DOS in the price. So despite DR-DOS being about 20% less $ list price, the end user would have to pay extra for it, because the MS-DOS component of the price was included, regardless of whether MS-DOS was installed or not.

This, by the way was already ruled illegal when IBM insisted on bundling IBM operating systems on their hardware, even for customers (usually universities) who were installing their own OS immediately after the hardware was assembled and powered up.

Blogger Fatty May 07, 2021 2:44 PM  

The whole point is Gates got one of the best selling computers of all time running his software , how is that a sign of him not being a great business man ???

Blogger Andy in San Diego and Elsewhere May 07, 2021 2:54 PM  

Bill Gates had his Chinese honeypot, and now, Hunter Biden's honeypot has come forward. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9522591/Hunter-Bidens-close-relationship-Chinese-American-secretary-revealed.html

Blogger Eugenius BEar May 07, 2021 4:09 PM  

@50 You operate under the assumption the deck is not stacked and that free market capitalism is alive and well, smoothly running everything behind the scenes. The bigger point being discussed here is that we do not operate in a free market capitalistic society, just the appearance of one. Don't focus on Gates and his apparent accomplishments. He is an interchangeable, disposable part of the machinery currently running the world.

Blogger Eugenius BEar May 07, 2021 4:14 PM  

@51 As I read the article, I keep getting confused which one is Ho.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel May 07, 2021 4:28 PM  

Funny you mention the X-Files. My wife and I both enjoyed the series while it was on and it is now on a cable channel at night. It's interesting to see how the series has aged.

There's the tupperware styling of the early 90's Ford Taurus' that were ubiquitous at the time, the cell phones are exclusively phones and there are still plenty of public phones/booths. The computers, vehicles and limited communications now seem antiquated.

But the idea of a deep state shadow government with plenty of nefarious actors working to advance and enrich private interests through concealment, manipulation and diversion (Rodsenstein, McCabe, Strzok, Page, Lerner) and operated outside their stated mission seems to have aged particularly well, since its a fact of life.

Blogger SCBen May 07, 2021 4:44 PM  

Maybe the REAL reason for the divorce is the REAL source of the name MICRO and SOFT!!

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 07, 2021 4:53 PM  

The first rule of remaining in power: Ensure that as few people as humanly possible know what power is to begin with.

Blogger Canadian Warlord May 07, 2021 4:55 PM  

@50. Fatty,
Gates has a long distinguished history through his parents, explored at length by James Corbett in a documentary freely released. Eugenics, high-level connections at IBM through his mommy. Gates and Jobs are the re-branding of IBM and Xerox respectively. Even the MS-DOS tools, back in the day, were called "IBM DOS" - it was plain on the packaging who had developed all the DOS commands. DOS by itself going back to earlier versions got pretty thin - but then it was originally QDOS, "Quick Dirty OS."

Gates started charging money for what had previously been "freeware." He wormed in and got a cut of every IBM sold. Now he's selling anti-virus DNA software for diseases he may have invented - just like the software world.

Blogger Colonel Blimp May 07, 2021 5:30 PM  

Yep

Blogger Colonel Blimp May 07, 2021 5:31 PM  

Nah there's easier and quiter ways of getting rid of a wife

Blogger Colonel Blimp May 07, 2021 5:34 PM  

Amulkis, when are you going to learn, that is precisely who wins big in America. The one truly great thing about the movie There Will be Blood deals with this.

Blogger Colonel Blimp May 07, 2021 5:35 PM  

Spoken by someone who knew....about that pearl harbor thing...

Blogger SciVo May 07, 2021 6:36 PM  

Isn't it convenient that all these supposed billionaires (and quarter-billionaires) leave no estate for their heirs to fight over?

That's one of the loudest dogs that didn't bark in the case of Jeffrey Epstein (who didn't kill himself). A man who reportedly had to cum three times a day, like it was a biological necessity; with actual young, fertile sex slaves; and we are expected to believe that he has exactly zero children?

A half-billionaire's death is enough to have baby-mommas crawling out of the woodwork -- at least some fake ones, if nothing else!

He literally had his own private island. The fight over his estate should've generated massive headlines in the NYT society pages, and yet.. nothing. Total silence.

It has reached the point where if a very wealthy person leaves nothing for his kids (or even fake kids) to fight over, then I assume that none of it was ever really his in the first place. He was just a world-class ticket-taker and nothing more.

Blogger map May 07, 2021 7:27 PM  

"The number of sheer coincidences and terrible decisions by competitors that were required for Bill Gates to become so massively successful with someone else's software on someone else's hardware platform were astonishing."

Truer words have never been spoken. IBM develops PC hardware but...oopsie... forgets to build an operating system to go with it. Then, IBM relies on an operating system created by someone who did not develop it. IBM...the biggest software company in the world, with tons of connections, relies on some nobody kid to supply an operating system for them. Then, IBM loses an entire business to this kid.

The whole thing is absurd. Nowhere in the entire picture should Bill Gates be anywhere.

It's clear that IBM was required by TPTB to spin off their assets in a new "startup" the same way Xerox was required to spin off their assets for the Apple "startup."

And all along you have this fantasy about a bunch of kids building these companies in garages.

The question is, why was it done this way? The demoralization psyop started in the 60's worked too well. To get the new generation of young people working, TPTB had to create some new workplace environment to inspire the demoralized youth. Hence, the creation of Silicon Valley.

Blogger Beto May 07, 2021 9:30 PM  

Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai invented the internet.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel May 07, 2021 11:22 PM  

@27 @29

Noobs shouldn't attempt dual booting.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel May 08, 2021 12:15 AM  

"The number of sheer coincidences and terrible decisions by competitors that were required for Bill Gates to become so massively successful with someone else's software on someone else's hardware platform were astonishing."

Yes, as somebody who lived through Lotus' idiocy with 1-2-3, Symphony and Improv, I have often wondered how the hell this didn't understand that the last thing they needed was confusion.

Oh well, Mitch Kapor is a bona fide SJW.


"In August 2015, Mitch and Freada announced they would invest $40 million over three years to accelerate their work to make the tech ecosystem more inclusive."

Blogger John Rockwell May 08, 2021 3:12 AM  

If Gammas become successful it's very likely he got Promethean backing almost always.

Blogger Akulkis May 08, 2021 2:23 PM  

@Fatt,y, you are missing the point about underlying dishonesty which has been part of Microsoft before they even had a product to sell.

Blogger TruthsGotMyBack May 08, 2021 3:27 PM  

Gates was the original techno-larper. He never wrote MSDOS. He was the first of many, Zuck and Musk included, to whom secret government data collection and spy programs were spun into the private sector to appear innocuous and trustworthy. He is a role at this point, IMO.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 09, 2021 8:59 AM  

The Pitchfork Rebel wrote:@27 @29

Noobs shouldn't attempt dual booting.

It's how most of us started, back when we were noobs. It's a lot easier now than it was in the '90s.

Blogger Dex May 09, 2021 11:50 AM  

Divorce = avoid insider trading for divesting just like Bezos

Blogger Canadian Warlord May 10, 2021 11:48 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger John Regan May 11, 2021 8:56 AM  

New York Post yesterday.

It's not entirely fair, since it appears that Gates stopped the wild partying after marrying, even if it continued during the courtship. But there's a media lesson in there, too, where they bury the story to curry favor with a "news generator".

The 4th estate can't be trusted on anything anymore.

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