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Wednesday, July 21, 2021

Mailvox: tribalism wins

A reader relates a recent encounter with a group of Mennonites:

I am currently staying at a travel lodge in northern Wisconsin and there are 30-40 old school Mennonites, cousins of the Amish, also here.  The free self-serve breakfast room provides lessons regarding how the Amish likely will behave if, as speculated, they ever do achieve population dominance.

The Mennonites entered the room en masse and immediately occupied every open table remaining in the place.  Each clan had its own table and it did not matter whether there were two members or eight, they had their own table by clan and would stand beside their territorial claim despite empty seats being available at the other Mennonite tables. Spaces were reserved by laying objects in the conventional way.

Then the Mennonites formed an after church social barrier in front of the food supply, blocking outsiders from access in polite fashion while kibbitzing together in Swiss German.  The kids were all barefoot and roaming around, which dissuaded the rest of us from approaching.

About six old ladies commandeered the two waffle-making machines and began preparing waffles exclusively for all Mennonites.  They cast intimidating glares at some tough-looking brawny, sleeveless construction workers who attempted to stand in line for waffles.  Not gonna happen.

The men, who are noticeably trimmer than the somewhat fat women, helped themselves to all the food, making immediate return trips to fill up individual and shared plates for their tables.  This left only coffee for the outsiders.

No grace was given nor prayers offered, once the last old lady abandoned her waffle post the entire group began eating and the men discussed whatever Swiss German topic.  The food area resembled a war zone where the cockroaches would have starved.

Those Mennonites are going to do well when things fall apart. The rugged individualists should be fine, at least as long as they're out in the deep wilderness without any resources that these people happen to decide they need for their families. 

Notice how the supposed tough guys couldn't handle the old women. They could have unplugged the machines and refused to plug them back in until one machine was given to the non-Mennonites, but apparently they couldn't even manage to work together in that one simple regard.

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124 Comments:

Blogger Canadian Warlord July 21, 2021 11:40 AM  

There's a song by the "Hurtin' Albertans" called, "The Ford Got Stuck," which features commentary on the Hutterites. They make poor neighbors. That being said, they have a centuries-old agreement that lets them govern their own affairs separate from Alberta. This means they have their own power, utilities etc.

There are Mennonites around as well, they flood into Costcos in the city during weekends. Some of these communities have inbreeding problems, but aside from that, they will survive. They've been doing it for centuries, under Tsars and other tyrants. We're just another stop in their journey.

Blogger Taignobias July 21, 2021 11:42 AM  

I've noticed similar tribalism among Indian tech workers. Grouping together at lunch by caste/region/dialect, loudly conversing in Tamil or Bengali or Hindi or Punjabi, only tokenly allowing direct superiors to take seats (since ass kissing is an Indian cultural expectation)...

It seems to be a uniquely modern White thing to isolate ourselves among a sea of tribes. I wonder (((who))) encouraged all that?

Blogger Cappuccinobear July 21, 2021 11:44 AM  

Hmmm. So in group preference beats multiculturalism? Who else practices that, but on a global scale? I think they run banks, media companies, and pornos?

Blogger Unknown July 21, 2021 11:50 AM  

The Chabad Jews are just as bad. It helps once you realize they have a fear of body contact with the Goyim and you can give them the shoulder.

Blogger Johnny July 21, 2021 11:51 AM  

An organization of any consequence has to practice inclusion and exclusion or it will cease to function and an independent entity. That is, it will become only an idea, not an implementation. That is why our nation should have functioning borders.

I doubt the Mennonites pick up new members, but otherwise inclusion and exclusion is the fairest kind of punishment. The benefits of membership goes to those who stay with the rules.

Don't know about Mennonites, but the Amish out east are always at hazard of being bothered by pushy tourists, owing to their unique appearance and behavior. Hardly surprising that they seek to keep the "The English" at a distance.

I am not a fan of these cults, but individually they are friendly enough, but of course non members are always outsiders.

Blogger Harambe July 21, 2021 11:58 AM  

So Mennonites are just like modern Swiss-Germans

Blogger Countrylawyer July 21, 2021 11:59 AM  

Our Mennonites around here are a bit less traditional. I saw one driving a Cadillac Escalade the other day. I’m not kidding.

Blogger IamDevo July 21, 2021 12:01 PM  

I live in rural Pennsylvania, surrounded by farms full of Mennonites and Amish. The Old Order Mennonites are about the same as Amish, very clannish and distrustful of us "English." (In case you were wondering, anyone not a member of their community is "English," regardless of ethnic or national origin.) They will deal with the English but have no compunctions about sharp practices. They don't feel that cheating the English is morally culpable. Who do they remind you of? Hmmmm. Let me think about that.....

Blogger Doktor Jeep July 21, 2021 12:01 PM  

"Bosnia times Rwanda"
---Matt Bracken

Blogger Dag Andy . July 21, 2021 12:04 PM  

Agreed, very similar to the old believers in northern bc.
Hard folks, proud Christians and very tribal.
Good folks with no tolerance for stupidity or government.

Blogger Autarky Bear July 21, 2021 12:06 PM  

I think many will join them if they have the opportunity to marry into their clans.

Blogger John Wilson Bach July 21, 2021 12:09 PM  

"Regarding immigration... you don't want bedlam, but you are heading there."

https://johnwilsonbach.substack.com/p/your-door-is-open

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare July 21, 2021 12:23 PM  

I get that the old ladies are/were fierce looking, but...they're Mennonites. Pacifists. Get some darned breakfast for your families, for goodness sake! It's not the Hell's Angels.

That aside, God bless them for preserving their families and traditions. Don't get the pacifism, but they've managed to last this long with it, so it's obviously working for them.

Blogger Brett baker July 21, 2021 12:25 PM  

Typical Mennonite asshole behavior. They keep just Amish-like enough to dodge the draft, but not give up any conveniences.

Blogger Cwyn July 21, 2021 12:33 PM  

Depends. Tribalism only works if your side is huge and doesn't actually tick others tribes off. Ethnics aren't the only tribes either as con-goers prove. Folks will form tribes around work, play, social class etc. There are always more others that may be willing to pack together and glomp you (see all the Middle East for examples). Would be hilarious to see them try this around a bunch of POC ethnics or even certain white ethnics with big mouths.

Racists aggression and greed is common in the German lines, which is how, advanced or not, they got their clock cleaned by others in the World Wars. Their behavior tends to Anti-Christian, as there's no need for the level of aggression to be displayed. They behaved like ravenous wolves when they didn't need to, and this will earn them a reputation that isn't good among the others around them. They need to learn from the Greeks and other more gregarious and gracious peoples how to polity dominate without making the other feel the need to arm for self-defense. Feral black behavior is always stupid 100% of the time.

Blogger The Gaelic Lands July 21, 2021 12:51 PM  

Am surprised that they'd eat the GMO slop served. I've even heard that the Amish will grow GMO foods. If true, knocks them down the IQ tree for me.

Blogger MichaelJMaier July 21, 2021 12:52 PM  

This is good to know if I ever run into a large group of them. Be polite but brazen.

That said, when I see them here in Indiana, they seem very reserved but polite and well-behaved.

Blogger Nate73 July 21, 2021 12:55 PM  

Kind of makes me wonder what those towns in New York of orthodox jews on welfare are going to do.

Blogger van helsing July 21, 2021 12:56 PM  

just go grab all the fresh fruit and fight yer way out / hotels are serving continental or better breakfasts again? i was on the road for almost a month and saw squat...

Blogger Dangeresque July 21, 2021 1:00 PM  

Imagine those same tough guys who couldn't nudge their way to the waffle machine even trying to get their own wives to serve them at the continental breakfast while they go and sit down first. It would be a divorce generating event.

Blogger Newscaper312 July 21, 2021 1:00 PM  

Most of my father's working life was as a US Customs Inspector at the port here.
Back in the late 70s he went up for some training on Long Island in late winter.
Hotel they were booked at was doing some renovations, w part of the restaurant closed, and some overflow seating out back in a party tent. Half assed walkway of some boards thru mud and slush to get to it. Poorly heated.
Jewish owned, all the Jew guests were seated inside in part of the dining room still open. The dirty Goyim were seated outside.

Blogger nbfdmd July 21, 2021 1:03 PM  

Cwyn wrote:Racists aggression and greed is common in the German lines, which is how, advanced or not, they got their clock cleaned by others in the World Wars.

Really? Are you sure? Who's doing better now: Bavaria or England?

Blogger Gnecht July 21, 2021 1:07 PM  

I think each people group has buttons to push that will make its folks fold like a struck tent. The tough construction worker, or the observant Vox Popoli reader, just did not know about those buttons in this case.

If someone had told these Mennonites they're leaving an impression like this blog post describes, they would probably have been reduced to grovelling shame. They are trying to be what Jesus called "the light of the world," "the salt of the earth," etc. They want to evangelize by their lifestyle rather than by confrontation. Self-serving tribalism is almost certainly not the look they were going for.

But that hotel was probably a foreign environment for them, an experience like general-public Americans would have being at a traditional Japanese lodging for the first time as part of a tour group. No way is the group going to avoid crowding together with their own folks and leaving "Ugly $DEMONYM" impressions on the locals. Relaxing and fitting in just isn't going to happen, and efforts to do so would probably make even worse impressions on the locals.

Mennonites have many groups ranging from some less-modern than Amish to ones more-SJW-liberal than Episcopalians. Therefore, generalizations about Mennonites are near-impossible. I live in a Mennonite group somewhere in the middle, that drives cars instead of horses but doesn't have TVs.

Blogger Enjcj July 21, 2021 1:19 PM  

My tribe is the Benedict XVI is still pope and always has been tribe.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 21, 2021 1:25 PM  

"They keep just Amish-like enough to dodge the draft"

This is why I'm not convinced they'll do well. There are reasons to dodge drafts, particularly nowadays, but pacifism is a moral defect. Pacifists only survive in the shelter of non-pacifist societies.

If they can outgrow that decadence they may do well. If not, not.

Blogger Army of the Unborn July 21, 2021 1:26 PM  

They sound like assholes. I guess that’s what makes clan wars so brutal: it’s personal. If I’m faced with a hangry wife or a pissed off Mennonite, I’m pissing off the mennonites and stealing a waffle maker.

Blogger ghostsniper July 21, 2021 1:28 PM  

Remus Rule: Avoid crowds.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 21, 2021 1:29 PM  

"They behaved like ravenous wolves when they didn't need to, and this will earn them a reputation that isn't good among the others around them."

On the contrary, they use all the soft measures, such as unfriendly staring, that they can, because they can't do any more than that. A single ravenous wolf would have chewed the entire group up and ate them.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville July 21, 2021 1:29 PM  

@23 Can confirm, not all Mennonites are alike. I worked with one who wore normal clothes and no beard. Prince of a guy too. He was part of a big city "liberal" Mennonite church.

My wife grew up on a farm surrounded by Mennonites, Amish and Dunkards who would work as farmhands for the family. Each group had their interesting quirks. The Amish hands would drive cars that my father-in-law loaned them while they worked for him. Dunkards would own new cars, but they had not have chrome or radios.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 21, 2021 1:31 PM  

"Racists aggression and greed is common in the German lines, which is how, advanced or not, they got their clock cleaned by others in the World Wars."

Racist aggression and greed are what they learned from the Jews, who are still more virulent examples of both, and won those wars. Sit down.

Blogger Raker_T July 21, 2021 1:32 PM  

When my children were little, we got a cat. They didn't know much about cats, and one day they wanted to give it a bath. I said Sure, but I get to watch.
Another day, I took the cat to get altered at a low cost spay/neuter clinic. I thought the transaction at the desk was complete, then the gal says that there's an additional $15 anethesia charge above the advertised price. I laughed and told her to do the procedure without it, but to let me watch. She dropped the added charge but took up a grumpy face.
Annnnd soooo, about der beegk vwomen: unplugging the machine is a great plan, don't get me wrong, you're the best man; but first have part of the team the designated video guy. The might carry spare dough rolling pins in their purses.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 21, 2021 1:36 PM  

My takeaway from this is that if you want food, you have to be willing to smack an old lady.

Blogger michimartini July 21, 2021 1:38 PM  

I wish. The ones that stayed here in the old country are heavily cucked. Revival is our only hope.

Blogger RobertDWood July 21, 2021 1:39 PM  

If Merkel is your brag, you're losing.

Blogger Slippin JImmy July 21, 2021 1:43 PM  

In my experience once you get to know them, the Hutterites make great neighbours.

Blogger Slippin JImmy July 21, 2021 1:44 PM  

Mennonite girls make cracking wives

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 21, 2021 1:47 PM  

"If someone had told these Mennonites they're leaving an impression like this blog post describes, they would probably have been reduced to grovelling shame."

Doubt.

"They are trying to be what Jesus called "the light of the world," "the salt of the earth," etc."

While speaking entirely in their own language that is not used by outsiders. Salt of the earth, definitely, but not so much light.

"But that hotel was probably a foreign environment for them"

Which they aggressively dominated within their admittedly limited capabilities. Vox has the point that their pacifism doesn't matter if their opponents can't even rise to that level.

Your rationalizations are entertaining.

Blogger Balkan Yankee July 21, 2021 1:49 PM  

Wafflekrieg. We're doomed.

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 21, 2021 1:53 PM  

Am surprised that they'd eat the GMO slop served.

We have both Amish and Mennonites around here, and I'm not surprised. They buy as cheap as possible, which means they shop at Walmart like any other non-discerning shopper. They do grow a lot of their own meat and vegetables and cook at home, but I'd guess that cheap, low-quality staples like flour and sugar explain why their women tend to more plumpness these days.

The ones I've dealt with are friendly enough, but you never forget you're not one of them, even though genetics-wise I could be. The clannishness is strong, and good for them.

Blogger Attila is my bro July 21, 2021 1:57 PM  

Had the pleasure recently of being stopped at a traffic light behind 2 Mennonite girls (18-21ish) on bikes, dressed in their Mennonite garb. They were legit 8s.

I don't recall seeing many (any?) fat Mennonite women. They mostly stay at home so I never saw many anyway. I had no idea any of them were as good looking as these two I saw at the red light.

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 21, 2021 1:57 PM  

Don't get the pacifism, but they've managed to last this long with it, so it's obviously working for them.

It "works" because they live in places where hundreds of miles of "English" (rural whites) provide a buffer between them and anything that's likely to attack them. The kind of places where people don't just leave their doors unlocked; they have doors without locks. It wouldn't work so well if they had to live in Chicago, and won't if Chicago (or Mexico) eventually comes to them.

Blogger Nostromo July 21, 2021 2:00 PM  

They were "reformed" mennonites.

Blogger Nate July 21, 2021 2:05 PM  

None of this ever happened.

Blogger Rex Leroy July 21, 2021 2:07 PM  

The story is bullshit. It never happened. Mennonites do not act like that.

You know what ethnoreligious group both acts like this and projects?

Blogger Nate July 21, 2021 2:11 PM  

Orthodox Jews act like that. Experienced it myself.

Blogger Rex Leroy July 21, 2021 2:13 PM  

It's just another Ivermectin atrocity tale.

Blogger Rex Leroy July 21, 2021 2:15 PM  

Maier, you dumbass, why don't you believe your lying eyes instead of stories on the interwebs?

Blogger RobertDWood July 21, 2021 2:27 PM  

Just wait until the select baseball teams start hitting the hotel breakfast scene again.... Not only will they take all the good from the bar, they will leave it half eaten on all the tables

Blogger Black Robed Cleric July 21, 2021 2:34 PM  

A buddy of mine used to work in a bookstore after having served as a missionary's assistant in Germany for two years. A Mennonite woman came in with a gaggle of Mennonite teenage girls. The girls went to the magazine rack and were giggling and oh-la-la about the boys on the covers.

My friend went to the woman and said (in German), "May I help you find anything, ma'am?"

Her eyes got big and she turned to the teens. "The English understands us!"

They hushed.

Blogger Bearinheart July 21, 2021 2:37 PM  

Although I am not part of the community anymore, my family history is deeply Mennonite on both sides, although far removed from the cliquish Amish/Mennonite clans in the Midwest. My grandfather's family fled Prussia for the US in 1913 or so under fear for their lives when the Czar required them to fight in wars -- they were and still are largely pacifistic and war was anathema. The cliquishness described in the post is deeply embedded in the culture I knew. The common assumption was that any Menno's house was open for visits, meals, etc., often with no warning at all. It was just what you did as part of the insular community. There was no privacy among members, all knew everyone else's business. Gossip was and is currency and baked in. Today the Mennonites are social justice warriors who believe that Jesus would have taken up the cause if there had been the need in his day.

To the Laodicean Church: Revelation 2:15-17 "‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Blogger Nihil Dicit July 21, 2021 2:40 PM  

Notice how the supposed tough guys couldn't handle the old women.

Ifg a couple of hood rats had somehow "handled" the old women, would we be calling them "tough" or decrying their inability to co-exist with polite, civilized people? Because that's what these Mennonites are doing, just like SJWs do: manipulating most people's inculcated precepts of how social interactions are supposed to work.

By the way something, what would Menno Simmons say about such behavior? It certainly seems closer to Jan van Batenberg than any of Menno's principles.

Blogger basementhomebrewer July 21, 2021 3:01 PM  

This is good to know if I ever run into a large group of them. Be polite but brazen.

That said, when I see them here in Indiana, they seem very reserved but polite and well-behaved.


Anecdotal, but I have been around Indiana Amish, Michigan Amish and driven through Amish country in WI on backroads.

I can't say I see much difference between Indiana and Michigan Amish. Keep to themselves, but are friendly enough when you interact with them.

My experience driving though Amish country in Northern Wisconsin was different. First, we were the only car on the road. Every home we passed had women and children outdoors doing some type of chore, they all stopped working and stared at the car as we drove by. This went on for about 10 miles, every house the same. There was definitely more of a feeling of being an outsider there than when I drive back roads in Michigan or Indiana Amish areas.

I don't know if the Mennonites behave in a similar fashion there but if they do I would believe the story.

Blogger Jack Ward July 21, 2021 3:05 PM  

I also doubt the Mennonite story of the food bar. For one thing, if true, did they all stay the night before at the hotel? That food bar is supposed to be limited to guests. Thats the main reason I doubt the story.
Even back when I was staying a lot at Hampton Inns during travel, I would not use the food bar if not a guest the night before, even if I held their highest level platinum card for frequent visits.

Blogger Noah B. July 21, 2021 3:06 PM  

What's abnormal is a tribe seeking to deny outsiders tribes of their own.

Blogger Doom July 21, 2021 3:07 PM  

Meh. You missed a point. They won't defend themselves from physical assault. They depend on local law, who oddly they will call to do violence for them. But, in a shtf scenario, they will be as sheep before the wolves. Unless they change their ways, they would be crushed.

Actually, I think more of the Japanese. I... don't think I'd wish to be a foreigner, in Japan, in bad times. While they may well eat their own, their first priority would be to get rid of foreigners. And their meals would be an orderly affair.

Blogger GAHCindy July 21, 2021 3:08 PM  

If it's not fully true, it's truthy. The Amish in my dad's community do have a reputation for some inconsiderate behaviors. You English are, after all, going to Hell.

Blogger DeepThought July 21, 2021 3:08 PM  

Those who form close knit tribes will win the future.

Blogger pyrrhus July 21, 2021 3:09 PM  

Hard to believe...any normal man would have pushed through and gotten the waffles..who cares about old women glaring at you?

Blogger rumpole5 July 21, 2021 3:18 PM  

I was born in Goshen, Indiana, home of a major Mennonite college. Some of my founder ancestors lie burried in the Dierdorf cemetery adjacent to the campus. It is difficult to make many universal observations about the Mennonites. They range from buggy driving plain clothed groups, similar to the Amish, to "black bumper" groups that drive altered cars, to people indistinguishable from normie whites in habits and dress. They do have a reputation, in the Mishiana area, for being clannish and engaging in sharp practice with non Mennonites. The story sound plausible but certainly not typical to me. I am reasonably certain that if the rough necks had been more politely assertive, that they would have gotten their waffles.

Blogger Harambe July 21, 2021 3:19 PM  

Beware men with curly hair at a buffet

Blogger Duh-ave July 21, 2021 3:32 PM  

Not my Mennonites. I live near one of the larger Amish communities. Many Mennonites as well. Most all the local stores have hitching rails. Craftsmen from these groups are preferred. Their children are zero problem for our kids and teachers. Nate is right, this never happened. That being said, some of 'our' people don't like them. They say "Put a hammer in their hand and they're a carpenter. Put a plow in their hand and they're a farmer." No doubt due only to tribalism. No 'sharp practices' from them here.

Blogger Cwyn July 21, 2021 3:39 PM  

@22 Germany got worked over by post WW2 cuckery and it seems to be taking them longer to fight back than usual (while England has Brexit). But Germans in the states did not.

You do realize the Germans over in America and mixed Germanics are more likely to be lining up for the vax than the Greeks or Italians, right? And the more Germanic English than the Greek Welsh even though genetically they're 70% identical. German authoritarianism/aggression from the warrior culture tends to collide badly with the desire to reduce reality to a mechanical system in many Germans. They get blindsided by their own expectation of how things should be or are. That's why belligerence is a trait you see non-Germans mention when talking about them.

Blogger Storm Rhode July 21, 2021 3:42 PM  

Pacifism kept the best of their men from being world war cannon fodder. Wise way to be.

Blogger papabear July 21, 2021 4:04 PM  

"They want to evangelize by their lifestyle rather than by confrontation. Self-serving tribalism is almost certainly not the look they were going for."

Maybe those who market their Christianity through things like Plough.

Blogger Dave W. July 21, 2021 4:27 PM  

"Mennonites"?

Blogger Avalanche July 21, 2021 4:47 PM  

@13 "Don't get the pacifism, but they've managed to last this long with it, so it's obviously working for them."

Pacifism ONLY works so long as the aggressive tribes around you ALLOW YOU be pacifists! If the Allies or Axis had seriously wanted to take over Switzerland, they could have. At high cost, sure, but if it had not better served both sides to let Switzerland 'do' Switzerland, then they wouldn't have been allowed to.

If our forebears had not been willing to ALLOW the Amish to stay Amish and carve out exceptions for them of a variety of sorts... no more Amish. The Amish have even managed to become a burden on the taxpayers! Groups of they have become SO inbred, that a variety of bad genetic mis-strikes have become pretty wide-spread, so they now take advantage of medical and remedial care FROM "the English."

Blogger SIE July 21, 2021 4:57 PM  


I also doubt the Mennonite story of the food bar. For one thing, if true, did they all stay the night before at the hotel? That food bar is supposed to be limited to guests. Thats the main reason I doubt the story.

Even back when I was staying a lot at Hampton Inns during travel, I would not use the food bar if not a guest the night before, even if I held their highest level platinum card for frequent visits.

lol. Too much of a cuck to use a food bar because muh reasons. This, then, is the end of man. The day of the orc is at hand

Blogger Black Bird July 21, 2021 5:02 PM  

What a mess we had created of Gods created world.
He has already told us how it ends just look around and your seeing it.
With all that is happening I hear no one standing up and saying God’s judgement is upon us.

Blogger Walter von Bulow July 21, 2021 5:14 PM  

I visited Lancaster PA some years ago, and the young Mennonite women I saw were quite attractive.

Blogger Doom July 21, 2021 5:17 PM  

Storm Rhode wrote:Pacifism kept the best of their men from being world war cannon fodder. Wise way to be.

Pacifism works right up until you meet Zulu. Especially cannibal Zulu, or other. When English no longer arrives, with guns, after a call, all bets of pacifism are off. One way or the other.

Just as trad Jews are pacifists(?) in Israel, don't have to send their sons to war. Let the others fight for them. And, that'll work until the country is neck deep in danke ones. But they don't care, as long as they are last? Maybe find a way out? Whatevs.

Blogger Nate July 21, 2021 5:42 PM  

"If it's not fully true, it's truthy. "

You're an idiot. Its not truthy at all. Replace the menonites with Orthodox Jews... then it is completely believable. Menonites however are humble to a fault. They would rather let everyone in the place eat before than did than draw attention to themselves and insist on having their own way and making a seen.

No... this is a jew projecting.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 21, 2021 6:21 PM  

Duh-ave wrote:They say "Put a hammer in their hand and they're a carpenter. Put a plow in their hand and they're a farmer."
A middle aged man should be competent at both. That sounds like a complement, not a criticism.

Blogger soonercraze6 July 21, 2021 6:34 PM  

Remember Anabaptists fled Western Europe for a reason. They aren't tribal for the fun of it. They have been isolated for centuries. They certainly are not worried about trying to convert anyone like the evangelical protestants do

Blogger RedJack July 21, 2021 6:39 PM  

Nate

Depends on the group.

I know Menonites back home that were rather... well interesting. They were from a more relaxed group, had cars, and were very stand offish but polite to English (those outside their specific church). Some were as described.

Personal story. Because of their inbreeding, you see A LOT of Amish and Mennonites in the NICU. Some were very kind and humblbe people. While Little bear was their, my "neighbor" next door was a young couple whose son had some rather severe issues.

However, there was a group that would come in, take all the food and snacks from the family common area, block off the laundry facilities, and generally try to run everyone out.

The rest of the Mennonites did not like them either. Seems they were the strict group and were VERY unhappy their child was so inbred as to need the English to help.

But I will say this. They were there supporting the family.

Some of the other parent units that had kids there never bothered to visit. Which from what the nurses said was OK as they would cause problems.

Blogger glueballs July 21, 2021 6:40 PM  

No need to get huffy, fellas. I authored the original message and directed it to our gracious host.

It’s true and correct as I could recall the events from twenty minutes prior to writing it at 6:30 a.m. zulu. And I am a cranky b-tard in the morn, for whatever reason or lack of reason I decided to message Vox with my admittedly atypical observations regarding Mennonite behaviors.

(I’ve received the “anonymous” results via legal counsel – to preserve legal privilege re access -- from three genetic tests administered to me, and according to all results I register 0% ashkenazi. I suppose my DNA could harbor some other flavor of da juice but I doubt this given my known ancestry. Thus, I am not a j_w although I suppose I am comparable since I was raised Episcopalian.)

As a kid, I often accompanied my retired grandfather to Shipshewana, Indiana. Papa routinely purchased loads of unfinished Amish/Mennonite furniture for $15 per item, drove the van and trailer chock-full to his “barn,” and then finished and stressed each piece. He and Nanna resold the furniture for $250 and up per item to yuppies who would drive hours to tour the barn and overspend on the “Amish” furniture. Papa always had $20k in a thick roll along with two pistols concealed on him tail end of the 1970’s.

Nanna was raised Swiss-German Mennonite near Pence, Indiana and western Michigan. The family made its money starting farms, paying taxes in tree stumps and then selling the successful farm turnkey to new immigrants. They’d relocate 40 miles away and begin the process anew, leapfrogging across the country. Nanna and her sister of eight kids, my Aunt Faitha, left their communities to marry and raise children with “english.” (Papa was mixed Scot, three counties Emerald Isle and Northern England, both east and west.)
So I know a bit about the Amish and Mennonites spanning Pennsylvania to upper Michigan, my home state. What I described in the email message is accurate. The construction workers were all burly males, most ripped and sleeveless, buff and deeply tanned. They wore clean, quality work clothing and expensive sunglasses. Best guess they were brought in to build something for a military base or government installation, a new factory or transportation infrastructure. The old Mennonite pancake and waffle team ladies literally and almost silently intimidated the big dawgs who, I guess, fled to a truck stop. There ain’t much going on up there, which is why I was staying at a travel lodge in the first place.

Happy to answer your questions but this thread had slipped. Take it at face value and let’s move along. Nothing to see here except a lesson or several and you are free to substitute some other demographic for Amish/Mennonite. But they were actually old school Mennonites.

Blogger Unknown July 21, 2021 6:44 PM  

It isn't clannish, it's k-ntish. The Bible says to love your brother, not old women hog all the food to get more fat. Incestuous groups are punished by god as they deserve.
@15 yep they're cowards. Paper Ks. All we'd need do is drop salt from planes over their farms to get rid of them. Feral whites end up imploding during times of scarcity. We smelt and forge the metals for their tools at industrial scale. They are fully dependent with extra steps.
@25 they allow their wives to baby them, doesn't bode well, does it? Matriarchy, like Indians. Momma's boys.
@37 gluttons have had enough salt. Fat people aren't Christians. They act here like r-type blacks in the same setting, I've seen it. Just as brittle when challenged too.
@41 yep they're sitting ducks but very entitled, bad combo - Boomer women suck everywhere.
@49 America can't even enforce an official language of English.
@56 how do they figure that one out? English are Protestant, like them. All are saved by believing in Christ.
@57 threaten or torture one woman and they fold. Gang tactics win.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants July 21, 2021 6:55 PM  

All of my kids' family on their dad's side is Old Order Amish in Indiana.
You can learn a lot from these people. They understand tribalism very well and are breeding like rabbits.
In fact, the more extreme the religion is in America, the more that group reproduces.

Blogger Gnecht July 21, 2021 7:11 PM  

Various mentions of "pacifism" in the comments.

The ideal for people like these Mennonites is not "pacifism."

Instead, it is what William S. Lind calls "the moral level of war." They'd have different terms and Bible verses for it.

It is a different way of fighting. Rather than outfight the enemy, "take the fight out of them." Create a situation where the enemy can't win without becoming a moral monster in the process. As far as I understand Martin van Creveld, he says an effect something like this is how Vietnam beat the USA.

Does this method always "work?"

Well, some in the Anabaptist movement which contains the Mennonites have tried more violent methods during its history.

https://infogalactic.com/info/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion

https://infogalactic.com/info/Selbstschutz#Mennonite_units

And today they consider those folks like traitors and fools, while Dirk Willems is one of their greatest hero figures.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Dirk_Willems

Blogger Cwyn July 21, 2021 7:21 PM  

@30 One can only hope the fake Jew's time pretending to authentic jews is up. It's not hard to win a war if you aren't fighting in it. At least until the parties you pit against each other figure out you're scamming them. It explains why the Whore gets *all* the kings of the earth turning against her.

Blogger SPQRCincinnatus July 21, 2021 7:27 PM  

I've worked closely with one of the largest Mennonite communities in the South East. I was known as "Brother ". They are rightfully cautious about the world outside of their community and really do put their faith in Christ at the forefront of their lives. They also really took care of their community by raising funds for a project or sick individual. They were also extremely generous to people in need and traveled all over the world as missionaries into hostile territories (ex. China). They also give their sons inheritance when they get married, so their family can have a good start. Often a new family begins with land and a house at a minimum. I found them to be the most pleasant and decent people to be around in all my travels across the world.

Blogger plishman July 21, 2021 8:08 PM  

"Those waffles look great! Would you make a couple for me luv? Thanks!"

If they don't, or they ignore you, then you're within your rights to compel them to allow you to use the machine.

But it's just waffles. A missed breakfast may be a tonic for the soul, if offered to the Great Breakfast Maker in atonement for sin.

Blogger goobernpea July 21, 2021 8:10 PM  

I had to really sit and think about how I would respond to this post. On one hand I think that this is rude behavior from God fearing people. One would expect from those who have the morals of savages. On the other hand I have to admire these Mennonites.

Your average cucked western white males would rather let someone jump in front of their wives or children to avoid being labeled a racist. Their female spouses would gladly sacrifice their husbands and children to avoid being ostracized from social media. This is dangerous behavior because it will lead to your extinction.

The Mennonites, the Amish, and the like are not bothered with such thinking. God fearing people take care of their own. They're more concerned with protecting their young from the forces of evil and the survival of their communities. They don't care about social media, 401k's (I don't any of them have one), health insurance, fantasy football, the bachelorette, or the opinions of irrelevant outsiders.

Listen, I’m not trying to be hero here. Far from it. I need my health insurance, but I hate being nice to people I would never associate with outside my place of employment.
We in the west have giving up on the concept of any sense of community.

We believe that we have one, but your co-worker or neighbor down the street is not a community. They will not be there for you when the chips are down, and more than likely be willing to sell you out in a heartbeat. We have become so cow towed from the lack of community that we actually care about the opinions of strangers.

I sincerely believe if one of those construction workers came between those Mennonite women and feeding their husbands and kids, there would have been a lot of workers’ comp complaints.

Sorry for the long jag…….

Blogger Jose Miguel July 21, 2021 8:11 PM  

The irony, several Orthodox men I know "raided" the local Mennonites for brides!

Blogger A stranger in a strange land July 21, 2021 8:12 PM  

@53- Probably they did stay at the hotel. Mennonites and Amish do travel, as with other religious cults, they tend to do that together.

Blogger liberranter July 21, 2021 8:12 PM  

@44 Rex Leroy

The story is bullshit. It never happened. Mennonites do not act like that.

You know what ethnoreligious group both acts like this and projects?


Yeah, that was my first thought as well, based on my years of interactions with both Amish and Mennonites. I've never seen either group act as described here. (((Chosen ones))), on the other hand...

Blogger A stranger in a strange land July 21, 2021 8:13 PM  

@78 - So you're saying it's not principled pacifism, but a handy passive aggressive kind that also leads to a free buffet for the group. Okay.

Blogger RonG July 21, 2021 8:24 PM  

Where my family had our first farm was mostly Scot (Southern Ontario). They sold their farms to German and Dutch. Very few of their kids ended up farming. Now the whole area is mostly Mennonite. If each Mennonite family has 6 kids, and four of them stay in the religion, and the family purchases farmland for two of them, within a few generations the whole area is Mennonite. And the 'Old Order', who used to use horses for everything, are now permitted to used modern farm equipment and are now very competitive. They just use the horse and buggy for travelling as a family.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine July 21, 2021 8:31 PM  

"The ideal for people like these Mennonites is not "pacifism.""

They call it pacifism themselves.

As far as ways of fighting go, limiting your means of warfare is how you lose. You can claim that they fight in a different way, but it's not true. They fight in a lesser way.

"And today they consider those folks like traitors and fools, while Dirk Willems is one of their greatest hero figures."

When they are inevitably abandoned to people against whom their words and body language fail them, they will either become non-pacifist or die. Their venerable pacifist heroes will become forgotten revenants, and possibly loathed.

Blogger liberranter July 21, 2021 8:32 PM  

@ 66 Avalanche

If the Allies or Axis had seriously wanted to take over Switzerland, they could have.

Maybe,but it would have cost them rather dearly. You're confusing "pacifism" here with "neutrality." Two completely different things. This Swiss were not and are not "Pacifists." They simply choose not to take sides in other nations' conflicts that are none of their affair while arming themselves to the teeth to make sure that other nations' conflicts don't come to them. A VERY wise strategy that has served them well for over 200 years, one that the U.S. adopted in its infancy and, had we kept it, would probably have kept us from descending into the abyss where we are now.

Blogger eclecticmn July 21, 2021 8:40 PM  

@66. AvalancheJuly 21, 2021 4:47 PM

Pacifism ONLY works so long as the aggressive tribes around you ALLOW YOU be pacifists!



Orwell commented on that. Pacifists fled the Nazis in Europe and hid behind British boys who would fight to defend them. He also noted that Ghandi's non violence only worked because of the decency of the British in India.

Blogger eclecticmn July 21, 2021 8:49 PM  

@18. Nate73July 21, 2021 12:55 PM
Kind of makes me wonder what those towns in New York of orthodox jews on welfare are going to do.


I live in MN and never heard of this. Interesting. I had heard of Orthodox Jews moving into a small town, taking over the local govt/school board, and defunding the schools, leaving more money to send their children to private schools.

Blogger papabear July 21, 2021 8:54 PM  

@75 Thanks.

Blogger tublecane July 21, 2021 9:07 PM  

@IamDevo-

The “sharp practices” thing is an endemic problem of modern civilization, including the American version. Cabals, including and especially ethic ones, tend to think it makes us weak. And definitely we are vulnerable. Especially when we no longer snap back and put cabals back in line. Or at least in check. As we used to in the bad old days. (When was the last time you formed a posse?)

The thing is that our society is built upon dealing properly with strangers. Theirs is not. Definitely not. Exact opposite, in fact. The way of life for abal within our civilization is to deal with people they know. Everyone else is either a shark or a mark.

Why aren’t we like them? Well, for one thing with modern civilization cones specialization and all the wonderful things we’re able to do that are not tilling fields and breeding.

On the other hand, we forget our roots and lose our belief in anything but making ourselves feel good. Which ain’t the best way to live.

Blogger tublecane July 21, 2021 9:16 PM  

@Gnecht-

The “Ugly American” stereotype is of ignorance of local custom, selfishness, and pushiness. If they move in packs, they will of course also stick together. But you will see nothing of the coordination and deliberated group action as with cabals like Mennonites.

Ugly Americans in Japan won’t coordinate themselves or exploit their hosts with such with such precision. There’s would be more like the performance of a bull in a china shop.

Blogger Hbogbinder July 21, 2021 9:35 PM  

Story made me think of the 50s sci-fi novel "The Long Tonorrow". After a nuclear war, the Menonites end up running the remmant US. Other survivors convert to the religion since the Menonites are the only community with the chops to survive in a detechnologized society.

Blogger Lee July 21, 2021 10:15 PM  

Yeah, THAT happened...

Blogger Cobblestone July 21, 2021 10:56 PM  

The Mennonites, the Amish, and the like are not bothered with such thinking. God fearing people take care of their own. They're more concerned with protecting their young from the forces of evil and the survival of their communities. They don't care about social media, 401k's (I don't any of them have one), health insurance, fantasy football, the bachelorette, or the opinions of irrelevant outsiders.

You don't know what you're talking about. For one, the mennonites have plenty of people who use social media. The amish not so much, but the more time goes by, the more concessions they make to using electrical technology. For all we know its just a matter of time before they formally allow cellphones.

Never forget also the Amish's disdain for photographs and being photographed. They not only don't appreciate being photographed, but they forbid their people from having devices that take photos and videos. That should start ringing alarm bells in your head. We all know police officers are up to no good when they go after citizens who take videos of them. The amish have been WAY ahead of the game on that one, and you're thinking they're just God-fearing people who want to take care of their own? Think again.

If you knew about the genetic issues with inbreeding that Amish people have, the words God-fearing probably aren't what spring to mind. Rumspringa may also give you second-thoughts, as they freely allow their children to indulge in sin and debauchery for a time during their late-teen years. No God-fearing parent would find such sinful negligence permissible.

Btw, I'm not mad at you. I just hate it when people speak so fondly of the Amish or Mennonites. There's this idea that they're just a bunch of nice Christians who are closer to God because of their simple way of living. That's a bogus lie. The Amish especially are delusional, legalistic, gossiping, petty, hygienically and socially impaired people. The fewer of them the better.

Blogger John Rockwell July 21, 2021 11:06 PM  

As Jose said. That means that when other groups turn on them. I bet their pretty women would get carried off as spoils of war after the rest of them are killed.

Pacifism will be history.

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare July 21, 2021 11:07 PM  

Yes, pacifism is a selfish, dangerous ideology to hold. It only works if someone who is *not* pacifistic is willing to do violence on your behalf.

But the Mennonites have managed to convince enough people to do that for long enough that they're still around, and reproducing. And such doctrines tend to change with sufficient pressure, especially when there's lots of young people involved who decide they'd like to defend their wives and children in the midst of a future collapse of civilization. I just don't understand how someone could want to live like that in the first place. It's...alien to me.

Blogger Duh-ave July 21, 2021 11:11 PM  

@72 That was a quote from a person who dislikes Amish for no particular reason. It would be a slow learner that was not skilled at both jobs well before middle age. Their kids do on the job training much younger than the Federally mandated age of 18. I've seen them fencing a field unsupervised in their mid teens. These are a hands on people.

Blogger Nate73 July 21, 2021 11:32 PM  

@91: The person who told me was an orthodox jew from New Jersey. He said everyone in his town was on welfare and had 10 kids or something. I tried searching around and I think this town is similar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York#Demographics

Blogger spyfox July 22, 2021 1:34 AM  

Have a listen to the Dan Carlin podcast episode 48 "Prophet of Doom" A wild story of the history of the anabaptist movement (mennonites, amish and Hutterites)

Blogger Colonel Blimp July 22, 2021 2:05 AM  

Yep. I was just in Holmes County, Ohio. Thousands of them. Not pushovers but 0 aggression. And I understand its a bit touristy but everyone, Amish or Mennonite, were polite, if a bit odd.

Blogger Gettimothy July 22, 2021 5:57 AM  

this episode is illustrates the tension between E.M.Jones posution that "White Identity is a 'false" identity" abd Kevin Mac Donalds' (and others) assertion that Whiteness is a thing/identity.

Clearly Whitenesd is subsumed by tribalism, yet, bring in some Detroit vibrancy to that breajfast bar and White will subsume the Mennonite/English identities.

Blogger North Country Dairyman July 22, 2021 8:57 AM  

I have lived next to the Amish for two decades and have also had dealings with Mennonites over the years. And though they have their good and bad members, they are generally polite and generous people. I see that they are cautious of outsiders. But from my experience they are very decent people. I suspect the above story is an irresponsible exaggeration.

Blogger Raker_T July 22, 2021 9:28 AM  

From what I understand:
They're not pacifists, they're non-resistant. A pacifist will engage in non violent resistance, like MLK. Some decades back, the Lutherans went to court against the IRS to get an Amish farmer's horse back. They're also known as plain people. If a guy has pinstripes on his shavs, he's walking on the wild side.

Blogger Darren July 22, 2021 10:20 AM  

@Doktor Jeep
Bracken's math formula might need to now end with "to the power of South Africa"

Blogger Darren July 22, 2021 10:25 AM  

@Azure Amaranthine
"Sheep in wolves' clothing"?

Blogger Darren July 22, 2021 10:49 AM  

@Hbogbinder
https://infogalactic.com/info/The_Long_Tomorrow_(novel)

Interesting.

Blogger Nate73 July 22, 2021 11:49 AM  

@102: Apparently the forerunners of the Mennonites, Amish, and Hutterites were called Anabaptists and some did try to engage in violence. But after it was ruthlessly put down they met in 1535 and decided "the time had not yet come" to use force against non-believers. I guess one way to look at it is that non-violence was the best strategy for living in European societies... but they'll rapidly switch if forced to live in non-European ones.

Blogger NateM July 22, 2021 12:24 PM  

"I myself dabbled in pacifism. Not in Nam of course.."

Blogger Gnecht July 23, 2021 12:02 PM  

Mennonites and Amish, inbreeding and genetics:

The Amish have a gene pool similar to Iceland's.

Both are or have been relatively closed groups that today number between 300,000 and 400,000 people, descended from a small founding population.

If it is felt that Iceland will be OK for genetic risks of inbreeding, why would the Amish not be OK as well?

Perhaps there is a case to be made that Viking explorers in the AD 800s were a founding stock superior to Swiss Alpine farmers in the AD 15-1600s. I am unqualified to make claims either way on that. I expect it depends what values a society wants to optimize for.

Or maybe there's a case that Icelandic women go for abortions as soon as anything seems amiss with a pregnancy, and genetic problems would be less apparent there as a result. It looks like CBS did a story on this about Down's Syndrome, and Iceland's government felt compelled to issue a face-saver clarification.

Blogger Gnecht July 23, 2021 12:05 PM  

About Mennonites practicing their peacemaking tradition in a hostile society:

There is a Sun Tzu quote that says "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

That's the effect Mennonites are ideally going for. There are historical and current examples of success with this. Although many of them would define "success" to include martyrdom. Maybe like The Alamo, where yes it was a defeat on one level, but leaves many folks aspiring to be man enough to die like that.

Since a reference to a nasty invading army like the Nazis seems obligatory on this topic, here's the story about the British channel island of Sark that emerged unbroken from 5 years of Nazi occupation. Violent resistance would have got the Sark folks summarily wiped off the map.

"
How the World’s Only Feudal Lord Outclassed the Nazis to Save Her People

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/559912/dame-sybil-hathaway-sark-feudal-lord-outclassed-nazis-ww2

When Germany invaded the Isle of Sark—the last foothold of feudalism in the western world—Dame Sibyl Hathaway protected her people with the unlikeliest of weapons: Feudal etiquette, old-world manners, and a dollop of classic snobbery.
"

But perhaps that example doesn't really address the hostile-society question. After all, Dame Sibyl Hathaway there was working through the occupiers' German aristocracy values to allow Sark's society to survive. Maybe the Wehrmacht is not enough of a law-of-the-jungle kill-or-be-killed test case.

How about the hinterlands of Nicaragua, then? Where the crime is organized and the law enforcement is often compromised and ineffective? Where Contras vs Sandinistas has not been forgotten?

An Amish-Mennonite man named Pablo Yoder grew up and lives there, since moving with his parents as a child of missionaries. He helps with church planting efforts in undeveloped rural areas of Nicaragua. He used to keep count of how many times his household had armed robberies, but felt convicted to stop counting after it reached 40.

Many of his neighbors who tried to defend themselves from the robbery gangs are now dead. Unless living in a bunker, sooner or later the gang's going to get its chance for revenge.

Pablo and his family lived through it and emerged stronger in their faith. "If it weren't for nonresistance, I would not be here today," he says.

Sometimes people ask rhetorical questions like, "What if a man comes to your house to rape your wife or daughters? Will you be nonresistant then?" Mr. Yoder does not speculate on these issues since he has experienced the answer.

He tells his story here:

https://www.sattlercollege.org/blogs/pablo-yoder

That place has a video of a talk he gave, and a text summary for folks who prefer that.

Blogger Gnecht July 23, 2021 12:08 PM  

I have a deep patience for explaining about Amish and Mennonites. But a basic overview of how they got the way they are since their origins in 1525 takes about 3,000 words, and I know the folks here despise walls of text. Perhaps I've already overstayed my welcome.

I'd like to leave one takeaway point: any time you come across Amish or Mennonites, be reminded that it IS possible to live out the Christian life as an entire society today, resisting the influence of what's called GloboHomo here and "The World" in their setting.

There have been numerous mentions of cabals, tribes, etc in this article's comments.

I think most Amish and Mennonites are absolutely 100% in favor of everyone here helping form such a strong-group society, with coordination superpowers, from their own true cultural heritage independent of whatever values Hollywood or Madison Avenue or academia put out.

In fact, many of them are deeply bothered that they have been so unsuccessful in sharing their best stuff with other cultures. Here is one fellow's expression of this:

"
Most kingdom Christian churches are primarily composed of people from a similar ethnic/religious heritage. I and the others who participate in the Church Planters Forum believe that God wants to establish kingdom Christian churches all across this continent that represent a cross section of the local population. We can't guarantee that our efforts will be successful, but we would at least like to die trying.

Please join us in praying that the Lord will send laborers into this harvest field. If you share this burden and want to compare notes or get involved, we would be glad to hear from you.
"

His contact info is contained in this PDF where he explains the values Amish and Mennonites have built their communities on, including some that are dysfunctional and cautionary tales of what not to do. In the process of nearly 500 years, these folks have made most every mistake imaginable and beyond.

https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/CPF-Overview-of-Values-by-Ernest-Eby.pdf

He has lots more info at the website containing that PDF. If a group of not-Mennonite people took him up on that offer, there's a good chance Mennonites could soon be learning from that group about what a strong Christian society should look like today.

Blogger Cobblestone July 23, 2021 2:52 PM  

There have been numerous mentions of cabals, tribes, etc in this article's comments.

I think most Amish and Mennonites are absolutely 100% in favor of everyone here helping form such a strong-group society, with coordination superpowers, from their own true cultural heritage independent of whatever values Hollywood or Madison Avenue or academia put out.


Except for when they excommunicate you for driving a car, of course. Or maybe some super legalistic brother tests the church's unity by raising a ruckus over women wanting to wear sandals without socks. Or maybe the elders suspect anyone who isn't 40 years old and married with 6-7 kids of being up to no good as a rule and sow the seeds of resentment in their next generation. Not to mention being suspected of being evil should you ever become financially successful enough to graduate out of church-mouse levels of poverty.

The amish and the mennonites aren't the least bit interested in coordinating with anyone. People like you keep imagining them to be something they're not- an ideal society of well-meaning good-guys who are waging a culture war. They're nothing like that. They're cloistered people who would look at you like you're a crazy person if you suggested, "Hey, wanna join forces with us Baptists and Catholics and form a strong-group society?" They're not the least bit interested in that.

They just want to be left alone to live their weird lives. They can barely hold their own congregations together for crying out loud. They aren't going to save anybody.

Blogger Gnecht July 23, 2021 5:53 PM  

I am a member of a Mennonite community. I would like to think I am not imagining very much. I am fully aware that I am probably in a Revelation 3 "Sardis" church, which was instructed to strengthen the things that remain and are ready to die. We've done what we knew to do, the results are what you see, from the Reidenbachers to Mennonite Church USA. We invite you to beat us at this game. Can you suggest a society extant in today's world we could use as a model for reform?

Joining forces with Baptists and Catholics, I agree that is not going to happen. The differences are probably too far developed. One group or the other would be the "owner" of any such effort, with the other feeling like it's not really "theirs."

Rather, how about separate strong-group societies with mutual respect and good host/guest relationships when in each others' space.

Blogger Cobblestone July 23, 2021 10:05 PM  

I am a member of a Mennonite community. I would like to think I am not imagining very much.

And Roman Catholics imagine they're not leaving their children vulnerable to pedophiles in their denomination. Self-delusion is a powerful thing.

We invite you to beat us at this game. Can you suggest a society extant in today's world we could use as a model for reform?

Dude, no one has even heard of you guys. Besides that, it proves nothing at all. There are anti-Christian religious groups that stretch back further than anything you guys have come up with. Muslims for, example, have very thick, culturally strong groups that stretch back way further than Mennonites or the Amish. Does that mean we emulate their model? Of course not. All that proves is that mankind is stubbornly set in his wicked ways. If the Amish or Mennonites have adopted a sinful lifestyle, and they have, then we don't emulate their model either, no matter how determined they are to perpetuate it.

Joining forces with Baptists and Catholics, I agree that is not going to happen. The differences are probably too far developed. One group or the other would be the "owner" of any such effort, with the other feeling like it's not really "theirs."

Which only proves that Mennonites aren't the culture warriors you say they are. BTW, I understand not cozying up to Catholics, but Mennonites and Amish people don't coordinate with anyone. They value and preach seclusion and shunning. Then they get bothered when, in your words, that, "they have been so unsuccessful in sharing their best stuff with other cultures." Gee, I wonder why!

Rather, how about separate strong-group societies with mutual respect and good host/guest relationships when in each others' space.

So live and let live, right? That would be nice if only evil people would let us. They won't, obviously, but the Amish and the Mennonites don't give a darn. Why care about that when one of your flock dares to commit the vile sin of buying a car or listening to music with a drum beat?

Blogger Gnecht July 24, 2021 10:07 AM  

Am I then correct to assume that you or someone close to you has had a bad experience in an Amish or Mennonite community? If so, I am sorry.

Otherwise, how could you know so much about the problems of a society no one has heard of?

Blogger Cobblestone July 24, 2021 1:27 PM  

You specified that you're a member of a Revelation 3 "Sardis" church, and then challenged me to find a better model. If your church is so obscure that no one but you and maybe a handful of people even know about it, then your model is obviously ineffective. But even if it weren't, again, it proves nothing. You don't need personal experience with the Amish or Mennonites to figure that out.

Blogger Gnecht July 24, 2021 3:58 PM  

Cobblestone wrote:If your church is so obscure that no one but you and maybe a handful of people even know about it, then your model is obviously ineffective. But even if it weren't, again, it proves nothing.

Apologies, I am struggling to understand this. If a church was NOT obscure, and/or was NOT ineffective, it would still prove nothing?

What were you wanting proved?

And what would you accept as proof?

A very recurring theme on this blog is "build your own platforms." The Amish and Mennonites have expanded that to "build your own society."

"If you don't like the government, you're out of luck. But you and your whole community don't like the government, you can organize your internal relations however you want."
--Scott Alexander, Slate Star Codex blog, "Legal Systems Very Different Than Ours"

Okay, that says internal relations. What about external ones? Sometimes that does get rough. In the 1960s and 70s, there were Amish dads doing jail time rather than send their children to public school. Eventually Wisconsin v. Yoder happened, "The case is often cited as a basis for parents' right to educate their children outside of traditional private or public schools."

The "build your own society" project is a tough one. This is earth, not heaven. And human beings, not angels. Humans gonna human. Out of a population of hundreds of thousands, there will be people with major moral failures at some point. And there will always, always, always, from AD 1525 to the present, be a Smart Person somewhere saying "Oh (facepalm) no, you're doing everything all wrong."

Well then, please show us how it's done. We'll be cheering you on.

The way the world's going, sooner or later everyone will be faced with this choice:

(A) Compromise your values to remain in mainstream culture

(B) Make a clean break with mainstream culture in order to maintain your values

In my community, that "clean break" moment happened in 1893. What happens next is this: if you don't want mainstream culture, you have to decide what you want instead. We're still trying to figure that out. The Bible doesn't provide exact details on how to process the social changes since the Industrial Revolution, and nobody likes "man made rules." Not even many (not all, to be fair) of the Mennonites and Amish. They just like mainstream cultural influences even less.

Blogger Cobblestone July 24, 2021 10:38 PM  

nobody likes "man made rules." Not even many (not all, to be fair) of the Mennonites and Amish. They just like mainstream cultural influences even less.

If you truly believe that, then you're not qualified to speak for them, as the vast majority of them clearly do treasure their man-made rules, even equating them with God's law.

Blogger MrNiceguy July 25, 2021 8:58 AM  

Old joke among Mennonites:
How many Mennonites does it take to change a lightbulb?
"Oh no, don't trouble yourself. I'll just sit here in the dark."

Blogger Gnecht July 26, 2021 3:02 PM  

Cobblestone wrote:If you truly believe that, then you're not qualified to speak for them, as the vast majority of them clearly do treasure their man-made rules, even equating them with God's law.

I hear it from my own church leaders. They remember past generations where much less was needed to maintain their community standards.

Leader reads community standards document from 1930s: takes 45 seconds

Then reads community standards document from present-day: takes 45 minutes

They hate this. If you don't understand what's going on with that, then let a non-Mennonite explain it.

Imagine that Tibet wants to protect its traditional drink of yak's milk. The Dalai Lama requests that everyone continue to drink yak's milk. But Coca-Cola tastes much better than yak's milk, and everyone knows this. So it becomes a coordination problem: even if individual Tibetans would prefer that their neighbors all drink yak’s milk to preserve the culture, they want to drink Coca-Cola. The only way yak’s milk stays popular is if the Dalai Lama bans Coca-Cola from the country.

But westerners aren’t banning yak’s milk to “protect” their cultures. They don’t have to. Universal culture is high-entropy; it’s already in its ground state and will survive and spread without help. All other cultures are low-entropy; they survive only if someone keeps pushing energy into the system to protect them. It could be the Dalai Lama banning Coca-Cola. It could be the Académie Française removing English words from the language. It could be the secret police killing anyone who speaks out against Comrade Stalin. But if you want anything other than universal culture, you better either be surrounded by some VERY high mountains, or be willing to get your hands dirty.

Scott Alexander, Slate Star Codex, "How The West Was Won"

Cobblestone, your experience in an Amish or Mennonite community must have been lots different than mine so far.

Blogger Cobblestone July 26, 2021 10:15 PM  

Cobblestone, your experience in an Amish or Mennonite community must have been lots different than mine so far.

I don't think our experiences are different. You're just burying your head in the sand. If an Amish person forsakes the man-made rules and traditions of the Amish, then those same people will excommunicate him. I'm sure you've known this for a long time. Despite that, you insist that no no, they really don't like man-made rules! It's all just a big misunderstanding, don't you see?

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